Sage vs Demon

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Allilie - Sanctuary
Allilie - Sanctuary Posts: 22 Arc User
edited September 2011 in Assassin
I've been reading these threads up and down. Trying to decide which path i'd like, and for most part it's difficult choice. What i am looking for is an actual comparison side by side... the differences between sage and demon sin.

This would include skills as well as the aps and basic bonuses. If there's a thread i can visit i would like to be directed there. I've sorted through threads for an hour and i don't have so much time in the day to spend 2 hours rooting through to find what i'm looking for. So road map pl0x, or if there isn't a thread like what i want, to compare the 2 paths directly, then posting it here would be nice. Thank you :)
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Post edited by Allilie - Sanctuary on
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  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    90-99% of all sins go Demon for two reasons:
    1. 5 APS
    2. better sleep/stun/seal

    The rest (1-10%) go sage for:
    1. Bloodpaint
    2. Better tankability
    3. To be different

    A few obvious things:
    Demon has more DPS
    Sage has better survivability

    There really is no way to make a "direct comparison" and reach a fair conclusion. This is because it depends on what you use the sin for. For PvP, the guaranteed sleeps, longer stuns etc are golden for PvP, not to mention the DPS gained from the spark. For PvE, some might prefer the Demon if they can reach high APS for extremely efficient farming, others might prefer the Sage for better tanking and supporting other DDs.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • Fist_Mama - Harshlands
    Fist_Mama - Harshlands Posts: 237 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    90% of sins go demon for the spark if you actually look at it sage skills r alot better.

    EDIT: sins can get 5aps without spark using claws/fist ijs
  • Allilie - Sanctuary
    Allilie - Sanctuary Posts: 22 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    What exactly does the bp upgrade do? more duration or better effect?


    Anyways i think i have quite enough aps as it is... i don't wanna do so much that tanks have trouble, yeah there's cod and stuff but that gimps dmg too. I'm trying to build a medium where i can just go straight useing only shadow escape for aggro drops and not worry about rest.

    I don't do pvp at all really so maybe i might be a better sage sin... especially since that fits more of my play style better anyways with the lower aps.

    besides sleep/stun isn't very effective on bosses and i have no need of those on normal mobs :P so that answers that.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Fist_Mama - Harshlands
    Fist_Mama - Harshlands Posts: 237 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    sage bloodpaint gives u 3% per heal instead of 2%
  • tearvalerin
    tearvalerin Posts: 107 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    demon is far more powerful. at 90+ you only normal attack to dd, why not capitalize on demons speed? sage is a poor choice, and far more costly to make any kind of comparison in damage. there is a reason BMs and archers do the same.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    last name ever, first name greatest
    like a sprained ankle, i aint something you wanna play with.
  • Allilie - Sanctuary
    Allilie - Sanctuary Posts: 22 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    There is also a reason bms and archers go with slower weaps too. Don't give an example and pass it off as fact when a contrary exists XD that is misleading.


    Anyways i see your point, but perhaps i don't want to maximize my offense since at max, a tank can't deal with me. Maybe i like the skills for sage. Maybe i don't use pots for mp/hp anyways when i grind and it's not necessary to capitalize furhter on that.

    We are all entitled to our opinions. In the end the gear and reaction capability of the player will account for most of the characters actual ability.

    I just wanted to see the difference and base a decision on the skills.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • tearvalerin
    tearvalerin Posts: 107 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    There is also a reason bms and archers go with slower weaps too. Don't give an example and pass it off as fact when a contrary exists XD that is misleading.
    wrong, the most popular BM build nowadays is fists. the way they make the most of its damage? -interval and attack speed % boosts (demon). how do archers maximize their damage to make the best of their slow weapons? - interval and attack % boosts (demon). what do they both do for best dps? normal attack, not skills. there is a reason 99% of archers/assassins are demon, and that 90% of my servers old sage BMs transformed into demons off regret of the speed they lack.

    see, there is one thing demons can do that sages cant. attack 5 times per second, which is pretty much the most efficient killing method around nowadays. skills are irrelevant. besides, whats it matter if a tank cant handle you, assassins and BMs do the majority of tanking nowadays anyways.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    last name ever, first name greatest
    like a sprained ankle, i aint something you wanna play with.
  • Allilie - Sanctuary
    Allilie - Sanctuary Posts: 22 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    When you try to tank a world boss don't say a word or you might get bitten xD. All i have to say about that.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    Allilie - Sanctuary wrote: »
    When you try to tank a world boss don't say a word or you might get bitten xD. All i have to say about that.

