Getting APS is depressing - And Expensive!

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rgog
rgog Posts: 0 Arc User
edited August 2011 in Assassin
I really enjoy playing a SIN as it is the first mellee character I have ever played in a MMORG but I am finding it takes a ton of coin and too much cash to get a high APS - my goal as a demon SIN is 4.0 aps but even getting there is proving expensive as heck! And I am just coming to realize that even with a lionheart set, shadow greaves and lunar cape I won't get there. So it leaves me with needing an -int dagger (I really love my R8 dagger) or a gabillion coin tome.

I currently have R8 chest, ashura's wrist, boots, greaves. I can't think of any lower cost way of getting to 4 aps
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  • Pyrostormz - Raging Tide
    Pyrostormz - Raging Tide Posts: 956 Arc User
    edited August 2011
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    yes, it is expensive

    not much can be done about that
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  • _Skai_ - Raging Tide
    _Skai_ - Raging Tide Posts: 3,407 Arc User
    edited August 2011
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    Welcome to the world of APS-crazy people.

    Where the best DPS is also the most expensive, which is what one would expect.
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  • Empu - Sanctuary
    Empu - Sanctuary Posts: 1,154 Arc User
    edited August 2011
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    To get to 4 aps with r8 daggers, you need all -int items possible. So you're right, there is no "cheaper way".

    The only part you can save some coins on is cape, by getting a tm69 cape via an alt (need an account stash). This would cost you some mirages and is free if you got friends helping you, or else it would be 1mil per run (on sanc that is the price I see on wc).
  • Typhyse - Sanctuary
    Typhyse - Sanctuary Posts: 3,469 Arc User
    edited August 2011
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    You can have 4aps with H&T, but you'd sacrifice 4% crit and nearly half your DPH.
    Although, -int nirvana daggers don't hit much harder than H&T unless you have int/sac or GoF 2nd cast, which will cost you upwards of one bil.
    Demon_Troll: "takes on the appearance of an innocent archer but turns into a mindless idiot once you hear him speak"
    ~Spazz~
  • Lythianaa - Dreamweaver
    Lythianaa - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,307 Arc User
    edited August 2011
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    It's how PWI works now. APS craze makes this game ridiculous for casual players who do not cash shop.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Thank you so much ForsakenX for the sig b:cute
  • Typhyse - Sanctuary
    Typhyse - Sanctuary Posts: 3,469 Arc User
    edited August 2011
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    I really don't see what's wrong with 3.33aps. I have 3.33 with +3 2 perfect garnet r8 daggers, 5.2k HP, and I can tank a clericless nirvana run. I mean seriously, how OP does one really have to be? 5apsers are just fuhcking lazy.
    Demon_Troll: "takes on the appearance of an innocent archer but turns into a mindless idiot once you hear him speak"
    ~Spazz~
  • rgog
    rgog Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2011
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    I think I will have to accept 3.33 as my max unless i hit the jackpot with a pack or make some serious farming coin.
  • Lythianaa - Dreamweaver
    Lythianaa - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,307 Arc User
    edited August 2011
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    typhyse - Sanctuary wrote: »
    5apsers Are Just Fuhcking Lazy.

    Qft >.<
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Thank you so much ForsakenX for the sig b:cute
  • Ashivas - Dreamweaver
    Ashivas - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,293 Arc User
    edited August 2011
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    The tome costs just as much as the nirv daggers btw...
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    Ashura Tyrant you foul mouthed little boy! I must keel yew nao =3
  • Typhyse - Sanctuary
    Typhyse - Sanctuary Posts: 3,469 Arc User
    edited August 2011
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    Ashivas - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    The tome costs just as much as the nirv daggers btw...
    No it doesn't.
    Demon_Troll: "takes on the appearance of an innocent archer but turns into a mindless idiot once you hear him speak"
    ~Spazz~
  • Zanryu - Lothranis
    Zanryu - Lothranis Posts: 1,998 Arc User
    edited August 2011
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    TT99 Daggers = 20m max
    100 Raptures for first cast Nirvana Daggers = 200m

