Nostalgic Wiz :/

prof · October 2011

the real formula for attack levels is:

(attack*.attack level)+attack

this means, it's a buff to your attack, not a direct amp. you could test this with sage veno amp(+30% damage). attack something with it amped several times without a jones blessing, then equip it and attack without amp.

you'll notice quite a difference.

Sun_Burn - Lost City · October 2011

I dont understand what ur saying prof, i got the impression you think arma isnt affected by attack levels. It is. Everything is.

To reduce a full r9's barb's perdition it makes sense to have more defense levels, because their perdition will hit significantly harder if you only have physical defense + hp with no defense levels.

prof · October 2011

so to survive an attack that deals physical damage that's based on hp, not attack, you:
sacrifice pdef
sacrifice hp
increase defense level
ignore that attack levels buff your attack, not give you some direct amp

i see.. i'll be sure to remember this.

think i'm done with these forums again, y'all are killing it for me b:sad

Sun_Burn - Lost City · October 2011

prof wrote: »

so to survive an attack that deals physical damage that's based on hp, not attack, you:
sacrifice pdef
sacrifice hp
increase defense level
ignore that attack levels buff your attack, not give you some direct amp

i see.. i'll be sure to remember this.

think i'm done with these forums again, y'all are killing it for me b:sad

i'm still not understanding if you either agree that attack lvls increase perd or disagree, u seem to be avoiding that.

but anyways, I tested it, attack levels increases perdition damage. Not sure why you are arguing against it. Attack levels work the same way EP does, its 1% more damage per attack level you have over the opponents defense level. so if a barb has 100 attack lvls vs someone with no defense lvls. he will do 100% more damage compared to if he had no attack levels.

Attack levels are amps, it doesnt effect your magic attack/physical attack, it effects raw damage after everything is calculated, like extreme poison.

Adroit - Lost City · October 2011

prof wrote: »

the real formula for attack levels is:

(attack*.attack level)+attack

this means, it's a buff to your attack, not a direct amp. you could test this with sage veno amp(+30% damage). attack something with it amped several times without a jones blessing, then equip it and attack without amp.

you'll notice quite a difference.

If you think attack levels only add on physical/magical attack, you are wrong. Simple to test.. take off anything that gives attack level.. pyrogram some target, put on a jones blessing and do it again. With jones blessing you'll do 1.3 times the damage as you did w/o the 30 atk levels from jones blessing. (you may want to take off your weapon so you don't have that range in damage.. but you could do the test several times with a weapon equipped and average the results).

Joshcja - Sanctuary · October 2011

Got on my barb, armaed normaly w/o jones bless

Put on jones and did 30% more damage with arma

Your an idiot

Sun_Burn - Lost City · October 2011

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

If you think attack levels only add on physical/magical attack, you are wrong. Simple to test.. take off anything that gives attack level.. pyrogram some target, put on a jones blessing and do it again. With jones blessing you'll do 1.3 times the damage as you did w/o the 30 atk levels from jones blessing. (you may want to take off your weapon so you don't have that range in damage.. but you could do the test several times with a weapon equipped and average the results).

I think profs issue/confusion is from attacks like perdition that affects hp and not your attack.

Simple for a wizard to test tho, I just fiddled around like you suggested, only i used emberstorm (exactly the same type of attack like perdition). I did 30% more damage with jones blessing

Vital_Slash - Sanctuary · October 2011

Lol i didnt Notice this suddenly got so enveloped in Attack lvls b:shocked oh well... ill join in... Atk Lvl = Current Attack + 30% of it? No idea rly...

Sun_Burn - Lost City · October 2011

Vital_Slash - Sanctuary wrote: »

Lol i didnt Notice this suddenly got so enveloped in Attack lvls b:shocked oh well... ill join in... Atk Lvl = Current Attack + 30% of it? No idea rly...

Sun_Burn - Lost City wrote: »

its 1% more damage per attack level you have over the opponents defense level.

^ thats how attack lvls work.

