Why 5 APS?
Tagi_ - Dreamweaver
Posts: 98 Arc User
I keep hearing that 5 APS is best now and if a barb isn't using claws then he sucks.
I'm returning to this game after a little over a year and I'm not aware of any changes that could have caused this, so I hope you understand when I say from my point of view it's the dumbest thing I have ever heard.
Could somebody please explain to me why sacrificing a barb's HP for 5 APS could possibly be a good idea?
Thanks in advanceb:thanks
I'm returning to this game after a little over a year and I'm not aware of any changes that could have caused this, so I hope you understand when I say from my point of view it's the dumbest thing I have ever heard.
Could somebody please explain to me why sacrificing a barb's HP for 5 APS could possibly be a good idea?
Thanks in advanceb:thanks
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Post edited by Tagi_ - Dreamweaver on
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At your level you don't want to use claws/fists. You'll realise around the time you reach lvl 90-100 why many switch
Mainly:
1) you don't tank if you don't have aggro
2) you don't really need that 1.5k or so HP anyway
3) you can still do everything a regular barb can do
4) you kill so so so much faster
I personally decided to switch after I got demon flesh ream at lvl 90. It has a smaller cooldown as bonus so I figured this was gonna help me maintain aggro. I was wrong. Spamming this skill non stop on every cooldown (I had plenty of chi) a bloody lvl 80 psychic pulled aggro away from me.
Barbs that don't use claws dont't suck, that's rubbish. Clawless barbs are still great for pulling mobs and pulling catapults, they're just not likely to be tanking any boss after certain levels.0 -
Can I really do everything a regular barb can do though? All the skills require axe/hammer or being unarmed, claws are neither. So I'd have no access to skills...[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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Tagi_ - Dreamweaver wrote: »Can I really do everything a regular barb can do though? All the skills require axe/hammer or being unarmed, claws are neither. So I'd have no access to skills...
You still have an axe/hammer, why would you get rid of those, you just use claws for bosses, I spend most of my time in tiger form personally (i.e. no claws). It's when you're up against a boss or really high HP mob that the claws come out
For example, after gears I have 300 STR, 200 DEX, 100+ VIT, enough to wear Rank 8 Polehammer and Deicide lunar claws . I still have 14k HP in tiger form which is plenty as far as I've noticed, and 11.3K in claw form :P I'll usually heal around 200-400 per hit against non [?] bosses, meaning 1k-2k HP heal per second with bloodpaint. This makes the job of a cleric much easier (if you even bring one).0 -
Oh lol I was under the assumption I'd have less STR as well xD[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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Tagi_ - Dreamweaver wrote: »Oh lol I was under the assumption I'd have less STR as well xD
Ahhh then I understand your initial assumption, yeah that wouldn't be a good idea at ALL b:chuckle0 -
Out of curiosity what is the build for 5 APS?[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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3 str 2 dex, you can pop some vital or more str/dex if you please.... if your gear gives the bonuses.0
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This is my build for example. THere's a couple of things that obviously need to be replaced some day, but with this relatively cheap build you can already do a pretty nice job 0
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IN short, sins are the reason we now have so many calw barbs IMO:P
Bloodpaint & 5 aps is a great combo, and holding aggro is much harder these days.
That being said, you don't have to go claw barb, in fact it's not even a good idea unless you're endgame and can afford the gear. The guide on claw barbs sums it up pretty well. Ideally if you are going to go claw barb, you'll still be able to use axes and the approriate HA gear, but sacrifice some vit so you can also switch out to claws and solo/DD with the APS crowd b:laugh
There are alot of good claw barbs out there these days, but it's an endgame goal only. It depends heavily on having the right gear/shards/refines to remain able to tank, and give the option to DD.frankieraye
Oh the snowmen are coming, don't you worry..0 -
So I can still be a good tank without 5 APS then?[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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Tagi_ - Dreamweaver wrote: »So I can still be a good tank without 5 APS then?
