Sin damage issue

RioNHale - Archosaur wrote: »

I thought Psys would beat sins at R9 endgame super refines too... then I saw this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btCHz6BXK2I

Sins still has too much of a massive damage index.
He didnt even need to stealth, and still won significant majority.

Wow, remind me again who's stupid Idea it was to let assassins have zerk?

negativereaction wrote: »

agreed that psychics still take a reasonable understanding of the class to play well, but the same is true of sins against any decent players. a f2p (or near f2p) sin can destroy lots of average players; that much is true. but those average players whining about sins being OP should not be representative of a valid metagame opinion as to whether sins are, in fact, OP. it takes a skilled sin to kill another skilled endgame player. more on this in the rest of my post:

It doesn't take a skilled sin to kill other skilled players. Don't try to delude yourself by claiming so. A skilled sin would be almost unbeatable 1v1, but it takes a borderline **** sin who knows how to occult ice, and knows how to spark, to beat a decently refined player. Especially if that player is a Mage class.

negativereaction wrote: »

any class has the luxury of waiting for you to be vulnerable. how many large-scale pvp hotspot fights are "ruined" by a mage or a psychic dropping an instant-channel aoe? how about WRs running in for a stunlock after they see you burn domain? it's true that stealth makes it slightly more difficult to see it coming, so to speak, but the fact of the matter is that you should always be prepared for attacks at your most vulnerable. if you step out of safe zone at a pk hotspot, assume there's a player waiting at the edge of SZ who's going to pop out at any moment to try for a hiero bypass when you're debuffed or out of genie energy.

Yes, it's true that any Class can attack you when you've engaged another player. And you can agree that stealth by far out-matches that. Fact of the matter is, you can see a BM (use international terms please, you're no longer on the MY server) running towards you. You have prep time. You don't have that with sins.

negativereaction wrote: »

being able to stealth out of a fight is a nice benefit, i agree, but it doesn't make sins OP in the "kill everything" sense; a fight they have to stealth from is a fight effectively lost. it's little different from popping a pk potion long enough to run back to safe zone on any other class. just because they can occasionally elude death doesn't mean they can faceroll on the keyboard and kill anything as you seem to be claiming.

The very fact that they can elude death adds to how they can faceroll. When you finally manage to tank and get the chance to get a shot in, they have deaden nerves on, or tidal protection kicks in. What then? Force stealth of course. Wait for all their cooldowns to finish and try again. If not that, just tele stun, slash slash, occult ice, spark, aps aps aps. Point still stands: sin pk requires minimal to no skill. An "effective loss" just doesn't cut it.

negativereaction wrote: »

that's an excellent way for sins to stalemate or lose against any decent player. at best against a decently refined player who has a clue what they're doing (see above), going the aps route is going to burn a little genie energy while you tank it, forcing them to stealth as soon as their initial stun ends - if, of course, they foolishly "don't do control locks any more" as you claim. at worst, it'll get them killed when their target Badges out of stun and control locks them long enough to knock off deaden nerves and go for a hiero bypass.

The former is the case majority of the time. But on the rare occasion that the sin knows wtf he's doing, even stun locks boil down to aps in the end. Occult > spark > auto attack =/= skill.

NoXide_ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

go do some pvp before commenting again please...

You -insist- to reply in quotes. Not going to even bother addressing your frail attempts at justifying your class.

I PK regularly, and I know what I'm talking about. Go grow a brain, take some debate courses, and learn to read before commenting again please... b:bye

I can attest to the T-Screen. NegativeReaction, you're an idiot. Tell me, how can a +10 1st cast sin kill a full +10 robe class w/ full defense and some JoSD with 2spark aps before they can even REACT. Literally 2 seconds worth of damage? BMs don't give me too much trouble, except for the exceptional ones (Almon, Calvin) because I CAN SEE THEM COMING. I can kite, I can react, I can fortify, I can anticipate when they will stun and when they will attack. Stealth by itself is a HUGE advantage. Add in the HIGHEST DPS in the ENTIRE game (without zerk), a 50% chance to avoid any type of control, deaden nerves, teleport, AND ON TOP OF THAT ZERK?!

You should probably be admitted to a psych ward if you honestly believe sins are not 1500% overpowered. Psychics are too, but they're getting face time after a LOT of people have quit. Besides that, they can be purged, reliably, so really they're as susceptible as anyone else.

HH - Harshlands wrote: »

Psychics are too, but they're getting face time after a LOT of people have quit. Besides that, they can be purged, reliably, so really they're as susceptible as anyone else.

You're kidding, right?

