A fix for the TW multiple gank restrictions

The best faction deserve to get the map, why must there be handicap? We worked our way there y'know

TwinDreams - Harshlands wrote: »

The best faction deserve to get the map, why must there be handicap? We worked our way there y'know

The only handicap that exists is the handicap on the number of simultaneous attacks. Realistically no matter how many factions attempt to attack together, you only have to face 3 at a time.. and not necessarily the three strongest. The current design gives no added difficulty with defending large amounts of territory.

Attackers are further limited in the number of people they can send since each attacker can field only 80 of their 200 members to their TW while defenders can field much more than 80 at once across the 3 TWs.

ReMakaBo - Archosaur wrote: »

Considering most map dominate factions are compiled of the most OP of the server, no they didn't actually "work" at it. They just reap the benefit of people being brainless and following the heard of sheep--

Sorry, but VaIhaIIa (Valhalla, lul) on Harshlands blows that comment so far out of the water its not funny. Come look, youll **** yourself.

packs have been on sale for over 2 years, rank 9 has been on sale for over a year, orbs have dropped in price. factions only hold 200 people, the number of TW geared people could not fit in 3 factions let alone 1.

TW takes more than gear, although its become more and more gear based, gear alone will not win a tw for anyone. you need teamwork, organization, motivation, and know-how.

if you are missing the gear, work on it, and recruit more heavily
if you are missing the teamwork, do more activites with groups
if you are missing organization, do your homework
if you are missing motivation, rally your troops
if you are missing know-how read up

the solution to losing isnt crying about it, and running to mommy to fix it for you.

SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »

packs have been on sale for over 2 years, rank 9 has been on sale for over a year, orbs have dropped in price. factions only hold 200 people, the number of TW geared people could not fit in 3 factions let alone 1.

TW takes more than gear, although its become more and more gear based, gear alone will not win a tw for anyone. you need teamwork, organization, motivation, and know-how.

if you are missing the gear, work on it, and recruit more heavily
if you are missing the teamwork, do more activites with groups
if you are missing organization, do your homework
if you are missing motivation, rally your troops
if you are missing know-how read up

the solution to losing isnt crying about it, and running to mommy to fix it for you.

qft

It would hardly make the game more entertaining to introduce rules to allow unskilled, low population factions to take land from well organized, motivated people.

Every faction has some OP people, and it doesn't take a full faction of r9 to dominate the map. The biggest TW faction isn't necessarily just a group of the most OP players (my faction, for example, has denied tons of r9 +12 players applications because the people behind the pixels weren't compatible with our members).

Gear:
If you feel you are losing due to gear differences, go farm together.
I don't know how many times I've seen factions with tons of OP sins/bms that basically stay to themselves farming instances for coin all day, then complain that they lose in TW and blame their lower geared members. Sins and BMs are the best pve farmers and the worst mass pvp characters, thinking you're gonna build an epic TW faction without helping your clerics/DDs/barbs get their gear is a joke; expecting them to farm on their own or cash or roll a sin/bm alt will just alienate them. Make your members feel like part of the faction, not your personal followers/fans, or something else beneath you. If you are play OP aps character, consider making an alt that's useful in TW and spending some of your time on it's gear.

There's a thread on DW server forums speculating on ways to beat my faction. It's rather entertaining. There's a lot of theories and wanking there.

Teamwork:
Play together all week. Push your limits as a team and individually. Do spawn point deltas, full warsongs, 9 trials runs, etc. If you are the OP player in your faction, form squads of lower geared players to try to pk you, a squad of modestly geared players can drop the most OP monster with the right co-ordination, but in TWs I see many who just don't know how, they aren't gonna learn in the heat of battle either, go practice. Do stuff that will teach you how to manage charm ticks as a tool, how to use apothecary potions at the right times, when to use genie skills to save yourself or your squad.

For example, yesterday did a wave 3 delta bh on spawn point with a random bm (6k hp) and cleric (4k hp) from world chat and a veno, archer, myself and another psy from our faction. The cleric had to run afk for some reason at wave 2-4 and got killed by archer mobs in 2-5 before my expel kicked in (**** you, crappy ping!). We cleared the wave and held the real boss till she got back but the bm killed the boss before she could rebuff or get chi, causing 3-1 to drop on us immediately. We didn't even discuss it (or have time to), we just did our normal routine of chaining AD, bubble of life, expel and apoths and cruised through without a problem. No way we could have done that without a lot of practice. Like I said above: Go practice.