Forget the TANK word for PVE at endgame if you dont have claws. b:bye
As wolf said:ItsAWolf - Archosaur wrote: »1) you don't tank if you don't have aggro[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
...i guarantee you, YOUR CHILDREN WILL NOT SEE THE DAY OF YOUR WHITE HAIRS...GOODBYE BLUE SKY (and PW too)
>RETIRED<0 -
how much does a Deicide cost? b:thanks0
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XXTygaeraXx - Heavens Tear wrote: »how much does a Deicide cost? b:thanks
It depends on server and time.
Here in sanct is going from 35 to 50mil usually.
Btw, deicides are not the most expensive piece on a 3.33 > 5.0 build.
Vana Pants or Pangu tome are.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
...i guarantee you, YOUR CHILDREN WILL NOT SEE THE DAY OF YOUR WHITE HAIRS...GOODBYE BLUE SKY (and PW too)
>RETIRED<0 -
you can get by with out the tome though if you don't mind using two pieces of LA. Tomes are so spendyb:surrender0
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Don't forget the incoming chi patch. b:shocked[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Sorry i speak engrish b:chuckle
Nickname doesn't have anything to do with sailor but related to a folklore
Use search, it was your best friends to avoid many suffering in internet...0 -
yup then STR build barb spamming will laugh at aps barbs wait let me start saying i TOLD YOU SOb:shocked0
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MoonUsagi - Heavens Tear wrote: »Don't forget the incoming chi patch. b:shocked
I don't think that will do anything to stop the supremecy of 5 APS characters, especially tanky ones like barbs. Even without spark the damage 3.33 / 4 aps does is significant, so while the average DPS might be lowered a bit, it will still be far better than any alternatives.0 -
GohRaL - Sanctuary wrote: »It depends on server and time.
Here in sanct is going from 35 to 50mil usually.
tyvm b:thanks0 -
Thank You Gohral b:thanks0
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_Ghoul_ - Lost City wrote: »yup then STR build barb spamming will laugh at aps barbs wait let me start saying i TOLD YOU SOb:shocked
Lol, if the spark nerf isn't a rumor it may take years to reach us. Even if it does come our way, most of us won't change much of our games play. It'll be spark for 15 seconds, build chi for 12 at 3.33-4 aps, spark for 15 seconds...
Does that mean we can laugh at you for the past 3 years for being a "lesser barb"? Even pure strength barbs only do about 15% the damage of an aps barb (yes, for every 1000 damage I do, you do 150).
And you realize -int barbs are pretty close to strength barbs, right? I have about 75 vit right now but am thinking of restating it into strength. I know an aps barbs 400+ strength doesn't equal the 500+ str with only 50 dex that "pure" str barbs have but considering they have 30% crit and more accuracy even using axes only the dph is very close.
Oh, for the OP. Gear became better and people no longer needed their mass amounts of vitality just to stay alive. Instead, aggro become the problem. Weapons became better and every class in the game could out DD a barb and rip aggro, and since armor was better the other classes didn't mind tanking. Barbs became used for buffs and to devour for DD's, which became the "real tanks."
So barbs had to evolve, too. Who cares about 35k hp endgame when most bosses barely tickle you? Move that over to strength for DD. Or better, strength and dex and equip some fists. Now you are a DD that can deal damage with some of the top DDs in the game but you can take damage better than them.
Aps barbs actually have more survivability than vit barbs because we get so much chi. Consider that 5 aps and bloodpaint is about equal to 1-2 clerics spam healing you with IH. We can invoke 20 out fo 60 seconds. We can spark every 12 seconds for 20% heal and 3 second immunity, and we never "need" to waste time or chi on aggro because we generate our own with damage.
