Nostalgic Wiz :/

Vital_Slash - Sanctuary

Can any1 remember times where Wizzies WERE wanted? seriously... ive been forced to make a sin just so i can Support my wiz. Im starting to see where our Class "deadline" meets because obviously we arent able to catch up to the expected point where 5 aps has taken its toll on us. The only point where a wiz is able to make it to where aps are is to go R9, and thats REALLY expensive. Some how...i dont see how GM's are gonna let this Class catch up to where we need, other than Throw Money at PW's Feet (hey that rhymes :P)

But yea... Really...ever think of the time where PW wasnt so....Full of power lvled noobs?

HexOmega - Dreamweaver

farming is not everything


the breaking point is getting facerolled by assasins in pk

not everyone needs to farm, some people use their brains, or credit cards




wizard was never particularly useful in squads outside the pvp realm
archers were always better damage, and hands down, venos

for delta people would prefer archers over wizards in the past, simply cause they didnt take aggro and die




its all about the overpoweredness of assasins
and more and more since we enter the realm of full +12, psychics

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

I agree with Hex. Sins really ruined PvP, one of the things we're supposed to be good at endgame. Don't get me wrong, we are good in general. But sins will faceroll you every damn time...

prof

until you realize that, lol, pdef+hp does in-fact help you more than a ton of defense levels lol

reducing the attack their attack levels increase, whilst also maintaining some defense levels, sounds quite superior to me.

Questro - Lost City

prof wrote: »

until you realize that, lol, pdef+hp does in-fact help you more than a ton of defense levels lol

reducing the attack their attack levels increase, whilst also maintaining some defense levels, sounds quite superior to me.

what are you talking about dude?

prof

that you will live longer if you have higher defense and more hp, rather than a ****ton of defense levels.

how much did you pay for that char?

Adroit - Lost City

prof wrote: »

that you will live longer if you have higher defense and more hp, rather than a ****ton of defense levels.

how much did you pay for that char?

http://pwcalc.com/e2885a2599f3c046 (fixed link)
http://i55.tinypic.com/2a5nbwy.jpg

I'm sure there are cases (maybe a high channeling build) where hp/pdef provide the highest survivability.. but most people shoot for a build similar to this where jades end up being the best sharding option. I think it's also important to note the difference between jades and vit stones increases with full buffs.. just plugged it in and the added survivability on jades came out to an average of 19043 while the next best.. vit stones came out to 15412.

Adroit - Lost City

Err I posted wrong pwcalc, I'll fix it when I get home.. But it's basically the same but all +12 and g16 cube neck.. And lvl 105. Just in case somebody wonders why the numbers are not matching up.

Lenestro - Sanctuary

prof wrote: »

until you realize that, lol, pdef+hp does in-fact help you more than a ton of defense levels lol

reducing the attack their attack levels increase, whilst also maintaining some defense levels, sounds quite superior to me.

and i suppose you recommend we all shard with... drakeflames?

HexOmega - Dreamweaver

Amber Gems, ~cant touch this

prof

it's illogical to believe that 'reducing', not removing, the additional damage that comes with attack levels is superior to having more base defense and hp to help defend from the additional damage and the damage it's boosted by..

Adroit - Lost City

prof wrote: »

it's illogical to believe that 'reducing', not removing, the additional damage that comes with attack levels is superior to having more base defense and hp to help defend from the additional damage and the damage it's boosted by..

I'm not sure exactly what you think is illogical. Physical defense and magic resists also just 'reduce' incoming damage, but I haven't met anyone yet that pretends they are useless because they don't remove incoming damage entirely..

Just run a few numbers with some example build.. it really isn't that difficult to test/calculate.

prof

I think reducing the additional damage that attack levels offer(I say reduce because you will always have less def levels than your opponent has attack levels as this class) is less useful than reducing the actual attack(..which is more than the attack levels offer).

I can't see why this is such a hard concept..

what does reducing someones attack levels do if your opponents damage behind those attack levels is still high? you're still taking a lot of damage..

Adroit - Lost City

prof wrote: »

I think reducing the additional damage that attack levels offer(I say reduce because you will always have less def levels than your opponent has attack levels as this class) is less useful than reducing the actual attack(..which is more than the attack levels offer).

I can't see why this is such a hard concept..

what does reducing someones attack levels do if your opponents damage behind those attack levels is still high? you're still taking a lot of damage..

There is an easy enough way to solve this dispute.. we can do the math to test it out. Since Asterelle was kind of enough to leave us a calculator to do just that.. I used it. It said jades increase the average survivability of that build more than any other sharding option. If you think the calculator is flawed, you can double check that the formulas are all correct on the pwi-wiki or bring it up with Asterelle.. but I'm done wasting my time.