DaKillanator - Raging Tide · October 2011

prof has been trolled and out logic'd...again

guess it's time for him to run off again b:victory

Questro - Lost City · October 2011

prof wrote: »

yes, actually. I only tried 8 jades, not a full set. I've been using pdef/vit forever(find my old pwcalc's of my mage in myen), and I don't consider hp stones end-game.

in my experience? you want a lot of pdef, while maintaining high mdef and moderate hp.

http://pwcalc.com/1d247069bbc2c4fc - playing with build possibilities again as I finish my mage, I came up with this(the adorn is nostalgic, qq)

what do mages die to with a +10 set? other mages? venos? psy's and mystics? probably not, who attacks the person with high mdef? sins, archers, good bm's and maybe a lucky zerk/crit armageddon? qq i had gof.

Think about it if u got 5k hp will u use vit or jade? obviously vit.
Now if u got 11k + hp what kinda shard will u use? jade ofc

The shard look okay on gear and ur refinement, it make sense cuz ur hp is not high enough. Vit/garnet might seem to better than jade but what happen if someone got 10k hp or higher. Will vit or garnet be better then? No, by then, jade will provide more survival.
You havent experience this yet, i m sure if u do, you will change ur mind.

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur · October 2011

prof wrote: »

the real formula for attack levels is:

(attack*.attack level)+attack

You all should try to be nice to someone for whom english is probably a second language.

It seems to me prof has it right in the quote above (the ".attack level" to be written as ".01" for one attack level, and "0.10" for ten attack levels), so the fact that he can't understand you, and you can't understand him, is hardly him being "out-logic'ed" - as if that was a word.

And everyone is soooo keen on referring to "logic" - I think it must be what dumb people say to make them sound smart.

For my 2 cents, we have a +10 wizard with full jades and +9 rank 9 weapon with like 102 attack levels or w/e I have scratches him unless its a BT crit or maybe a debuffed bids crit.

And there seems to be a big difference between 8 jades and 24 jades, not surprisingly.

HarmOwnie - Dreamweaver · October 2011

Well the whole discussion about the shards is only a consequence of the main problem namely the role of the wizardclass as a whole.

The wizard as in many other games too is a range magical DD with high attack power but low health. So far the PWI wiz is not different from the wiz role in other games.

Many people said in the past the wiz is a " glass cannon" high DPH dmg output with the downturn of low hp pool and therefore an easy kill for melee classes which is not entirely true.

But in PWI the wiz originally had always the choice to specialize when you look at the possible builds which come from different equipment:

A) Highest Possible DPH + elemental defenses with low physical def and good -chan

Highest Possible DPS with high elemental defenses low phys def and lower magic attack
C) Relatively High DPH + high phys def + relatively high elemental def and mediocre -chan
D Low magic attack highest pdef low elemental def low -chan high crit rate with higher hp

The main problem with this builds is that due to new elements in the game like +att lvls and the introduction of new classes the original variety of viable builds for the wiz has become useless. I mean why should someone make a -chan build if the gear ( r9) not longer supports such an option. Moreover why increase DPS of the wiz when you can have higher DPS on a psy anyway with the difference that this character has more defensive skills in the arsenal to compensate a build with pdef.....

I know many of the wizards ( including myself since I also use pdef ornaments) are scared to go with a pure wiz build arcane +elemental ornas and+ corresponding weapon..
because sacrificing some attack power to gain more survivability has worked great not only in pvp but also in pve ( delta..) and the game unfortunately doesnt need elemental tanks a lot or provides many occasions for an alternative way of tanking. So the 2nd role of the wiz magic Tank also doesnt work ( not even if you dont consider the lack in dmg output )

Moreover some of the wizards mechanics are outdated. I mean the wizards elemental arsenal consists of water for slowing earth for hard hits and stuns and fire for fast hits and also dmg. Due to the role as a range DD the wizard is supposed to keep distance to the enemies. This is the point where the slow from the water tree comes in. Unfortunately who cares about the slow when melee classes can teleport+stun with 100% chance. So slow tree wont save wiz and all other effects have 50% chance to work at best. Fow here is the only thing that might slightly improve the situation but since the chances to 1 shot an enemy is relatively low without a crit if it is an equally geared opponent fow alone wont do it.

So in the end there is only 1 way for PWI to save the class. They have to give the wiz back something that is only possible with a wiz. Something unique. I thought for a long time the unique ability of the wiz class is that wiz attack power is so high that it is possible to 1 shot everything which is compensated by making the wiz an easy target. But this role is long gone. wiz can not even be considered the best magical aoe class in the game or the most versatile class because of the 2ndery heal function. So unless PWI redefines the classes wiz = dead

greetz harmOwnie

Menarin - Dreamweaver · October 2011

HarmOwnie - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Many people said in the past the wiz is a " glass cannon" high DPH dmg output with the downturn of low hp pool.

