Are Hooks really that great?

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary
Sarrafeline - Sanctuary Posts: 4,661 Arc User
edited September 2011 in Assassin
>_> Yes. 'That thread' again.

I'm tired of seeing sins in the 90's using Hooks. They have -int.

Does it REALLY make that much difference being 1.54 APS vs 1.43? Or 1.82 vs 1.67?

Is it really that hard to upgrade to TT90 daggers at 90?

Soul of the Sea, +3, one socket, will out DPS a Hook and Thorn, +4, two socket. How do I know? Because I have a 2 socket +3 Hook and Thorn, and a 1 socket, unrefined Soul of the Sea. At 1.67, Soul of the Sea hits harder and the Proc is icing on the cake. Hooks? They hit for less.

Let's go on.

If I were to Demon Spark (I'm not demon, I'm sage, but that's besides the point; I'll be using my genie's Relentless Courage skill for this part) using Hooks, I go to 2.22 APS. Fantastic. Now, if I were to Demon Spark with Soul of the Sea... Well... WTF? I go to 2.22 APS.

Suddenly, I've got two daggers, one with higher base damage, a proc that will make ALL melees in squad do more DPS, AND it refines better, and a mediocre dagger with ONE redeeming feature (-int) that is NEGATED at certain points. If I were 2.0 base with the Hook, and 2.5 Demon Sparked (or with genie in this case), and my TT90 dagger was still 2.22 (which would really be the case), then it would be worth it to upgrade.

Here's another little case in point.

Unsparked, just Autoattacking, I will pull aggro off a Demon Sin that's Demon Sparking like a madman with Hooks, and they had a tome, so they WERE 2.5 sparked. When I spark using the TT90 daggers (I have Backbiter now, too), I will pull aggro off just about everything, and I'm a ****ing Sage.

Stop thinking your Hooks are so awesome, and start getting something better. >_>

And before anyone assumes I'm pissed because I got ripped off for my Hooks, I didn't, I got mine a very long time ago for 1.2 mil (two socket, Perfect Garnets, +3).

(Also, with a 2 socket +7 Soul of the Sea with Perfect Garnets, I can pull aggro off a 4.0 Demon Sparked GV level 99 Archer).
101 Sage Sin*/Archer
100 Demon BM*/Barb
96 Demon Cleric/Sage Seeker
95 Demon Wiz/
94 Sage Veno
85 Psy/80 Mystic
And a handful of other alts, all 79 and under.
*Pre RB level
Post edited by Sarrafeline - Sanctuary on
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Comments

  • Empu - Sanctuary
    Empu - Sanctuary Posts: 1,154 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    You can not compare that easily.

    First of all, since it's about -int, the rest of armor, being sage/demon, refines (since it's different grade weapons), and even your genie would come into account. Since that's not the same for everyone, you can't say this or that is better.

    Second, define "best" or even "better". That is a personal judgement that factors in multiple aspects which you can't just put in some algorithme. For instance, you say Soul of the Sea's pierce proc is a good thing. I think it's a horrible add, cause in my experience, it overwrites way better phys debuffs from cleric/barb/veno/pet.

    Third, atm your gear choice is mostly depending on what OTHERS consider the best gear. Best example is that you're standardly asked for your aps for about anything. Nobody cares which weapon would be the best weapon for a sin to have in terms of dps and aoe skill damage, they care about what is considered the best choice. Looking pro has become more important then being pro.

    Last, there is the financial judgement of everyone. Rather put 2nd socket in TT80 and refine it to +5 then keep till lvl100, or get a TT90 inbetween? From what I see, most consider "the single target dps of hook & thorn and TT90 is not large, dph is not really my concern since I'm hired to poke bosses and spark only, and lvling 90 to 100 is fast anyway. I'll stick to H&T".

