R9 veno is bad? o.O

They say that because Venomancers aren't as strong DDs as classes like Psychic or Assassins. But in the end it's all silly argument.

If it's your main and most loved character out of all, you'll want to invest into her the most and put most of your efforts on her. Whatever you get is for your own achievement and pleasure. Besides, it's not all about the attack. The defence and HP you get from the rank 9 is godly.

My point is, a lot a lot of Venomancers neglect their gear (especially if they acquire a Hercules and rely on it for everything) with the results of them having bad/mediocre gear and/or HP. People want Venomancers for debuffs...sure...but you can't debuff if you spent most of your time in squad dead. I've seen that a lot on Nirvana squads or BH100 when I do them with my Cleric. Venomancers are usually the first to die -.-

As far as PvP servers are concerned, I don't know much.

JanusZeal is just a troll, best ignored.

Foxchu - Archosaur wrote: »

they had a butt load of R9 archers... i was an easy 1-2 shot to them even when fully buffed and in fox form. i can't purge if i can't get to the target and i can't get to the targets if archers shooting my *** b:surrender will R9 make a difference... i think so... more HP and def will make it harder for me to be taken down and the weapon lets me deal the damage needed...

There isn't really much you can do against r9 archers. They kinda just faceroll the keyboard and tab target everyone not r9 in range for 10k damage with normal crits (Not sure on your p def, I was taking 10k from crits and like 4-5k normals; I have around 4.2k phys defense unbuffed). 3 or more is enough to keep a faction of r8 players down without everyone grouping up on them.

And ijs, R9 venos can be rly rly scary. A r9+12 veno in my faction regularly wipes OT and SP. She has 12k hp, not sure on her defenses.

Nine_Lives - Raging Tide wrote: »

But the weapon itself...maybe you can search for a more stable damage dealing weap in nirvy. My fellow R9 veno fac mate uses a 2nd cast nirv glaive with + 7 refines and he did not look back ever since on his rank 9 pataka (BTW he's HA/AA) b:chuckle

The weapon is sexy lol. High spike = high damage. Even better on crits. Though that could just be the archer in me, the +30 attack levels is also quite nice.

I once saw in Hidden Orchid a lvl 102 veno with Full R9 +10, full JOsD, +10 event ornaments get 2shot by a R9 archer with the same refines/sharding. N that's when I decided that R9 veno is so crappy it's not worth getting it unless it's your one and only main and the only class you enjoy. Veno's role is to debuff and try to survive as best as possible, but there's only so much you can do to survive against other R9's.

To me, R9 on a veno has never been worth it. I'm actually farming R9 for another class that I enjoy and that R9 actually makes a difference on. R8 on veno for lyfe (or maybe even recast if that's ever implemented) ^^

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Being purged by an R9 veno hurts a lot more than being purged by an R8 veno. Also the flesh ream from R9 nixes hurt a lot especially if its refined to +12.

I love u

tfi3f wrote: »

The thing venos forget about r8/r9 pataka is that +12 R9 pataka with pure mag AA veno build has magic attack capped at around 14K-19K range. A wiz +19 r9 pure mag AA has

What?

tfi3f wrote: »

I know you're not at all one to talk stupidness, so I either misinterpreted you, you were joking, or you simply weren't aware:

Purge doesn't deal damage...purge from a TT99 wep veno is the same as purge from a +12 r9 veno, and nix can't be refined; that's just been a floating suggestion that venos have proposed to the GMs to ask the devs to implement. As with all useful changes it's been ignored.

I'm surprised nobody else corrected that, but then sarcasm doesn't carry well in text so I could be completely missing a joke.

Actually u did miss the joke b:chuckle

tfi3f wrote: »

@Crescendia: Yes, I was also there the night when ECUADAN was repeatedly 1-2 shotted by BanZzoKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK. Veno just can't win with OP gear alone. I don't really remember whether or not she is full JoSD, but if she is, that's just even more despairing for the veno case. Veno has no self buffs, and 0 practical control skills.

