Building the Ultimate Tank

Tiageos - Sanctuary

Ok, first off I will state a couple of things, just so that there isn't any confusion.
1. I am a tank barb. I am not a BM. Do not offer suggestions for fist/claw. I can't wait for the day that those get restricted to BM's only.
2. I don't give a rats *** about APS. As I stated above, I'm a tank barb.
3. I haven't seriously played this toon in over a year. (Since we got enough APS noobs that don't know how to control aggro and decide it's my fault they fail.)
4. I was originally designing this character to be the ultimate tank. I still have that in mind as my ultimate goal.

Now, unfortunately, pwcalc isn't saving my updates to my build, so here's the most recent one I've got.
http://pwcalc.com/c07dda2efd70764d (personally I'm not even sure that link will work because pwcalc is giving me issues in all the browsers I've tried.)
Currently I have replaced the cape with a cape of Tauran Chieftan that has 4 Flawless Citrines and is +2. Aside from that it's still essentially the same.

I am currently looking to go with the Mountcrasher set for the 90's and then later to a mix of Rank 8 and TT99 Gold.
For weapon choices, I plan to make the Calloused Lionheart Hatchets and then follow that with the Rank 8 Weapon.
I am a tank build, as you may be able to see by my stat distribution in the pwcalc, and as you have gathered from my working above in this post.

Originally (way back in the day) I was planning to go Sage. Now, I'm not so certain as to which path I should be taking. Assuming that they do eventually roll out the changes that are taking place in PW-CN beta servers, most of you fist barbs will become obsolete again in the PvE arena. (Like you were ever really barbs to begin with, go roll a BM/Sin).
Anyway, Demon has it's advantages too. I spend about 80-90% of my time in tiger form tanking instances like Delta, TT and FCC. I don't really care about PvP other than that I may someday pull a cata in TW.

I am asking for your opinions, based on the information I have provided, which path is going to be the best choice for being the best tank?

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

... This is going to start some claw vs. axe only debate... again. The "If you want an aps char, roll a BM or Sin" comeback is kind of like telling a BM that if he wants to use his selfheal skill he should have rolled a cleric instead. Why shouldn't a barb use fists just because another class can also use fists? They're different classes. Different playstyles. Accomplish different things. Clawbarbs retain all the tankability of a barb and can still out DD a BM if played right. Claws only add to the versatility and playability of a barb. Anyway...


I don't think pwi will ever make fists a BM only weapon. People have been saying that for two years. Europe PWI tried it. PWI seems to have no interest in it.

I think you are confusing "tank barb" with "vit barb."



Since most aps gear is 90+ I wish they'd make sage/demon culti choice be 100+ so new barbs like this could realize competing for aggro with an aps character only hurts the squad. If they want to tank, they will. If they don't, they'll unequip their weapon and pull of their blessing and half their gear so barbs could feel "IRTank!"


The "tank barb" for PvE is a fist build. They use axes, alot. They use tiger form, alot. They use fists, alot. They give up about 1500 hp, but usually have a much easier time farming the gear and coin to make up the difference.

If you go Vit build then you'll be popular for FCC pre level 90 and Delta's later on as a puller for both. After level 90 most FCC squads will still be happy with any puller, but given the option would choose a claw barb because they can pull, tank, and dd where a vit barb can only pull. Sage get more hp and defense which is great for pulls but doesn't help as much for bosses since alot of endgame sagebarbs standup to DD at bosses. Demon has the better skills for when the pull is over and they need to kill the mobs/hold aggro. Demon roar adds a bramble that is stronger than even demon bramble for 15 seconds (overwrites bramble and you will need a rebuff, but it means you have bramble even when a veno isn't in squad). Sunder is a 100% crit rate and will make your next 1-2 attacks crits also. Demon Sunder is a beast of a skill and can hit almost as hard as an Armageddon. Demon Sunder can also guarantee your arma is 100% crits. I also prefer demon Beastial Rage for pulls because most mobs won't last longer than 5 seconds anyways, so getting more chi in that 5 seconds is best.

For culti as a vit barb you may as well pick it on your squad buffs. Other than that your main purpose is to Devour/Pentrate Armor for the tank. If you consider Sage assume you'll be DDing in human form while a Sin or BM tanks. Sage has a better PA which is awesome. If you go demon you'll have more DD in tiger form than a sage would have in tiger or human form, as well as a devour that last 15 seconds so you don't need to waste chi as often spamming it.