    My guess in his next comment: "No one tanks WBs with a sin" or "WBs are so 2009, nowadays people do Nirvana for profit"

    Oh, I'll be out of here before this goes down to another "SAGE IS INFERIOR HOW DARE YOU EVEN CONSIDER IT YOU FOOL!" kinda mess.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • tearvalerin
    tearvalerin Posts: 107 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_LghNlSUcs

    LA class tanking harpy wraith lalalalalala. everyone and their cousin knows you love your little white fairy, now go play with your flowers and butterflies in eden.

    edit: note, he is a sage archer, the only sage class that can even hit 5.0, but it stillemphasizes my point... attack speed > damage reduction.(stupid cash shoppers...)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    last name ever, first name greatest
    like a sprained ankle, i aint something you wanna play with.
  • Graey_Rain - Harshlands
    Graey_Rain - Harshlands Posts: 250 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    Well the truth is demons pretty much superior in every way lol. But from your replies to people you seem to have already decided on going sage anyhow. And yeah sage do have some nice skills at the cost of nurfing their damage, but I don't get where people get this idea that sage skills are superior. Yeah bloodpaints good and they do have a few nice skills but demon have good skills too, e.g. stuns, sleep, rib strike, teles etc are better than sage. I'd say the skills are about equal with maybe a slight advantage to sage skills for pve and a big advantage to demon pvp skills. So yeah if you're a total carebear and never pvp and want to lower your damage output for some reason... you can't go wrong picking sage :) I would advise any other sin who wants to do worse damage and have far less pvp ability to do the same thing. However if you want good damage and to be good at pvp, kill things fast and actually get far more hp back off bloddpaint due to your faster attack speed pick demon. Sage are also not better at tanking if the demon has decent interval. With decent aps a demon will tank way better as they can get alot more hp back from bloodpaint and kill faster. I'm demon as you may have gathered, and I can tank loadsa ****. e.g. all fc boss's without a cleric, all bh 79 boss's etc. So why worry about stealing agro off the tank when you can tank yourself and the boss dies in half the time???
    But that's just my very biased opinion lol. I haven't played a sage sin and can't see why anyone would, so any sage sins out there please enlighten me as to which sage skills make everyone say they have far superior skills to demon sins. And lets hear what their good attributes are and stuff. The defence bonus from the spark is obviously nice but I don't think it comes anywhere close to being as good as demon spark for a sin. dagger mastery is good as it adds I think 15% dmg as appose to demon 2% crit. BP's better, powerdash is a little better, shadow escape is nice with the purify affect, tackle lasts a bit longer, maze step lasts a bit longer, errrm thats all i can think of that might be better for sage. All other skills are roughly the same or demon are superior in my opinion. And none of the sage skills are that much better than demon really... so I can't see any reason at all to go sage unless you are purposefully trying to make yourself do less damage like the op and gain a bit more survivability, and I don't know why you'd be playing a sin if you wanted to do low damage and hae good defence :/
    I don't mean this as post as a flame at sage sins btw, I know it's one sided but I just don't see many good sides to going sage, though I know there must be some so please inform me b:cute
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    Graey_Rain - Harshlands wrote: »
    e.g. stuns, sleep,

    Useless outside of PvP...
    rib strike,

    ... both Sage and Demon are good here ...
    actually get far more hp back off bloddpaint due to your faster attack speed pick demon

    Um, Sage bloodpaint heals 50% more. You'd need at least 5 APS for Demon to heal more than Sage. And that's not account Sage Dagger Devotion or Sage Wolf Emblem.
    Sage are also not better at tanking if the demon has decent interval. With decent aps a demon will tank way better as they can get alot more hp back from bloodpaint and kill faster.