The team that plays together all week will generally beat the team that only sees each other for an hour a week at game time.


Organization:
Have your squads set well before TW starts. Have a basic battle plan, and a backup plan if that fails; make sure your squad leaders all know the plans and their roles. Squad leaders should be permanent, and know their squad's roles. There's a ton of TW videos on youtube, go watch them, see what the winners do right and what the losers do wrong.


Motivation:
This is the hardest one. People seem to be more and more of the mindset that "winning" should simply be handed to them without any real effort. Much of what is wrong with the "losing" factions is that people just give up when they don't "win". People need to quit wanking about TW pay making factions rich also, TW pay is such a small amount once it's divided between a faction active enough to hold lands that it is silly. You can make as much or more in an hour of doing damn near anything at level 100. If your main goal of TW is to get paid just give up now. News flash: TW COSTS MORE THAN IT EARNS (for most people), either do it for fun and realize you may have to farm extra to do it well, or just don't bother. I see a lot of people coming into TW without any apoth or even charms, why even go like that? Don't complain about dying easily if you haven't taken all the available measures to prevent it. "TW is gonna burn my charm anyway, and we'll probably lose, so why even get a charm?" <---- now you are sure to lose, in your mind you've already lost


The most active factions don't even get close to 200 online for TW (on my server anyway), dividing them into more than 3 wars would just be making it too easy. Another thing is that as long as they start 3 minutes apart (how they currently do) an experienced faction could theoretically beat infinite opponents, so it wouldn't help anyway. I'd explain this more, but I want to leave some things for other factions to learn.......

Sidwinder - Heavens Tear wrote: »

TW is just a joke anymore gone are the days a high lvl was considered an 8x and even a 6x or 7x player could make a difference in TW. Now it's who can FF to 100+ the fastest and who spends the most money on this game.

8x hasn't been "high level" for years. Before hyper exp even came out 6x-7x's were just one-shot fodder for all the players with lunar **** from packs. I know because I played a squishy 7x cleric in TW, and guess what? I learned how to adapt to mot having the best gear instead of crying about the ones who did. Now that everyone is 100+ from hypering heads, it's still a game of skill vs. skill (where gear/money gives a distinct advantage of course). I could name a couple factions built by heavy spenders specifically for TW that failed horribly due to lack of skill and/or decent-geared second-line players. Not that someone who's pet peeve is anyone over lvl 100 would even listen anyway.

The main flaw is that a faction is capable of holding land disproportionate to their strength.

If a faction is say, twice as powerful as any other faction on the server. They don't have just twice as much land. They can take the entire map. There is no such thing as spreading yourself too thin.

If a large number of smaller factions band together and represent a collective stronger force than the dominant guild they still can't win because the system breaks up their strong attack into smaller manageable pieces.

Ironically the more attackers there are the easier it is to defend because the greater the likelihood that the strongest attackers will not be attacking together.

The best strategy would be for the strongest members of those attackers to leave their factions and band together into a single faction. This hurts small faction recruitment a lot.


Really though it doesn't make much sense to be able to hold 40 lands if you aren't capable of defending more than 3 at a time. The attacker handicap should be raised or removed entirely.

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Really though it doesn't make much sense to be able to hold 40 lands if you aren't capable of defending more than 3 at a time. The attacker handicap should be raised or removed entirely.

In a theoretical or mathematical way you are right.

If viewed as a tactical war simulation, however, it isn't that simple. In real life it doesn't take anywhere near equal forces to dominate multiple opponents, it just takes better organization and forces stronger than any single opponent. The attacker handicap was meant to simulate this effect, from what I can see. It's a very flawed system, but removing the restriction on attacker number would simply have the effect of splitting factions into smaller groups each intent on holding a couple lands. These would primarily be formed by the current landholding factions anyway, so it would be a redistribution of sorts, but mostly among the same people.

The other issue here is that besides a free teleport and a negligible amount of coin there is no real benefit to owning land. Sure, apoths, you think the little underdog factions will get any of the key apoth lands? Nope, they'll all be taken quickly by the alt factions of the current landholders. Besides, any small group capable of TW can run LG trophy mode for all the apoth you could want.