I wouldn't consider FR in your culti choice because it won't actually pull aggro for more than half a second and often causes the boss to move. This means the aps tank has to move too, losing DD and often bloodpaint heals so by FRing you are hurting alot more than helping. Devour is the most useful skill a vit barb has because they can lower attack levels and increase paint heals, as well as speed up how fast a boss dies meaning the tank (sin, bm, tanking clawbarb) doesn't have to fight as long.

IBaMBii - Heavens Tear

...I won't even begin to get started but to just say I pity barbs who are closed minded and, "VIT BARB THIS, BIT BARB THAT."

All I'm going to say, I will much enjoy being able to tank over you, farm 10000x more than you without charging, getting the fast farming squads, and being with full end game gear, having the same hp or 18k+ standing and still tanking. Not to mention being able to kill you in pvp, very easily.

All because I'm claw.

b:bye

Jeigo - Dreamweaver

Congratulations to those rushing to defend claw built barbs: You failed reading comprehension. He specifically said he won't consider claws. There's nothing wrong with wanting to use a class as it was designed.

On topic: For a true vitality tank build, you're better off going sage. Demon skills generally are worse for PvE for the barb, with the exception of True Form, which blows the sage version out of the water. You're not the DD in the squad, you're the tank. Survivability and steady damage is more important than relying on fancy crits to help hold aggro. Sage barbs can have very high defense and hit points. They'll rely a lot on accuracy gear and damage increases to compensate for their weaknesses, however. You'll miss like it's a good career move (this is probably why the main aggro skill is auto-hit).

Anything that a claw barb could use to boost his HP to tanking levels are also available to vit build.

I understand anything beyond flawless is overpriced as hell, but it bothers me to stick flawless into gear that can hold gems of several levels higher.

Doom_Panda - Harshlands

I'd say... Go sage if your planning on doing TW Sage offers: Increased Defense from True Form, Increased HP for BKI,Sage Roar is useful for decreasing the opponents Attack Power (Along with Frighten which is useful for because of the 33% chance to stun), and then theres Bestial Rage for extended duration to gain chi.

Tiageos - Sanctuary

Jeigo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Congratulations to those rushing to defend claw built barbs: You failed reading comprehension. He specifically said he won't consider claws. There's nothing wrong with wanting to use a class as it was designed.
...

Exactly. Thank you

IBaMBii - Heavens Tear wrote: »

...I won't even begin to get started but to just say I pity barbs who are closed minded and, "VIT BARB THIS, BIT BARB THAT."

All I'm going to say, I will much enjoy being able to tank over you, farm 10000x more than you without charging, getting the fast farming squads, and being with full end game gear, having the same hp or 18k+ standing and still tanking. Not to mention being able to kill you in pvp, very easily.

All because I'm claw.

b:bye

I'm not building it for PvP, so I won't go against you, and I'm not pretending to be a BM like you are. Ever notice how your skills don't work when you use claws?
Although, with a greatly increased defense, and the ability to use my skills, maybe I could kick your *** in PvP when I'm up at your level with pro gear. All you've got is a fail auto attack with claws. Roll a Bm. Then you can have skills with your claws.



For the rest, thank you for your knowledgeable responses. I was originally thinking Sage, primarily because I am on a PvE server, I do the big pulls in FCC and Delta, and when I do TW, I plan to be a cata puller.
Hell even now my Tiger skills are maxed and my human skills are behind because I never use them.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Wow, this thread went fail quick.

Jeigo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Congratulations to those rushing to defend claw built barbs: You failed reading comprehension. He specifically said he won't consider claws. There's nothing wrong with wanting to use a class as it was designed.

You obviously fail at reading comprehension. He asked for a tanking build. Yes, he stated he wouldn't consider fists but then showed a very poor understanding of barb endgame so two people tried to persuade him that he could be a better tank and more useful squadmate using axes and fists. Got something more hiding behind that level 62 avatar or do you want to tell me some more about barbs at endgame?

There is something wrong with playing a class as its designed if the way its designed is broken. If your car is designed to drive but is currently broken you wouldn't continue to hop in it each day and pretend to drive to work, then explain to your boss that you continue to do things that way because your car is designed to drive. Barb aggro mechanics don't work. Barbs have to adapt. Not adapting is stupid.