    Total: 220m

    Pan Gu = 250m+
    Love: Up and Down = 400m+

    Also some 5APS users aren't lazy, myself being one of them o.o I was out there farming each day and I worked for my 5APS the hard way, as in being F2P, and am doing the same again. I'll have 2.22 APS base within the next month hopefully. Once I have my four TT99 pieces I'll need to get Deicide and a Lunar Cape which on Lothranis is gonna be a pain since almost nobody has either for sale. Oh well, at least once it's all said and done I'll have 4APS, then I can start working for 5APS and after that work on refines. b:dirty
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  • Ashivas - Dreamweaver
    Ashivas - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,293 Arc User
    edited August 2011
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    Raps are 2.2 on DW so uhh 220 for the raps and 20 for gutbreaker, 240 total. tome is 260 to craft with pages and fragments. close enough to say its the same. Learn market prices please.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Ashura Tyrant you foul mouthed little boy! I must keel yew nao =3
  • Razorburn - Dreamweaver
    Razorburn - Dreamweaver Posts: 188 Arc User
    edited August 2011
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    Dont forget to add in socket stones for the 99 an transferr stones cause we all know the chance at 2 socker is slim to none.
  • Mauntille - Heavens Tear
    Mauntille - Heavens Tear Posts: 694 Arc User
    edited August 2011
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    Razorburn - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Dont forget to add in socket stones for the 99 an transferr stones cause we all know the chance at 2 socker is slim to none.

    Plus gems, plus refines. Since you know those empty unrefined daggers are just so pro...
  • ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver
    ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver Posts: 458 Arc User
    edited August 2011
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    Mauntille - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Plus gems, plus refines. Since you know those empty unrefined daggers are just so pro...

    Those are also out DD'd by +5 R8 with a tome.




    But I bet the nirv squad would pick the g13 user... Silly kids.
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  • Typhyse - Sanctuary
    Typhyse - Sanctuary Posts: 3,469 Arc User
    edited August 2011
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    Raptures cost 2.7mil on my server. That makes g13 290mil with the cost of tt99.
    PanGu can be made for under 200mil.

    Also, if you have H&T and a PanGu, you can save on refining and socketing the vana daggers.

    ...Unless the 1.7mil buying price of raps the other day wasn't an isolated incident and they really have dropped to 2mil.. o.O
    Demon_Troll: "takes on the appearance of an innocent archer but turns into a mindless idiot once you hear him speak"
    ~Spazz~
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited August 2011
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    Typhyse - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Raptures cost 2.7mil on my server. That makes g13 290mil with the cost of tt99.
    PanGu can be made for under 200mil.

    Um, how exactly do you propose one would buy a Pan Gu, Creator for under 200 million when the following conditions are true:

    1. Tokens have a minimum price of 9,999 each
    2. Scripts cost 90,000,000 each
    3. No one sells Tome Fragments for 39,000 each

    If you managed to buy tokens at 9,999 each, which in itself is unlikely, you'd still need to come up with 657 Fragments at a price of about 37,800 each. On the other hand, if you buy the Fragments at the about 140,000 that they seem to be going, you'd need to find yourself with 17,520 tokens at a price less than 6,200 coins each.
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  • Typhyse - Sanctuary
    Typhyse - Sanctuary Posts: 3,469 Arc User
    edited August 2011
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    I did not say you can BUY a PanGu for under 200mil, I said MAKE. I could be remembering it incorrectly, but I recently saw a thread that showed how they can be made for around 200mil, if not lower. As I recall though, you have to farm the tome frags and maybe another mat.
    Demon_Troll: "takes on the appearance of an innocent archer but turns into a mindless idiot once you hear him speak"
    ~Spazz~
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited August 2011
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    Typhyse - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I did not say you can BUY a PanGu for under 200mil, I said MAKE. I could be remembering it incorrectly, but I recently saw a thread that showed how they can be made for around 200mil, if not lower. As I recall though, you have to farm the tome frags and maybe another mat.

    Farming all of the fragments leaves you with a cost of 175,182,480 if you buy tokens at 9,999 each.

    But the problem with that idea is that it hinges on doing multiple full Deltas in a day in a setting where everyone else gives you their fragments for no cost at all.

    And that's basically asking 5 people to give you 18,396,000 each. Or 91,980,000 total.

    Oh and btw, that is only 175,182,480 if you count all farmed items as having a value of 0. Effectively yes, you're paying 175,182,480 coins for your Pan Gu, Creator. But you are still required to come into possession of the full cost of the Tome. So it's not really any different.

    That's like saying that a Barrier Thorn: Nirvana costs 0 because you can farm every single bit of it. Oh and if we take that logic to the extreme end, you end up with the following:
    1. TT99 ornaments cost nothing
    2. TT99 wrists and boots cost nothing
    3. Cape costs nothing
    4. Barrier Thorn: Nirvana costs nothing
    5. Shadow Ashura Greaves cost nothing

    Therefore, 5 aps costs nothing.

    However, obviously that isn't true, as you're required to be in possession of the materials, which have a monetary value. And that means that it's not "free".

    So your argument is kinda full of holes.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • Typhyse - Sanctuary
    Typhyse - Sanctuary Posts: 3,469 Arc User
    edited August 2011
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    It's not my argument. I was simply restating someone else's argument.
    Demon_Troll: "takes on the appearance of an innocent archer but turns into a mindless idiot once you hear him speak"
    ~Spazz~
  • Traz - Dreamweaver
    Traz - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited August 2011
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    Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Farming all of the fragments leaves you with a cost of 175,182,480 if you buy tokens at 9,999 each.