Swapping from fists to axe and back is instant, so is tiger form. Just needs practice. Anyone who says you can't use skills as a fist barb doesn't understand the class, you just might need to hit a second button before using your skill. You can actually do it during the cast animation of attacks or sparks. I typically run up and devour (gives 100% accuracy till mob is dead) and pop human form as the attack casts, triple spark as soon as you're human, then change to fists as you are sparking and can't attack. Attack. Triple spark, this time switch to axe during spark animation and pentrate armor, switch back to fists during the PA's cast animation. No time lost.
Other than catabarb (and arguably pvp) the real question is why wouldn't you go 5 aps? Very high DD with very high tankability, or buff **** who is along to debuff for real tanks and dds.Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory0 -
Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »Lol, if the spark nerf isn't a rumor it may take years to reach us. Even if it does come our way, most of us won't change much of our games play. It'll be spark for 15 seconds, build chi for 12 at 3.33-4 aps, spark for 15 seconds...
Does that mean we can laugh at you for the past 3 years for being a "lesser barb"? Even pure strength barbs only do about 15% the damage of an aps barb (yes, for every 1000 damage I do, you do 150).
And you realize -int barbs are pretty close to strength barbs, right? I have about 75 vit right now but am thinking of restating it into strength. I know an aps barbs 400+ strength doesn't equal the 500+ str with only 50 dex that "pure" str barbs have but considering they have 30% crit and more accuracy even using axes only the dph is very close.
Oh, for the OP. Gear became better and people no longer needed their mass amounts of vitality just to stay alive. Instead, aggro become the problem. Weapons became better and every class in the game could out DD a barb and rip aggro, and since armor was better the other classes didn't mind tanking. Barbs became used for buffs and to devour for DD's, which became the "real tanks."
So barbs had to evolve, too. Who cares about 35k hp endgame when most bosses barely tickle you? Move that over to strength for DD. Or better, strength and dex and equip some fists. Now you are a DD that can deal damage with some of the top DDs in the game but you can take damage better than them.
Aps barbs actually have more survivability than vit barbs because we get so much chi. Consider that 5 aps and bloodpaint is about equal to 1-2 clerics spam healing you with IH. We can invoke 20 out fo 60 seconds. We can spark every 12 seconds for 20% heal and 3 second immunity, and we never "need" to waste time or chi on aggro because we generate our own with damage.
Swapping from fists to axe and back is instant, so is tiger form. Just needs practice. Anyone who says you can't use skills as a fist barb doesn't understand the class, you just might need to hit a second button before using your skill. You can actually do it during the cast animation of attacks or sparks. I typically run up and devour (gives 100% accuracy till mob is dead) and pop human form as the attack casts, triple spark as soon as you're human, then change to fists as you are sparking and can't attack. Attack. Triple spark, this time switch to axe during spark animation and pentrate armor, switch back to fists during the PA's cast animation. No time lost.
Other than catabarb (and arguably pvp) the real question is why wouldn't you go 5 aps? Very high DD with very high tankability, or buff **** who is along to debuff for real tanks and dds.
Thanks for the very detailed explanation I had thought that the whole 5aps barb craze was just your typical elitist bull but it seems there's some actual reasoning behind it(you can hardly blame me for thinking that the way everyone seems to act like an *** about the subject -_-).
I have one last question. Is it possible to start on the build for 5aps at my level? I realize I won't actually be able to get 5 aps for awhile but I'd rather not shell out however many coins to restat if I can just get it started now.
Here are my current stats. http://pwcalc.com/d149e354718c9628[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Aimed at itsawolf: I hope you plan to go pure strength when your gear is complete, you will hit so much harder and that will return the bloodsuck you need to survive and not tick. Just throwing that out there.
I went claws way later, and as soon as I turned claw I was 4.0 sparked, and was pure strength from the beginning, but my hp was around 10k. Just personal preferences.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
IBaMBii - Heavens Tear wrote: »Aimed at itsawolf: I hope you plan to go pure strength when your gear is complete, you will hit so much harder and that will return the bloodsuck you need to survive and not tick. Just throwing that out there.