HH - Harshlands wrote: »

Sorry, I couldn't hear you over the 12k Pdef 8k Mdef 17k HP sin. What's that Purge? SAY HELLO TO MY LITTLE TIDAL PROTECTION

o and psychics buffs can be purged... since when new update ? b:chuckle

HH - Harshlands wrote: »

Sorry, I couldn't hear you over the 12k Pdef 8k Mdef 17k HP sin. What's that Purge? SAY HELLO TO MY LITTLE TIDAL PROTECTION

You do know purge gets rid of all buffs so tidal protection will gone if a veno purges a sin, and also Psychic buffs can't be purged....just to let you know... b:sweat

NoXide_ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

o and psychics buffs can be purged... since when new update ? b:chuckle

Psychic buffs are largely irrelevant when you can burst them down with either physical or magical damage. The best (and only way, really) to shard full R9 end game is JoSD, and if a psy is full +11-12 R9 w/ 70+ defense level, he will be REALLY hard to kill due to the imbalance from them not only gaining HP but also soulforce for improving their gear, but that doesn't change the fact that they will go from 10k pdef 16k mdef 14k HP to 4k/12k/10-11khp with 1 purge. This will always work (unless they immune, of course) Sins, that luxury is only a 50% (or 34%...) chance.

SilverCleric - Lost City wrote: »

You do know purge gets rid of all buffs so tidal protection will gone if a veno purges a sin, and also Psychic buffs can't be purged....just to let you know... b:sweat

If a sin has Tidal Protection on and it procs it's 50% while you purge, he will retain ALL of his buffs (EP, BM, WB). But if it DOESN'T proc, he will LOSE all of those buffs EXCEPT Tidal Protection (which is stupid in itself). So you're going to wait 25 or 30 seconds to do it again? Too bad, you're either dead, or he's invisible.

SilverCleric - Lost City wrote: »

Tidal Protection has a 50% chance to avoid any negative status effects..... so it only avoids debuffs like stuns/freezes/amps/etc... purge on the other hand is not a debuff its just a skill that gets rid of all positive buffs like Tidal Protection, BP, all of the cleric buffs, barb buffs, etc... so I have no idea of what you are talking about Tidal Protection avoiding purge... lol

Spoken like someone who has never attempted to purge a sin.
Tidal protection can indeed block purge. Even if the purge is 'successful' most sin buffs are unpurgeable (blood paint is the only exception that comes to mind).

Seriously people, are we still arguing that stealth is OP?
Look, stealth is something I've come to accept. If sins are ever to be nerfed, it wont come in the form of a stealth nerf, that much I'm certain of.

But let's address the other things that truly make sins OP, because getting the first hit isn't it.

Tidal Protection- makes stunning/purging sins so hard it's not even worth trying.
Focused Mind- screws dph classes like wizards. Nothing sucks worse than a BIDS hitting 1.
Deaden Nerves- you finally beat the sin, and he just regains 20% hp. Makes charm bypassing impossible.
Teleports- both are OP tbh. Telestun is **** OP, other one just slightly. They completely destroy any chance for casters to kite, especially since the teleport range is equal or greater than the casters range.
Daggers- they hit hard as ****, not much else to say. Chill of the deep even makes sins a dph class with those OP daggers.

So if the devs would please nerf 1 or 2 of those 5 OP things, PWI would be happy b:pleased

RioNHale - Archosaur wrote: »

well if zerk wasnt bad enough... zerk crits are just overkill, see the 25k at the end?

lol GG to people with the R9 psy is gna pwn sins when +12 r9 plan teehee.

Then again, what other procs could you give them?

Any of the seals/stuns would be overpowering with high APS. Similarly, purge would be horribly overpowering. Then there's what, Frenzied Rage? Not happening, too powerful. Any of the buffs that increase the attack power wouldn't work, neither would the seals/stuns or the purge. That leaves you with... on wait, there's none. Well, except the procs that don't have advanced versions, like Holy or Faith.

Then again, Faith, being a +50% to equipment value of defenses, would kinda make Assassins super-tanks in PvE with high APS. Holy, on the other hand, being a purify, would make them immune to some of the more dangerous bosses in the game.

I am facerolling my keyboard in approval of this thread !

RioNHale - Archosaur wrote: »

Er no proc for sins, they already have like godamn 70% crit rates, its unnecessary to give them quadruple damage with a weapon that hits 4 attacks per second, or any proc, they have so many self buffs that cant be purged giving them more is a joke.

^ THISx infinity

I think being able to increase critical damage with buffs, evasion, accuracy, chi, and critical hit rate more than any other class will ever be able to breath word of is enough.

Hell their skill adds are crazy enough as is, they don't even need demon/sage adds.

RioNHale - Archosaur wrote: »

Er no proc for sins, they already have like godamn 70% crit rates, its unnecessary to give them quadruple damage with a weapon that hits 4 attacks per second, or any proc, they have so many self buffs that cant be purged giving them more is a joke.

With demon wolf emblem on it's above quadruple damage, nearly quintuple sitting at 4.8x damage. Scary stuff.