I gave him an honest assessment: If he wants to tank anything he should go fists. If he wants to be useful as a barb he should go fists. If he doesn't he will be little more than a buff **** and a debuffer for whoever is tanking, as well as a general leech on the squad. He'll still be useful as a puller, and I gave my opinion of sage vs. demon there. I then gave him some tips for sage vs demon in squads and how to be a good vit barb when others are tanking.

Doom_Panda - Harshlands wrote: »

I'd say... Go sage if your planning on doing TW Sage offers: Increased Defense from True Form, Increased HP for BKI,Sage Roar is useful for decreasing the opponents Attack Power (Along with Frighten which is useful for because of the 33% chance to stun), and then theres Bestial Rage for extended duration to gain chi.

Honest post, but it's demon Frighten that has the chance to stun (20%). Sage Frighten is a chance to freeze (33%).

Jeigo - Dreamweaver

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

There is something wrong with playing a class as its designed if the way its designed is broken. If your car is designed to drive but is currently broken you wouldn't continue to hop in it each day and pretend to drive to work, then explain to your boss that you continue to do things that way because your car is designed to drive. Barb aggro mechanics don't work. Barbs have to adapt. Not adapting is stupid.

Adapting to what, APS sins and bms? The APS is what's broken. Seriously, you have a combination of equipment that generates so much damage it can subsist on a small damage absorption to heal, overwhelms the tank's ability to hold aggro, and can demolish even the Palace of Nirvana in a handful of minutes. Having the ridiculous attainable attack speed be to blame sounds more reasonable than barbs, archers, wizards, psychics, clerics, venomancers, and mystics being broken.

I understand that as it sits, these particular builds pretty much don't need any other classes to support them. If you want an effective character that can do just about anything, I cannot argue that that would be the way to go.

However, you also need to understand that he wants to fulfill the tank slot of a classical group. There's no need to adapt to a playstyle he doesn't enjoy; he wants to tank while a cleric heals him and a varied group of DDs kill the monster. Attacking him because he has a different playstyle is not constructive, especially when he specifically states he doesn't want that.

I assume you would agree that telling another person that he's playing a game wrong, and should instead play the game in a way he doesn't want to, is rude and disrespectful.

RoidAbuse - Sanctuary

go fist.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Jeigo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The APS is what's broken. Seriously, you have a combination of equipment that generates so much damage it can subsist on a small damage absorption to heal, overwhelms the tank's ability to hold aggro, and can demolish even the Palace of Nirvana in a handful of minutes.

I can agree with that.

Jeigo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I understand that as it sits, these particular builds pretty much don't need any other classes to support them.

Doesn't that validate my argument that it is a better option for tanking? I'm not arguing that in pvp or in TW you give up alot by going claw build. I would even consider the vit build or a strength build superior in many cases of pvp. I'm just saying in pve you only gain tankability, survivability, and aggro ability and really give up nothing. He wants the ultimate tank build, and clawbarbs are it.

Jeigo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I assume you would agree that telling another person that he's playing a game wrong, and should instead play the game in a way he doesn't want to, is rude and disrespectful.

Sure. I agree that each person can play however they want. But he is in the forums looking for advice on how to be the most effective barb he can be. He is also very disrespectful to clawbarbs for playing the game how they want.

Jeigo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

However, you also need to understand that he wants to fulfill the tank slot of a classical group. There's no need to adapt to a playstyle he doesn't enjoy; he wants to tank while a cleric heals him and a varied group of DDs kill the monster.

I'm suggesting he try it. Statting for claws does give you the option of playing the classical way or the modern way. Its up to the player. Not statting for claws sticks the player in a very narrow field of playability with no versatility. I suggest he do both, that way he can play however he likes.

BloodTyrant - Raging Tide

Tiageos - Sanctuary wrote: »

1. I am a tank barb. I am not a BM. Do not offer suggestions for fist/claw. I can't wait for the day that those get restricted to BM's only.

first: pwi will never restrict only for bms, cause they win a lot of money with barbs going for claw/fist, and *** youb:kiss

Tiageos - Sanctuary wrote: »

2. I don't give a rats *** about APS. As I stated above, I'm a tank barb.

i don't give a sht to you!

Tiageos - Sanctuary wrote: »

3. I haven't seriously played this toon in over a year. (Since we got enough APS noobs that don't know how to control aggro and decide it's my fault they fail.)

you can't get aggro from a sin 90+ using only flesh ream and some others skills, give up or go aps barb!