I went claws way later, and as soon as I turned claw I was 4.0 sparked, and was pure strength from the beginning, but my hp was around 10k. Just personal preferences.
Thanks for the tip, I'll have to consider that indeed At this point I'm kinda waiting on what will happen with the recasting of R8 / R9 to see which road I'll go with my gear, so things are on hold for the moment. Once I get my 'endgame' gear I'll refine it a bit more and I should indeed switch to full strength then b:dirty 0 -
Personally I am a 5 APS BM and ALMOST always end up tanking when I am in a squad with barbs. Yes even the claw barbs. Surprisingly contradictory to what most people say, the few barbs who keep aggro from me are completely AXE/HAMMER. Not trying to argue that APS barbs are fail. Just speaking from my own experience that Dragon Bane+5.0 sparked and a Axe barb in true form kept his aggro.
(Dragon Bane= +25% crit and stacks with spark to remove the dmg dealt debuff )0 -
Breth - Lost City wrote: »Personally I am a 5 APS BM and ALMOST always end up tanking when I am in a squad with barbs. Yes even the claw barbs. Surprisingly contradictory to what most people say, the few barbs who keep aggro from me are completely AXE/HAMMER. Not trying to argue that APS barbs are fail. Just speaking from my own experience that Dragon Bane+5.0 sparked and a Axe barb in true form kept his aggro.
(Dragon Bane= +25% crit and stacks with spark to remove the dmg dealt debuff )
What kind of axes, and how long did that boss battle take? Because I don't know what kind of magic those barbs use to keep aggro, but I lost aggro to magic chars (hadn't even tried aps chars) before changing to claw.0 -
Breth - Lost City wrote: »Personally I am a 5 APS BM and ALMOST always end up tanking when I am in a squad with barbs. Yes even the claw barbs. Surprisingly contradictory to what most people say, the few barbs who keep aggro from me are completely AXE/HAMMER. Not trying to argue that APS barbs are fail. Just speaking from my own experience that Dragon Bane+5.0 sparked and a Axe barb in true form kept his aggro.
(Dragon Bane= +25% crit and stacks with spark to remove the dmg dealt debuff )
You have to take in account that we're talking about same geared characters.
A barb with +5 Deicides is not going to steal aggro unless he spams frenzy+demon BO constantly
Let alone tanking, cuz for that u'd need like +10[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
...i guarantee you, YOUR CHILDREN WILL NOT SEE THE DAY OF YOUR WHITE HAIRS...GOODBYE BLUE SKY (and PW too)
>RETIRED<0 -
Barbs with 14k hp in tiger, if fuzzy was here he would say "this thread saddens fuzzy. b:sad"BladedZero - Sanctuary
"Also I don't think actually playing through the game helps your skill either."
-And we wonder why this game has gone to hell b:cute0 -
Tagi_ - Dreamweaver wrote: »Thanks for the very detailed explanation I had thought that the whole 5aps barb craze was just your typical elitist bull but it seems there's some actual reasoning behind it(you can hardly blame me for thinking that the way everyone seems to act like an *** about the subject -_-).
I have one last question. Is it possible to start on the build for 5aps at my level? I realize I won't actually be able to get 5 aps for awhile but I'd rather not shell out however many coins to restat if I can just get it started now.
Here are my current stats. http://pwcalc.com/d149e354718c9628
The thing is, aps barbs that give up the ability of tank for the ability to dd really are fail. Aps barbs is about being able to do both better. That's why its such an endgame build, because endgame your vitality statpoints are a very small portion of your hp anyways and refines make up the bulk of it, so moving vitality into dexteriy doesn't lose a huge % of your total hp. Aim for aps too early and you won't have the hp to be the tank.