I was actually refering to PisceusFox the Blackfox leader and Jekel from Catalyst xD

But thanks for giving me another example. Makes it more reassuring that i shouldn't waste R9 on a veno lol

Azura - Lost City wrote: »

The people who say venos sucks is because they only like heavy dd classes. Venos are a support class..

All classes are support classes and they all have debuffs. Venomancer is described as a solo class; not a support class.

Those rare times i actually agree with Tweakz's posts. (though i dont believe all classes are DDs , barbs imo arent , anyway) People underestimating Venos so much such as tfi3f seriously dont know what they can actually do with their venos. b:bye

EDIT: This post is very long, and is a response to thumbs. It is meant for thumbs to read, so if you are not thumbs, you can skip it. If you're not thumbs therefore, I really don't want to see you quoting me and saying "TL;DR".

thumbs wrote: »

Same max range, what's your point?

Same max range, but not the same average output. Not a DD.

Veno doesn't need all the pdef of other classes allowing them to focus more on DD, and veno gets more dmg boost from eruption than other caster classes.

When you triple spark, and begin DDing, most of the 15 seconds is going to be spent reapplying debuffs in PvE instances if you're with a squad. During the time you spent triple sparking and pretending to be a DD, you should have been doing the following:

Demon ironwood -> fox form -> amp -> fox myriad -> human form -> human myriad -> demon ironwood -> get 2-3 skills here to build chi before those are off cooldown. If you pretend to be a DD, you compromise your usefulness as what you really are: a support class.

All classes are DD classes.

Veno, cleric, barb: these are not DDs, but support classes.

Veno needs less def than any other class.

My post was mainly talking about PvP and not PvE, so that's a pretty incorrect thing to say in response given the general direction I was moving in. Veno needs more def than other classes in PvP in fact, given that they have no practical self buffs that increase defense.

BS

Given that I was talking about nuking as in, dealing damage in PvP, nope, it's not BS. Rank 9 veno will get badly owned almost any other class in rank 9 if it wastes time trying to DD the other person to death. Your aim should be to get break and kill asap. Not to pretend you can kill and endgame BM (15K+ HP), barb (25K+HP), sin (12K+ HP), archer (14K+ HP), psy (12K+ HP), wiz (12K+ HP), etc in any 1v1 situation.

Ganks are another matter. Also, people confuse TW with PKing. Although as a veno in TW you're still not supposed to be DDing anyway, until all the support has been killed and the barb is left alone in lane with your squad; then you assist with DDing to kill the barb after you have properly fulfilled your support role of purging and amping, and possibly breaking.

.. and you are not as smart as you think you are.

Not a valid argument \o/

Wiz needs far more def than a veno for PvE, Veno gets more dmg boost from eruption than wiz, veno can cast 2 spells that deal more dmg than a wiz can in the same amount of time. I play a wiz and veno, both 100+; for most occasions my veno is a better DD.

Dunno why you keep bringing up PvE in response to my basically PvP oriented post, in heavily PvP themed thread which is for discussing rank 9. By the time you have rank 9, you aren't going to be questing, and nobody takes veno for Nirv because you have r9 pataka. If you go into nirv with r9 pataka and you pretend to be DD and don't play support you're not going to be taken again by that squad leader.

I also have a wiz (surprise), but he is not lvl100, he's lvl86. But I have a good idea of what wiz PvE is about. Wiz is not supposed to use Spark Eruption except in special corner cases. I recommend you read the Wizard forums, cos it's strange to see someone who normally talks a lot of sense even bothering to mention 3 spark for a wiz and using wiz 3 spark as a contrast for veno 3 spark.

