Have seekers completely replaced BM's?

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary · December 2011

Doing FCC from 75-95 on my Sin, I never once saw a BM doing pulls. Barbs, almost exclusively, with some Seekers doing pulls.

Now, my BM is 94, and I'm finding it difficult to find squads. I have been able in the past to find squads because I was running FCC with some other people of like levels, but those people were, for the most part, higher level than myself. Most of them have surpassed the 100 level now, and now, even other friends are saying 'no' to me joining FCC? What I'm not understanding is why.

A typical Sin with +3 or +4 Hook and Thorns (which everyone knows, Sins will use until level 99, or beyond) which is at around 2.22 APS sparked is going to really out DD a BM at 2.86 sparked with a 2 socket +7 GV on, say, a boss. Oh, wait, it won't.

Seekers typically have 5-7k HP from what I've seen at level 90... My BM has 10k with the pills from the Shining Pills or w/e. I can self buff my PDef up to 26k, and my MDef up to 6k, I can do pulls, with a good cleric, quite long pulls. I've got AOE stuns, I've got 3 axes to specialize exactly what I need to do (Pan Gu's Giant Axe for magic pulls, Chaotic Implement for phys pulls, Gatherstorm for smaller pulls). I've got a Polearm with +2 range for harpies.

Why is it that nobody wants me for FCC? Or anything else?

Then I ask myself...

What is this character going to do endgame? Farm limestones? And I realize... I should just level up my Seeker and mail all of my armor over to that character, and delete my BM. >_>

Dralighte - Harshlands · December 2011

Uhm, in my opinion, they remplaced barbs

A bm should not pull, but yeah, you dont need a DG if you get a seeker + a sin (BP)

Seeker can be nice for nirvana if the squad "exploit" the bug, then idk... probably grind? lol

Okeano - Harshlands · December 2011

I started typing, but you know what, **** it. You do that.

Erryne - Sanctuary · December 2011

Just going to say that it be a waste to delete a bm that lv imho. Unless you're really hurting for space, then nevermind previous sentence. I kinda prefer the mix of int, aoe and superior pdef that bm get, even if lesser damage compared to sin, thus why I still sometime log on my baby bm to go tank his own BH51.

Fcc wise, I know full well a good bm can start pulling in it's 80, saw quite a few doing it. So I really don't mind if a barb, bm or seeker pull, as long as they know what they doing. Hell, I'd like to try in white voodoo, but no one as let me. Then again, lack of running speed(fixed with apo/smaller pull). XD

Seeker are awesome in RB though, great aoe DD who can take a beating/tank(easier with sin for BP). One I knew, managed to go up to stage 9 without a barb (couldn't get one), then it started getting ugly.

_blood_rain - Sanctuary · December 2011

The thought is ridiculous. A Bms job is different from a Seekers job.

StormHydra - Sanctuary · December 2011

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

Doing FCC from 75-95 on my Sin, I never once saw a BM doing pulls. Barbs, almost exclusively, with some Seekers doing pulls.

Now, my BM is 94, and I'm finding it difficult to find squads. I have been able in the past to find squads because I was running FCC with some other people of like levels, but those people were, for the most part, higher level than myself. Most of them have surpassed the 100 level now, and now, even other friends are saying 'no' to me joining FCC? What I'm not understanding is why.

A typical Sin with +3 or +4 Hook and Thorns (which everyone knows, Sins will use until level 99, or beyond) which is at around 2.22 APS sparked is going to really out DD a BM at 2.86 sparked with a 2 socket +7 GV on, say, a boss. Oh, wait, it won't.

Seekers typically have 5-7k HP from what I've seen at level 90... My BM has 10k with the pills from the Shining Pills or w/e. I can self buff my PDef up to 26k, and my MDef up to 6k, I can do pulls, with a good cleric, quite long pulls. I've got AOE stuns, I've got 3 axes to specialize exactly what I need to do (Pan Gu's Giant Axe for magic pulls, Chaotic Implement for phys pulls, Gatherstorm for smaller pulls). I've got a Polearm with +2 range for harpies.