    Again, you'd need 5 APS for Demon Bloodpaint to be better than Sage Bloodpaint. And if you can get 5 APS, there really shouldn't be any question which culti to pick.
    so I can't see any reason at all to go sage unless you are purposefully trying to make yourself do less damage like the op and gain a bit more survivability, and I don't know why you'd be playing a sin if you wanted to do low damage and hae good defence :/

    How about "balance"? Sages take a lot less damage due to skills such as Bloodpaint, Sage Spark and Focused Mind.

    The thing is, the way I personally see it is this: Assassins already have massive DPS. My level 80 Assassin with +1 Hook and Thorn has DPS comparable to my level 92 Archer and the gear on my sin is much worse. I see it so that Assassins already deal enough damage as it is, so I'm going Sage to add to their pretty much **** defenses. Also, I like the idea of a permanent Wolf Emblem.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • Graey_Rain - Harshlands
    Graey_Rain - Harshlands Posts: 250 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    I prefer demon wolf emblem as it gives 40% to crit damage rather than lowering it to 20%. But yeah I can see the appeal of making it a permanent buff. Though your point about it giving more hp back to bloodpaint isn't valid as 40% half the time is the same as 20% all the time. Rib strike I think demon is way better as it slows the attack speed down more. Lowering the tagets max hp really isn't that useful in most situations. Sure it does a lot of damage to some boss's if you don't have an archer in the squad to sharptooth it but the speed reduction is far more useful.
    The percentage gain from mastery isn't a lot and won't actually add a considerable amount to damage, or the hp back from bloodpaint. Yeah sage get 50% more from bloodpaint. But sage sins are unlikely to be intervel so probably have 1.25 aps or only a little more. With my sin I'm now at 2.22 aps and will be getting another piece of interval gear as soon as I find someone selling a wing trophy lunar glade for less than 40mil so that will give me 2.44 aps I think? as you can see this is twice the attack speed of an average sage sin. So I will actually be getting more back off bloodpaint than a sage would. Even if a sage had all the same gear as me they would have attack speed 1.82 instead of 2.44 and so they would get a small amount more hp back than me but a pretty negligible amount. The more interval a demon gets the more the difference closes and then increases for the deamon, so at high interval demon sins get more hp back. I get your point about sins already doing good damage and maximising your defencive capabilities instead. If the choice between sage and demon was an equal increase in attack and defence capability i'd pick sage too. But the truth is demon is a massive increase in attack power whilst sage is a small increase in defensive capability. It's like throwing away your jones blessing with 30 attack levels to equip another blessing with 10 defence levels.
  • VeritasXXX - Raging Tide
    VeritasXXX - Raging Tide Posts: 79 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    Graey_Rain - Harshlands wrote: »
    Well the truth is demons pretty much superior in every way lol. But from your replies to people you seem to have already decided on going sage anyhow. And yeah sage do have some nice skills at the cost of nurfing their damage, but I don't get where people get this idea that sage skills are superior. Yeah bloodpaints good and they do have a few nice skills but demon have good skills too, e.g. stuns, sleep, rib strike, teles etc are better than sage. I'd say the skills are about equal with maybe a slight advantage to sage skills for pve and a big advantage to demon pvp skills. So yeah if you're a total carebear and never pvp and want to lower your damage output for some reason... you can't go wrong picking sage :) I would advise any other sin who wants to do worse damage and have far less pvp ability to do the same thing. However if you want good damage and to be good at pvp, kill things fast and actually get far more hp back off bloddpaint due to your faster attack speed pick demon. Sage are also not better at tanking if the demon has decent interval. With decent aps a demon will tank way better as they can get alot more hp back from bloodpaint and kill faster. I'm demon as you may have gathered, and I can tank loadsa ****. e.g. all fc boss's without a cleric, all bh 79 boss's etc. So why worry about stealing agro off the tank when you can tank yourself and the boss dies in half the time???
    But that's just my very biased opinion lol. I haven't played a sage sin and can't see why anyone would, so any sage sins out there please enlighten me as to which sage skills make everyone say they have far superior skills to demon sins. And lets hear what their good attributes are and stuff. The defence bonus from the spark is obviously nice but I don't think it comes anywhere close to being as good as demon spark for a sin. dagger mastery is good as it adds I think 15% dmg as appose to demon 2% crit. BP's better, powerdash is a little better, shadow escape is nice with the purify affect, tackle lasts a bit longer, maze step lasts a bit longer, errrm thats all i can think of that might be better for sage. All other skills are roughly the same or demon are superior in my opinion. And none of the sage skills are that much better than demon really... so I can't see any reason at all to go sage unless you are purposefully trying to make yourself do less damage like the op and gain a bit more survivability, and I don't know why you'd be playing a sin if you wanted to do low damage and hae good defence :/
    I don't mean this as post as a flame at sage sins btw, I know it's one sided but I just don't see many good sides to going sage, though I know there must be some so please inform me b:cute