    Btw, this is a reply from a sage sin who hates the whole aps-mania and who never used H&T because I didn't like them myself. Yes, the whole "ZOMG! IT HAS -INT!!!!!" is getting on my nerves too, but let's face it : If you're not uber-epic with great gear, you are forced to go "aps" if you actually want to get invited for about anything.
  • Evict - Heavens Tear
    Evict - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,301 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    +12 Hook & Thorns are dangerous.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dysk is my tasty chimichanga. <3
  • Typhyse - Sanctuary
    Typhyse - Sanctuary Posts: 3,469 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Soul of the Sea aren't made from Hooks.
    /endthread
    Demon_Troll: "takes on the appearance of an innocent archer but turns into a mindless idiot once you hear him speak"
    ~Spazz~
  • Sarrafeline - Sanctuary
    Sarrafeline - Sanctuary Posts: 4,661 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »
    You can not compare that easily.

    First of all, since it's about -int, the rest of armor, being sage/demon, refines (since it's different grade weapons), and even your genie would come into account. Since that's not the same for everyone, you can't say this or that is better.

    Second, define "best" or even "better". That is a personal judgement that factors in multiple aspects which you can't just put in some algorithme. For instance, you say Soul of the Sea's pierce proc is a good thing. I think it's a horrible add, cause in my experience, it overwrites way better phys debuffs from cleric/barb/veno/pet.

    Third, atm your gear choice is mostly depending on what OTHERS consider the best gear. Best example is that you're standardly asked for your aps for about anything. Nobody cares which weapon would be the best weapon for a sin to have in terms of dps and aoe skill damage, they care about what is considered the best choice. Looking pro has become more important then being pro.

    Last, there is the financial judgement of everyone. Rather put 2nd socket in TT80 and refine it to +5 then keep till lvl100, or get a TT90 inbetween? From what I see, most consider "the single target dps of hook & thorn and TT90 is not large, dph is not really my concern since I'm hired to poke bosses and spark only, and lvling 90 to 100 is fast anyway. I'll stick to H&T".

    Btw, this is a reply from a sage sin who hates the whole aps-mania and who never used H&T because I didn't like them myself. Yes, the whole "ZOMG! IT HAS -INT!!!!!" is getting on my nerves too, but let's face it : If you're not uber-epic with great gear, you are forced to go "aps" if you actually want to get invited for about anything.

    Yeah, at level 80, if you have EVERY -int piece possible, including Hooks, you'd be at 2.0 base. Same at level 90. This includes a 300 million coin tome. Unless you have that tome, you're at the same APS Demon Sparked, and losing DPS. That's my point.

    I wish people would just... Figure this out. >_>

    As for the proc...

    Well, I've never been able to figure out how much it reduces PDef, but it does make a difference. 90% of the time, I do FCC with no Veno or with a Cleric that doesn't use the Armor break skill. Before I had my cape, I'd wait for armor break to Proc, then switch to Hooks, Spark, and Relentless Courage to 2.22. Now that TT90 gets to 2.22 in Relentless Courage, not such a big deal. The lower base damage from them (plus having a +7 set of TT90) makes the Hooks pretty useless.
    Evict - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    +12 Hook & Thorns are dangerous.

    b:sad Why not +10 a Backbiter? or a Barrier Thorn - Gutbreaker? At least with BT - G, you can keep the refine when you make a G13 dagger, and TT90/TT99 refines way the hell better... And if it refines better, and I can only get to 2.22 with Hook, vs 2.22 with TT90/TT99, wtf is the reason to even use Hooks in the first place?
    Typhyse - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Soul of the Sea aren't made from Hooks.
    /endthread

    b:victory Good for you! You're astonishingly amazing! Here's a gold star for 'Most intelligent reply of the week' award! You should write a novel, they'll put it next to **** Cheney's at the book store.
    101 Sage Sin*/Archer
    100 Demon BM*/Barb
    96 Demon Cleric/Sage Seeker
    95 Demon Wiz/
    94 Sage Veno
    85 Psy/80 Mystic
    And a handful of other alts, all 79 and under.
    *Pre RB level
  • Typhyse - Sanctuary
    Typhyse - Sanctuary Posts: 3,469 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Why the sarcasm? The whole point of that is that no one's going to deviate from one TT weapon chain to another just for 9 or 10 levels when Hooks work just fine.
    Here's the platinum "Most Onery and Stupid Broad of the Forums" award b:bye
    Demon_Troll: "takes on the appearance of an innocent archer but turns into a mindless idiot once you hear him speak"
    ~Spazz~
  • ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver
    ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver Posts: 458 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Here's my sin for the most part, shards and refines and certain armor add ons arent the same but they dont affect dps so I didnt waste my time.

