Building the Ultimate Tank

... This is going to start some claw vs. axe only debate... again. The "If you want an aps char, roll a BM or Sin" comeback is kind of like telling a BM that if he wants to use his selfheal skill he should have rolled a cleric instead. Why shouldn't a barb use fists just because another class can also use fists? They're different classes. Different playstyles. Accomplish different things. Clawbarbs retain all the tankability of a barb and can still out DD a BM if played right. Claws only add to the versatility and playability of a barb. Anyway...


I don't think pwi will ever make fists a BM only weapon. People have been saying that for two years. Europe PWI tried it. PWI seems to have no interest in it.

I think you are confusing "tank barb" with "vit barb."



Since most aps gear is 90+ I wish they'd make sage/demon culti choice be 100+ so new barbs like this could realize competing for aggro with an aps character only hurts the squad. If they want to tank, they will. If they don't, they'll unequip their weapon and pull of their blessing and half their gear so barbs could feel "IRTank!"


The "tank barb" for PvE is a fist build. They use axes, alot. They use tiger form, alot. They use fists, alot. They give up about 1500 hp, but usually have a much easier time farming the gear and coin to make up the difference.

If you go Vit build then you'll be popular for FCC pre level 90 and Delta's later on as a puller for both. After level 90 most FCC squads will still be happy with any puller, but given the option would choose a claw barb because they can pull, tank, and dd where a vit barb can only pull. Sage get more hp and defense which is great for pulls but doesn't help as much for bosses since alot of endgame sagebarbs standup to DD at bosses. Demon has the better skills for when the pull is over and they need to kill the mobs/hold aggro. Demon roar adds a bramble that is stronger than even demon bramble for 15 seconds (overwrites bramble and you will need a rebuff, but it means you have bramble even when a veno isn't in squad). Sunder is a 100% crit rate and will make your next 1-2 attacks crits also. Demon Sunder is a beast of a skill and can hit almost as hard as an Armageddon. Demon Sunder can also guarantee your arma is 100% crits. I also prefer demon Beastial Rage for pulls because most mobs won't last longer than 5 seconds anyways, so getting more chi in that 5 seconds is best.

For culti as a vit barb you may as well pick it on your squad buffs. Other than that your main purpose is to Devour/Pentrate Armor for the tank. If you consider Sage assume you'll be DDing in human form while a Sin or BM tanks. Sage has a better PA which is awesome. If you go demon you'll have more DD in tiger form than a sage would have in tiger or human form, as well as a devour that last 15 seconds so you don't need to waste chi as often spamming it.

I wouldn't consider FR in your culti choice because it won't actually pull aggro for more than half a second and often causes the boss to move. This means the aps tank has to move too, losing DD and often bloodpaint heals so by FRing you are hurting alot more than helping. Devour is the most useful skill a vit barb has because they can lower attack levels and increase paint heals, as well as speed up how fast a boss dies meaning the tank (sin, bm, tanking clawbarb) doesn't have to fight as long.

Congratulations to those rushing to defend claw built barbs: You failed reading comprehension. He specifically said he won't consider claws. There's nothing wrong with wanting to use a class as it was designed.

On topic: For a true vitality tank build, you're better off going sage. Demon skills generally are worse for PvE for the barb, with the exception of True Form, which blows the sage version out of the water. You're not the DD in the squad, you're the tank. Survivability and steady damage is more important than relying on fancy crits to help hold aggro. Sage barbs can have very high defense and hit points. They'll rely a lot on accuracy gear and damage increases to compensate for their weaknesses, however. You'll miss like it's a good career move (this is probably why the main aggro skill is auto-hit).

Anything that a claw barb could use to boost his HP to tanking levels are also available to vit build.

I understand anything beyond flawless is overpriced as hell, but it bothers me to stick flawless into gear that can hold gems of several levels higher.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

There is something wrong with playing a class as its designed if the way its designed is broken. If your car is designed to drive but is currently broken you wouldn't continue to hop in it each day and pretend to drive to work, then explain to your boss that you continue to do things that way because your car is designed to drive. Barb aggro mechanics don't work. Barbs have to adapt. Not adapting is stupid.