Why is it that nobody wants me for FCC? Or anything else?

Then I ask myself...

What is this character going to do endgame? Farm limestones? And I realize... I should just level up my Seeker and mail all of my armor over to that character, and delete my BM. >_>

Short answer: No.

This game does not revolve around Frost.

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary · December 2011

Dralighte - Harshlands wrote: »

Uhm, in my opinion, they remplaced barbs

A bm should not pull, but yeah, you dont need a DG if you get a seeker + a sin (BP)

Seeker can be nice for nirvana if the squad "exploit" the bug, then idk... probably grind? lol

Yeah, well... I wanna FCC on my BM. Find a bunch of BM's that wanna FCC, a sin, and a cleric, then what? WC for 12 hours for a barb?

Erryne - Sanctuary wrote: »

Just going to say that it be a waste to delete a bm that lv imho. Unless you're really hurting for space, then nevermind previous sentence. I kinda prefer the mix of int, aoe and superior pdef that bm get, even if lesser damage compared to sin, thus why I still sometime log on my baby bm to go tank his own BH51.

Fcc wise, I know full well a good bm can start pulling in it's 80, saw quite a few doing it. So I really don't mind if a barb, bm or seeker pull, as long as they know what they doing. Hell, I'd like to try in white voodoo, but no one as let me. Then again, lack of running speed(fixed with apo/smaller pull). XD

Seeker are awesome in RB though, great aoe DD who can take a beating/tank(easier with sin for BP). One I knew, managed to go up to stage 9 without a barb (couldn't get one), then it started getting ugly.

Yeah, not hurting for space. If I was, I'd just stash my Nix over to my AA veno, then delete my HA veno.

I've been doing pulls since level 80. I've been out-dding most sub 95 sins since level 85. But that's only when I can get into FCC Squads. Everyone wants a seeker... Vortex doesn't oneshot mobs.

My Barb is for Gamma at this point. I've got 15.6k HP at 80, and I'm not gonna do anything to level up except gamma from now on on that character. Once I hit 85, it's FCC until 100 I guess.

My BM can solo most of FCC with just BP. Dreadindra, bubbley boss, and hands I'd need a second person... Or IG's for Bubbley boss. Well, IG requires 95...

_blood_rain - Sanctuary wrote: »

The thought is ridiculous. A Bms job is different from a Seekers job.

What is a Seekers job? To Vortex?

Demon Spark + HF does more damage than Vortex. Costs less mana too.

I've got 20 meter range. I think Seekers get a little more, but it's enough to kill harpies.

I've got like 2 whole weapons trees of AOE's, and at my level and gear, I'm going to way out DD a seeker unless they have Zerk swords. And on a single target, I'm'a be sparking to 2.86, or in one more level sparking to 3.33, and really, no Seeker at level 95 is gonna keep up with that DPS >_>

I've got more DPS, defenses, and HP than a typical seeker of my own level. So is Vortex really that awesome?

Okeano - Harshlands · December 2011

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

I've got more DPS, defenses, and HP than a typical seeker of my own level. So is Vortex really that awesome?

So then what's your problem? Some morons in some squad don't know that and don't what you? Another level and you can pretty much solo FC.

X_Rays - Sanctuary · December 2011

Ok, Seekers have better AoEs, but what about BMs? AoE, AoE stun, AoE Amp, good DPS...No squad should choose a seeker over a BM in any normal situations.

Erryne - Sanctuary · December 2011

Heh, trust me, a puller for me is a barb/bm/seeker, whoever say different for bm as meet crappy ones and/or as started playing after genesis expansion.

And previous two poster resumed the rest.

MageMERC - Harshlands · December 2011

I still see regular calls for BM's on Harshlands for doing FC, but often they ask for seeker/bm. I think all dd's shine if they play well. Take barbs for example. I wont embarass the guy but his name starts Van....., he's a barb that absolutely shreds FC and at 95 does the biggest pulls I've seen. Every now and then you see a sin, bm or seeker of the same level of ability, but not always. Having said that, an average squad will get through FC easy enough. As for Nirvana - dont ask me, I haven't got a clue.

