Caster Vana is Amazing thanks pwe

Ikarium - Dreamweaver · September 2011

Magicsaber - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Yea, I remember it.

Tank - > Cleric - > Other characters - this was sequence of items distribution between squad members of TT(old HH) squad.

This was before.

And same is now, as I think (at each random squad).

I had been at TT once only, because it was useless for DD.

Same is now.

Nirvana (casters only) is very good instance to try at high levels.

I mean for casters.

Nirvana being good to try at 'high levels' is a moot thing to say since the instance itself is minimum level 100 to even go.
The level is not the problem, its the elitist squads that plagued normal Nirvana, that is spreading to Caster Nirvana already wanting +10 gear.

And yes, TT distribution is the same now, only now if you have friends or a good faction, you can get more mats in less time with APS people in squads, even if you are not APS. Simply because the runs are faster. The problem, again, is the playerbase not taking wizards, psys, venos, etc...the game itself does not exlcude them in any way.

Olbaze - Sanctuary · September 2011

LadyBats - Archosaur wrote: »

lollol sage sin here too bud so dont go spouting off "you dont know what your talking about" bull to me. The point with blood paint i was making was if aps weren't around and daggers were stuck at 1.5 aps (as your saying its their damage thats the big issue, not their attack per second) blood paint, even sage wouldnt be enough for sins to heal themselves uncharmed. Whats better blood painting for 300 every second, or blood painting for 200 five times every second(sage blood paint IS endlessly better than demon, but if you only attack with one hit a second , its not enough to do instances like nirvana cleric less.)

... Again my point isnt sage vs demon, its that aps ARE the thing making instances going faster, not giant weapon damage. I did a nirvana with a full +12 r9 josd wizzard and a r9 psy and it took about 10 mins longer than it does with 4 aps sins.

You're obviously not thinking straight.

The point Empu is making is simple. DPS does not equal APS. The correlation between the two only exists when your refines are low or you're talking about crappy weapons or <2 aps. At endgame, the DPH starts mattering a lot. For example, a 2.86 R9 Sage is going to out-dps most 5 aps sins.

Abstractive - Archosaur · September 2011

Caster Nirvana is amazing, thank you so much PWE ! Oh wait...we're not in Kansas anymore. My wizard is dead.

Empu - Sanctuary · September 2011

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

You're obviously not thinking straight.

The point Empu is making is simple. DPS does not equal APS. The correlation between the two only exists when your refines are low or you're talking about crappy weapons or <2 aps. At endgame, the DPH starts mattering a lot. For example, a 2.86 R9 Sage is going to out-dps most 5 aps sins.

This, ty Olba. It's not 5 aps itself that makes "zomg, OP damage", if that was the case, archers would be super wanted for vana.

I would like to know LadyBats, what was the weap grade and refining of those 4 aps sins? I doubt it were +3 fcc fists or something like that. Maybe you get my point now? If you get in a squad with all 5 aps, but nobody refined higher then +3, your vana or TT will be horribly long. And from personal experience, longer then with epic geared caster classes.

Mitachi - Dreamweaver · September 2011

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

You're either blind or naif. Besides, unless some major schizophrenia from my side, it doesn't make sence my sin has networking skills, and my barb not at all.

Anyway, I don't think you get it :
-I'm a sin
-I can solo any TT in the same time as you do with your squad, if not faster
-I have no problem getting squads for vana, since I'm instand spammed for it when logging on
-I am not even "aps", since I'm sage and have 2.86 aps. Yet I outdamage the fast majority of the 5 aps miracle DD. Plz don't tell me it's just aps that makes TT go fast.
-Any fix like suggested would greatly reduce my own capacity to farm 3-3 on my own, yet I'm in favor of a nerf. I am on first line to see how broken the game has become.
-I think this caster vana is great, because I'm aware of class discrimination. The regular "get yourself friend" or "find a faction" is just negating reality of the game state atm. Besides, I want to take casters on squad because they are usefull in squad, not out of charity.