    But the problem with that idea is that it hinges on doing multiple full Deltas in a day in a setting where everyone else gives you their fragments for no cost at all.

    And that's basically asking 5 people to give you 18,396,000 each. Or 91,980,000 total.

    Oh and btw, that is only 175,182,480 if you count all farmed items as having a value of 0. Effectively yes, you're paying 175,182,480 coins for your Pan Gu, Creator. But you are still required to come into possession of the full cost of the Tome. So it's not really any different.

    That's like saying that a Barrier Thorn: Nirvana costs 0 because you can farm every single bit of it. Oh and if we take that logic to the extreme end, you end up with the following:
    1. TT99 ornaments cost nothing
    2. TT99 wrists and boots cost nothing
    3. Cape costs nothing
    4. Barrier Thorn: Nirvana costs nothing
    5. Shadow Ashura Greaves cost nothing

    Therefore, 5 aps costs nothing.

    However, obviously that isn't true, as you're required to be in possession of the materials, which have a monetary value. And that means that it's not "free".

    So your argument is kinda full of holes.

    With spawn point deltas I can do 5 a day so what's the big deal about farming them?
    BladedZero - Sanctuary
    "Also I don't think actually playing through the game helps your skill either."

    -And we wonder why this game has gone to hell b:cute
  • Typhyse - Sanctuary
    Typhyse - Sanctuary Posts: 3,469 Arc User
    edited August 2011
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    I think the thread I saw was your's Traz.
    Demon_Troll: "takes on the appearance of an innocent archer but turns into a mindless idiot once you hear him speak"
    ~Spazz~
  • Lythianaa - Dreamweaver
    Lythianaa - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,307 Arc User
    edited August 2011
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    Even if everything is farmable, and there's no cost to it in coin or real money, you're paying with your own time. That time is valuable and could have been used for something else rather than this stupid game.
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    Thank you so much ForsakenX for the sig b:cute
  • Zanryu - Dreamweaver
    Zanryu - Dreamweaver Posts: 7,261 Arc User
    edited August 2011
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    Ashivas - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Raps are 2.2 on DW so uhh 220 for the raps and 20 for gutbreaker, 240 total. tome is 260 to craft with pages and fragments. close enough to say its the same. Learn market prices please.

    When I left Dreamweaver Raps were going for 2m, and I'm sure if you had the right connections you could still get them for that price. I don't care to log on Dreamweaver just to keep up with the ups and downs of the economy. A 20m difference in price is significant, no matter how you look at it, the daggers are cheaper than the tome and a lot easier to farm. Takes less effort to get a Nirvana squad than it does to get a Delta squad, regardless of APS, at least in my experience anyway.
  • ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver
    ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver Posts: 458 Arc User
    edited August 2011
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    Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    When I left Dreamweaver Raps were going for 2m, and I'm sure if you had the right connections you could still get them for that price. I don't care to log on Dreamweaver just to keep up with the ups and downs of the economy. A 20m difference in price is significant, no matter how you look at it, the daggers are cheaper than the tome and a lot easier to farm. Takes less effort to get a Nirvana squad than it does to get a Delta squad, regardless of APS, at least in my experience anyway.

    Raps have increased and if you can get people to sell to you for les than they could, then grats to you mr hot shot. But for the majority of players they'll be paying full price, and no 20 mil isnt a lot when we're considering the cost is totalling into the hundreds of millions.

    Also since poeple like to call r8 a dead end weapon and not worth +10ing, what is G13? Its more expensive to transfer refines and sockets and gems than to just erase it and start from scratch. So thats kind of a dead end weapon too. Unless you're saying well you have G13 out of the way, so it's only 150 more raps for g15, but then with r8 you can just say you have 200k rep out of the way. 100k more and about 900mil worth of medals and GS tokens and you got r9.

    Sins can never find delta, but then again lets use your argument, if you can assume that people will sell raps for less than market value then you should also assume you have friends who will run deltas with you. Making farming the tome easier. Also note how the tome helps you when you reach true end game weapon, g15/r9. The g13 just sits there. Once you upgrade to g15 youre down to 4aps and have to farm the tome. If you use r8 and buy the tome you already have it. Making the cost of G15 even higher, since r9 with a tome absolutely annihilates g15 with GoF and -int without a tome.
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  • Razorburn - Dreamweaver
    Razorburn - Dreamweaver Posts: 188 Arc User
    edited August 2011
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    Aparently there is a way to do delta without killing any of the mobs, ony the bosses...so sins will soon be welcome in delta and also tome fragments will soon be dropping in price.
    I won't mention or discuss glitch here but just wanted to let you know one does exist.
  • maestro122
    maestro122 Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited August 2011
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    Razorburn - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Aparently there is a way to do delta without killing any of the mobs, ony the bosses...so sins will soon be welcome in delta and also tome fragments will soon be dropping in price.
    I won't mention or discuss glitch here but just wanted to let you know one does exist.