SerenityCNB - Dreamweaver · December 2011

Huh? When I was doing fc runs, I commonly saw blademasters pulling, and didn't have any problem with it as long as they could pull. Heck. I even saw a wizard pull by accident. He died, but it was funny. Lol. (He followed the stealthed sin, thinking that he was following the pulling bm. He was wrong, then got the aggro. He made it to the room, so although it went horribly, it was still a good pull for a wizard. Lol. Good times. However, back on subject, I'm surprised that you're not able to find squads. Many squads that I was in were regularly, and actively looking for bm's to run fc, and if the bm could pull, even better. Surprised that its becoming hard for you to find a squad. I'll see if thats the case for me when I start running again. (on hiatus from fc until I finish the level 100 celestial sage final cultivation, so I can say bye bye to cult, and hello to third fairy. Lol.)

Aasaf - Sanctuary · December 2011

I don't know about others, since i don't fcc anymore until i can solo it. I am lvl 101, my hp unbuffed is 6.3k, 14.8k phy def (bell+demon phy marrow), 7.1 mag def (bell+demon mag marrow). I am 2.86 base, and 4 aps sparked. I don't have a cool genie like yours, so i can only hf or spark, not both. At your lvl i was 1.43 aps non sparked. My gear and weapon had +2~+3 refines on tt90 set. Even now it is +2~3. In my 90's i could not pull the hallways without cleric and mystic buffs. In my 100's that story has not changed. I can do on length of the corridor, but if i do a full pull, i usually die. Other bms i have run with were worse than me.

I can pull half the mob room, my speed skills give out and genie does not recover fast enough with only 0~3 hits landing. On the magic mobs, i do one group at a time.

In my eyes, your lvl 94 bm is far superior than my 101 bm. If i had a choice, i would kick myself out of the squad to give you space.

In deltas I can not tank, that is because of my hp, but i would happily let barbs, seekers tank. In endgame it depends on your refine on the weapon. I haven't seen the numbers, but 5aps, +12 g15 claws should be able to keep agro from sins (just trip the sins when they are dashing towards the boss).

Often times i have been asked by friends to come help in fcc because their "tank" either leaves after a death or can not handle the job. Next time i can recommend your name b:chuckle.

In all seriousness, there is nothing wrong with your bm, lvl up to 95, get deicides, and the world will change, you might even be able to solo fcc, or do it with 1~3 friends.

Itori - Lost City · December 2011

Erm. No.

You'd have to kinda suck to not be able to get into frost
the things that have easiet time getting a squad are sins, bms, seekers clerics and barbs.
Though, while leveling my veno 8x-9x I almost always had a barb pull.
and now leveling my 9x barb obviously I always pull.
A BM is a welcome addition because of dragons, aoe stun, at 95+ tanking bosses, pdef buff, and so on.
I guess in this day in age people are used to seekers pulling, I'm not... I've always had a barb/been the barb.
There are only two things I want when I frost on my barb.
1. Bloodpaint
2. a BM

(wait forever for a barb? try waiting forever for the people unwilling to run clericless b:laugh)

Alasen - Heavens Tear · December 2011

to all the poeple saying vortex don't out dmg a BM.... i've never seen a BM pull one of the big mob groups and kill everything in like 2 secs.

also a seeker can just put up vortex then not pay attention cept to keep it up. If u yank aggro just run the mobs into vortex. With a BM u have to hope they dont' suck, and actually paying attention, and realize they need to aoe **** off you lol.... if their aoe's are even rdy

course there's seekers that suck too...... like the 95! one i had today or yesterday that died so many times on reg mob pulls...............

Ladyhellcatq - Dreamweaver · December 2011

Only thing a seeker does that is superior to a bm in lower levels is essentially solo the entire big room. Typically I wouldnt say a seeker replaces a bm though cause hf helps them do it.
Pulling is mostly about character run speed than anything. Bms do it well enough.