Since I'm a sage sin, I think I know better what it does then you actually. Especially your bp argument shows you don't know what you're saying. Try out normal vana with several wizzards/psys with +10 r8 weapons, instead of some aps DD with deicides +3. Or make your 4 aps +10 r8 sins into 5 aps with g13 vana and +3 refines. High refines matter a lot, way more then aps. Anyway you turn it, with todays average gear, there won't be 2h+ TT like before.

Well you werent in the old tt era then, but you know what your right omagawd so right if you say so okay hfb:bye

Decus - Dreamweaver · September 2011

Mitachi - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Well you werent in the old tt era then, but you know what your right omagawd so right if you say so okay hfb:bye

What a well-constructed and intellectually stimulating retort.

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

-I think this caster vana is great, because I'm aware of class discrimination. The regular "get yourself friend" or "find a faction" is just negating reality of the game state atm. Besides, I want to take casters on squad because they are usefull in squad, not out of charity.

This is an excellent point. +1

Mitachi - Dreamweaver · September 2011

Decus - Dreamweaver wrote: »

What a well-constructed and intellectually stimulating retort.

This is an excellent point. +1

Yup, if people don't get my point the first time i don't bother explaining further.b:cute

Empu - Sanctuary · September 2011

Mitachi - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Well you werent in the old tt era then, but you know what your right omagawd so right if you say so okay hfb:bye

If you really are of that era yourself, you would know what I mean about todays gear average. I did play (on my barb) when TT was 2h+ to complete 2-3, and doing AE was totally out of the picture. When herc was the ultimate DD, because TT90 +3 and a flawless shard was uber-epic and calamity axes was "endgame barb weapon". See a link with what I posted before? Let me put it more clear : My cleric gets aggro of a herc on lvl? bosses.

I think you have no idea how available gear, massive mirages and orb sales affect the damage of an average player. But you can put that all on "aps". Not gonna argue more. It is exactly why I avoid wc idiots that just look for an aps figure that doesn't represent anything. If you even knew wizzies with -60% channel or more on +10 g13 or higher weaps, you would understand how silly it is to prefer some +3 deicides even if that is 5 aps.

SashaGray - Heavens Tear · September 2011

Why are there 2 sins having a sage v demon, aps v dps arguement in this thread? Irrelevant arguement is irrelevant. Gtfo to sin forum.

Mitachi - Dreamweaver · September 2011

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

If you really are of that era yourself, you would know what I mean about todays gear average. I did play (on my barb) when TT was 2h+ to complete 2-3, and doing AE was totally out of the picture. When herc was the ultimate DD, because TT90 +3 and a flawless shard was uber-epic and calamity axes was "endgame barb weapon". See a link with what I posted before? Let me put it more clear : My cleric gets aggro of a herc on lvl? bosses.

I think you have no idea how available gear, massive mirages and orb sales affect the damage of an average player. But you can put that all on "aps". Not gonna argue more. It is exactly why I avoid wc idiots that just look for an aps figure that doesn't represent anything. If you even knew wizzies with -60% channel or more on +10 g13 or higher weaps, you would understand how silly it is to prefer some +3 deicides even if that is 5 aps.