Tiageos - Sanctuary wrote: »

4. I was originally designing this character to be the ultimate tank. I still have that in mind as my ultimate goal.

i beat your "ultimate tank barb" EASILY with my ultimate 3.33 bare handb:kiss

MoonUsagi - Heavens Tear

What OP mean by ultimate tank = barbarian that can withstand lots damage (not keeping aggro)
please understand tyrant b:thanks

Doom_Panda - Harshlands

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Honest post, but it's demon Frighten that has the chance to stun (20%). Sage Frighten is a chance to freeze (33%).

Wasn't paying attention lol.

Conalll - Archosaur

*Sigh* arrogance and lack of attention to the man's desires. I see that too often these days.

Advice for the path ahead? First off, lose the the accuracy shards. I'm serious. I'm an ax barb, I have the same rings you do. At the moment, I actually have a little less dex. I hit more than enough to tank and/or DD, so those sockets are better used to increase your damage. Damage matters in aggro.

Weapon choice: Good plan short term. Long term, unless you get R9, I'd go for the second cast nirvana poleax instead of R8. Two reasons why. +20 attack level, and better damage. The extra damage will help with aggro.

Sage/Demon: Since you want to go tank, not damage or APS, sage is the way to go. Better HP, better def, more efficient chi use/recovery, and a major uptick in ability to survive alone when your cleric dies (remember, ax barb mentality here, not APS). Plus when you do the math, the extra damage from sage covers almost all of the difference if you were to go demon. As for human form, in those few times you'll use it, your base damage will actually be higher.

Get your main skills maxed, and when you go sage/demon, get the sage/demon version as soon as you can afford them. It will help you hold aggro. And while spamming FR is a must, don't forget to use Devour, and use it often. Remember, it draws aggro too, and when Flesh Ream is used after, the bleed effect is increased. More aggro. Use Surf Impact and (unless you're watching to cancel) Alacrity to build more chi between uses of FR. Chi pots or the genie skill is a really good idea too for those times you need them.

Holding aggro from the APS people will never be easy. Sometimes, you won't be able to. But the above, I think, will help you hold aggro longer, better, and more often.

Good hunting to you.

P.S. Personally, I preach 3 str per level regardless, but that's me.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Conalll - Archosaur wrote: »

And while spamming FR is a must, don't forget to use Devour, and use it often. Remember, it draws aggro too, and when Flesh Ream is used after, the bleed effect is increased.

While I barbs that use devour while I tank, If you're trying to hold aggro off a DD then Devour will help DDs pull it from you alot more than it would help you keep it. Remember, devour is 50% pdef debuff which is about a 30-35% dmg increase. If they're doing 100k+ dps and it increases them to 135k+ dps, and you are doing 15k dps and it increases you to 20k dps they gain the obvious advantage in aggro.

Starsteel - Heavens Tear

IBaMBii - Heavens Tear wrote: »

...I won't even begin to get started but to just say I pity barbs who are closed minded and, "VIT BARB THIS, BIT BARB THAT."

All I'm going to say, I will much enjoy being able to tank over you, farm 10000x more than you without charging, getting the fast farming squads, and being with full end game gear, having the same hp or 18k+ standing and still tanking. Not to mention being able to kill you in pvp, very easily.

All because I'm claw.

b:bye

I dont understand why you are talking **** about vit barbs, I **** you in the mouth every time in PVP! Pure vit FTW? I can kill sins in 2-3 hits and tank the damage without a worry.... I can spark and do more damage within the 15 seconds more than a claw barb to... To the OP rock on buddy rock on! Fuzzy will be proud!

BloodTyrant - Raging Tide

MoonUsagi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

What OP mean by ultimate tank = barbarian that can withstand lots damage (not keeping aggro)
please understand tyrant b:thanks

even being fist barb i still can withstand lots of dmg in tw as cata, and keep pve aggro from a +10 sin
i was just a bit upset cause this guy, still low lvl and already talking sht about our choice in being aps b:cry

BadBarb - Lost City

Jeigo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Adapting to what, APS sins and bms? The APS is what's broken. Seriously, you have a combination of equipment that generates so much damage it can subsist on a small damage absorption to heal, overwhelms the tank's ability to hold aggro, and can demolish even the Palace of Nirvana in a handful of minutes. Having the ridiculous attainable attack speed be to blame sounds more reasonable than barbs, archers, wizards, psychics, clerics, venomancers, and mystics being broken.

you need to quit arguing about what is broken, and start accepting how things are. I believe we should be far past the arguement of what is good or bad for the game, and start focusing on how to adapt to the way things are now.

i'll use Sakubatou's car concept analogy but tweek it a little...

