Sage vs Demon

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  • Okeano - Harshlands
    Okeano - Harshlands Posts: 4,943 Arc User
    edited October 2010
    Getting top 3 to 5 in tiger event with my TT80 +4 daggers for 50 to 100 event gold each week, aka endless free charms, makes up for all the survivability in the world b:pleased.
  • AltairII - Sanctuary
    AltairII - Sanctuary Posts: 61 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Sage all the way and I'm not there yet lol
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Typhyse - Sanctuary
    Typhyse - Sanctuary Posts: 3,469 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Sage all the way and I'm not there yet lol

    You'll change your mind at the last minute...I did...
    Demon_Troll: "takes on the appearance of an innocent archer but turns into a mindless idiot once you hear him speak"
    ~Spazz~
  • tarrbaby73
    tarrbaby73 Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    i spent several levels deciding on whether to go Sage or Demon. i came to pretty much much one conclusion, it does depend on your play style. no matter how you slice it, how you play affects the "skills" you want. i see far more benefits for "demon" in the lone/aggressive/pvp sin. however, playing on a pve server as i do and trying to maintain a "team" mindset when it comes to instances and such, i find that "sage" produces a more efficient and effective way to go. my reasons are as follows: 1, bp of course in a squad setting.2, sparking for heal does allieviate some of the stress off of the cleric who does have to try and keep everyone alive. 3, albeit sad to say,having a slight reduction in damage can be a good thing, squadwise. the cleric can focus on the tank, as well s purifies,etc. and the tank doesn't have to focus on keeping aggro and risk running low on manna at a crucial point. 3, i really find that Throatcut can be a squad saver at times. especially when at Sge lvl it is 100% guaranteed to interupt enemy channeling, followed by knife throw with a 70% chance. this can save many party wipes at a crucial point in battle. anyways, everyone has they're playstyle and preferences. i just wanted to share my particular reasons for going sage over the much "cooler", even in my eyes "demon".
  • _Spot_ - Lost City
    _Spot_ - Lost City Posts: 318 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    After reading this i havent decided yet....


    Heres my though and i ask your opinion on this..

    Go demon get gold TT90 wrists and rank chest...(a bit of int)

    Go Sage get full TT90 green(i already have it(shard 5 atck lvls on it plus hp)


    On my banker i alreay have a +4 FC daggers sharded with atck lvl+1(bought it that way)

    Sky demons pearl,demon slaughter belt, warsoul helmet, event cape++5(all stats +7 1 critical)

    So pls tell me what path i should chosse.. im confused lol

    Btw i think i will not have much money to get the skill books maybe one or two i dont know


    Thanks for the replysb:kiss

    PS: i love PVP
  • Typhyse - Sanctuary
    Typhyse - Sanctuary Posts: 3,469 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    JFYI, I have beaten a Sage sin with almost that very gear several times, and she's 91 or 92 (thought at this stage in the game, a few levels does not make that much of a difference in PvP). However, she's a vit build and not much of a dueler.

    I'm not trying to deter you from that culti/gearing, I'm just letting you know what I've observed.
    But then again, any build can suck if in the wrong hands: Demon/DPS as well as Sage/DPH.
    Demon_Troll: "takes on the appearance of an innocent archer but turns into a mindless idiot once you hear him speak"
    ~Spazz~
  • JebakLesny - Dreamweaver
    JebakLesny - Dreamweaver Posts: 99 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    soon im gonan be ... still idk. Sage or demon
    I have time :)
    Firts i wanna go sage then at AH saw skill books. Most or all skills i wannna get start at lv 99. At lv 89 i can lern skils that i dont use none. They r at lv 1 soo what bother. Wait till lv 99 to get what i want hmmm. thta sux big time.
    Soo maybe demon spark b:dirty every1 of my fr got it n they r happy.
    Ther is any sage sin at my server?
  • JebakLesny - Dreamweaver
    JebakLesny - Dreamweaver Posts: 99 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    today i'll hit 89 lv b:victory n i'll go demon, another demon sin in DW but i wonder if tank gonna be able to keep aggro at bh69 after 3rd sparkb:laugh
  • Typhyse - Sanctuary
    Typhyse - Sanctuary Posts: 3,469 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    He won't. I could steal pre-demon w/o sparking at all.
    Demon_Troll: "takes on the appearance of an innocent archer but turns into a mindless idiot once you hear him speak"
    ~Spazz~
  • NSAT - Lost City
    NSAT - Lost City Posts: 68 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    honestly imo, sage is pretty useless unless ur loaded. and by loaded, i mean u can afford love up and down from lv1. skills, whether or not ur sage or demon are usually 5m+ each just for the book because theres no skills in fb89 for tideborn. so for the average player, u prob wont ever get the skills that make sage sins better than demon. so u might as well do what ur meant to do: dd. and demon = better dd.

    plus, in pvp u never triple spark unless ur against HA. and if ur fighting HA, the only reason to spark is to dps like crazy past the charm. sage spark again, doesnt help.

    basically, only reason to go sage is if u can afford 3.33/4 aps as a sage sin
  • Malekith - Harshlands
    Malekith - Harshlands Posts: 39 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    thanks for the interesting discussion, i look forward to going demon b:victory
    "We play games, then argue about them. That's stupid.