Okay im gonna try this once more. Please read carefully. I have no problem with casters im glad they got this nirvy but what do they do when their 3 runs are over? Sit around and do nothing? I know that a +10 wiz with r8 hits like a truck like a psy, i NEVER implied that they were useless. Just remember if you can afford 5aps you can afford atleast a +5 weapon. Im not saying they make the world go round. Im simply saying its made farming slightly easier. If your implying your cleric gets aggro in nirvana then that is because the boss has random aggro, i've never dd'd in nirvy since im always healing. I remember the times when full TT90 was considered OP. I remember the agonizing tt's that i went to where i'd get nothing but the leftovers aka shatty mats. (was bm in that era) But now things are split nicer, people sell the mats then split the money just like they do in nirvana. But like someone else said earlier, is it really fair to nerf aps when there are a whole lot of nice people with 5aps willing to help non-aps people? For some people yes its been unfair, but the only thing to do is keep trying. Remember wizzy/psy can do like what 30k+ uncrit to a boss over 1 sec (If they have 60% channel) while a sin can do 85k per sec with hf? Wizzy/psy's are great in pvp. But lets face reality, sins beat everything with 5aps with the current game status. I do know wizzy's/psy's get used in TW for their truck hitting spells yet no one will help them and expect them to hit hard. The point i was trying to get across is Aps made it slightly easier, personally i hate caster nirvana, took 300k off my charm. But if other people can deal with it, good for them. I did 8 runs today with a wizzy, my hubby (sin) another sin and 2 bms runs took like 15min each. We all got great drops. Im nice to wizzy's and psy's so i have nothing to worry about. But im greatful for aps mercy on them and i.

Olbaze - Sanctuary · September 2011

Mitachi - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Okay im gonna try this once more. Please read carefully. I have no problem with casters im glad they got this nirvy but what do they do when their 3 runs are over? Sit around and do nothing? I know that a +10 wiz with r8 hits like a truck like a psy, i NEVER implied that they were useless. Just remember if you can afford 5aps you can afford atleast a +5 weapon.

Wrong. A lot, and I mean a lot, of people spend all of their coin on getting the gear and ignoring shards and refines. This results in people with gear that costs 500m with refines and shards that cost maybe 15m. And trust me, a lot of people do that. Because really, a lot of people have been made to believe that aps = dps and therefore they don't perceive a need for high refines, as they're perfectly satisfied with getting into those WC nirvana squads.

And also, considering that an Archer can get 5 aps really easily (Rank 8, TT99 Wrist + Boots, Cape and Deicide for a total of ~200m), the argument that 5 aps means you're rich is bollocks.

Hexalot - Dreamweaver · September 2011

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

a lot of people have been made to believe that aps = dps and therefore they don't perceive a need for high refines, as they're perfectly satisfied with getting into those WC nirvana squads.
.

This part is unfortunately true. The bad thing about a lot of random WC Nirvy squads is that many of them basically consist of the low aps/poorly refined players who can't get into the elite groups (who all have their friend list of 5 aps +10s and stick to squading within it). And of course this typically means slow *** runs that take 25 minutes or more sometimes.

So when I saw a WC squad asking for 4-5 aps and "link weapon please" I jumped on it... since asking for weapon link usually implies that the squad leader is obviously concerned about dph and not just aps. But lo and behold... after linking weapon (+12 G13) and getting accepted... the squad leader turns out to be a 5 aps BM with Striking Dragons refined +2 b:cry

I felt like shouting at her... "you have the gall to ask me to link my weapon and yet you are carrying around that trash ?" b:angry

"You should kick yourself out of the squad on principle !"

Empu - Sanctuary · September 2011

@ Mitachi : I see you didn't read my post carefully, so I'll be kind and be very explicit. When I say my cleric now get's aggro of a herc on lvl? bosses, this doesn't mean I tank vana. This is an easy damage comparison. Herc damage is absolutely stable, never changed, and always hits the exact same figures without crits or w/e. "In the old days", herc was the ultimate DD in TT, and outdamaged any player. Now, even a cleric (which isn't really a DD specialised class) with pretty much average gear (my cleric is an alt, so doesn't have great refines or anything), get's aggro off them. Since herc damage didn't change at all, this shows how much player damage has increased, or do you think it's something else?

I see a lot of QQ that an aps nerf would, if ever implemented, bring back 2h+ TT. Get realistic, an average player today does at least 2 to 3 times more dps then the average player back then. Those 2h+ TT will never get back, unless some nostagics put on their old gear and go TT without their jones blessings.