Questro - Lost City

prof wrote: »

I think reducing the additional damage that attack levels offer(I say reduce because you will always have less def levels than your opponent has attack levels as this class) is less useful than reducing the actual attack(..which is more than the attack levels offer).

I can't see why this is such a hard concept..

what does reducing someones attack levels do if your opponents damage behind those attack levels is still high? you're still taking a lot of damage..

wanna prove it?

prof

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

There is an easy enough way to solve this dispute.. we can do the math to test it out. Since Asterelle was kind of enough to leave us a calculator to do just that.. I used it. It said jades increase the average survivability of that build more than any other sharding option. If you think the calculator is flawed, you can double check that the formulas are all correct on the pwi-wiki or bring it up with Asterelle.. but I'm done wasting my time.

math is not everything, everything is situational. i'm talking from experience, you're talking from a calculator..

sacrificing your own defense and hp to nullify some of your opponents attack levels is stupid.

questro, again, how much did you pay for that mage?

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

prof wrote: »

math is not everything, everything is situational. i'm talking from experience, you're talking from a calculator..

...really? Math isn't everything? Seriously?

"Your calculator says 2+2=4, but from experience I think it equals 5."

Mr_Wasabi - Harshlands

HEY i know exactly what you're talking about . My first character was a wizard .. siqqh , but today i have put him in retirement . goodbye my dear friend .. if only you were actually needed ..

Questro - Lost City

prof wrote: »

math is not everything, everything is situational. i'm talking from experience, you're talking from a calculator..

sacrificing your own defense and hp to nullify some of your opponents attack levels is stupid.

questro, again, how much did you pay for that mage?

Have u try to shard ur gear with jods, vit, garnet or citrine and experience ur survival? What kind of experience do you have? You need believe in math, make u smarter

prof

Questro - Lost City wrote: »

Have u try to shard ur gear with jods, vit, garnet or citrine and experience ur survival? What kind of experience do you have? You need believe in math, make u smarter

yes, actually. I only tried 8 jades, not a full set. I've been using pdef/vit forever(find my old pwcalc's of my mage in myen), and I don't consider hp stones end-game.

what did I learn? my original theory was correct - sharding for defense levels sacrifices the defense you use to defend from both your opponents attack levels and their normal attack. this is an old theory against pdef stones, as hp would be 'neutral', helping you against phys and magic.

vit stones are hp stones on steroids. vit offers 100 hp for mages and all around defenses. this is what people wanted with hp stones, but better; however, when you shard for vit, you also sacrifice defense(much like you do with sharding jades!). I'm sure there's some balance between all 3 stones that allows you to use all 3 and be godmode or some ****, but I sold that gear that had it.

in my experience? you want a lot of pdef, while maintaining high mdef and moderate hp.

http://pwcalc.com/1d247069bbc2c4fc - playing with build possibilities again as I finish my mage, I came up with this(the adorn is nostalgic, qq)

what do mages die to with a +10 set? other mages? venos? psy's and mystics? probably not, who attacks the person with high mdef? sins, archers, good bm's and maybe a lucky zerk/crit armageddon? qq i had gof.

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

...really? Math isn't everything? Seriously?

"Your calculator says 2+2=4, but from experience I think it equals 5."

your analogy is as **** as you are thinking the state of ohio is from malaysia.

you can't calculate the usefulness of stones with math, you figure it out in-game with actual experience.


adroit:
we actually had this discussion a few days ago, and the calculator said 24 vit stones offered the most average(not sure if the calculator changed or just +10 sets need vit more than +12 sets based on it). in my experience, sharding 24 of the same stone has never turned out to be a good thing for mages. i'll say the calculator has flaws, but only on a real-time level; you can't calculate how you or anyone pvp's with numbers that aren't related to the fight.

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

prof wrote: »

your analogy is as **** as you are thinking the state of ohio is from malaysia.

Lmao you're so easy to troll, it's adorable b:cute

prof

I wish someone would re-define the word troll to me, it seems to have lost its original meaning.

you being **** is not trolling, it just means you're ****.

Adroit - Lost City

prof wrote: »

you can't calculate the usefulness of stones with math

... lol? And the other discussion we had a few days ago was with a build that was not full rank9.

Wizzie - Raging Tide

Sharding with dot's ftwb:surrenderb:surrender

Ursa - Dreamweaver

HexOmega - Dreamweaver wrote: »

farming is not everything


the breaking point is getting facerolled by assasins in pk

not everyone needs to farm, some people use their brains, or credit cards




wizard was never particularly useful in squads outside the pvp realm
archers were always better damage, and hands down, venos

for delta people would prefer archers over wizards in the past, simply cause they didnt take aggro and die




its all about the overpoweredness of assasins
and more and more since we enter the realm of full +12, psychics

only the idiot squads. Wiz can handle much , much more punishment than archer in Delta, because of def aura. And "getting aggro and die" apply to when BM + Barb suck.
Well , that was in the old days anyway.
Now just get a seeker, who needs archer or wiz, lol.