    My sin with 2x Immac +4 H&T: 38709 dps
    http://pwcalc.com/b6c7ee4af605d669

    My sin with 2x Immac +4 Soul of the Sea: 35,728 dps
    http://pwcalc.com/3f373acd5b1dff5e

    (That is assuming the pdef proc on Soul adds 2.5% more damage. Idk the proc rate now do I know how much it actually affects the opponents pdef)

    Even if the proc on SoS added 11% more overall damage which there's no ****** way in hell it does H&T still out DD's them rofl. So youre an idot who clearly doesnt research what you say before opening your mouth, you're just a fail troll who thinks aps and -int daggers are overrated yet every time you get proven wrong, plz get off the sin forums you're a disgrace to us all.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Pyrostormz - Raging Tide
    Pyrostormz - Raging Tide Posts: 956 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Here's my sin for the most part, shards and refines and certain armor add ons arent the same but they dont affect dps so I didnt waste my time.

    My sin with 2x Immac +4 H&T: 38709 dps
    http://pwcalc.com/b6c7ee4af605d669

    My sin with 2x Immac +4 Soul of the Sea: 35,728 dps
    http://pwcalc.com/3f373acd5b1dff5e

    (That is assuming the pdef proc on Soul adds 2.5% more damage. Idk the proc rate now do I know how much it actually affects the opponents pdef)

    Even if the proc on SoS added 11% more overall damage which there's no ****** way in hell it does H&T still out DD's them rofl. So youre an idot who clearly doesnt research what you say before opening your mouth, you're just a fail troll who thinks aps and -int daggers are overrated yet every time you get proven wrong, plz get off the sin forums you're a disgrace to us all.


    dude, you put immac citrines in your Soul of the Sea daggers
    try using immac garnets, see if it makes a difference
    ┌─┐
    ┴─┴
    ಠ_ರೃ
  • ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver
    ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver Posts: 458 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Pyrostormz - Raging Tide wrote: »
    dude, you put immac citrines in your Soul of the Sea daggers
    try using immac garnets, see if it makes a difference

    oopsies b:avoid

    Edit: Still only 38k even. Mua ha ha H&T wins again >:3
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • _BlackRose - Raging Tide
    _BlackRose - Raging Tide Posts: 12 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Evict - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    +12 Hook & Thorns are dangerous.

    lol ya i have +7 and they rock *** xD want to get to +10 atlestb:chuckleb:pleased
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]most be smrt to go to school like me x,,x
  • Sarrafeline - Sanctuary
    Sarrafeline - Sanctuary Posts: 4,661 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Typhyse - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Why the sarcasm? The whole point of that is that no one's going to deviate from one TT weapon chain to another just for 9 or 10 levels when Hooks work just fine.
    Here's the platinum "Most Onery and Stupid Broad of the Forums" award b:bye

    Yeah, um, I did.

    I know a lot of people who did.

    I'm going to make the TT99 daggers from Soul of the Sea.

    You should see my Archer. I have freaking a ton of weapons; TT80 sling, TT80 Gold Bow, Windcatcher, Dragonbow, etc., etc.

    I've got a Backbiter I will be using turning into a Barrier Thorn - Gutbreaker and using at 99, and turning into a G13 nirvana weapon at 100.

    I like using my gear, not just looking at it. >_>

    As for sarcasm... Well, I'm tired of stupid.

    And it's 38k vs 38k...

    But what does it add for the entire party?

    Hmm looks like H&T loses. Unless H&T can increase the entire parties damage somehow...