Adapting to what, APS sins and bms? The APS is what's broken. Seriously, you have a combination of equipment that generates so much damage it can subsist on a small damage absorption to heal, overwhelms the tank's ability to hold aggro, and can demolish even the Palace of Nirvana in a handful of minutes. Having the ridiculous attainable attack speed be to blame sounds more reasonable than barbs, archers, wizards, psychics, clerics, venomancers, and mystics being broken.

I understand that as it sits, these particular builds pretty much don't need any other classes to support them. If you want an effective character that can do just about anything, I cannot argue that that would be the way to go.

However, you also need to understand that he wants to fulfill the tank slot of a classical group. There's no need to adapt to a playstyle he doesn't enjoy; he wants to tank while a cleric heals him and a varied group of DDs kill the monster. Attacking him because he has a different playstyle is not constructive, especially when he specifically states he doesn't want that.

I assume you would agree that telling another person that he's playing a game wrong, and should instead play the game in a way he doesn't want to, is rude and disrespectful.

Jeigo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The APS is what's broken. Seriously, you have a combination of equipment that generates so much damage it can subsist on a small damage absorption to heal, overwhelms the tank's ability to hold aggro, and can demolish even the Palace of Nirvana in a handful of minutes.

I can agree with that.

Jeigo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I understand that as it sits, these particular builds pretty much don't need any other classes to support them.

Doesn't that validate my argument that it is a better option for tanking? I'm not arguing that in pvp or in TW you give up alot by going claw build. I would even consider the vit build or a strength build superior in many cases of pvp. I'm just saying in pve you only gain tankability, survivability, and aggro ability and really give up nothing. He wants the ultimate tank build, and clawbarbs are it.

Jeigo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I assume you would agree that telling another person that he's playing a game wrong, and should instead play the game in a way he doesn't want to, is rude and disrespectful.

Sure. I agree that each person can play however they want. But he is in the forums looking for advice on how to be the most effective barb he can be. He is also very disrespectful to clawbarbs for playing the game how they want.

Jeigo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

However, you also need to understand that he wants to fulfill the tank slot of a classical group. There's no need to adapt to a playstyle he doesn't enjoy; he wants to tank while a cleric heals him and a varied group of DDs kill the monster.

I'm suggesting he try it. Statting for claws does give you the option of playing the classical way or the modern way. Its up to the player. Not statting for claws sticks the player in a very narrow field of playability with no versatility. I suggest he do both, that way he can play however he likes.

What OP mean by ultimate tank = barbarian that can withstand lots damage (not keeping aggro)
please understand tyrant b:thanks

*Sigh* arrogance and lack of attention to the man's desires. I see that too often these days.

Advice for the path ahead? First off, lose the the accuracy shards. I'm serious. I'm an ax barb, I have the same rings you do. At the moment, I actually have a little less dex. I hit more than enough to tank and/or DD, so those sockets are better used to increase your damage. Damage matters in aggro.

Weapon choice: Good plan short term. Long term, unless you get R9, I'd go for the second cast nirvana poleax instead of R8. Two reasons why. +20 attack level, and better damage. The extra damage will help with aggro.

Sage/Demon: Since you want to go tank, not damage or APS, sage is the way to go. Better HP, better def, more efficient chi use/recovery, and a major uptick in ability to survive alone when your cleric dies (remember, ax barb mentality here, not APS). Plus when you do the math, the extra damage from sage covers almost all of the difference if you were to go demon. As for human form, in those few times you'll use it, your base damage will actually be higher.

Get your main skills maxed, and when you go sage/demon, get the sage/demon version as soon as you can afford them. It will help you hold aggro. And while spamming FR is a must, don't forget to use Devour, and use it often. Remember, it draws aggro too, and when Flesh Ream is used after, the bleed effect is increased. More aggro. Use Surf Impact and (unless you're watching to cancel) Alacrity to build more chi between uses of FR. Chi pots or the genie skill is a really good idea too for those times you need them.

Holding aggro from the APS people will never be easy. Sometimes, you won't be able to. But the above, I think, will help you hold aggro longer, better, and more often.

Good hunting to you.

P.S. Personally, I preach 3 str per level regardless, but that's me.

