Sage vs Demon

Sage all the way and I'm not there yet lol

i spent several levels deciding on whether to go Sage or Demon. i came to pretty much much one conclusion, it does depend on your play style. no matter how you slice it, how you play affects the "skills" you want. i see far more benefits for "demon" in the lone/aggressive/pvp sin. however, playing on a pve server as i do and trying to maintain a "team" mindset when it comes to instances and such, i find that "sage" produces a more efficient and effective way to go. my reasons are as follows: 1, bp of course in a squad setting.2, sparking for heal does allieviate some of the stress off of the cleric who does have to try and keep everyone alive. 3, albeit sad to say,having a slight reduction in damage can be a good thing, squadwise. the cleric can focus on the tank, as well s purifies,etc. and the tank doesn't have to focus on keeping aggro and risk running low on manna at a crucial point. 3, i really find that Throatcut can be a squad saver at times. especially when at Sge lvl it is 100% guaranteed to interupt enemy channeling, followed by knife throw with a 70% chance. this can save many party wipes at a crucial point in battle. anyways, everyone has they're playstyle and preferences. i just wanted to share my particular reasons for going sage over the much "cooler", even in my eyes "demon".

JFYI, I have beaten a Sage sin with almost that very gear several times, and she's 91 or 92 (thought at this stage in the game, a few levels does not make that much of a difference in PvP). However, she's a vit build and not much of a dueler.

I'm not trying to deter you from that culti/gearing, I'm just letting you know what I've observed.
But then again, any build can suck if in the wrong hands: Demon/DPS as well as Sage/DPH.

today i'll hit 89 lv b:victory n i'll go demon, another demon sin in DW but i wonder if tank gonna be able to keep aggro at bh69 after 3rd sparkb:laugh

honestly imo, sage is pretty useless unless ur loaded. and by loaded, i mean u can afford love up and down from lv1. skills, whether or not ur sage or demon are usually 5m+ each just for the book because theres no skills in fb89 for tideborn. so for the average player, u prob wont ever get the skills that make sage sins better than demon. so u might as well do what ur meant to do: dd. and demon = better dd.

plus, in pvp u never triple spark unless ur against HA. and if ur fighting HA, the only reason to spark is to dps like crazy past the charm. sage spark again, doesnt help.

basically, only reason to go sage is if u can afford 3.33/4 aps as a sage sin

i c all of your points but when it comes down to it weather to go sage or demon it all depends on you play style my char is not high enough to go ether one yet. but it will be in time

HeIIz - Lost City wrote: »

I've also taken my sage sin through frost and have been asked to go again because I actually rib strike and subsea on the bosses.

I hate sins who don't do this -.- I violate my MP using just those two skills >>

Typhyse - Sanctuary wrote: »

I hate sins who don't do this -.- I violate my MP using just those two skills >>

Personally, my usage of Subsea depends totally on the situation. Often, I'm the highest DD in squad and pushing myself through another cycle of triple sparking would require usage of Inner Harmony or Rising Dragon Strike, which means I cannot necessarily fire off Triple Spark -> Subsea. Or then the other DDs are obviously much weaker than me, such as a Wizard, or an Axe BM or an Archer using TT80, in which case me triple sparking over using Subsea would benefit the squad more.

Also, some people like to use Extreme Poison, which pretty much makes Subsea a waste of two good sparks on anything but grouped-up mobs, since EP is cheaper, faster, spammable and has a longer duration. And they cancel each other.

Rib Strike I try to keep up, but I will not sacrifice time on my spark to Rib Strike, simply because that's often not best for the DPS.

Demons: how often do you manage to fire off your wolf emblem in the middle of pvp?

I'd imagine a lot of people get permastealth and buff with Wolf Emblem before engaging in combat. In-combat, Wolf Emblem is a bit of a bad choice since, at least on my sin, it interrupts auto-attacking.

My experience on archer is that triple spark is rarely helpful and demon blazing arrow is inferior to the sage perma-buff due to not being usable mid-pvp.

Archers also get a lot less chi gain than Sins. And btw, Demon Blazing Arrow is permanent at 50% regular, 120% for the duration. And that means it averages 53%, IIRC. Which means the Sage version isn't that much better.

Sages: have any of you worked out what that 15% extra damage every attack means in terms of real numbers? any quotes?