    < -- sage Sin
    Not a care bear
    <-- thinks the Sage skills ARE better
    1 skill that blows demon sins is sage dagger devotion 30% damage per hit.
    Keeps us up with your APS.
    Sage sins don't do low damage :P
    we can do more unless you are sparked.
    Demon is more PvE not sage.
    APS for sins really only helps on BMs and Barbs.
    If they arent dead in a few hits we are.
    4 aps sage sin with 30% more damage with every hit or
    5aps sin
    Sage can do alot more damage if you know how to play them
    b:pleased
  • VeritasXXX - Raging Tide
    VeritasXXX - Raging Tide Posts: 79 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    Graey_Rain - Lowering the tagets max hp really isn't that useful in most situations.


    Lie. Raise your PvP count and you will see :P. You are on a PvP server.b:thanks
  • Graey_Rain - Harshlands
    Graey_Rain - Harshlands Posts: 250 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    Veritas are you trying to troll or just a bit ignorant :S lol demon dagger mastery = 75% plus 2% crit. sage mastery = 90%. 90-75 =/= 30 it's 15... your mastery does 15% more than demon. And that is only to weapon damage. If you do the numbers it adds a small bit of damage to your patk. That in no way shape or form keeps up with our faster attack speed. And you think sage are more for pvp and demon pve???? lol. How did you come to that conclusion? Demon clearly have superior stuns and sleeps and teleport moves along with considerably higher damage... And sage have better bloodpaint and moves targeted more to pve. Don't get why you think demon is pve. Demon sins are just about the best solo pvp class in the game. And you don't only need good aps to kill heavies. If I fought you right now I'd have higher aps = higher dps = you die before me. Plus Demons have longer stuns and better sleep so demon has the advanage in pk. How do you kill light armour or robe classes? You stunlock them, so demon has advantage. How do you kill heavy classes? You gotta spark to do enough damage to take them down fast so sleep themspark, stun them wack away. Demon are clearly superior at pvp. You maybe don't know this because you play a pve server... and I only kill red names. Hence I don't have a huge pvp count. But i've fought hundreds of duels with my sin and pvpd more than enough with my other characters to know what's usefull in pvp and what isnt. As for sage ribstrike being useful in pvp no... just no. Against a barb with 30k hp you can do 3k dmg... big woop. Or I can sleep him spark tangle mire headhunt and auto attack, tele stun, attack, seal, immobilise, attack, occult ice, attack and eventually kill him lol. The 10% hp reduction is nothing in pvp. And you don't have sage rib anyway as you are too low lvl so don't pretend like you know how useful it is in pvp lol
  • VeritasXXX - Raging Tide
    VeritasXXX - Raging Tide Posts: 79 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    Graey_Rain - Harshlands wrote: »
    Veritas are you trying to troll or just a bit ignorant :S lol demon dagger mastery = 75% plus 2% crit. sage mastery = 90%. 90-75 =/= 30 it's 15... your mastery does 15% more than demon. And that is only to weapon damage. If you do the numbers it adds a small bit of damage to your patk. That in no way shape or form keeps up with our faster attack speed. And you think sage are more for pvp and demon pve???? lol. How did you come to that conclusion? Demon clearly have superior stuns and sleeps and teleport moves along with considerably higher damage... And sage have better bloodpaint and moves targeted more to pve. Don't get why you think demon is pve. Demon sins are just about the best solo pvp class in the game. And you don't only need good aps to kill heavies. If I fought you right now I'd have higher aps = higher dps = you die before me. Plus Demons have longer stuns and better sleep so demon has the advanage in pk. How do you kill light armour or robe classes? You stunlock them, so demon has advantage. How do you kill heavy classes? You gotta spark to do enough damage to take them down fast so sleep themspark, stun them wack away. Demon are clearly superior at pvp. You maybe don't know this because you play a pve server... and I only kill red names. Hence I don't have a huge pvp count. But i've fought hundreds of duels with my sin and pvpd more than enough with my other characters to know what's usefull in pvp and what isnt. As for sage ribstrike being useful in pvp no... just no. Against a barb with 30k hp you can do 3k dmg... big woop. Or I can sleep him spark tangle mire headhunt and auto attack, tele stun, attack, seal, immobilise, attack, occult ice, attack and eventually kill him lol. The 10% hp reduction is nothing in pvp. And you don't have sage rib anyway as you are too low lvl so don't pretend like you know how useful it is in pvp lol