    Someone find how much that armor break actually reduces boss' PDef? I kinda wanna know...
    101 Sage Sin*/Archer
    100 Demon BM*/Barb
    96 Demon Cleric/Sage Seeker
    95 Demon Wiz/
    94 Sage Veno
    85 Psy/80 Mystic
    And a handful of other alts, all 79 and under.
    *Pre RB level
  • ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver
    ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver Posts: 458 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Yeah, um, I did.

    I know a lot of people who did.

    I'm going to make the TT99 daggers from Soul of the Sea.

    You should see my Archer. I have freaking a ton of weapons; TT80 sling, TT80 Gold Bow, Windcatcher, Dragonbow, etc., etc.

    I've got a Backbiter I will be using turning into a Barrier Thorn - Gutbreaker and using at 99, and turning into a G13 nirvana weapon at 100.

    I like using my gear, not just looking at it. >_>

    As for sarcasm... Well, I'm tired of stupid.

    And it's 38k vs 38k...

    But what does it add for the entire party?

    Hmm looks like H&T loses. Unless H&T can increase the entire parties damage somehow...

    Someone find how much that armor break actually reduces boss' PDef? I kinda wanna know...

    Actually it's 38.7 vs 38. Oh and with H&T you can use your genie for tangling mire to increase squad dps instead of waste it on windshield or w/e aps skill you sages use now a days. Oh, and H&T is cheaper than TT90 for obvious reasons.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • OObircheyOo - Lost City
    OObircheyOo - Lost City Posts: 32 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    I dont care what people say, I bought my Soul of sea dags for 2.2mil +3 with a perfect Garnet in, I sold my hooks within using them for about 30 mins. That def break is close to 20% if not 25% and i have tested it alot, i see a massive increase in damage output. Also alot of people question me about having them, until i lend them for testing.

    People are too interval mad and before level 95 if thats what u are counting on then you are fail.

    So at level 91 I am hitting a ***** load more and my hits benefit anyone else almost constantly whilst taking down a boss and for 2.2mil I aint complaining, put your level 80 hooks away until u need to decom them cuz if they less than +6 imma smash u up!
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    H&T's narrowly out DD Soul of the Sea (by a percent or 2) prior to proc, then Soul of Seas out DD H&T when procced. I'm not going to post the math again, if you want to verify use the search button. Variables are attack rate (aps), weapon refine, and time sparked. The more aps a user has other than their weapon, the more H&T is favored, the less and SotS is favored. The higher weapon refine favors SotS. H&T has an advantage in chi gain and can spark sooner, but not a huge advantage because chi skills can always be used. Aside from damage, H&T might increase survivability because you'll have a slightly faster bloodpaint heal coming in.

    Not sure of the Pierce -pdef percent but I think it's 20% which would be about a 12% increase in physical damage while its procced. It has a 30% chance to proc. This means on mobs the daggers can be considered about equal since sometimes it will proc, sometimes it wont, and sometimes it wont proc till the mobs almost dead. On bosses Soul of the Sea has the advantage.


    All in all I'd have to say SotS are better. I also don't think they're worth it because as pointed out, you'd have to hunt them down and they're rare, or make from scratch the tt60, tt70, tt80, and your SotS just to use it for a few levels for a measly little dmg bump, and then try to sell them off since they don't continue on as a souledge for anything useful. Alot of sins have BM alts and can account stash their claws at 95 anyways, so that's what I did until lvl 100, and just used H&Ts as my backup till I got rank 8.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Typhyse - Sanctuary
    Typhyse - Sanctuary Posts: 3,469 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Yeah, um, I did.

    I know a lot of people who did.
    Congrats. You're like 10 out of 10 million.
    I'm not knocking your argument, I'm just saying the general populus will "cba" because of switching from one weapon line to another then back again.
    Demon_Troll: "takes on the appearance of an innocent archer but turns into a mindless idiot once you hear him speak"
    ~Spazz~
  • Okeano - Harshlands
    Okeano - Harshlands Posts: 4,943 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Yeah, at level 80, if you have EVERY -int piece possible, including Hooks, you'd be at 2.0 base. Same at level 90. This includes a 300 million coin tome. Unless you have that tome, you're at the same APS Demon Sparked, and losing DPS. That's my point.