I also see a lot of players totally forget that, along with the aps rise to domination, there were changes like : Orb sales, rep sales, tokens making TT99 accessable, jones blessings, very high grade shards, junk prices on flawless shards, wb being massively slaughtered and thus dropping even more high lvl shards, a mirage overflow with the tw change and now fairy boxes, and way more. These are partially the changes that actually made 5 aps possible. The example of some 5 aps soloing stuff like TT, made them some kind of gods. However, ppl have forgotten it was great gear with uber-refines at 5 aps that allowed them to do that. Now, only the "5 aps" part sticked in everyones mind. Just yesterday I was in some vana with cleric. There were 2 bms and an archer 5 aps, a sin with 3.33 I think, and a veno. Seems like a dreamsquad no? Well, it was really long, and my sin could have soloed it in half the time. How could 1 sin at 2.86 aps do more damage then 4 with higher aps? That's right, refines with high lvl shards on top-grade weapon.

You say, "a 5 aps has the money to get to +5". Plz, come educate our server then. You may take wizzies and psys, so do I, so do many others, so do many factions. But in reality, a wizzie can barely get a vana squad, even with great gear. You say sins do 85k per sec on a hf, I say they don't and that you are mistaking dps calculations and actual damage after all reductions. With the current math craze, casters are behind also, cause their damage isn't a simple calculation of "average damage x frequency" like with auto-attacks on a melee. 85k a sec on hf, means 8.5k normal sparked hits no hf. Not many 5 aps reach that, I'd say NO 5 aps reaches that, cause that corresponds to r9 daggers +10. I do 8-10k sparked hits with no debuffs/amps, and that is +12 r9 with 80+ att lvl, so plz come again. You say things are split equally. But I think it's horribly unfair that some classes can barely enter any instance just on their class. Even lvl80s fcc won't take casters, cause they want "aps". That is how ridiculous it became. And yes I tested with a wizzie friend. He applying before me, and get "full sorry", and me entering np.

I see a lot of bms complain they will be left behind. Well, another news-flash, any good vana squad aiming for speed takes a bm only for hf. Without hf (and maybe buff/gs), any equally geared sin would get his place. An aps nerf would only make hf more wanted, to the point they might even want 2 bms to have hf during total spark duration.

It seems there is finally coming some rebalancing. And even though it will mean I won't be able to solo 3-3 anymore, I'm more then happy if they do. I think the general state of the game is more important then an individual's wallet, even if that's my wallet. The soloing makes that everyone only buys their lvls (fcc soloing), buys their gear (TT soloing), then get's to 100 and complains "money is so hard to get" (indeed, it's the ppl soloing that make money) or "their is no endgame content" (ofc, that is all soloed, and vana is the only thing left).

Agree or not, but that's my vision of the game atm and the possible fix. I'm in favor of any fix that would reduce the gap between classes use pve wise. I don't agree that 2h tw a week makes up for being considered useless pve wise (besides, not everyone tw).

Eoria - Harshlands · September 2011

wtf is with you Sanctuary people calling it "Vana"?

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 · September 2011

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

wtf is with you Sanctuary people calling it "Vana"?

Be glad you aren't on this server lol... I hate that too.

Sir_Puma - Raging Tide · September 2011

Susamajii - Lost City wrote: »

If only channeling wasn't capped at 30%.

Which always made me wonder why they capped channeling so low but not APS.

If it's capped at -30%, why do seekers have a -85% channeling move ?

Empu - Sanctuary · September 2011

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

wtf is with you Sanctuary people calling it "Vana"?

Lol, who cares. Why not complain about Lost City still talking about HH and GV while you're at it.

tatakairyu · September 2011

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

Lol, who cares. Why not complain about Lost City still talking about HH and GV while you're at it.

I hate them both but yes, way back when they called it hh it annoyed me to no end. I've gotten used to it over the years lmao.