But in PWI the wiz originally always had the choice to specialize when you look at the possible builds that come from different equipment:

A) Highest Possible DPH + elemental defenses with low physical def and good -chan
Highest Possible DPS with high elemental defenses low phys def and lower magic attack
C) Relatively High DPH + high phys def + relatively high elemental def and mediocre -chan
D Low magic attack highest pdef low elemental def low -chan high crit rate with higher hp

My main issue with your logic here, is that these Class Builds were invented by the player base, not the Developers themselves. As far as we all know the Wizard class was specifically designed to be the class with the highest possible Earth, Water, and Fire resistances, whilst dealing an extremely high amount of said elemental type damage in one go.

They (Wizards) were never meant to have good DPS, as when the game first came out the developers never thought that DPS would be broken like it is now, with all the -interval, -channeling, +atk lvl, +def lvl gear stacking that players do. Granted they designed the system for it to be possible, but I think its more of an overlooked exploit that is too difficult to fix, than an intentional mechanic.

If you look at the Wizard class this way, it only makes sense to assume that when designed wizards were fully intended to be purely elemental defense/mag damage oriented and built to act as a neutral damage agent to each other. (Obviously physical damage is better and also we know a better geared wizard will win, but that is not the point!) Equaled geared wizards were designed be protected from one another when being DD'ed by each other in large scale PvP/TW.

Keep in mind that at this point in time the only other high damage Magic classes were Veno (wood) and Cleric (Metal). Thus Wizard shields were designed not to tank mobs but to protect wizards from other wizards, making Wizards fire/water shields pretty much useless. (With the exception of now-a-days because the water shield is fairly useful when fighting psychics occasionally)

EDIT: inb4 blah blah mana/hp regen, phys def boost.

HarmOwnie - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Moreover some of the wizards mechanics are outdated. I mean the wizards elemental arsenal consists of water for slowing earth for hard hits and stuns and fire for fast hits and also dmg. Due to the role as a range DD the wizard is supposed to keep distance to the enemies. This is the point where the slow from the water tree comes in. Unfortunately who cares about the slow when melee classes can teleport+stun with 100% chance. So slow tree wont save wiz and all other effects have 50% chance to work at best. Fow here is the only thing that might slightly improve the situation but since the chances to 1 shot an enemy is relatively low without a crit if it is an equally geared opponent fow alone wont do it.

^I agree 100%

HarmOwnie - Dreamweaver wrote: »

So in the end there is only 1 way for PWI to save the class. They have to give the wiz back something that is only possible with a wiz. Something unique. Unless PWI redefines the classes wiz = dead

^Also agree

HarmOwnie - Dreamweaver · October 2011

Menarin - Dreamweaver wrote: »

My main issue with your logic here, is that these Class Builds were invented by the player base, not the Developers themselves.

well if you take a closer look at the characteristics of the classes you will notice that PWI compared to other MMORPGs chose a rather open system when it comes to the relation between stats + skills + gear which is a good idea because it allowes people to adapt a class to their personal playstyle and you see also characters endgame that are no exact copy of the other people who play the same char. The common builds are indeed created by the players but they are based on the possibilities the game offers. For instance basically as a wiz you can choose between 4 different types of magic weapons and depending on your build there will be good reasons why to prefer a certain pataka to a magic sword ...

But nevertheless due to armor requirements and effect of stats the game always gave indicators which way to go. (it is useless to play a wiz without putting points in mag but it might be ok to put points in other stats too for certain reasons) I mean for instance if you take phys ornaments there is no -chan on them = the game forces you to make a decision The problem is if you go for instance with the build described as A) you will go for a pure arcane build with elemental ornaments which will you many mag bonuses and also will give you -chan and high elemental resistance but you will be squishy as hell to physical attacks = team based char who needs cover therefore only few people will go this way. Here you can also see what the whole rank thing did because there is only 1 weapon from rank and there are only elemental ornaments from the set...= PWI started to destroy the diversity

Menarin - Dreamweaver wrote: »