    I wish people would just... Figure this out. >_>

    I wish people actually knows how demon spark works before QQing about other people not knowing ****. With everything available to you pre 99, you'll be at either 2.0 based with H&T or 1.82 with other dags. So you will not spark to the same speed (1.82 to 2.5 and 2.0 to 2.86), hence pre 99, H&T will always win. (This is applying to Demon sparking. If you are sage Sin using Relentless of unknow APS increase and end up the same APS, then well, you picked sage)

    Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Soul of the Sea, +3, one socket, will out DPS a Hook and Thorn, +4, two socket. How do I know? Because I have a 2 socket +3 Hook and Thorn, and a 1 socket, unrefined Soul of the Sea. At 1.67, Soul of the Sea hits harder and the Proc is icing on the cake. Hooks? They hit for less.
    Oh yeah one hit harder than the other so obviously it has better DPS, who cares if the other one hits faster. If you have a Barb or Veno in your squad, your proc is actually hurting your team, ijs.

    Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »
    If I were to Demon Spark (I'm not demon, I'm sage, but that's besides the point; I'll be using my genie's Relentless Courage skill for this part) using Hooks, I go to 2.22 APS. Fantastic. Now, if I were to Demon Spark with Soul of the Sea... Well... WTF? I go to 2.22 APS.

    Suddenly, I've got two daggers, one with higher base damage, a proc that will make ALL melees in squad do more DPS, AND it refines better, and a mediocre dagger with ONE redeeming feature (-int) that is NEGATED at certain points. If I were 2.0 base with the Hook, and 2.5 Demon Sparked (or with genie in this case), and my TT90 dagger was still 2.22 (which would really be the case), then it would be worth it to upgrade.
    Obviously in the occasion of both dags sparking at the same speed, H&T will lose, but that comes later at 99 at 2.0 based and 2.22 based.

    Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Here's another little case in point.

    Unsparked, just Autoattacking, I will pull aggro off a Demon Sin that's Demon Sparking like a madman with Hooks, and they had a tome, so they WERE 2.5 sparked. When I spark using the TT90 daggers (I have Backbiter now, too), I will pull aggro off just about everything, and I'm a ****ing Sage.
    Oh please, unsparked, using a NPC dagger, I was pulling aggro off this other Sin using TT90! **** like this doesn't work as an argument.
    Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »
    (Also, with a 2 socket +7 Soul of the Sea with Perfect Garnets, I can pull aggro off a 4.0 Demon Sparked GV level 99 Archer).
    Cool story bro? I was pulling aggro off all kinds of **** with my Sin too.
    Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Stop thinking your Hooks are so awesome, and start getting something better. >_>
    The math was done ages ago but I guess it needs to be brought up again for special people.

    We'll look first with tome

    SotS DPS = ((8661 + 10806) / 2) * 2.5 * 1.26 = 30660.525
    H&T DPS= ((8056 + 9989) / 2) * 2.86 * 1.26 = 32513.481

    Without tome

    SotS DPS =((8604 + 10735) / 2) * 2.22 * 1.24 = 26618.1996
    H&T DPS =((8003 + 9923) / 2) * 2.5 * 1.24 = 27785.3

    But you know, ofc, don't believe the math, go with your gut.
  • Barunaa - Heavens Tear
    Barunaa - Heavens Tear Posts: 420 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    just go get hitman legends. best daggers u can use period before 100.
  • Okeano - Harshlands
    Okeano - Harshlands Posts: 4,943 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Yes, if you MUST have the best absolute daggers for a current level then go with Hitman. Could also look into Warsoul. H&T is, for all intents and purposes, the most practical one for most people.
  • Sarrafeline - Sanctuary
    Sarrafeline - Sanctuary Posts: 4,661 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Barunaa - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    just go get hitman legends. best daggers u can use period before 100.

    What's current price on Hitman Legend? Still 100 mil?

    I'd rather get the -int tome since I can use it on ~3 characters, instead of spending that coin on something that I can only use for a short amount of time.

    I've got a Backbiter... I'll be going G13 Nirvana.