    Actually APS while useful doesn't mean you can take me in a 1v1 fight :P skill>APS
    PvE servers have great PK the difference is i can decide when i want to do it.
    Also note less HP is obviously useful why do you think people use citrine shards? to gain more HP with lesss they die faster its a no-brainer i dont need to have the skill to know its useful.
    10% less HP on a target that also slows there att rate hmmm.
    Sage does have a few support oriented skills like you stated (bloodpaint)
    Also i hope you can find a way to make quit a bit of $ for that 5 APS :P.
    While the Free APS is great its useless in TW you wont last long with no def
    in most PK its not 1v1 GL trying to live longer then 10s your APS means nothing.
    Sage sins can effectively take 47% less damage

    Sage Spark reduces all damage you take by 25%. Sage Focused Mind reduces all damage to 1 33% of the time and can be active 2/3 of the time, so in total Sage Focused Mind reduces ALL damage by 2/3 * 1/3 = 2/9 = 22%. These total add to 47%. That's just about the same as the damage reduction from BB.

    Less damage = more time to DD more of a chance to kill someone in PVP and able to survive ganks and take more then one player. As is TW most PvP.
    Demon is really only useful 1v1 sage lets you try more options in NORMAL PvP which is ganks from hell ect exactly like TW.
    Demon is more PvE as it makes for fast runs through frost ect because of the APS
    Sage can PvP just as well if not better then demon sins.
    It depends all on playing style skill
    and what PvP situation your in.
    Demons are the best choice from 89 but sage sins start to show around 99
    Demons = instant satisfaction
    Sage= Harder to earn but can be very pleasing endgame.

    BTW sorry got the D Dev wrong :P its 3am my time b:surrender
  • kenlee
    kenlee Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    any sage or demon skill with similar effects (subsea, wolf emblem, bloodpaint+atk rate, etc) are about the same overall or just 1-2% difference between them. there are sage or demon skills that are entirely different, like shadow escape or throatcut or whatever. those demon skills are more pvp oriented than sage.
    in the end, demon can deal 25% more damage while sage is a bit better at taking hits. plenty of archers tanked things in the past with melee weapons but now when there is bloodpaint for sins... there is no much problems tanking unless you lack interval or you have a death wish like solo tanking some impossible things like steelation or emperor xD

    edit:
    lol in pvp hp debuff and atk rate means jack... triple spark is like a self purify.
    sage sins take 47% less damage... lol you're kidding right? the difference is, sage takes 50% of some boss/player damage overall and demon get like 60% damage from same boss/player but kill 25% faster.
    focus mind is same 25% for both.
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    Graey_Rain - Harshlands wrote: »
    I prefer demon wolf emblem as it gives 40% to crit damage rather than lowering it to 20%. But yeah I can see the appeal of making it a permanent buff. Though your point about it giving more hp back to bloodpaint isn't valid as 40% half the time is the same as 20% all the time.