Its like having a Model T Ford, in a group full of vipers, corvettes, mustangs, lambos etc.
sure its a classic and might even turn heads, but no one is going to want to drive it anywhere with you because it is so ancient and unreliable. yes it can drive, but so much slower and so much less efficiently that you're only group of people you'll be able to get to help you, are other people with ancient cars, and the Flintstones arnt winning many races :P

Jeigo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I understand that as it sits, these particular builds pretty much don't need any other classes to support them. If you want an effective character that can do just about anything, I cannot argue that that would be the way to go.

kay

Jeigo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

However, you also need to understand that he wants to fulfill the tank slot of a classical group. There's no need to adapt to a playstyle he doesn't enjoy; he wants to tank while a cleric heals him and a varied group of DDs kill the monster. Attacking him because he has a different playstyle is not constructive, especially when he specifically states he doesn't want that.

he won't be tanking, he won't have agro, and if there is a cleric, it will be healing the BM or the sin. cuz they WILL have the agro. if he wants to TANK that means he has to have damage with which to tank from right? and if he wants to be taking damage, he has to have agro right?

if he wants to play a class that doesnt take agro and won't be necessary to tank, maybe instead of a barb he should make a cleric, they are harder to find anyway and maybe then he'll be accepted into a squad more often.

Jeigo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I assume you would agree that telling another person that he's playing a game wrong, and should instead play the game in a way he doesn't want to, is rude and disrespectful.

I would assume you would agree that telling a person he can be an army general one day even tho he's deaf dumb and blind is misleading, inappropriate, and unrealistic.


good fight by the way

Cybetron - Raging Tide

BadBarb - Lost City wrote: »

I would assume you would agree that telling a person he can be an army general one day even tho he's deaf dumb and blind is misleading, inappropriate, and unrealistic.

I like that statement. To the OP: I am NOT getting into a discussion of claw vs vit barbs. Go Demon because
(a) most of the damage you receive in deltas, fc, zhen, and events is physical - and demon roar is the perfect attack against this type of damage
(b) by being demon you can pull cata and STILL stand up and deliver a punch to any DD that crosses your path. I know that might appear funny but a little bit of overwhelming crits and spike damage is worth the small loss in hp and pdef (mind you the extra pdef that you get in sage form WILL NOT BE A FACTOR because of diminishing returns).

Carry on with the claw vs vit discussion... as entertaining as the other threads that deal with the same topic... *grabs popcorn*

Jeigo - Dreamweaver

No one has said what he would be losing aggro against. Everything? Everyone? APS sins and BMs? No one's really said wizard or any class other than BM and sin, so I'm guessing the actual crux of it is vit barb vs. aps. I won't argue that; you're absolutely right. The vitality barb is utterly worthless against APS.

Even if he can't hold aggro against an APS character without claws, though, there are still a large number of people of all classes who prefer the classic approach. Even if their choice of build means they'll need 6 people instead of 2 other sins, they do this because they think it's FUN.

These people would much prefer to have a classic tank barb rather than a controversial claw one. These people also would not go APS, since it destroys the group dynamic. Just last night I saw an assassin advertising his non-APS status to join a conventional nirvana group. There are groups that WANT to play this way, even if it's not optimized (sounds like a build conversation on a D&D forum).

ON TOPIC:

Have you considered (probably, yes) working in a Jone's Blessing into your build? The +30% damage should help offset your offensive weakness.

Also, I don't think arrows work if they're not with a bow, so a +crit arrow won't help.

Conalll - Archosaur

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

While I barbs that use devour while I tank, If you're trying to hold aggro off a DD then Devour will help DDs pull it from you alot more than it would help you keep it. Remember, devour is 50% pdef debuff which is about a 30-35% dmg increase. If they're doing 100k+ dps and it increases them to 135k+ dps, and you are doing 15k dps and it increases you to 20k dps they gain the obvious advantage in aggro.

You'd think that, and common wisdom would agree. But all I know is when I use FR only, sometimes it's not enough. When I add Devour to the mix, it is.

Don't ask me why it works. It just dose.

Tiageos - Sanctuary

ok, so maybe my first post was a bit strong about not converting to claws and losing access to my skills.