    I've got a GV for my Archer. If I seriously was crazy about APS, I would simply get a +10 Str tome and use it on my Sin. Why don't I? Because I have Sage Dagger Devotion, and that would be such a waste.
    101 Sage Sin*/Archer
    100 Demon BM*/Barb
    96 Demon Cleric/Sage Seeker
    95 Demon Wiz/
    94 Sage Veno
    85 Psy/80 Mystic
    And a handful of other alts, all 79 and under.
    *Pre RB level
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »
    What's current price on Hitman Legend? Still 100 mil?

    I'd rather get the -int tome since I can use it on ~3 characters, instead of spending that coin on something that I can only use for a short amount of time.

    I've got a Backbiter... I'll be going G13 Nirvana.

    I've got a GV for my Archer. If I seriously was crazy about APS, I would simply get a +10 Str tome and use it on my Sin. Why don't I? Because I have Sage Dagger Devotion, and that would be such a waste.

    Loved this argument. First off, she pointed out she's sage which means she's been arguing a different point than the rest of us for 20 posts because the demon spark benefits higher aps.

    Second she compares getting 100 mil daggers to a 280 mil tome. Then immediately follow its up with "I'll be getting G13" which actually is about the same price as a tome and we have two threads on the first page of the forums showing tome+Rank 8 daggers out DD 1 socket G13s. But she's sage, so after badmouthing the benefits of H&T's interval, she has to go back to the H&T weapon line to get G13s for the interval or be 2.22.

    There is also another thread on the front page of sin forums showing how beneficial the aps are of fists for sage sins. Sage fists sins can actually out dd sage dagger sins but "that'd be a waste" according to her.


    Not sure why I'm posting a response other than to laugh at her troll. It's obvious she either has never read a post in the sin forums or hasn't understood them.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver
    ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver Posts: 458 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Loved this argument. First off, she pointed out she's sage which means she's been arguing a different point than the rest of us for 20 posts because the demon spark benefits higher aps.

    Second she compares getting 100 mil daggers to a 280 mil tome. Then immediately follow its up with "I'll be getting G13" which actually is about the same price as a tome and we have two threads on the first page of the forums showing tome+Rank 8 daggers out DD 1 socket G13s. But she's sage, so after badmouthing the benefits of H&T's interval, she has to go back to the H&T weapon line to get G13s for the interval or be 2.22.

    There is also another thread on the front page of sin forums showing how beneficial the aps are of fists for sage sins. Sage fists sins can actually out dd sage dagger sins but "that'd be a waste" according to her.


    Not sure why I'm posting a response other than to laugh at her troll. It's obvious she either has never read a post in the sin forums or hasn't understood them.

    Ive come to the conclusion she's just trolling. Since she clearly hasn't researched a damn thing about what she's claiming.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Malkomod - Harshlands
    Malkomod - Harshlands Posts: 38 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    There's another reason using H&T, everyone use it. So, the price for that is going down on my server because there's so many sins.
  • Sarrafeline - Sanctuary
    Sarrafeline - Sanctuary Posts: 4,661 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Malkomod - Harshlands wrote: »
    There's another reason using H&T, everyone use it. So, the price for that is going down on my server because there's so many sins.

    Huh...

    1 socket, unsharded, unrefined, straight from the forge Hook = 6 mil on Sanct.

    2 socket, flawless garnet, +2 refine = 8-10 mil on Sanct.

    Want 2 sockets, Perfect Garnets,, +5 refine? 12 mil.

    I can make a Backbiter, just from buying the mats, making TT60, 70, Hooks, and then Backbiter, for less than 12 mil.

    I sold a set of Soul of the Sea +4 with Perfect Garnets (2) for 3.75 mil. I bought them that way for 2 mil.

    I even saw a backbiter for 4 mil on AH... No refine and one socket, but at least it had a perfect shard in it.
    101 Sage Sin*/Archer
    100 Demon BM*/Barb
    96 Demon Cleric/Sage Seeker
    95 Demon Wiz/
    94 Sage Veno
    85 Psy/80 Mystic
    And a handful of other alts, all 79 and under.
    *Pre RB level
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Huh...