    Yes, 40% half the time is the same as 20% all the time, but you have to also take into account that there's a 50% chance that any mob that you kill will die while Wolf Emblem is in cooldown, in which case your actual damage increase against that mob is less than 20%.
    Rib strike I think demon is way better as it slows the attack speed down more. Lowering the tagets max hp really isn't that useful in most situations. Sure it does a lot of damage to some boss's if you don't have an archer in the squad to sharptooth it but the speed reduction is far more useful.

    ... It's like you're talking that Sage Rib Strike doesn't have the 50% reduction. And the extra 15% isn't really that much, since most mobs have a really low attack speed to begin with.
    The percentage gain from mastery isn't a lot and won't actually add a considerable amount to damage, or the hp back from bloodpaint. Yeah sage get 50% more from bloodpaint. But sage sins are unlikely to be intervel so probably have 1.25 aps or only a little more. With my sin I'm now at 2.22 aps and will be getting another piece of interval gear as soon as I find someone selling a wing trophy lunar glade for less than 40mil so that will give me 2.44 aps I think?

    Um, what the hell? There's absolutely no reason why a Sage wouldn't have the same amount of -interval as a Demon, therefore giving the Demon only the advantage they gain from the spark.
    as you can see this is twice the attack speed of an average sage sin. So I will actually be getting more back off bloodpaint than a sage would. Even if a sage had all the same gear as me they would have attack speed 1.82 instead of 2.44 and so they would get a small amount more hp back than me but a pretty negligible amount.

    Um, what the hell? So "average sage sins" somehow have 1.25 APS? No, that's bull****. Any competent sin will have at least 1.33 by 80. Me, I got 1.54 and I'm on my way to 1.82.
    The more interval a demon gets the more the difference closes and then increases for the deamon, so at high interval demon sins get more hp back.

    Um, no. A sage will have higher heals unless you have 5 APS. And in the case that you have 5 APS, why the hell would you go sage? As for how you get that numbers:

    Sage heal = DPH * AR(s) * 0.03
    Demon heal : DPH * AR(d) * 0.02

    Sage heal / Demon heal = 1.5 * AR(s/d)

    That is, the Demon sin needs 50% more attacks than a Sage. If you're actually fair and say that they have the same -interval, then that means that for Demon to heal more than Sage, you need for the Demon Spark to boost your attack rate by 50%. Now, you need 2.86 APS unsparked for permaspark, so let's see that: 4 / 2.86 = 1.3986014. Not quite enough, I see. Let's try 5 APS : 5 / 3.33 = 1.5015015. See, you get 0.15% more life healed now. Also, due to the nature of attack speed, it's true that none of the values below 5 APS can reach the same or a higher ratio. Therefore, you need 5 APS to heal better than a Sage.

    And again, I am not saying that Sage > Demon. I am just saying that Sage isn't as horrible as people make it seem. And I'm not saying that, if I had the choice to go 5 APS demon or a 4 APS Sage, that I'd go Sage 100%.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • Allilie - Sanctuary
    Allilie - Sanctuary Posts: 22 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    VeritasXXX - Raging Tide wrote: »


    < -- sage Sin
    Not a care bear
    <-- thinks the Sage skills ARE better
    1 skill that blows demon sins is sage dagger devotion 30% damage per hit.
    Keeps us up with your APS.
    Sage sins don't do low damage :P
    we can do more unless you are sparked.
    Demon is more PvE not sage.
    APS for sins really only helps on BMs and Barbs.
    If they arent dead in a few hits we are.
    4 aps sage sin with 30% more damage with every hit or
    5aps sin
    Sage can do alot more damage if you know how to play them
    b:pleased


    Thank you. I was hoping a sage would show up. I've been talking to sage sins on my server and what i've discovered is pretty funny. This about sums it up.


    Further more my interest in sage is influenced by two other factors:

    1. i don't like pvp, or at least not in a serious sense, i do duel, and would love to try a tw once or twice, but anything pvp related or that would be a pvp bonus is completely void in decision making. So you guys can stop bringing those up here ^^.