As far as we all know the Wizard class was specifically designed to be the class with the highest possible Earth, Water, and Fire resistances, whilst dealing an extremely high amount of said elemental type damage in one go.

yes but the resistances for water and fire mainly are for PvE. I mean there are many mobs
that have especially those elemental type dmg when you fight them in range mode so the idea of taking over the "tank" part for mobs with magical dmg as counterpart to the barb for mobs with phys dmg can also be seen as a concept around the wiz class. Unfortunately the difference between shield boosted res and normal res from an arcane class is not high enough so a cleric or veno ( when arcane) also can do this tanking job. There are some groups of mobs with range elemental dmg especially 100+ where fire and water barrier help a lot so maybe in the orignial version ( lvl up to 150) there will be more bosses or applications
the idea to use fire and water barrier to be protected against other wizards doesnt work because changing the barriers requires chi and time so it wont work properly.

Menarin - Dreamweaver wrote: »

They (Wizards) were never meant to have good DPS, as when the game first came out the developers never thought that DPS would be broken like it is now, with all the -interval, -channeling, +atk lvl, +def lvl gear stacking that players do. Granted they designed the system for it to be possible, but I think its more of an overlooked exploit that is too difficult to fix, than an intentional mechanic.

Well the main problem with the modifiers you name here is not that they exist in the game in general the problem is that the way they are put into the game i mean how they are added to the gear is completely ridiculous. Also the effort to get 1 piece that contains such a modifier is a joke. Ok +30 att lvls on a warsoul are no problem because the 30% are the same for all classes and the weapon is really hard to obtain. But providing for instance seeker with a skill that boosts +att or def lvls doesnt fit in or voodoos for psy. PWI failed to use a consistent system for that because instead of a +att -def lvl for voodoo a percent in mag attack like the bms marrows would have been ok. But the way it is is simply unfair. I dont think that PWI is not aware of the effect of stacking such modifiers. I think they know exactly what they do when they add sets like r9. But the sad truth is that they are willing to kill the diversity in the game and with r9 they finally did it because there is nothing compareable to a fullset of r9 so far. Also the upgrading rank system is a bad joke because r8 will never be r9 or will never be changed to r9 so they dont want a player any longer to constantly work on the gear. The old system was brilliant.

farm for green TT or Lunar -->decompose -->farm for gold mat --> get gold TT or Lunar
--> farm for nirvana

alternative way get OHT armor --> decompose to get parts for warsoul --> get warsoul...

now its get rank or gtfo

Menarin - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Keep in mind that at this point in time the only other high damage Magic classes were Veno (wood) and Cleric (Metal).

yes but all elements were already distributed so they had to come up with new combinations for the new classes. The sad truth is that 50% of the classes have phys attack as main dmg type (bm sin archer barb seeker) and since keeping an attacker at range doesnt work anymore the wiz needs a form of additional defenses. On the other hand the debuff to get down the resistances of the enemies is relatively short considering the long chan+cast times of the spells

greetz harm0wnie

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur · October 2011

Questro - Lost City wrote: »

Think about it if u got 5k hp will u use vit or jade? obviously vit.
Now if u got 11k + hp what kinda shard will u use? jade ofc

+1

/char

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur · October 2011

Menarin - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Equaled geared wizards were designed be protected from one another when being DD'ed by each other in large scale PvP/TW.

Elemental ornament wearing wizards are protected from one another in TW? They are absolute fodder for one another - BT b:surrender

Menarin - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Keep in mind that at this point in time the only other high damage Magic classes were Veno (wood) and Cleric (Metal). Thus Wizard shields were designed not to tank mobs but to protect wizards from other wizards, making Wizards fire/water shields pretty much useless.

No, they were designed because those are the elements a wizard uses. The races are centered around the elements - giving a wizard a metal magic shield would be like giving little red riding hood a blue hood. Someone, somewhere, did a good explanation of how this ties in with chinese mythology, etc., but honestly - to say wizards have a fire shield only to be used against other wizards seems to me to be a gross oversimplification - not to mention not supported in fact: what wizard has ever put up pyroshell against another wizard? In 1 vs 1 or b:chuckle in TW b:surrender

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear · October 2011

HarmOwnie - Dreamweaver wrote: »

[/Color]
well if you take a closer look at the characteristics of the classes you will notice that PWI compared to other MMORPGs chose a rather open system when it comes to the relation between stats + skills + gear which is a good idea because it allowes people to adapt a class to their personal playstyle and you see also characters endgame that are no exact copy of the other people who play the same char. The common builds are indeed created by the players but they are based on the possibilities the game offers. For instance basically as a wiz you can choose between 4 different types of magic weapons and depending on your build there will be good reasons why to prefer a certain pataka to a magic sword ...