    1 socket, unsharded, unrefined, straight from the forge Hook = 6 mil on Sanct.

    2 socket, flawless garnet, +2 refine = 8-10 mil on Sanct.

    Want 2 sockets, Perfect Garnets,, +5 refine? 12 mil.

    Um, no?

    For one, you can farm Hook and Thorn 100% in solomode TTs. For two, I counted the estimate of a forged Hook to be about 4.6m. It's a G10 weapon, so the 2nd socket is at 100 stones, or 1.1m. 2 Flawless Garnets come to 280k and teh +2 refine would be like 250k, for a total of 6.25m.

    Perfect Garnets? Who the hell puts Perfect Garnets in that thing?
    I can make a Backbiter, just from buying the mats, making TT60, 70, Hooks, and then Backbiter, for less than 12 mil.

    I sold a set of Soul of the Sea +4 with Perfect Garnets (2) for 3.75 mil. I bought them that way for 2 mil.

    I even saw a backbiter for 4 mil on AH... No refine and one socket, but at least it had a perfect shard in it.

    Guess why the prices are so low? Because no one uses them.

    And just for the record, here's what I personally looked like on 90 and what I would've had if I had gone your way, plus the obvious numbers:
    Me on 90 with 21,378 sparked DPS
    Backbiter at 20,680 sparked DPS

    Extra cost, less DPS. Soul of the Sea would have 20,518 plus the proc.

    Obviously, for Demons, the difference in favor of Hook and Thorn is even larger.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • TrueHarmony - Archosaur
    TrueHarmony - Archosaur Posts: 332 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    People use hook and thorn because it is easy to farm and completely usable until r8, anyone who thinks you HAVE to use a tt90 dagger or else you'll be useless is just plain stupid. Using tt90 isnt bad by any means, but its not needed either, you can still be effective with tt80
    Yeah my sig doesn't match my name...i would say im being all clever and trying to confuse people...but im really just too lazy to make a new one
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Typhyse - Sanctuary
    Typhyse - Sanctuary Posts: 3,469 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Want 2 sockets, Perfect Garnets,, +5 refine? 12
    Speaking of this, I keep seeing people asking 10+ for +5 2 socket H&T on Sanct. They keep saying "Dude lol look in the AH."
    Anyone know wtf is up with that? Last I recall you'd be lucky to get 7-8mil for +5 2-immac/flawless Hooks.
    Demon_Troll: "takes on the appearance of an innocent archer but turns into a mindless idiot once you hear him speak"
    ~Spazz~
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Perfect Garnets? Who the hell puts Perfect Garnets in that thing?

    Lol, I did? Figured I'd be using it 15-20 levels while farming FCC, may as well.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Mauntille - Heavens Tear
    Mauntille - Heavens Tear Posts: 694 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    TrueHarmony - Archosaur wrote: »
    People use hook and thorn because it is easy to farm and completely usable until r8, anyone who thinks you HAVE to use a tt90 dagger or else you'll be useless is just plain stupid. Using tt90 isnt bad by any means, but its not needed either, you can still be effective with tt80

    This.
    Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »
    1 socket, unsharded, unrefined, straight from the forge Hook = 6 mil on Sanct.

    2 socket, flawless garnet, +2 refine = 8-10 mil on Sanct.

    Want 2 sockets, Perfect Garnets,, +5 refine? 12 mil.

    I can make a Backbiter, just from buying the mats, making TT60, 70, Hooks, and then Backbiter, for less than 12 mil.

    There are 2 things wrong with this comparison.

    First, you are comparing the cost of the H&T daggers themselves, a +5 refine, and 2 perfect garnets to the cost of the SotS daggers without refines or shards. This isn't a fair comparison.

    Secondly, you don't get your H&Ts at level 90, you get them at level 80. Barring Warsoul, H&Ts are the best daggers you can have at level 80. Add in the fact that they are fairly cheap to farm and are otherwise readily available and it's easy to assume that you will have H&Ts in your 80s. So it then becomes a question of upgrading at level 90. As others have shown the math, H&Ts are on par with TT90 daggers. They may be slightly better or slightly worse, depending on what the rest of your character looks like.