    2. Bp is more a squad benefit, i don't solo so often that aps and whatnot matters, and even if it did here's the kicker: i don't need pots of any sort anyways on quests mobs, so why should i want more when it's not necessary in solo play? Refering to aps. Good gear makes the whole aps thing void as well, since, as proven by actual sages, there is only a slight difference in damage abilities between the two classes. Our hard work on our gear is what will make the difference.

    I would prefer not to have myself as a Light Armored tank, everything from repair costs, to increased stress on a cleric are factors in that. So once again all the extra aps nuking of a demon is very minute as an attraction. Demon does not fit, and is fairly contrary to how i have successfully played up to this point, and want to continue playing. My decision on sage is based on calculation and talking to people.


    Btw i am extremely appreciative of the debate here, i realize that demon is in some ways better, just not in the ways that matter to me. This is a good debate we have for those who might not be suited for demon :).
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    Allilie - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I would prefer not to have myself as a Light Armored tank, everything from repair costs, to increased stress on a cleric are factors in that. So once again all the extra aps nuking of a demon is very minute as an attraction. Demon does not fit, and is fairly contrary to how i have successfully played up to this point, and want to continue playing. My decision on sage is based on calculation and talking to people.

    Btw i am extremely appreciative of the debate here, i realize that demon is in some ways better, just not in the ways that matter to me. This is a good debate we have for those who might not be suited for demon :).

    Personally, it's like this: I have a Demon Archer, so I know how DDs work. I've been in factions where people have asked for help and the only thing I have been able to say is "if you get a squad, I can come DD", which isn't that great, in my opinion. Also, the way I see it is that sins already have enough damage, so they make great DDs with either cultivation. From there on, it just comes to comparing the benefits from the skills, and I arrived at wanting Sage. Though, the first reason I ever thought of going Sage for was permanent Wolf Emblem.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • Typhyse - Sanctuary
    Typhyse - Sanctuary Posts: 3,469 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Personally, it's like this: I have a Demon Archer, so I know how DDs work. I've been in factions where people have asked for help and the only thing I have been able to say is "if you get a squad, I can come DD", which isn't that great, in my opinion. Also, the way I see it is that sins already have enough damage, so they make great DDs with either cultivation. From there on, it just comes to comparing the benefits from the skills, and I arrived at wanting Sage. Though, the first reason I ever thought of going Sage for was permanent Wolf Emblem.

    Very well said.
    I have decided to go Demon for now just for the spark. Once I am rich enough to afford some lvl 11 skills, I'll respec to Sage.
    Although...Demon Ribstrike is really grabbing my attention...
    Demon_Troll: "takes on the appearance of an innocent archer but turns into a mindless idiot once you hear him speak"
    ~Spazz~
  • tearvalerin
    tearvalerin Posts: 107 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    Allilie - Sanctuary wrote: »
    stuff about moron who cant even differ between masteries.
    that 'sage' sin is extremely ignorant. they dont even know the difference between the two masteries.
    one is 90% the other is 75% + 2% crit. NOW watch this lovely little math problem using the formula for determining attack!

    (1 + 400 / 150 + .90 + 5) / (1 + 400 / 150 +.75 + 5) = 1.016 ~ or a 1.6% difference in damage while sparked. BUT seeing as the demon is attacking 25% faster, the demon is stronger. if you are going to come and spout nonsense, at least have the proof to back it up. 30% my ****... freakin moron sage.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    last name ever, first name greatest
    like a sprained ankle, i aint something you wanna play with.
  • Allilie - Sanctuary
    Allilie - Sanctuary Posts: 22 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    First off i never said i didn't know anything. I asked for a comparison so i could make my final decision.

    Thank you very much for not learning how to read. Since you want to flame you can gtfo.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • tearvalerin
    tearvalerin Posts: 107 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    Allilie - Sanctuary wrote: »
    First off i never said i didn't know anything. I asked for a comparison so i could make my final decision.