At lv 100 my free to play bm with really good gear out damages g13+10 sins in coa so I feel pretty good about bm single target damage. Sins are defnitely better, however bms are good enough an they have way better def. In fact once people get used to the idea of making recast 8 instead of crappy tt99, I believe bms will outshine sins as the soloing class.

laloner · December 2011

I think the real issue is that seeker vortex is replacing archer barrage of arrows.

PriestRain - Raging Tide · December 2011

I suggest that u don't delete ur BM, and if u cant find squads..then look for fc99+ sqds, they should take u... Well i know i would. b:chuckle b:victory

Michael - Harshlands · December 2011

All depends on the skill of the player doing the instance regardless of class, a bm/barb/seeker any of these can effectively pull and tank in FC, for the big room arguably the BM and seeker are the best 2 (seeker can solo the whole exp room from level 80 if he has BP thats pulling the whole room and vortexing it while the rest of the squad has a nap), BMs cant solo the room at 80 but they can easily pull it and effortlessly amp the damage and stun giving the other DDs plenty of time to clear the mobs.

If you know what you need to do and time your skills accordingly you would be surprised at how much you can do with any class.

Inflictia - Raging Tide · December 2011

Simple...

Seekers have base MORE defence lvl, they have bloodpaint + Vortex that heals you every hit you do.
+ Pro seekers with expel can do pulls without even take damage. That's why seekers are better to pull in FCC then BMs

hiddenmonkey · December 2011

Nothing can replace a well timed HF... Too bad BM's don't bother learned when the right time is.

As a hard hitting sin that uses powerdash for more damage a BM firing off HF before sparking even finishes going off is just a pointless use of the skill.

OIdpop - Heavens Tear · December 2011

IMO seekers havent replaced a damn thing.Only thing to me if i invite a seeker to my party is.

A.Maybe get a few measley attack of def buff..it dont help much.

B.Seeker can throw on some debuff or some jive on the boss...but you still playing a man down cause they just plain out blow on dps..dph..or dpwhogivesaflyingyouknowwut.

C.Either a guildmate or anotehr seeker so they wont complain about not feeling useful or never getting invited to a party or something.

other than that they basicly a mob rounder upper with a vortex..bout it.If i continue on my seeker it prob either be used to get wraithgate cape or if i get it to 100,maybe a key collector and a bh jobber.b:bye

ApocaIypto - Dreamweaver · December 2011

meh...both seekers and bms can pull, none is better. bms have more speed skills, and phy/mag marrow, seekers have def lvl...

vortex is the best zhen skill, but still, a seeker cant do bm job (aka stun and hf) and bm does more damages on bosses...

none is better, they dont have the same skills, dont have the same skills

Dralighte - Harshlands · December 2011

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

Yeah, well... I wanna FCC on my BM. Find a bunch of BM's that wanna FCC, a sin, and a cleric, then what? WC for 12 hours for a barb?

Yeah, not hurting for space. If I was, I'd just stash my Nix over to my AA veno, then delete my HA veno.

I've been doing pulls since level 80. I've been out-dding most sub 95 sins since level 85. But that's only when I can get into FCC Squads. Everyone wants a seeker... Vortex doesn't oneshot mobs.

My Barb is for Gamma at this point. I've got 15.6k HP at 80, and I'm not gonna do anything to level up except gamma from now on on that character. Once I hit 85, it's FCC until 100 I guess.

My BM can solo most of FCC with just BP. Dreadindra, bubbley boss, and hands I'd need a second person... Or IG's for Bubbley boss. Well, IG requires 95...

What is a Seekers job? To Vortex?

Demon Spark + HF does more damage than Vortex. Costs less mana too.

I've got 20 meter range. I think Seekers get a little more, but it's enough to kill harpies.