Here's what I'm looking at. I started playing in early 2009, APS wasn't the problem that it's become now, and everyone pretty much played their class the way it was designed. (Although there were some extreme HA veno tanks, but you get the good and bad with all of those. net a few that knew what they were doing, met one that didn't even know what a pet was.b:chuckle) The barbs job was to take the brunt of the damage. That's why we have such high HP and defense.

My goal when I set out, (As it is with every MMO I play), is to be the best of my class. Or to play the class pure. Same difference. If I were to build a wizard, it would be a pure MAG Wizard. Research shows that this is 1 point to STR, and 9 point to MAG every two levels. You make up for the weaknesses of the class by using garnets to shard to Pdef and refining your gear for added HP.

As a barb, back in my 70's (god that was forever ago, it's been sol long since I played), GH's were new and I found myself in FB59 ALL the time doing dailies. Because the bosses in there are almost pure magic, I carried two sets of gear. One that was sharded with Citrines for everyday tanking, and one that was sharded with saphires for using against all of those magic bosses.

I'm good at spamming flesh ream and devour, and I typically got comments on how well I tanked and held aggro. I've even got Cloud Eruption on my genie so that i can regain chi quickly if I need to. (Although it's typically not an issue if I remember to spam Bestial Rage properly.) Then 5.0 APS was discovered, FCC was changed to allow people to level faster, as if multiple dailies and new quest chains weren't enough. (I went from 75 to 77 just doing the Goshinki chain). Now we had a lot of high levels, that didn't really know how to play as a team.

APS began to take over. I'd be going along tanking Pole just fine, when 20% into the boss a fresh BM or Sin would take aggro, squad wipe ensues because the new clerics could barely deal with healing me, much less healing multiple people taking aggro. Veno's didn't know how to use Amp or Lending hands, and when everyone died, the tank got the blame because he was supposed to hold aggo. Never you mind that the whole reason for the squad wipe was because of the BM/Sin not watching their damage and the clerics inability to deal with change.

It was this, and the sheer expense of my growing skills that eventually caused me to quit playing. Gamma squads failed all the time, other barbs weren't doing anything without asking for money, and I was still the nice and helpful one. Being nice doesn't pay the bills. I grew tired of the constant hassle that it became to play.

Recently I decided to give the game a shot again. There's a couple new classes out, new things to try, and so on. I came to a game that has changed considerably, and also has adjusted quite a bit from what it was. When I tank Pole, it's a little easier, and people know a little more about what they are doing. (although I think the latter is more because they are all lower level alts for higher level players and are more familiar with the game mechanics. I've even done a few runs in there where I wasn't the tank. Had a 89 Seeker tanking once, and he told me to just DD, so I happily did. Nice repair bill that run, a mere 3k compared to the usual 12-15k.

Anyway, a friend introduced me to Delta. I remember the early Gamma days and I had a lot of fun there, so I figured, why not? The BM and Archer were a little worried about me tanking. I'm not certain if it was because of my HP, or more because of my level. In any case, the run went well until the third stage. The Seeker in the squad tells us that he's got to leave. >.< Thankfully we had this awesome 101 Wizard in the group and she had no issue doing DB. I managed to hold aggro strong enough that when going to grab the next wave, I often still had some of the previous wave following me.b:chuckle I just dropped an apoc and kept on running it. We ended up finishing, although we did get another BM to help out in the final stage.

This revitalized my desire to play again greatly. This is the style of play I enjoy. I'm a pure VIT build, and I plan to stay that way. I don't do a lot of DD'ing because I don't need to. I just need to hold aggro on massive groups of mobs while other people DD and blow them away. I'll make up what DD power I need through choosing the best axe I can carry and by sharding/refining it as high as I can. (Also note, I don't drop a lot of cash into the game, I typically farm what I need. (That has it's costs as well).)

I had always intended to go Sage when I played a while back. I started this thread to ask if that was still a good choice because I plan on leveling quickly and reaching a point soon where I need to decide. It looks like it is because it fits my style.


In resoponse to jeigo, I swap out between the O'Malleys and the Jones, depending on what I'm doing. Questing gets Jones, Delta and FCC gets O'Malleys. b:victory

Also, I don't have that +crit arrow anymore, haven't for a long time. I've got a L2 bow and about 5000 arrows for harpies and heads in FCC.

P.S. I use the colors because a wall-of-text is just hard to read. It makes it more interesting and breaks it up a little.