    Agreed. Look out soon for a lot of b!tching and whining on the forums from people who paid 400+ million for their PanGu/Love up & down tomes only to now see them in cat shops selling for 250 mil. b:laugh
  • Zanryu - Dreamweaver
    Zanryu - Dreamweaver Posts: 7,261 Arc User
    edited August 2011
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    ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Raps have increased and if you can get people to sell to you for les than they could, then grats to you mr hot shot. But for the majority of players they'll be paying full price, and no 20 mil isnt a lot when we're considering the cost is totalling into the hundreds of millions.

    Also since poeple like to call r8 a dead end weapon and not worth +10ing, what is G13? Its more expensive to transfer refines and sockets and gems than to just erase it and start from scratch. So thats kind of a dead end weapon too. Unless you're saying well you have G13 out of the way, so it's only 150 more raps for g15, but then with r8 you can just say you have 200k rep out of the way. 100k more and about 900mil worth of medals and GS tokens and you got r9.

    Sins can never find delta, but then again lets use your argument, if you can assume that people will sell raps for less than market value then you should also assume you have friends who will run deltas with you. Making farming the tome easier. Also note how the tome helps you when you reach true end game weapon, g15/r9. The g13 just sits there. Once you upgrade to g15 youre down to 4aps and have to farm the tome. If you use r8 and buy the tome you already have it. Making the cost of G15 even higher, since r9 with a tome absolutely annihilates g15 with GoF and -int without a tome.

    I don't play the server, you can't expect me to know the fluctuation of prices. Even if they have increased to 2.2m you still get more bang for your buck out of the daggers, also, even if you are considering hundreds of millions what kind of person would wanna pay 20m more when they get could similar results for 20m less? If you farm out the money without cash shopping or don't have extra cash to dump then yes, 20m is a significant amount even if you are spending over 200m.

    Um.. what the hell are you on about with the R8? I'm fairly certain we were talking about the Pan Gu tome and G13 Nirvana daggers.

    My argument? I never said everyone could get raps for under market price, I said some people could probably get them under market price from friends or good connections, you can't assume I mean everyone. By the way, if you take time to start a Delta you can find one, I've had multiple Deltas with sins that worked out amazingly. Again, what are you on about with R8/9? We're talking about the cost of the tome compared to the cost of G13 Nirvana daggers.

    G13 Daggers are of a higher priority than the tome and cheaper, if only a tad. If I had bought the tome instead of Nirvana Daggers for my sin I'd be farming less efficiently due to a lack of APS and DPS, unless I refined my R8 daggers to +10 but then I'd have to +10 Nirvana daggers when I eventually got them... which would be a waste of a +10 on my R8s. So... can either get G13 Dags for a little cheaper OR get the tome but have a much lower damage output. Hey, your choice.
  • Ashivas - Dreamweaver
    Ashivas - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,293 Arc User
    edited August 2011
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    Except for the fact r8 with a tome out dds g13 without one. That's why I brought up r8/9 and why its smarter to get a tome and use r8 then use that to farm r9. And skip nirv altogether. Since r9 also out dds g15 without a tome, it also out dds r9 with a tome unless g15 has perfect adds, gof and -int.
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  • Zanryu - Dreamweaver
    Zanryu - Dreamweaver Posts: 7,261 Arc User
    edited August 2011
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    Ashivas - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Except for the fact r8 with a tome out dds g13 without one. That's why I brought up r8/9 and why its smarter to get a tome and use r8 then use that to farm r9. And skip nirv altogether. Since r9 also out dds g15 without a tome, it also out dds r9 with a tome unless g15 has perfect adds, gof and -int.

    R8 4APS = 75728
    G13 5APS = 81010

    I just made two identical builds, the only difference between the two being the tome/daggers. I calculated each one's average DPS before any defenses or reductions are applied (min phys attack + high phys attack/2*APS) Results below.

    R8 +10
    G13+10
    At +10 with Garnet gems in both daggers:

    R8 4APS = 75728
    G13 5APS = 81010
    G13 5APS (1 socket) = 77427.5

    Well darn! It looks like G13 does more damage! Unless I got my math wrong, oh Daddy Decus we need some math checks up in dis thread! b:cute


    Oh, there's also this nifty spreadsheet that proves you wrong even if my math skills have failed me here =O

    http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt319/raindeux/DpsReview.png

    R8 +10 has 152,663 with the tome while G13+10 without a tome does 160,228.

    Forgot to get the pwcalc build used for that but eh.. you get my point.

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