IBaMBii - Heavens Tear wrote: »

...I won't even begin to get started but to just say I pity barbs who are closed minded and, "VIT BARB THIS, BIT BARB THAT."

All I'm going to say, I will much enjoy being able to tank over you, farm 10000x more than you without charging, getting the fast farming squads, and being with full end game gear, having the same hp or 18k+ standing and still tanking. Not to mention being able to kill you in pvp, very easily.

All because I'm claw.

b:bye

I dont understand why you are talking **** about vit barbs, I **** you in the mouth every time in PVP! Pure vit FTW? I can kill sins in 2-3 hits and tank the damage without a worry.... I can spark and do more damage within the 15 seconds more than a claw barb to... To the OP rock on buddy rock on! Fuzzy will be proud!

Jeigo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Adapting to what, APS sins and bms? The APS is what's broken. Seriously, you have a combination of equipment that generates so much damage it can subsist on a small damage absorption to heal, overwhelms the tank's ability to hold aggro, and can demolish even the Palace of Nirvana in a handful of minutes. Having the ridiculous attainable attack speed be to blame sounds more reasonable than barbs, archers, wizards, psychics, clerics, venomancers, and mystics being broken.

you need to quit arguing about what is broken, and start accepting how things are. I believe we should be far past the arguement of what is good or bad for the game, and start focusing on how to adapt to the way things are now.

i'll use Sakubatou's car concept analogy but tweek it a little...

Its like having a Model T Ford, in a group full of vipers, corvettes, mustangs, lambos etc.
sure its a classic and might even turn heads, but no one is going to want to drive it anywhere with you because it is so ancient and unreliable. yes it can drive, but so much slower and so much less efficiently that you're only group of people you'll be able to get to help you, are other people with ancient cars, and the Flintstones arnt winning many races :P

Jeigo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I understand that as it sits, these particular builds pretty much don't need any other classes to support them. If you want an effective character that can do just about anything, I cannot argue that that would be the way to go.

kay

Jeigo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

However, you also need to understand that he wants to fulfill the tank slot of a classical group. There's no need to adapt to a playstyle he doesn't enjoy; he wants to tank while a cleric heals him and a varied group of DDs kill the monster. Attacking him because he has a different playstyle is not constructive, especially when he specifically states he doesn't want that.

he won't be tanking, he won't have agro, and if there is a cleric, it will be healing the BM or the sin. cuz they WILL have the agro. if he wants to TANK that means he has to have damage with which to tank from right? and if he wants to be taking damage, he has to have agro right?

if he wants to play a class that doesnt take agro and won't be necessary to tank, maybe instead of a barb he should make a cleric, they are harder to find anyway and maybe then he'll be accepted into a squad more often.

Jeigo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I assume you would agree that telling another person that he's playing a game wrong, and should instead play the game in a way he doesn't want to, is rude and disrespectful.

I would assume you would agree that telling a person he can be an army general one day even tho he's deaf dumb and blind is misleading, inappropriate, and unrealistic.


good fight by the way

No one has said what he would be losing aggro against. Everything? Everyone? APS sins and BMs? No one's really said wizard or any class other than BM and sin, so I'm guessing the actual crux of it is vit barb vs. aps. I won't argue that; you're absolutely right. The vitality barb is utterly worthless against APS.

Even if he can't hold aggro against an APS character without claws, though, there are still a large number of people of all classes who prefer the classic approach. Even if their choice of build means they'll need 6 people instead of 2 other sins, they do this because they think it's FUN.

These people would much prefer to have a classic tank barb rather than a controversial claw one. These people also would not go APS, since it destroys the group dynamic. Just last night I saw an assassin advertising his non-APS status to join a conventional nirvana group. There are groups that WANT to play this way, even if it's not optimized (sounds like a build conversation on a D&D forum).

ON TOPIC:

Have you considered (probably, yes) working in a Jone's Blessing into your build? The +30% damage should help offset your offensive weakness.

Also, I don't think arrows work if they're not with a bow, so a +crit arrow won't help.

Tiageos - Sanctuary wrote: »

ok, so maybe my first post was a bit strong about not converting to claws and losing access to my skills...