But nevertheless due to armor requirements and effect of stats the game always gave indicators which way to go. (it is useless to play a wiz without putting points in mag but it might be ok to put points in other stats too for certain reasons) I mean for instance if you take phys ornaments there is no -chan on them = the game forces you to make a decision The problem is if you go for instance with the build described as A) you will go for a pure arcane build with elemental ornaments which will you many mag bonuses and also will give you -chan and high elemental resistance but you will be squishy as hell to physical attacks = team based char who needs cover therefore only few people will go this way. Here you can also see what the whole rank thing did because there is only 1 weapon from rank and there are only elemental ornaments from the set...= PWI started to destroy the diversity

[/Color]
yes but the resistances for water and fire mainly are for PvE. I mean there are many mobs
that have especially those elemental type dmg when you fight them in range mode so the idea of taking over the "tank" part for mobs with magical dmg as counterpart to the barb for mobs with phys dmg can also be seen as a concept around the wiz class. Unfortunately the difference between shield boosted res and normal res from an arcane class is not high enough so a cleric or veno ( when arcane) also can do this tanking job. There are some groups of mobs with range elemental dmg especially 100+ where fire and water barrier help a lot so maybe in the orignial version ( lvl up to 150) there will be more bosses or applications
the idea to use fire and water barrier to be protected against other wizards doesnt work because changing the barriers requires chi and time so it wont work properly.

[/Color]
Well the main problem with the modifiers you name here is not that they exist in the game in general the problem is that the way they are put into the game i mean how they are added to the gear is completely ridiculous. Also the effort to get 1 piece that contains such a modifier is a joke. Ok +30 att lvls on a warsoul are no problem because the 30% are the same for all classes and the weapon is really hard to obtain. But providing for instance seeker with a skill that boosts +att or def lvls doesnt fit in or voodoos for psy. PWI failed to use a consistent system for that because instead of a +att -def lvl for voodoo a percent in mag attack like the bms marrows would have been ok. But the way it is is simply unfair. I dont think that PWI is not aware of the effect of stacking such modifiers. I think they know exactly what they do when they add sets like r9. But the sad truth is that they are willing to kill the diversity in the game and with r9 they finally did it because there is nothing compareable to a fullset of r9 so far. Also the upgrading rank system is a bad joke because r8 will never be r9 or will never be changed to r9 so they dont want a player any longer to constantly work on the gear. The old system was brilliant.

farm for green TT or Lunar -->decompose -->farm for gold mat --> get gold TT or Lunar
--> farm for nirvana

alternative way get OHT armor --> decompose to get parts for warsoul --> get warsoul...

now its get rank or gtfo

yes but all elements were already distributed so they had to come up with new combinations for the new classes. The sad truth is that 50% of the classes have phys attack as main dmg type (bm sin archer barb seeker) and since keeping an attacker at range doesnt work anymore the wiz needs a form of additional defenses. On the other hand the debuff to get down the resistances of the enemies is relatively short considering the long chan+cast times of the spells

greetz harm0wnie

100% right and good written. What say more? Absolutely true.

Aizza - Harshlands · October 2011

Vital_Slash - Sanctuary wrote: »

Can any1 remember times where Wizzies WERE wanted?

The one place I don't want a well-built, well-played Wiz is .... behind/above/infront >> Aiming me....

Anywhere else - I have no issues being in their squad and enjoy the CC (crowd-control) they offer. Just like any other class, they break my aggro > they bought the boss.... (hehe get it ? You break it - you buy it?)