-int gear becomes more effective as you stack it. 1 piece of -.05 won't make much of a difference, but -.3 will. For instance going from 1.43 aps to 1.56 aps with one piece of -.05 means you gain 7.7% attacks and therefore damage. But going from 3.33 to 4.0 with one piece of -.05 int gear after you already have -.3 gear is a 20.1% increase in damage. It really doesn't do a whole lot to have just a little bit of -int gear but grows exponentially as you stack it.
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=766822 Post #9 is a list of the -int gear. Notice that not much exist boefre level 95 and most is at 99 or 100. You might try 80 dexterity base and then pump dex at 95+. This would be a dex heavy build but might save you from a larger reset. My advice is plan out your 99/100 aps barb gear but don't restat out your vitality until you refined that gear.
BTW, most since Devour gives 100% accuracy till the mob is dead, for most [?] bosses I have an accuracy of 93% on both my barb and bm. Since the first thing I do is Devour then pop human and spark my Barb has 100% accuracy meaning ~7% more of his attacks are landing. Consider that a damage boost for barbs over equally geared BMs. Even if they have fist mastery and we only have Poison Fang wood damage buff.Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory0 -
Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »The thing is, aps barbs that give up the ability of tank for the ability to dd really are fail. Aps barbs is about being able to do both better. That's why its such an endgame build, because endgame your vitality statpoints are a very small portion of your hp anyways and refines make up the bulk of it, so moving vitality into dexteriy doesn't lose a huge % of your total hp. Aim for aps too early and you won't have the hp to be the tank.
-int gear becomes more effective as you stack it. 1 piece of -.05 won't make much of a difference, but -.3 will. For instance going from 1.43 aps to 1.56 aps with one piece of -.05 means you gain 7.7% attacks and therefore damage. But going from 3.33 to 4.0 with one piece of -.05 int gear after you already have -.3 gear is a 20.1% increase in damage. It really doesn't do a whole lot to have just a little bit of -int gear but grows exponentially as you stack it.
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=766822 Post #9 is a list of the -int gear. Notice that not much exist boefre level 95 and most is at 99 or 100. You might try 80 dexterity base and then pump dex at 95+. This would be a dex heavy build but might save you from a larger reset. My advice is plan out your 99/100 aps barb gear but don't restat out your vitality until you refined that gear.
BTW, most since Devour gives 100% accuracy till the mob is dead, for most [?] bosses I have an accuracy of 93% on both my barb and bm. Since the first thing I do is Devour then pop human and spark my Barb has 100% accuracy meaning ~7% more of his attacks are landing. Consider that a damage boost for barbs over equally geared BMs. Even if they have fist mastery and we only have Poison Fang wood damage buff.
Pardon?
On the other note, I completely agree. I don't have a problem with claw barbs that don't completely destroy their other side of game play for our class. Barbs with 14k hp in tiger that say they can do anything are just fooling themselves. If you can't keep about 18k-20k in tiger then I really don't think you should be claws.BladedZero - Sanctuary
"Also I don't think actually playing through the game helps your skill either."
-And we wonder why this game has gone to hell b:cute0 -
Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »Pardon?
On the other note, I completely agree. I don't have a problem with claw barbs that don't completely destroy their other side of game play for our class. Barbs with 14k hp in tiger that say they can do anything are just fooling themselves. If you can't keep about 18k-20k in tiger then I really don't think you should be claws.
Beside harpy you dont need more than 14k in tiger to tank anything in this game.
The fact is, that restatting all the VIT into dex will lower your p.def and m.def quite significantly, that the main cons of the claw build IMO.
Anyway, with BP and high refines claws/equip you shouldnt be worried of anything pve related.
@DEVOUR/PENETRATE effect: yeah, its commonly known that in PVE if you land a devour/penetrate on the enemy then u will have 100% accuracy on it. Is not written anywhere that i know of, but it got discovered like 2 years ago by our fellow barbs.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
...i guarantee you, YOUR CHILDREN WILL NOT SEE THE DAY OF YOUR WHITE HAIRS...GOODBYE BLUE SKY (and PW too)
>RETIRED<0
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