Mitachi - Dreamweaver · September 2011

@Empu i forgot what we were arguing about, i do see your point yes. Well let me use my server as an example. The majority of the people on my server that go and farm nirvy/tt are people with 4-5aps +12/10 therefore ill still say the TT market will crash, the canny market will take a while to crash thats the only negative that i see coming from nerfing 5aps. TT3-3 is like my favorite instanceb:dirty i adore it. But i do want a bm in the squad. I do want a sin in the squad. Ill HATE tt if it takes 2hours+ like it use to. However before the aps craze i remember drums going for 400k it was pretty damn nice. When they made TT "more challenging" that was the time when casters were completely refused from tt3-x Because the majority of them can NOT Survive the aoe, etc. So thats just the point i was tryna make.

Decus - Dreamweaver · September 2011

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

wtf is with you Sanctuary people calling it "Vana"?

Heh I am glad that never caught on in DW. I don't really get cutesy names... b:sweat

Empu - Sanctuary · September 2011

Decus - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Heh I am glad that never caught on in DW. I don't really get cutesy names... b:sweat

b:laugh Want hear 1 that is even worse? My regular pm, especially on 2x :

PUUPUUUU COME NANA!!!

Got to love Sanc

Some even still call me Wawa (from my barb), which has an even better effect b:cute

WAWA COME NANA!!!

Okeano - Harshlands · September 2011

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

wtf is with you Sanctuary people calling it "Vana"?

+1. Dumb name.

Desdi - Sanctuary · September 2011

Done a few, caster Nirvana is really fun and indeed quite more challenging than the regular Nirvana. I only wish they had random bosses like in the normal version.

And...what's wrong with people calling Nirvana as "vana" ? O.o I mean, TT sounds just as silly to me. I don't care what people call things, I'm alright as long as we know what instance we're talking about.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 · September 2011

I don't think caster nirv is harder than normal nirv.
Normal nirv has exploding circles, bosses you have to run away from, adds you have to kill all at once, mobs you have to avoid killing, and don't forget the chest craziness on the last boss.

Caster nirv has nothing thats comparable. All the ones I've done the only thing I've had to do is spam metal attacks. I think there was one boss with adds that do pdef debuff.

Hexalot - Dreamweaver · September 2011

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

Done a few, caster Nirvana is really fun and indeed quite more challenging than the regular Nirvana. I only wish they had random bosses like in the normal version.

To say Caster Nirvana is harder and/or more challenging than the regular version is a bit misleading IMO. I've never done it before but my understanding is that the bosses in there have substantially less HP than the regular version and don't do annoying things like seal players (I could be wrong on this last part).

What makes it seem difficult is the fact that the bosses have an immunity that makes the highest damage dealers in the game basically worthless thus leaving only Casters with their sub par dps to fight through it. But if you were to take away that phys immune buff on bosses and leave everything else exactly the same (magic attacks, etc...), I suspect you would have 5 aps squads flying through Caster Nirvana in like 3 minutes flat.

In a way... Casters finding this difficult just further underscores the huge gap between Caster and Melee when it comes to PVE.

Empu - Sanctuary · September 2011

Hexalot - Dreamweaver wrote: »

To say Caster Nirvana is harder and/or more challenging than the regular version is a bit misleading IMO. I've never done it before but my understanding is that the bosses in there have substantially less HP than the regular version and don't do annoying things like seal players (I could be wrong on this last part).

What makes it seem difficult is the fact that the bosses have an immunity that makes the highest damage dealers in the game basically worthless thus leaving only Casters with their sub par dps to fight through it. But if you were to take away that phys immune buff on bosses and leave everything else exactly the same (magic attacks, etc...), I suspect you would have 5 aps squads flying through Caster Nirvana in like 3 minutes flat.

In a way... Casters finding this difficult just further underscores the huge gap between Caster and Melee when it comes to PVE.