    "This world is full of stupid people who don't realize they're stupid or won't admit to being stupid."

    "Many things can distract stupid people."
  • Red_blaze - Lost City
    Red_blaze - Lost City Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    i c all of your points but when it comes down to it weather to go sage or demon it all depends on you play style my char is not high enough to go ether one yet. but it will be in time
  • HeIIz - Lost City
    HeIIz - Lost City Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I like how everyone is bashing on sage sin, they obviously haven't met a good one because everyone hyper or oracles their *** to 100 and all they know how to do these days are spark, kill 1 person, stealth and repeat. Demon sins on my server have no clue how to play their sin right because they just spark all the time. I do admit there are good ones ( cheze from Ess is one hard ***** to kill and actually knows how to play his sin ) but everyone else I run into has some pretty OP gears but can die to like 2-3 shots from a r8 EA or Mage with a charm.

    I have had the time to even look at the difference between bloodpaints on my 100 BM. I went into an HH run with sage bloodpaint at first, and mind you I am 4.0 APS, and rolled through the bosses without having to have a **** ton of heals, maybe a few here and therel. I went through another time with demon bloodpaint and had to actually have BB up so my charm would not tick.

    I am not trying to bash on demon sins, but everyone needs to take in account the fact that sage sins are good too. Yes, they do cost more to get the good skills and everything, but I'm pretty much already done farming my sins (which is sage) gear and he will be a base of 4.0. Tbh not everyone on my server is 5.0 sin anyways, you get to 4.0 and you are happy. I've also taken my sage sin through frost and have been asked to go again because I actually rib strike and subsea on the bosses.
  • Typhyse - Sanctuary
    Typhyse - Sanctuary Posts: 3,469 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I've also taken my sage sin through frost and have been asked to go again because I actually rib strike and subsea on the bosses.
    I hate sins who don't do this -.- I violate my MP using just those two skills >>
    Demon_Troll: "takes on the appearance of an innocent archer but turns into a mindless idiot once you hear him speak"
    ~Spazz~
  • Aldryami - Sanctuary
    Aldryami - Sanctuary Posts: 322 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I'm not sure what to choose yet. Possibly demon. A lot of the comparisons are made assuming that demons will be sparked. I have some questions:

    Demons: how often do you really manage to fire off a triple spark during PvP? If its not often useful then we have to recalculate and assume the demon is not sparked.

    Demons: how often do you manage to fire off your wolf emblem in the middle of pvp?

    My experience on archer is that triple spark is rarely helpful and demon blazing arrow is inferior to the sage perma-buff due to not being usable mid-pvp.

    Sages: have any of you worked out what that 15% extra damage every attack means in terms of real numbers? any quotes?
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I hate sins who don't do this -.- I violate my MP using just those two skills >>

    Personally, my usage of Subsea depends totally on the situation. Often, I'm the highest DD in squad and pushing myself through another cycle of triple sparking would require usage of Inner Harmony or Rising Dragon Strike, which means I cannot necessarily fire off Triple Spark -> Subsea. Or then the other DDs are obviously much weaker than me, such as a Wizard, or an Axe BM or an Archer using TT80, in which case me triple sparking over using Subsea would benefit the squad more.

    Also, some people like to use Extreme Poison, which pretty much makes Subsea a waste of two good sparks on anything but grouped-up mobs, since EP is cheaper, faster, spammable and has a longer duration. And they cancel each other.

    Rib Strike I try to keep up, but I will not sacrifice time on my spark to Rib Strike, simply because that's often not best for the DPS.
    Demons: how often do you manage to fire off your wolf emblem in the middle of pvp?

    I'd imagine a lot of people get permastealth and buff with Wolf Emblem before engaging in combat. In-combat, Wolf Emblem is a bit of a bad choice since, at least on my sin, it interrupts auto-attacking.
    My experience on archer is that triple spark is rarely helpful and demon blazing arrow is inferior to the sage perma-buff due to not being usable mid-pvp.

    Archers also get a lot less chi gain than Sins. And btw, Demon Blazing Arrow is permanent at 50% regular, 120% for the duration. And that means it averages 53%, IIRC. Which means the Sage version isn't that much better.
    Sages: have any of you worked out what that 15% extra damage every attack means in terms of real numbers? any quotes?