Attackers and defenders fight the same battle with the same goals. In city attacks, the attackers even get the advantage of more catapults than defenders. As a player in a big landholding faction, I have to say that holding land is not the fun part. The fight is the fun part, win or lose (and yes, I have lost, plenty, that's how you learn, if you don't give up anyway). If you think having a couple faction lands will make the game so much more fun for you, I'd advise a few deep breaths and a reality check.

What it comes down to, and always will no matter the rules, is people's motivation. If the top 10 geared/skilled players from all the tiny factions complaining about unfair TW moved their mains (I know you all have alts, lol, leave them in your home faction, many of us do.....) to one of the bigger factions a 3 way gank would be plenty to drop any TW monster. If you don't want to win bad enough to do that, you don't want to win. Not wanting to win is fine, it's a game to be played however you wish, but please stop asking for everything to be handed to you.

How different would the world be now if the various tribes of Europe or the Americas had banded together against their invaders?

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Reflecting on the same real life. It make no sense to allow the same exact enemy to attack you week after week. If we are really going with real life comparisons. The loser shall forfeit their gears and characters to the winner.

More like you keep your character and gear but forfeit your money and have to fight in the army of your conqueror or they will kill your family......
Not many people would play that game though.......

sleepcat wrote: »

I have a few questions that I am just curious about if you do not mind answering them. Sure, I'll try.

If TW pay is of no benefit to the top faction, and rolling unskilled, low population factions is not fun nor challenging, then how is it less entertaining to introduce rules to allow unskilled, low population factions to take land from well organized, motivated factions?
If such rules could be created I would be in favor of them. However, I believe that lifting the attack per time restriction would not have this result. As I said before, the top faction(s) would just split into appropriate numbers and create alt factions which would still control most of the map using their experience and organization to continue dominating, if perhaps not in the same name. If it was implemented with the current 3 minute space between the start of each fight it would have no effect anyway, unless each faction could field 80 well geared/skilled players, but then they could do it with 3 factions as it is......

You do not have fun TWing against unskilled factions so does it makes any difference to you whether they have land or not?
Nope. If you look at the TW map on Dreamweaver you'll see some small factions with land. As we don't attack anyone who doesn't at least have a chance against us there are a couple factions that are actually de-facto protected by us. Another advantage of being in a small faction without land is you can attack anyone (except cities). The small factions holding 1-2 lands are locked into position, only able to attack their neighbors, if their neighbors happen to be stronger there isn't much to do. I'm not concerned about them owning land, I'm just pointing out that it may be more fun not to, if your guild is small.

Because you claim territory pay is essentially worthless, is it a problem if the top faction held less territories?
Nope. Come take some. But we aren't giving them for free. It took a lot of work to get this good. Anyone who is willing to put in as much effort can have an equal chance. I see TW like a sport, if a sports team is winning should the rules be changed to allow more players on the other teams or lower the number the winners can field? Especially since the rules already favor attackers..... 240 vs 200 (max) and 6 catapults vs. 4 (city attack)..... defenders are already at a tactical disadvantage, especially since no faction can show 200 at a time realistically (130 is about our max attendance). The problem isn't with the system, it's the people. There are easily enough well geared players to make 3 factions with a weekend attendance over 80 people, they just make excuses for not joining forces and playing the game how it was designed. What's more likely, a complete restructuring of TW or a few faction mergers?

Is it true that the reputation factions have in the society of their servers supersede the value of exclusiveness that holding land does?
Absolutely. Our faction strives to maintain the highest standards of conduct possible. Some people hate us simply because we dominate in TW, a few people have personal issues with individuals in faction, but such is life. This is the reason we recruit good people first, gear is a secondary concern at most. I believe that organization and motivation are the key factors in winning, more so than gear anyway. The major flaw in one of our opponents was their reputation, a few of their officers went out of their way to be jerks to everyone on the server and eventually they lost most of their members and all but one land despite the epic gear they had (and bragged about constantly).

Thank you in advance.
You're welcome, remember it's just my opinion and not meant to insult or degrade anyone or their ideas.

Answers.

The best thing I could think of, I suggested to PW years ago.

When the map is 80% owned by one faction, reset the map. Either that or open heaven/hell/past map territories for TW and create a 4th tier faction with a limit of 300 people and only let 4th lvl factions TW in these maps, leaving the regular world map for the lower population factions. (I doubt the game has the population to support this anymore, but it might have if they had implemented this idea 2 years ago when I suggested it.