Well, most people have concluded that it comes to a pretty small amount of damage due to the crit bonus that demons get, counting from an assumed 400 dex. Like below:

Damage for Dagger: (1+Dex/150+mastery)

Demons get (1+400/150+0.75) = 4.4166
Sages get (1+400/150 + 0.9) = 4.5666

Now Sage/Demon gives you 4.566/4.4166 = 1.034

Now, compare the crits:
400 dex = 20% crit
Rings = 2x3% crit = 6% crit
Total: 26% Base Crit

Demons Get: 26+2% = 28%
Sages Get: 26+0% = 26%

Now Sage/Demon gives you 26/28 = 0.92857143

Now Sage/Demon ends up as: 1.034*0.92857143 = 0.96010781

So in effect, Sages would be looking at ~4% less DPH. However, this value is extremely inaccurate. For example, I can bet that any actual level 100 Assassin has more than 400 dex and more than 26% crit. Also, if you included Wolf Emblem in the Sage crit multiplier, which you should as it's a permanent buff for them, you'd see that Sage actually gets more damage increase from their crits than Demon on average. The same is obviously true in practice, even if you used Demon Wolf Emblem as it's bound to run out on you and then your true time spent on Demon Wolf Emblem is actually less than 50% of the time.

However:
Since you can assume that every sin at level 100 has at least 400 dex, the most Sages get from their mastery is that 3%
Since you can assume that every sin at level 100 has at least 26% crit, the most Demons get from their mastery is that ~7.7%
So in terms of DPH, the two classes are actually so close to each other than comparing DPH is pretty much pointless

ot depends on what you want to do if your just going to go solo fb and PvE all day vana fcc ex you want demon but if you want to PvP sage is the way to go is u put sage sin skills side by side to demon sage has the better effects i myself am a demon sin and my sage friend kicks my *** in pvp all day

Azzazin - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Both sage sins & demon sins can do well in pvp; to do massive dmg in pve, obviously demon is preferred. Ideally, level another alt sin, make sage, get sage bloodpaint, and then buff your demon sin with sage bloodpaint. No joke, I know some people have done this.

There is one sin our DW who can one shot over 90% of the server. Basically, everbody except the really badass high hp bms and barbs. Takes a couple more hits for that. Why? R9, 180 or something attack levels. With sage skills you can undeniably hit harder.

Demon is definitely a cheaper way to do enough dps to kill the heavy armors. And you know, you don't need to spark to do dmg if you are demon, because you'll have a higher aps unsparked. To kill a heavy, a sage who ain't r9 will probably have to spark for sure (talkin about the really good heavy armor ppl, now).

That being said, a demon assassin with r9 daggers has the highest dps of any class and any wep, and you can still output nasty dph. Who really cares if you can't one hit somebody; all you really need to do is bypass the charm. With a bit of cleverness that isn't that hard.

So? Go demon for lotsa dmg pve, and then go make a sage sin too. Have yur cake and eat it too, ovay!

Azzazin

Lolwat? Unsparked aps is unsparked aps; sage and demon can both acquire the same... so how is a demon having more then sage?

Gaahhh still confused, well ive like 7 more levels to decide.

I'm going to be sage, it seems great one sage sin 4aps.
My combo for bosses would be Rib Strike (bye 10% HPb:chuckle), Sage Spark>Inner Harmony>Power Dash>Extreme Poison>Tangling Mire.
if it's one bad combo, I would love suggestions b:dirty

Allilie - Sanctuary wrote: »

I've been reading these threads up and down. Trying to decide which path i'd like, and for most part it's difficult choice. What i am looking for is an actual comparison side by side... the differences between sage and demon sin.

This would include skills as well as the aps and basic bonuses. If there's a thread i can visit i would like to be directed there. I've sorted through threads for an hour and i don't have so much time in the day to spend 2 hours rooting through to find what i'm looking for. So road map pl0x, or if there isn't a thread like what i want, to compare the 2 paths directly, then posting it here would be nice. Thank you

the sin need speed so go DEMON

<=== Sage with vit build at lvl 90 I have over 5k hp unbuffed and I can tank most things that have squad wiped... well everyone

Also have a genie that raises my att speed... Should look into it... The build I got for 101 is a lil crazy but still a work in progress... Need to change somethings around before I get there.b:pleased

Dun dun dun, and another one bites the dust.