Besides the appearance, bosses have nothing to do with regular nirvana lol. Ofc, no melee user will be bothered by increase channeling debuffs. Why do you actually want to show melee superiority in a caster instance?

I think it's just a matter of time, to get to know the instance and the bosses tricks, before casters will start to kill bosses within 20 sec. From my judgement, a squad with r9 and/or massive -channel, togather with genies to up their damage like many sins/bms have for normal nirvana, it will be possible.

I found it more challenging and fun, but can be the effect of the instance being new.

Arjunro - Heavens Tear · September 2011

Ceiba - Sanctuary wrote: »

b:thanks Made several millions from the 2-3 runs I can make from each 100+ alt per day since it was implemented (from 500k up to 1m per run), also is extremely fun unlike the spark-> autoattack->spark->boss dead in 15 seconds usual vana.

I'm no longer playing my sin since caster vana because, even if slower,is wayyyyy more fun, I' like also that every caster of any build is welcome and is not the usual 4aps+-or-no-vana-for-you elitist/racist/classist squad.

Even read that a that a nerf is coming for 5 aps, I dont know if you guys got a new CEO that actually cares about this game or something, but I'm glad that these awaited changes are coming finally.

I so want to lvl my wiz for it b:pleased

Lord_Mot - Harshlands · September 2011

Hexalot - Dreamweaver wrote: »

To say Caster Nirvana is harder and/or more challenging than the regular version is a bit misleading IMO. I've never done it before but my understanding is that the bosses in there have substantially less HP than the regular version and don't do annoying things like seal players (I could be wrong on this last part).

What makes it seem difficult is the fact that the bosses have an immunity that makes the highest damage dealers in the game basically worthless thus leaving only Casters with their sub par dps to fight through it. But if you were to take away that phys immune buff on bosses and leave everything else exactly the same (magic attacks, etc...), I suspect you would have 5 aps squads flying through Caster Nirvana in like 3 minutes flat.

In a way... Casters finding this difficult just further underscores the huge gap between Caster and Melee when it comes to PVE.

I read this, lol'd, thought about it some more... and lol'd again. I believe you are missing the whole point of Caster Nirvana. We poor "sub par dps" casters needed a special instance just for us cause we are so fail that we couldn't compete with you godly aps'ers. And you know what, it's the most FUN I've had in the GAME in a long time. You remember FUN, don't you? It's what you're supposed to have when you play a GAME. So many people view PWI almost as a business. They take it WAY to seriously. I get enough of chasing the elusive dollar in the real world, I don't need to come home, kick back, relax, and chase the elusive coin for recreation.

Hexalot - Dreamweaver · September 2011

Lord_Mot - Harshlands wrote: »

I read this, lol'd, thought about it some more... and lol'd again. I believe you are missing the whole point of Caster Nirvana. We poor "sub par dps" casters needed a special instance just for us cause we are so fail that we couldn't compete with you godly aps'ers. And you know what, it's the most FUN I've had in the GAME in a long time. You remember FUN, don't you? It's what you're supposed to have when you play a GAME. So many people view PWI almost as a business. They take it WAY to seriously. I get enough of chasing the elusive dollar in the real world, I don't need to come home, kick back, relax, and chase the elusive coin for recreation.

My turn to LOL... b:laugh

No need to get your knickers in a bunch since I did not dispute that the Caster Nirvana was "more fun". I was simply responding to the assertion that the Caster Nirvana was the more challenging of the two versions. And I gave my reasons why.

And yes Casters are "sub par" dps DDers compared to the interval gear crowd.

On the other hand they have far superior damage per hit.

Lord_Mot - Harshlands · September 2011

My apologies, I guess I did come across a bit defensive. I can't really argue any of your points. I'll blame sleep deprivation. It seems I was up till 2 am playing some game on the computer (yes, addicted) and had to get up at 6 o'clock, lol.

Caster Vana is Amazing thanks pwe

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