HarmOwnie - Dreamweaver · October 2011

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur wrote: »

Elemental ornament wearing wizards are protected from one another in TW? They are absolute fodder for one another - BT b:surrender

you are right that when using elemental ornaments your physical defense will be relatively low but the point that I was trying to explain is that when you look at the idea of the class and which items are supporting the strengths of the class you will realize that elemental ornaments are offering all the stats a wizard usually wants : points in mag, chan, hp
and elemental resistances that increase the power of your elemental barriers. The low physical resistance is a consequence for improving the attack power and attack speed by using these ornaments. So at least when handling multiple elemental type mobs of fire/water/earth that build shines because the dmg you receive is a non factor and voila here we have the tank for magical dmg as long as it is fire/water/earth Unfortunately the idea of being vulnerable with the class and squishy in a pvp situation doesnt look promising to many players so they accept to leave out a lil bit of attack power and aps from chan for higher pdef. It is like the choice of sacrificing hp for more attack power on a barb with the difference that on the barb due to additional armageddon dmg and raw hp as best way of tanking hits it is easier to see that such a build focussing on the core function of the class can also shine even if it might be considered fail because by specializing you also accept partial weaknesses

greetz harm0wnie

MrHanky - Harshlands · October 2011

see the thing is here you look at the big numbers from jades and you know where it comes from? your super high mdef to start with
you get 2x more magic protection than phys protection
and i can honestly say i dont need and magic protection
just look at the numbers its an average of the 2
can u really say as a wizard omg i got magic pwned i need more mdef
pdef hp
the def lvls give more based on how much u start with
u start with more u get more out
simple as that

go ahead make some fake calcs start with low mdef and pdef
then start with high mdef pdef
the higher your starting point the more you get in return

so im gonna have to say a mix of the 3 would be better because you want to boost your pdef hp more than your mdef

Joshcja - Sanctuary · October 2011

MrHanky - Harshlands wrote: »

see the thing is here you look at the big numbers from jades and you know where it comes from? your super high mdef to start with
you get 2x more magic protection than phys protection
and i can honestly say i dont need and magic protection
just look at the numbers its an average of the 2
can u really say as a wizard omg i got magic pwned i need more mdef Since my BM has 12k m def buffed in marrow aka a stat thats much harder to debuff than a wizzies base stat and dies really, really quickly to sparked sutra or a rank 9 200% or higher spell if I dont either get in or out of range ASAP yes
pdef hp
the def lvls give more based on how much u start withdef levels are more effective wiht a low base stat
u start with more u get more out
simple as that

go ahead make some fake calcs start with low mdef and pdef
then start with high mdef pdef
the higher your starting point the more you get in return

so im gonna have to say a mix of the 3 would be better because you want to boost your pdef hp more than your mdef

That said Def level is only more effective at 10k base hp and 10k SBed phys def, and you pretty much need full +10 cit gems to get there, not many spots for def level in a mages armor unless they're rank 9

You only stack def level after your other stats begin giving lower returns despite def level beign more effective in of itself at low stats because its the only way you can effectively boost your stats at that point. Mages have low stats so there's not as much of a need to go out and stack 100 mill shards when 25 mill gems work better

MrHanky - Harshlands · October 2011

click that button on the left that says pvp r9 and see the difference
i mean who else is out there?

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur · October 2011

MrHanky - Harshlands wrote: »

can u really say as a wizard omg i got magic pwned

No, which is why elemental shell is such a marginal skill, but i bring up old battles . . . .b:surrender

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

That said Def level is only more effective at 10k base hp and 10k SBed phys def, and you pretty much need full +10 cit gems to get there, not many spots for def level in a mages armor unless they're rank 9

Have a Full +10 jade mage on our server. He's a tank. You don't need +10 and citrine gems.

Full jade r9 +10 armor is probably the goal for wizard endgame now. At close to 75m a stone, most will not waste the $ to get it, sure. But it sure seems to be the best to me. Any other wizard I will take out in TW. Him? I am better off letting archers/sins do it. Although I do seal and MS him when I can to give them a chance to get to him.

Nurfed_You - Harshlands · October 2011

bouncing between pwcalc and socketcalc

socketcalc:put in stats (find best gem)
pwcalc:insert 1x of the best gem
socketcalc:adjust stats subtract 1 socket at bottom

repeat.

this is the end build(shards) that i got to using that process (vs r9)
http://pwcalc.com/f79ecfbd8dcc10bc

g14cube>g16cube for cost efficiency. the cost of a g16cube+12 vs a g14+12 is nto worth the added benefit of pdef. g14+12 10k self buffed pdef. g16+12 like 600 more self buffed pdef.

Nostalgic Wiz :/

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