Zarni - Dreamweaver wrote: »

qft



8x hasn't been "high level" for years. Before hyper exp even came out 6x-7x's were just one-shot fodder for all the players with lunar **** from packs. I know because I played a squishy 7x cleric in TW, and guess what? I learned how to adapt to mot having the best gear instead of crying about the ones who did. Now that everyone is 100+ from hypering heads, it's still a game of skill vs. skill (where gear/money gives a distinct advantage of course). I could name a couple factions built by heavy spenders specifically for TW that failed horribly due to lack of skill and/or decent-geared second-line players. Not that someone who's pet peeve is anyone over lvl 100 would even listen anyway.

Yeah I know it hasn't been high lvl for years but back then TW was fun you didn't have to be 100+ to participate and a lot of the op gear didn't exist yet. I'm talking a long time ago like back in late 2008 early 2009 before even genies existed.

What people say makes sense, but why is this thread popping up now?

Find me a faction that can consistently field more than 100, let alone 180, and you might have a point. Gone are the days of "one faction having high levels and beating down 80 people with 40."

Now, everyone can be lvl 100, everyone can at least have rank8 + 10, and I don't see how you can defend 3 lands simultaneously.

I really don't see one faction taking over the map at this point, unless your server has no activity whatsoever.

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

What people say makes sense, but why is this thread popping up now?

Find me a faction that can consistently field more than 100, let alone 180, and you might have a point. Gone are the days of "one faction having high levels and beating down 80 people with 40."

Now, everyone can be lvl 100, everyone can at least have rank8 + 10, and I don't see how you can defend 3 lands simultaneously.

I really don't see one faction taking over the map at this point, unless your server has no activity whatsoever.

while the smaller factions get r8, the top factions have constant influx of full r9+10 registering into their factions. 40 r9 with free guild pots and charms funded by the weekly tw rewards and guild base equipments like arrows and buff can beat 80 non-r9 without any of those

And if your top faction cant beat 2v1 or 3v1? Its all cool, simply ask some nab faction to bid on you and there you go, their combo broken. Or you dont even have to do it. Nab factions would automatically "join in the fun" when they see 2-3 factions bidding on one. This is also another flaw in the TW system. Fake bidding (or just being lame) actually breaks an organised strategy.

Idk about your servers But HL is headed towards a one colored map. They have the most r9s vs the rest of the server which isnt geared as good

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

It depends on server population. Not all of the servers are as well populated or competitive as Sanc. Even sanc's population only supports about 100 - 120 highly refined R9 players who TW. Each of those players are worth like 7 or 8 times an average R8 player.

This isn't counterstrike where there is an auto team button that adds players to the losing team. The game gives you honestly no incentive to join a losing team or to help out smaller factions. The best strategy is to join the winning side.

Point.

But, counterpoint...

What happens when the winning side isn't accepting applications? You have to settle for the second best, or go lone ranger (maybe why there's so many random level 3 factions now?).

An R9+10 might be "worth several R8" players, but then you run into idiots who have the gear and the characters, but have no clue at all what they are doing. Look at Roid, in a 1v1, he can faceroll just about anyone, even while wearing OHT gear (yeah, yeah, duels don't count, blah blah, talk to the hand, whatever), but in a TW, with R9 and refines, he's gonna be worth several R9+10 people who have no clue what 'this button' and 'that button' do, how to get out of a stunlock, how TO stunlock, etc.

Gear isn't the absolute end of the game. Having the skill to use it takes time.

Kinda like in CoD, the original. I used to play on a 40v40 server, and got eaten alive. So, I joined a rifles only server, and kept at it until I became a crack shot with ironsights. Then a Sniper rifle only server, pistols only server, etc. Then I went back to the 40v40 server, and was suddenly #1 on the rankings, sometimes had 800 kills where #2 had 200 or less. That's really nolifing, but... What else do you do with no job during summer break during high school? b:chuckle

Just cause you paid the server admin so you could have 10 blast packs on game start doesn't mean you have a clue how to use them. >_>

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

You must be thinking of a different game. This game doesn't require much skill and is all about gear.

Lol QFT

Well for sure Dreamweaver is headed to a one faction map. There are many reasons I'm sure.

I have twed against the Regenesis faction (the leading one) and frankly its no fun and really will choose not to, however if I could tw against lesser factions-maybe the number 2-6 factions..well that would be more equal an much more fun.

The problem is equal factions fighting each other is not possible because one single faction is allowed to take the entire map an we must all fight them or nobody...Great way to make a fun mass pvp system