I've got like 2 whole weapons trees of AOE's, and at my level and gear, I'm going to way out DD a seeker unless they have Zerk swords. And on a single target, I'm'a be sparking to 2.86, or in one more level sparking to 3.33, and really, no Seeker at level 95 is gonna keep up with that DPS >_>

I've got more DPS, defenses, and HP than a typical seeker of my own level. So is Vortex really that awesome?

Ask for a seeker and/or a barb. b:thanks
If you're sure to tank it, find a mystic or an another cleric

Alsiadorra - Sanctuary · December 2011

_blood_rain - Sanctuary wrote: »

The thought is ridiculous. A Bms job is different from a Seekers job.

Yeah. We can't stun better than them.

And no we aren't replacing them. What you seeing is how many seekers they are compared to BMs.

But as we can't get higher than 2.22aps and BMs can, BMs have far more uses.

snufalufaguss · December 2011

It is no doubt that a seeker reigns supreme when it comes to zhen, but a Bm can do fine with all the pulls and mobs + they can make bosses go much faster. In this situation, Bm wins as long as they know how to play.

The biggest benefit to a seeker is you can just press the easy button (aka Vortex) and kill mobs in a zhen. It is almost a guarantee success in a pull unlike a Bm where if you suck you or your squad mates can get killed.

Kerona - Sanctuary · December 2011

Seekers are better at pulls *if they have bloodpaint*.

Seekers can solo Delta with a sin buffer, that's how much better they are at aoeing mobs. Once Yata is up, if they have bp, they are more or less invincible unless the mobs stun and the seeker didn't pop a vac.

A seeker without bp still massively out DDs a bm in AoE, and will probably massively out dd most of the squad + hf as well. The reason for this is that Yata hits every 1.5 seconds. Most casters take 2 seconds or more to channel/cast a spell. BMs can get off an Axe AoE every 2-2.5 seconds. Yata is basically the APS of AoEs, if that's how you want to view it. Only really Psychics spamming aoes can out aggro some vortexes (depending on wep refine and att level of both).

As for your sin question...
http://pwcalc.com/24ee1645956e2a40 random 2.86 BM +7 2 Socket GV
Unbuffed Phys Att Sparked: 8980-9431 (26972 max dam per sec)
Crit Rate: 19%
http://pwcalc.com/26da4cfac849d98b random 2.2 Sin Hook Thorn+3
Unbuffed Phys Att Sparked: 7591-9462 (20816 max dam per sec)
Crit Rate: 30%

Yes, the 2.22 hook Thorn Sin will out DD you, by quite a lot, due to crit rate, even when you are both sparked. At +4, the sin beats you in sheer damage alone. Even more so, since with their two chi skills they will almost, if not defacto, perma spark and you will not.

All this said, I watched my BF get into no less than five FCCs 90-99 on his BM just today and complete them. Some of these FCCs had multiple BMs, and a few had BMs who knew what they were doing b:shocked So I question the validity of your argument, basically. The FCCs are out there, you're either not looking hard enough, or long enough.

Also, FCC is not an "end game instance". It's the instance you use to GET to endgame. BMs are much more needed in farming instances than Seekers, period. Almost none of the end game instances involve mob pulls. Most Seekers hit 100 go "now what", and reroll a bm when they get rejected from everything like most casters do. They're wanted in Delta.... their yata gets sealed in Metal. So... Yeah. Delta.

Asgardeus - Sanctuary · December 2011

_blood_rain - Sanctuary wrote: »

The thought is ridiculous. A Bms job is different from a Seekers job.

This. So much this.
A seekers job is to pull or aoe tank mobs. A bm is a crowd controller, stuns and hf should be your priority.
Saying seekers can replace bms is such a **** statement =_=

And I dunno. I always found finding FCCs on my bm easy. So maybe they just don't like you? lol

Hexalot - Dreamweaver · December 2011

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

Doing FCC from 75-95 on my Sin, I never once saw a BM doing pulls. Barbs, almost exclusively, with some Seekers doing pulls.