    Well, most people have concluded that it comes to a pretty small amount of damage due to the crit bonus that demons get, counting from an assumed 400 dex. Like below:

    Damage for Dagger: (1+Dex/150+mastery)

    Demons get (1+400/150+0.75) = 4.4166
    Sages get (1+400/150 + 0.9) = 4.5666

    Now Sage/Demon gives you 4.566/4.4166 = 1.034

    Now, compare the crits:
    400 dex = 20% crit
    Rings = 2x3% crit = 6% crit
    Total: 26% Base Crit

    Demons Get: 26+2% = 28%
    Sages Get: 26+0% = 26%

    Now Sage/Demon gives you 26/28 = 0.92857143

    Now Sage/Demon ends up as: 1.034*0.92857143 = 0.96010781

    So in effect, Sages would be looking at ~4% less DPH. However, this value is extremely inaccurate. For example, I can bet that any actual level 100 Assassin has more than 400 dex and more than 26% crit. Also, if you included Wolf Emblem in the Sage crit multiplier, which you should as it's a permanent buff for them, you'd see that Sage actually gets more damage increase from their crits than Demon on average. The same is obviously true in practice, even if you used Demon Wolf Emblem as it's bound to run out on you and then your true time spent on Demon Wolf Emblem is actually less than 50% of the time.

    However:
    Since you can assume that every sin at level 100 has at least 400 dex, the most Sages get from their mastery is that 3%
    Since you can assume that every sin at level 100 has at least 26% crit, the most Demons get from their mastery is that ~7.7%
    So in terms of DPH, the two classes are actually so close to each other than comparing DPH is pretty much pointless
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  • Aldryami - Sanctuary
    Aldryami - Sanctuary Posts: 322 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    TY olbaze :)
  • Lilfists - Sanctuary
    Lilfists - Sanctuary Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    ot depends on what you want to do if your just going to go solo fb and PvE all day vana fcc ex you want demon but if you want to PvP sage is the way to go is u put sage sin skills side by side to demon sage has the better effects i myself am a demon sin and my sage friend kicks my *** in pvp all day
  • Azzazin - Dreamweaver
    Azzazin - Dreamweaver Posts: 502 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Both sage sins & demon sins can do well in pvp; to do massive dmg in pve, obviously demon is preferred. Ideally, level another alt sin, make sage, get sage bloodpaint, and then buff your demon sin with sage bloodpaint. No joke, I know some people have done this.

    There is one sin our DW who can one shot over 90% of the server. Basically, everbody except the really badass high hp bms and barbs. Takes a couple more hits for that. Why? R9, 180 or something attack levels. With sage skills you can undeniably hit harder.

    Demon is definitely a cheaper way to do enough dps to kill the heavy armors. And you know, you don't need to spark to do dmg if you are demon, because you'll have a higher aps unsparked. To kill a heavy, a sage who ain't r9 will probably have to spark for sure (talkin about the really good heavy armor ppl, now).

    That being said, a demon assassin with r9 daggers has the highest dps of any class and any wep, and you can still output nasty dph. Who really cares if you can't one hit somebody; all you really need to do is bypass the charm. With a bit of cleverness that isn't that hard.

    So? Go demon for lotsa dmg pve, and then go make a sage sin too. Have yur cake and eat it too, ovay!

    Azzazin
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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  • Wunderkind - Dreamweaver
    Wunderkind - Dreamweaver Posts: 315 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Both sage sins & demon sins can do well in pvp; to do massive dmg in pve, obviously demon is preferred. Ideally, level another alt sin, make sage, get sage bloodpaint, and then buff your demon sin with sage bloodpaint. No joke, I know some people have done this.

    There is one sin our DW who can one shot over 90% of the server. Basically, everbody except the really badass high hp bms and barbs. Takes a couple more hits for that. Why? R9, 180 or something attack levels. With sage skills you can undeniably hit harder.

    Demon is definitely a cheaper way to do enough dps to kill the heavy armors. And you know, you don't need to spark to do dmg if you are demon, because you'll have a higher aps unsparked. To kill a heavy, a sage who ain't r9 will probably have to spark for sure (talkin about the really good heavy armor ppl, now).

    That being said, a demon assassin with r9 daggers has the highest dps of any class and any wep, and you can still output nasty dph. Who really cares if you can't one hit somebody; all you really need to do is bypass the charm. With a bit of cleverness that isn't that hard.

    So? Go demon for lotsa dmg pve, and then go make a sage sin too. Have yur cake and eat it too, ovay!

    Azzazin

    Lolwat? Unsparked aps is unsparked aps; sage and demon can both acquire the same... so how is a demon having more then sage?
    Currently: pwcalc.com/b4c92dacf1da8c21
  • Empu - Sanctuary
    Empu - Sanctuary Posts: 1,154 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Both sage sins & demon sins can do well in pvp; to do massive dmg in pve, obviously demon is preferred. Ideally, level another alt sin, make sage, get sage bloodpaint, and then buff your demon sin with sage bloodpaint. No joke, I know some people have done this.