    Thank you very much for not learning how to read. Since you want to flame you can gtfo.
    look whos talking, everything veritas said was wrong. you already came into the picture wanting to be a sage, why did you even bother making this thread if you knew you wouldn't have been convinced otherwise. since you have no comprehension on how to differentiate what is fact and what is some idiot's assumptions, then you have no place here.

    fact: sage does worse damage
    fact: the difference between mastery is insignificant as demonstrated in my math
    fiction: sages are better in pve.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    last name ever, first name greatest
    like a sprained ankle, i aint something you wanna play with.
  • Typhyse - Sanctuary
    Typhyse - Sanctuary Posts: 3,469 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    tearvalerin wrote: »
    fact: sage does worse damage
    fact: the difference between mastery is insignificant as demonstrated in my math
    fiction: sages are better in pve.

    Citation needed.
    Demon_Troll: "takes on the appearance of an innocent archer but turns into a mindless idiot once you hear him speak"
    ~Spazz~
  • Kupuntu - Sanctuary
    Kupuntu - Sanctuary Posts: 3,008 Arc User
    edited October 2010
    Options
    Typhyse - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Citation needed.

    1) I believe he's talking about crit% vs. weapon damage.
    2) Weapon damage changes, not overall damage. The overall damage difference is not too big.
    3) 25% interval decrease vs. 25% less damage taken, also other skills.

    These are just guesses, I don't know for sure.
    VeritasXXX - Raging Tide wrote: »

    1 skill that blows demon sins is sage dagger devotion 30% damage per hit.

    Research before talking, it's not like that.
    100% F2P player. Started PW: March 2007, Quit PW: March 2011.
    pwcalc.com/e7016929e7b204ae "Pure axe" 8k HP multipath BM, last one of my kind.
  • Neddih - Harshlands
    Neddih - Harshlands Posts: 50 Arc User
    edited October 2010
    Options
    Both are good in their own respects.

    Sage sins should get as much interval as they can, just like demon sins.

    the amount of actual math to calculate all of the differences i dont even want to begin.

    you have to consider:

    sage permanent wolf emblem vs. constantly buffing demon wolf emblem
    (who does this? it gets buffed at beginning or before a pvp thats about all i see)

    Demon DOES have 75% dagger devotion. i really dont know why people keep forgetting this when comparing, and if someone says 15% is not a big difference stop sharding and refining your stuff, cause every % and damage bonus makes a difference.

    sage focused mind does have GREAT evasion as i have it myself and get consistant 1 damages both in pvp and pve tanking bosses/mobs.

    Demon has great stuns for pvp, but with maxed stuns without demon version you still have decent stun lock and can usually kill your opponent before it wears off unless they anti-stun at which point your longer stuns don't matter as much anyway.

    25% attack speed bonus and being able to keep it up nearly constantly even at lower intervals is amazing. attack speed for sage can be achieved from genie but is shorter duration and eats up your genies stamina and energy, but genie can achieve higher % (mines at 30%)

    being a DD you need aps and dps regardless of if the barb can hold agro. if people didnt want the boss to die fast they wouldn't invite you to begin with.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited October 2010
    Options
    Neddih - Harshlands wrote: »
    Both are good in their own respects.

    Sage sins should get as much interval as they can, just like demon sins.

    the amount of actual math to calculate all of the differences i dont even want to begin.

    Well in reality, it'd be two extremely annoying functions, one for survivability and one for damage. The Eye of Observation does something similar, but I'd believe it only takes into account the information shown, e.g damage, resistances, level, class, atk/def levels.

    And even then, you'd end up having to choose, unless one happened to come up superior on both. If not, then you'd have to pick based on the same criteria people nowadays do it.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • kenlee
    kenlee Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    tearvalerin wrote: »
    that 'sage' sin is extremely ignorant. they dont even know the difference between the two masteries.
    one is 90% the other is 75% + 2% crit. NOW watch this lovely little math problem using the formula for determining attack!

    (1 + 400 / 150 + .90 + 5) / (1 + 400 / 150 +.75 + 5) = 1.016 ~ or a 1.6% difference in damage while sparked. BUT seeing as the demon is attacking 25% faster, the demon is stronger. if you are going to come and spout nonsense, at least have the proof to back it up. 30% my ****... freakin moron sage.
    its less than 1.6% since there are +2% more crits to take into account and usually more than 450 dex
    and there is more than 25% more damage as demon since you can count on fingers the number or rank 8 sins
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