Now, my BM is 94, and I'm finding it difficult to find squads. I have been able in the past to find squads because I was running FCC with some other people of like levels, but those people were, for the most part, higher level than myself. Most of them have surpassed the 100 level now, and now, even other friends are saying 'no' to me joining FCC? What I'm not understanding is why.

A typical Sin with +3 or +4 Hook and Thorns (which everyone knows, Sins will use until level 99, or beyond) which is at around 2.22 APS sparked is going to really out DD a BM at 2.86 sparked with a 2 socket +7 GV on, say, a boss. Oh, wait, it won't.

Seekers typically have 5-7k HP from what I've seen at level 90... My BM has 10k with the pills from the Shining Pills or w/e. I can self buff my PDef up to 26k, and my MDef up to 6k, I can do pulls, with a good cleric, quite long pulls. I've got AOE stuns, I've got 3 axes to specialize exactly what I need to do (Pan Gu's Giant Axe for magic pulls, Chaotic Implement for phys pulls, Gatherstorm for smaller pulls). I've got a Polearm with +2 range for harpies.

Why is it that nobody wants me for FCC? Or anything else?

Then I ask myself...

What is this character going to do endgame? Farm limestones? And I realize... I should just level up my Seeker and mail all of my armor over to that character, and delete my BM. >_>

After reading this, I've come to the conclusion that either:

(a) you're trolling.

(b) you're a fail BM and the whole server knows this thus avoiding you like the plague.

Neither class can or will replace the other and in FCC they actually compliment each other very well with with the combo of aoe stun, HF and vortex in unison. Plus, either class can take over the pulling duties very well if no Barb is present.

And as for end game... BMs are probably the most wanted class period. No other class is as equally wanted in everything from Delta to Nirvana to TW. Really... whoever heard of a BM being refused one of the 6 squad slots in just about ANY instance in PWI ???

MrMelvin - Heavens Tear · December 2011

I've been through this so many times but with my wizard and mystic.

My wizard is 100. Leveling through 90-100 was painful since that was around the time that the stupid fish came out and all people wanted was either psys or sins. I overcame this problem by starting my own squads and whilst in FF proving to people that wizards are actually amazing when someone plays them correctly, I got many friend requests after each FF and each time I signed in I received many whispers asking if I wanted to FF.

My current main, my mystic is experiencing the same problem currently (and with stupid goons nerf no one goes past big room and its slowing leveling down even more!!) Often see WC's for DDs and I put myself forward and often get the reply "Mystics are healers lol noob" so rarely get taken into squads but when I reply to squads needing a healer I always get quizzed to see if I can heal properly.

My answer, make your own squads then people can't turn you down, prove that you are awesome as a BM and know your toon then there shouldn't be an issue. Or move to HT, we are always looking for BMs...

Okeano - Harshlands · December 2011

Alasen - Heavens Tear wrote: »

to all the poeple saying vortex don't out dmg a BM.... i've never seen a BM pull one of the big mob groups and kill everything in like 2 secs.

No one ever said that BM will do more damage than Seeker's Vortex. But with HF, the party is going to kill the mobs just as fast if not faster than having a Seeker in squad. Last time I checked, FC is a squad thing under 100. BM also helps making the boss go by faster with amp and their own higher DPS than Seeker. Bosses are what take up most of the time in FC anyways, and that's why you see people want multiple Sins in squad even though that means less AoE damage.

Inflictia - Raging Tide wrote: »

Simple...

Seekers have base MORE defence lvl, they have bloodpaint + Vortex that heals you every hit you do.
+ Pro seekers with expel can do pulls without even take damage. That's why seekers are better to pull in FCC then BMs

This coming from a BM? Uh.... and BM have Marrows? But I guess you've never heard of those and that's why you think Seekers take less damage than you. BP + any AoE heals you fully, so I don't see what's the point of saying "bloodpaint + Vortex that heals you". If you stand there like an idiot at the end of the pull, yeah you are going to get rolled.

Guess what, I can do pulls without taking any damage too, it's called Domain + Roar + Leap + Bolt = 15 seconds of GG.

Have seekers completely replaced BM's?

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