    There is one sin our DW who can one shot over 90% of the server. Basically, everbody except the really badass high hp bms and barbs. Takes a couple more hits for that. Why? R9, 180 or something attack levels. With sage skills you can undeniably hit harder.

    Demon is definitely a cheaper way to do enough dps to kill the heavy armors. And you know, you don't need to spark to do dmg if you are demon, because you'll have a higher aps unsparked. To kill a heavy, a sage who ain't r9 will probably have to spark for sure (talkin about the really good heavy armor ppl, now).

    That being said, a demon assassin with r9 daggers has the highest dps of any class and any wep, and you can still output nasty dph. Who really cares if you can't one hit somebody; all you really need to do is bypass the charm. With a bit of cleverness that isn't that hard.

    So? Go demon for lotsa dmg pve, and then go make a sage sin too. Have yur cake and eat it too, ovay!
    Azzazin

    In red : doesn't make sence at all. If demon doesn't need to spark, neither does sage lol. Damage isn't that much different, just +2% crit vs +15% weap damage, maybe depending on situation (if you just pop out of stealth) demon wolf emblem gives an adventage. This is if you kill on auto att ofc. On skills, demon has slightly better stuns, sage has slightly better dph. Saying sage sin must have r9 to be a DD is just too sad for any constructive comment.

    In blue : I didn't know you could buff your demon sin with tidal protection, focussed mind, chill and wolf emblem :O Well you probably try to say sage bp is the one and only reason to go sage ... Which is kinda narrow-minded. I'm a sage sin, and the skill I love most is actually...... sage spark. It's freaking awesome to have the survivability of a HA, still be one of the top DD's in game, and have the option to use windshield if you prefer a little more damage over survivability.
  • thehiddenplanet#7737
    thehiddenplanet#7737 Posts: 17 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Gaahhh still confused, well ive like 7 more levels to decide.
  • ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver
    ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver Posts: 458 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Super necro power up activate!!
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • IHateBRs - Harshlands
    IHateBRs - Harshlands Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    I'm going to be sage, it seems great one sage sin 4aps.
    My combo for bosses would be Rib Strike (bye 10% HPb:chuckle), Sage Spark>Inner Harmony>Power Dash>Extreme Poison>Tangling Mire.
    if it's one bad combo, I would love suggestions b:dirty
  • _Skai_ - Raging Tide
    _Skai_ - Raging Tide Posts: 3,407 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Even if it is a necro, at least the person who necro'd this thread actually searched for answers rather than making a new post about it.

    Hope it isn't locked for the sake of having sage/demon questions answered.
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  • Edo_Tensei - Heavens Tear
    Edo_Tensei - Heavens Tear Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    I've been reading these threads up and down. Trying to decide which path i'd like, and for most part it's difficult choice. What i am looking for is an actual comparison side by side... the differences between sage and demon sin.

    This would include skills as well as the aps and basic bonuses. If there's a thread i can visit i would like to be directed there. I've sorted through threads for an hour and i don't have so much time in the day to spend 2 hours rooting through to find what i'm looking for. So road map pl0x, or if there isn't a thread like what i want, to compare the 2 paths directly, then posting it here would be nice. Thank you :)

    the sin need speed so go DEMON
  • ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver
    ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver Posts: 458 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    the sin need speed so go DEMON

    Such a dumb post...
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Massad - Harshlands
    Massad - Harshlands Posts: 360 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    <=== Sage with vit build at lvl 90 I have over 5k hp unbuffed and I can tank most things that have squad wiped... well everyone

    Also have a genie that raises my att speed... Should look into it... The build I got for 101 is a lil crazy but still a work in progress... Need to change somethings around before I get there.b:pleased
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Other names include but not limited to LOKl_ _ClRCE_, _AnGeal_
  • goldslave123
    goldslave123 Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    there is 1 thing that makes me mad tbh.. :P sage sin can also have 4 aps base, or if u want better pvp 3.33 with 2cd recast nirvana. the sage can reach 5 aps without spark wich means u save 3 sparks. sage hit harder, just as fast.


    (AND FOR THE STUNS FROM DEMON)

    demon stuns give 1 second for headhunt wich makes it go from 5-6 seconds which is really not that much and shadow teli makes the stun from 3-5 seconds wich isnt that much either but might b helpful. SEARCH ECATOMB.NET, skills section will list what each skill does. it made me choose to go sage. and i dont regret it 1 bit, at 100 i will even be better then most sins at soloing fc. and i will hit harder and just as fast in pvp. I HOPE THIS HELPED.
  • chaoticshelly
    chaoticshelly Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Dun dun dun, and another one bites the dust.
This discussion has been closed.