Back to PvP, veno is again not a DD. If you ever 3 spark in PvP as a veno you're not doing it right. You should save that chi for Bramble Hood. 3 spark on a veno is not good use of chi against an endgame opponent regardless of how hard you hit them because the majority of your hits while 3 sparked will be mitigated against an endgame player, and the rest that actually hit will be tanked with ease. Remember, ironguard and AD are the new big thing for PvP. Although I wouldn't be surprised if when you 3 spark in PvP another rank 9 will just laugh and then stun you and kill you within 4-6 seconds. Veno should not be sparking in PvP...your point was pretty irrelevant.

To not acknowledge all classes as DD is to fail.

Nope, there are classes which should not be called DDs at endgame. For example, in PvE, and APS Sin/BM is a good DD. In TW, BM role is to Cloud sprint -> Roar of the Pride -> (possibly DG) -> Leap Back, then seek out targets who have overextended themselves (that is, they have come behind your friendly lines) while they wait for the ranged DDs to take out the more dangerous DDs on the enemy line. BM who for example runs out and tries to play PK-style in TW and say, targets a cleric before he fulfills his role will get targeted by the next 2-3 enemies who press <tab> and will get owned before he does anything useful.

In every situation every class has a specific role and that role may be highly variant...or it may be highly fixed.

Bramble Hood, Bramble Guard, Summer Sprint, Fox Form, and Feral Concentration aren't self buffs? Parasitic Nova, Lucky Scarab, and multiple pet skills aren't control skills?

I'm actually going to take the time to break this down -_-

Multiple pet skills don't count in PvP since you will be using a sawfly or nix, and there are no freeze skills for pets, and pounce...I think you understand the situation with obtaining pounce. So you either have a nix with pounce, or you do without it mostly. And even if you consider PvE, do you know some control skills for pets that I wasn't aware of apart from Slow which would be a waste of space on a Nix? I'm sure you already know this was a highly impractical argument.

Self buffs: Veno self buffs for PK are completely impractical and badly designed: that cannot be refuted.

Bramble Hood: requires 2 sparks. Leaves you open every for 15 seconds, and basically if you want to use it, you have to find 2 sparks every 30 seconds. Impractical.

Bramble guard: only works in Duels and TW, and nobody in this rank 9 thread was discussing PvE, so PvE is completely out of the question. TW is a valid arena, but honestly the fact that Bramble hood works in TW is not in any way a reason go put rank 9 on a veno...which is what this thread is discussing.

Summer Sprint: I won't bother to say what's wrong with you mentioning this...I'm sure you also know you only mentioned this one to opportunistically increase the length of your list.

Fox form: Acknowledged as a valid point.
Feral Concentration: Acknowledged as a semi-valid point. Being able to use a skill every 5 minutes does not make it a reliable or practical self buff.

I already stated why Lucky Scarab is an impractical skill for endgame PvP in my first post.

Parasitic Nova: this is highly situational, and most of the time you will be saving your sparks for Bramble hood. Again, 2 sparks for an 66% chance to seal+immobilize does not count as a practical control skill. I could have avoided typing all of this out if you had properly read my post: I very strongly emphasized practicality when I was talking about control skills and self buffs. If you however use sparks on Parasitic Nova in PvP then I guess more power to you.

Stunning Blow, Lucky Scarab, Pounce, Frighten, Nova, etc.

My response is getting pretty long now, so I'll just say: go and do this on a rank9 archer.

Most of those skills do no dmg, while venos have control skills that apply decent dmg and debuffs.

Your damage on any endgame opponent is not going to be a factor. Have you REALLY forgotten that your opponents will be charmed? REALLY? Do I have to mention their charms? The thread is about rank 9 being considered for a veno. Your priority for getting rank 9 is to either (1) faceroll more efficiently or (2) Survive more efficiently or (3) both. You cannot faceroll a charmed endgame opponent as a veno. Rank 9 will not make you any harder to kill for any endgame opponent as a veno. You see two people stating clearly that they have seen that is not useful. Desiree, and highly adept veno on Harshlands also clearly states that rank 9 on a veno is highly impractical, and if he passes in here and decides to comment, he'll say it yet again. Whether or not he will do so for the same reasons that I have said it is irrelevant.