IBaMBii - Heavens Tear

Starsteel - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I dont understand why you are talking **** about vit barbs, I **** you in the mouth every time in PVP! Pure vit FTW? I can kill sins in 2-3 hits and tank the damage without a worry.... I can spark and do more damage within the 15 seconds more than a claw barb to... To the OP rock on buddy rock on! Fuzzy will be proud!

Honestly, the only time I've seen you **** me PvP is when its 6 enrage (full r9 OP sht) versus a few of us.. recall west and in silver pool. So yeah, I've seen your gear and compared to mine you should be able to beat me. But I would love to see you prove it in a 1v1. b:dirty

Tiageos - Sanctuary

oh, almost forgot these...

Conalll - Archosaur wrote: »

Advice for the path ahead? First off, lose the the accuracy shards. I'm serious. I'm an ax barb, I have the same rings you do. At the moment, I actually have a little less dex. I hit more than enough to tank and/or DD, so those sockets are better used to increase your damage. Damage matters in aggro.
...

Yes, I know the Misty's are outdated. Back then it was considered to be the best choice. I haven't gotten into looking for the new rings yet, need to make some money selling all these TT Mats first. Are there any in particular you would recommend?

Also, thank you for the weapon advice. I don't know how long I 'll be in the 90's which is why I made that particular choice. After that, I'm very open to suggestions.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

... Got something more hiding behind that level 62 avatar or do you want to tell me some more about barbs at endgame?
...

This statement confused me a bit. I don't know more about barbs endgame. Beyond my Mountcrasher set, I'm not even sure what my nest set or armor will be. I am shooting for R8 because I think it will be cheaper/easier to achieve than TT99 gold, and it has slightly better stats.

Ask me how to play a caster and I'm all there. I've been playing bards, monks, and wizards in MMO's and RPG's for a long time. Here I tried starting a wizard on Lost City, got to level 30, died repeatedly at Archosaur gated and gave it up. Tried a Bm and got bored out of my mind by level 15. I tried a cleric, a Veno, and then settled on barb. Then later I switched to Sanctuary. This is now my home.

BloodTyrant - Raging Tide

OK, i was vit barb in the past and im gonna help a bit >.>

http://pwcalc.com/710fa576b6cbe5bf
for 9x this is the best opition for you, if you aiming for r8 don't need gx axes at 90, go with panguGA, the cape is a bit hard to get, but with 15k hp+ u can do trophy mode eden, 9x mag ornaments for mag def and good adds for barbs

http://pwcalc.com/b39babe8e3a97268
10x opition for tank barb, 280 base so u can use r8 weap, 50 dex base(with gears u reach 60 which is a good amount of dex) rest vit.
refines +5 minimum pls! shards immaculate or higher.
if u can afford, try to get warsoul helmet, lunar rings, maybe cube neck and warsong belt magic def (but they are expensive)
when u reach 100, have at least these 5 buffs, sage beast king insp. , Titans, axe/hammer, true form, shapeshift and sunder sage is nice too.

cya b:bye

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Tiageos - Sanctuary wrote: »

ok, so maybe my first post was a bit strong about not converting to claws and losing access to my skills...

Don't worry Tiageos, that post wasn't directed at you. It was the level 62 barb posting telling some of the better 100+ barbs out there about how a barb should be played at 100+.

So if all you plan to do is Delta, Vit barb is the way to go. It does concern me that there were mobs still alive when you went for your next pull since that means your DD wasn't great, but low dd is better than dead dd.

I'd still recommend demon for most things. The damage difference human to tiger form really only is about 12% (demon titans is worse than sage titans, but demon poison fang is better) but the skill options hold aggro better. Sage ream holds onto chi better, but demon ream is more spammable for better aggro. Sage sunder gives hp, demon Sunder gives instant hp (kind of a drawback sometimes, instead of heal over time) but demon Sunder hits like a beast and can be combo'd with other skills. Sage beastial rage lasts longer but most mobs die before its over and demon Beastial Rage gives you more chi in that short time period. Sage Devour may give you chi 1/4 of the time but you have to spam it twice as often, Demon Devour you need to use half as often so you can spam FR more. Sage PA is awesome if tanking in human form. Sage BKI is good for buffing alts or people leaving your squad, Demon BKI is useful as a chi barb. Sage Titans gives 10% more base weapon attack all the time, Demon Titans can give a higher dps increase 1 minute at a time by giving the 5% crit bonus. Sage Arma is safer, Demon arma is stronger (personally, I consider demon safer if everything around me dies). Sage Beastial Onslaught is kind of a joke, Demon BO is pure sex but more of a pvp move, although its nice to have a 35% crit increase with one of your only ranged skills.