    Most people don't see the justification to spend time/money upgrading just to be on par with where they already are.
  • ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver
    ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver Posts: 458 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Mauntille - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Most people don't see the justification to spend time/money upgrading just to be on par with where they already are.

    This, also add in the fact that it isn't even in the same TT line as H&T. You'd have to start from sxcratch at TT6o, time and effort wasted for what? Just about the same dps? Yea, thats totally worth it Sarra....
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Sarrafeline - Sanctuary
    Sarrafeline - Sanctuary Posts: 4,661 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Mauntille - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    This.



    There are 2 things wrong with this comparison.

    First, you are comparing the cost of the H&T daggers themselves, a +5 refine, and 2 perfect garnets to the cost of the SotS daggers without refines or shards. This isn't a fair comparison.

    Secondly, you don't get your H&Ts at level 90, you get them at level 80. Barring Warsoul, H&Ts are the best daggers you can have at level 80. Add in the fact that they are fairly cheap to farm and are otherwise readily available and it's easy to assume that you will have H&Ts in your 80s. So it then becomes a question of upgrading at level 90. As others have shown the math, H&Ts are on par with TT90 daggers. They may be slightly better or slightly worse, depending on what the rest of your character looks like.

    Most people don't see the justification to spend time/money upgrading just to be on par with where they already are.

    Huh...

    The other TT80 daggers might not have -int, but they are way less than half the price of H&T.

    As for readily farmable, that'd debatable. I had to merchant for the mats for the set I used to decomp for Backbiter because even during 2X, there weren't enough mats to go around (faction runs, nobody ran away with mats).

    There's people in my faction who won't get H&T because it's so expensive, and even though we will farm the mats for them, they don't want to bother. They will see a legendary 74 dagger with a HP recovery proc for 800k in AH, and stick with that to 90 or get an FCC Dagger for less than H&T.

    I know someone who solo farmed H&T's, spent ~400k making them, then would sell them for 6-7 mil. And people would buy them. Is it really worth spending that much on something that you aren't gonna use very long? You can get the FCC Daggers for the same coin, and they actually have a proc on them that's useful. I've never had a set, so I can't comment on DPS vs Hooks... But...

    I saw a 101 sin with Hooks and everything else to get to 5.0, and he demon sparked, then I sage spark, and at 1.67 APS, I stole aggro and out DD him on several bosses. It's... Sort of sad. b:surrender

    Feel free to +12 your Hooks, but they still aren't endgame daggers.
    101 Sage Sin*/Archer
    100 Demon BM*/Barb
    96 Demon Cleric/Sage Seeker
    95 Demon Wiz/
    94 Sage Veno
    85 Psy/80 Mystic
    And a handful of other alts, all 79 and under.
    *Pre RB level
  • Maiyr - Lost City
    Maiyr - Lost City Posts: 46 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Huh...

    1 socket, unsharded, unrefined, straight from the forge Hook = 6 mil on Sanct.

    2 socket, flawless garnet, +2 refine = 8-10 mil on Sanct.

    Want 2 sockets, Perfect Garnets,, +5 refine? 12 mil.

    I can make a Backbiter, just from buying the mats, making TT60, 70, Hooks, and then Backbiter, for less than 12 mil.

    I sold a set of Soul of the Sea +4 with Perfect Garnets (2) for 3.75 mil. I bought them that way for 2 mil.

    I even saw a backbiter for 4 mil on AH... No refine and one socket, but at least it had a perfect shard in it.

    Those people selling 6mil clean are ripping people off even if its two sockets. 2 socket flawless +3 can be bought for abt 6mil and i still considered it abit on the high side. The trick is patience, i saw +4 immacs 2sockets going for 6.5 mil once or twice.

    Fresh hook and thorn one socket 3mil
    Fresh hook and thorn two sockets 4mil
    Hook and thorn +3 two flawless two sockets 4.8mil

    etc.... those are base prices to make from scratch on my server unless u farm mats urself then it doesnt apply. Prices will drop even i expect due to 2x.

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