Yet you still argue.

Not much with you behind it.

I won't respond to that line. Please read my posts before you reply...most of your retorts were completely off tune with what I said, or were a result of very subtle skewing of the meaning of my post. The thread is about rank 9...how does PvE come in at all? Apart from BH and TT and nirvana, what PvE are you going to do on a veno at endgame? Do you need rank 9 to tank TT? Do you need rank 9 to do BH? Do you need rank 9 to run nirv? Does anybody even ask venos to link their wep for nirv squads? Talk sense man.

Read all this, but won't bother quoting anything - just some thoughts.

On the original thread question - R9 veno is bad?

If your goal is to pwn in pvp or pve, and you have your choice of alts to rank 9 from any class, and you choose veno, then I guess that was a bad choice.

If a veno is your main and will always be your main and you have the choice between rank 9 and nirvana (and cost is not a factor), then I think r9 would be a good choice there. Better set bonuses, resulting in higher damage and more survivability.

I was in the latter boat, I started on DW with this veno and it will be my main until I quit. I just enjoy playing it. I also have an endgame psy. If I wanted to get the most bang out of r9 then of course I would have done it with the psy. But I play the veno the vast majority of the time so I'm going r9 on it. And if I had to pay cash - then I would be going r9 on neither lol, but I've done well enough at merchanting that I'm halfway to full set now.

I think the people who see a r9 veno and call it a 'bad choice' or a 'waste' are presuming that all players level multiple classes to 101 and are trying to maximize their output in either PVE or PVP (or both) as a player. In this case, where each class is a tool for that player, choosing to r9 the veno tool instead of the others does not make sense. Especially considering the cost for r9 - in either cash or time. It really depends on how the player approaches choosing their class, and on how they approach the game.

On not getting the r9 weapon: someone had mentioned getting the full r9 except weapon. Again if cost is not an issue not sure why you would neglect the weapon. If you go nirvana instead then you are giving up 50 attack levels (30 from wep, and 20 from last r9 piece in set - even if you get +20 atk levels on nirvana wep, still giving up 30).

tfi3f wrote: »

... stuff ...

I must say, learn to play a venomancer. Your sheer inability to understand, let alone accept, what a veno can or ought to do in given situations, screams loudly of ineptitude, not wisdom.

Intimidator - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I must say, learn to play a venomancer. Your sheer inability to understand, let alone accept, what a veno can or ought to do in given situations, screams loudly of ineptitude, not wisdom.

If I had to guess whose alt you are, I'd say Pheonix_Eye \o/

tfi3f wrote: »

If I had to guess whose alt you are, I'd say Pheonix_Eye \o/

If i had to guess ur IQ , it would be as low as the temperature in the south pole

VoItaire - Harshlands wrote: »

From what I've seen r9 doesn't appear very awesome for venos. Like Aster said, it's much more offense oriented than defense. And I survived r9 +11 nova from two different venos in just my TT90 green +3. :b But who knows maybe r9 will be more worth it when recast arrives.

+ 1

Chalk that pathetic nova performance from that embarassment of a weapon called the R9 pataka

You're a myst, and obviously you have healing skills but still if you can survive one of the veno's most powerful attacks from the supposedly most powerful type of veno, something's horribly wrong with the weapon

My fac mate is an R9 HA/AA veno, he ditched the R9 pataka as soon as he got his TT99 glaive into 2nd cast in nirvy. Though he says the pataka is still more powerful of the two, the damage dealing the R9 wep is giving is so unreliable he gave up refining it and stowed it in his bank for good. He chose consistency over spike damage over this. And he can't be happier with the results.

He also told me he will phase out some of the armor except the parts with the channeling and replace it with nirv 2nd cast AA for his full AA set to be used in caster nirv.

I dunno what exactly is the full benefit for a pure mag veno/ vit-mag veno with R9, maybe it's better. But judging from the actions of my friend, it does not exactly fit well into the HA/AA veno