I get that the game has changed alot. The average gear is better now, midgame and endgame. This means the tanks are tankier and the DDs are DDier. In my experience that means the tanks no longer need as much vitality statted because they have the gear to cover them. DDs have better weapons and gear too, and now don't mind tanking as much which is good because its easier to pull aggro now. A team player barb now is one that asks "who is tanking" and then assists a DD if they want to. Your example of the BM pulling aggro was a good one, since maybe if he had the cleric heal stack instead of you there wouldn't have been a wipe.

Anyway, Barbs have enough hp and defense now to be perfectly fine in pve without a single vit point added as long as they cover it with gear. Vitality has become optional and more of a buffer. I'd say 16k endgame is more than a barb needs to do anything pve and that can be achieved with 3 vitality and mediocre refines. Beyond that is all cushion and comfort level, which is nice for a cleric not to worry about having to heal a barb so much.

I'd say the biggest worry for a cleric is not normally the barbs hp but can they hold aggro. That's why I went with a str/dex build on my barb till 99. I kept my gear up so I wasn't short on hp but I also backed it up with damage. Seemed the best way to tank, and I think it was. Auto attacking with axes I stole aggro from some vit barbs spamming ream/devour.



And please, don't always blame the DD. My Bm wasn't highly refined in his 80's but killing pole I would unequip my wrists to lower my aps, and unequip my blessing. Sometimes I'd still steal aggro from barbs so I'd unequip my fists, too. I'd still steal aggro with no weapon, no blessing, no wristguards. Now I was in a bad situation because half my gear is unequipped and I'm tanking.

Another example is my sin doing his fb at level 60. I did the normal shout for high levels and got a 100 sage vit barb to "tank". I had -int wristguards and a jones blessing, but the barb had 40 levels on me and Pan Gu's Giant Axe +7 or something. I had level 56 daggers +3 and only a double spark and he couldn't keep aggro off me so I tanked my own fb at level 60. It was easier than damage modifying just to have the cleric heal me.

Those are example of fail barbs and why I don't consider high hp what makes a tank. Personally, holding aggro and staying alive are my only requirements for a tank.

Fresh_Corpse - Sanctuary

Demon culti for pvp, pve, mass pvp, and looking sexy
Sage culti for pulling catas and being a pretty girl

Even as an int barb stated correctly you'll still be sitting on a minimum 17k hp at 100+ with +5 refines and an intelegent build.

Jeigo - Dreamweaver

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Don't worry Tiageos, that post wasn't directed at you. It was the level 62 barb posting telling some of the better 100+ barbs out there about how a barb should be played at 100+.

You're trolling. I'd like you to point out where I told anyone how a barb should be played. Looking over my posts, I merely defended how the OP wants to play his barb. You're reading tone and arrogance that is simply not there. There's no need to take offense to a different opinion; just because I don't want to play a claw barb doesn't mean I think claw barbs are wrong.

XylolyX - Heavens Tear

I'm neither claw, nor aps (unless you count 1.05 as aps.)

I won't say I'm the ultimate tank, however I like to think I'm a pretty good one. The biggest thing to remember above lvl 90 is mdef, mdef, mdef and when in doubt...more mdef. The second thing to remember is that HP comes from refines. It's a waste to stat more vit after 100 and you have your "endgame" gear. Add str for better attack which can hold aggro a bit better.

As far as HP goes, I'm at about 24.5K. Mdef buffed is over 8K, and Pdef is over 20K. I'm not rank9, I have only a combo between r8 and TT99 gold. Cloudcharger cape sharded with sapphire gems. It's perfectly respectable to have this combo of armor and still be a damned good tank....as long as you know how to survive.

I don't care about claws or restatting, not my cup of tea and I'm fine with those who want to do it. I know it makes soloing TTs, FFs and just about anything possible, but this is an MMO, and I like being part of a team.

I will echo the thoughts of one of the posters...Sage Devour is probably the best squad aiding skill that a barb has. If you can continually spam devour, then any squad you are in will love you.

BloodTyrant - Raging Tide

dam.. u guys write too much b:shocked

Allisandre - Sanctuary

I find the conversation very interesting. It reminds me of the old HA veno build battles.