Don't worry Tiageos, that post wasn't directed at you. It was the level 62 barb posting telling some of the better 100+ barbs out there about how a barb should be played at 100+.

So if all you plan to do is Delta, Vit barb is the way to go. It does concern me that there were mobs still alive when you went for your next pull since that means your DD wasn't great, but low dd is better than dead dd.

I'd still recommend demon for most things. The damage difference human to tiger form really only is about 12% (demon titans is worse than sage titans, but demon poison fang is better) but the skill options hold aggro better. Sage ream holds onto chi better, but demon ream is more spammable for better aggro. Sage sunder gives hp, demon Sunder gives instant hp (kind of a drawback sometimes, instead of heal over time) but demon Sunder hits like a beast and can be combo'd with other skills. Sage beastial rage lasts longer but most mobs die before its over and demon Beastial Rage gives you more chi in that short time period. Sage Devour may give you chi 1/4 of the time but you have to spam it twice as often, Demon Devour you need to use half as often so you can spam FR more. Sage PA is awesome if tanking in human form. Sage BKI is good for buffing alts or people leaving your squad, Demon BKI is useful as a chi barb. Sage Titans gives 10% more base weapon attack all the time, Demon Titans can give a higher dps increase 1 minute at a time by giving the 5% crit bonus. Sage Arma is safer, Demon arma is stronger (personally, I consider demon safer if everything around me dies). Sage Beastial Onslaught is kind of a joke, Demon BO is pure sex but more of a pvp move, although its nice to have a 35% crit increase with one of your only ranged skills.

I get that the game has changed alot. The average gear is better now, midgame and endgame. This means the tanks are tankier and the DDs are DDier. In my experience that means the tanks no longer need as much vitality statted because they have the gear to cover them. DDs have better weapons and gear too, and now don't mind tanking as much which is good because its easier to pull aggro now. A team player barb now is one that asks "who is tanking" and then assists a DD if they want to. Your example of the BM pulling aggro was a good one, since maybe if he had the cleric heal stack instead of you there wouldn't have been a wipe.

Anyway, Barbs have enough hp and defense now to be perfectly fine in pve without a single vit point added as long as they cover it with gear. Vitality has become optional and more of a buffer. I'd say 16k endgame is more than a barb needs to do anything pve and that can be achieved with 3 vitality and mediocre refines. Beyond that is all cushion and comfort level, which is nice for a cleric not to worry about having to heal a barb so much.

I'd say the biggest worry for a cleric is not normally the barbs hp but can they hold aggro. That's why I went with a str/dex build on my barb till 99. I kept my gear up so I wasn't short on hp but I also backed it up with damage. Seemed the best way to tank, and I think it was. Auto attacking with axes I stole aggro from some vit barbs spamming ream/devour.



And please, don't always blame the DD. My Bm wasn't highly refined in his 80's but killing pole I would unequip my wrists to lower my aps, and unequip my blessing. Sometimes I'd still steal aggro from barbs so I'd unequip my fists, too. I'd still steal aggro with no weapon, no blessing, no wristguards. Now I was in a bad situation because half my gear is unequipped and I'm tanking.

Another example is my sin doing his fb at level 60. I did the normal shout for high levels and got a 100 sage vit barb to "tank". I had -int wristguards and a jones blessing, but the barb had 40 levels on me and Pan Gu's Giant Axe +7 or something. I had level 56 daggers +3 and only a double spark and he couldn't keep aggro off me so I tanked my own fb at level 60. It was easier than damage modifying just to have the cleric heal me.

Those are example of fail barbs and why I don't consider high hp what makes a tank. Personally, holding aggro and staying alive are my only requirements for a tank.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Don't worry Tiageos, that post wasn't directed at you. It was the level 62 barb posting telling some of the better 100+ barbs out there about how a barb should be played at 100+.

You're trolling. I'd like you to point out where I told anyone how a barb should be played. Looking over my posts, I merely defended how the OP wants to play his barb. You're reading tone and arrogance that is simply not there. There's no need to take offense to a different opinion; just because I don't want to play a claw barb doesn't mean I think claw barbs are wrong.

dam.. u guys write too much b:shocked