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear

Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »

only the idiot squads. Wiz can handle much , much more punishment than archer in Delta, because of def aura. And "getting aggro and die" apply to when BM + Barb suck.
Well , that was in the old days anyway.
Now just get a seeker, who needs archer or wiz, lol.

Even worse. People start picking another classes just for open nirvana because of our useless buff. That's ridiculous. I very regret I killed so much time with wizard in this game.b:angry

HexOmega - Dreamweaver

i always have my barb opener with me in nirvana but mostly lacking cleric buffs so the other class needed is cleric to open

in 3 man that makes 1 fixed barb 1 fixed cleric opener and 1 random
but i dont see any wizards standing in front of nirvana waiting for opener invites ;o

seems liek wizards have more pride than clerics x.x
or wizards are stupid and clerics know how to adapt changes

Joshcja - Sanctuary

prof wrote: »

yes, actually. I only tried 8 jades, not a full set. I've been using pdef/vit forever(find my old pwcalc's of my mage in myen), and I don't consider hp stones end-game.

what did I learn? my original theory was correct - sharding for defense levels sacrifices the defense you use to defend from both your opponents attack levels and their normal attack. this is an old theory against pdef stones, as hp would be 'neutral', helping you against phys and magic.

vit stones are hp stones on steroids. vit offers 100 hp for mages and all around defenses. this is what people wanted with hp stones, but better; however, when you shard for vit, you also sacrifice defense(much like you do with sharding jades!). I'm sure there's some balance between all 3 stones that allows you to use all 3 and be godmode or some ****, but I sold that gear that had it.

in my experience? you want a lot of pdef, while maintaining high mdef and moderate hp.

http://pwcalc.com/1d247069bbc2c4fc - playing with build possibilities again as I finish my mage, I came up with this(the adorn is nostalgic, qq)

what do mages die to with a +10 set? other mages? venos? psy's and mystics? probably not, who attacks the person with high mdef? sins, archers, good bm's and maybe a lucky zerk/crit armageddon? qq i had gof.



your analogy is as **** as you are thinking the state of ohio is from malaysia.

you can't calculate the usefulness of stones with math, you figure it out in-game with actual experience.


adroit:
we actually had this discussion a few days ago, and the calculator said 24 vit stones offered the most average(not sure if the calculator changed or just +10 sets need vit more than +12 sets based on it). in my experience, sharding 24 of the same stone has never turned out to be a good thing for mages. i'll say the calculator has flaws, but only on a real-time level; you can't calculate how you or anyone pvp's with numbers that aren't related to the fight.

My in game experiance is that even with 25k phys def and 11k hp a rank 9 barb can still charm bypass on a zerk or crit arma dosent even need to be both so the only way of surviveing is to reduce the amp placed on you by attack levels a bit. The only rank 9 class thats reall "tankable" w/o def levels is bm's

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

prof wrote: »

I wish someone would re-define the word troll to me, it seems to have lost its original meaning.

you being **** is not trolling, it just means you're ****.

Lmao I got you upset because I acted like I didn't know where Ohio was. You got trolled buddy, someone even pointed it out in that very thread.

And trolling is when somebody says something **** that another person reacts to that makes them look **** b:cute

So I trolled you hard.

prof

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

My in game experiance is that even with 25k phys def and 11k hp a rank 9 barb can still charm bypass on a zerk or crit arma dosent even need to be both so the only way of surviveing is to reduce the amp placed on you by attack levels a bit. The only rank 9 class thats reall "tankable" w/o def levels is bm's

attack levels change your attack, arma isn't affected by attack at all..

meh.

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

Lmao I got you upset because I acted like I didn't know where Ohio was. You got trolled buddy, someone even pointed it out in that very thread.

And trolling is when somebody says something **** that another person reacts to that makes them look **** b:cute

So I trolled you hard.

you're really ****, aren't you? please stop, it's depressing. you don't know what 'trolling' is, you're just making yourself sound stupider than you did arguing with blood.

Sun_Burn - Lost City

prof wrote: »

attack levels change your attack, arma isn't affected by attack at all..

are u saying a barb with 100 attack levels wont do 2x damage compared to a barb with 0 attack lvls?

I've enver thought about it, now I'm curious if skills like frenzy/EP has anything to do with attacks like that.

edit: Ima go test it with emberstorm <_<