hp or p.def

Siumiki - Dreamweaver
Siumiki - Dreamweaver Posts: 24 Arc User
edited August 2011 in Cleric
I cant decide if i should put hp or p.def shards in tt80 arcane gold gears.
So far i have had 3* +p.def gears, but now all bhs r gonna be wined and i wont get heal agro there, so im not sure if i should put p.def shards in gears.
I never done fc as a cleric so i dunno how often will i get hit there and how much my p.def and hp matters in there, about which i should worry more. Would really appreciate help from higher lvl clerics.
Post edited by Siumiki - Dreamweaver on
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  • Decus - Dreamweaver
    Decus - Dreamweaver Posts: 5,033 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    This is a hotly debated topic here, but I'll just tell you what I do and you can tweak it if you see fit. I based my choices on my experiences in PvP (mostly, never had any issues in PvE), and am biased in that regard.

    I prioritized garnets and put them in all armor, and put citrines in my hat and cape. However, with any type of sharding, you will need to make sure your refines are adequate. Throw some mirages at your armor and put +3's all around (not worth it to refine more than that since tt80 gold refines lamely) to give yourself a decent HP boost, regardless of shard choice.

    Conversely, if you want optimization, click here for an in-depth analysis of all defensive sharding options. (Credit to Asterelle of Sanctuary for the calculator.)
    Proving that not only archers do math since 2009. b:victory
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  • Siumiki - Dreamweaver
    Siumiki - Dreamweaver Posts: 24 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    oh i dont pvp at all, purely pve
    only phys dmg i get is when boss aoe or i get heal agro, now with wined bhs i cant get heal agros, imjust wondering about FC, if i can do it without p.def, becouse now im thinking about ignoring p.def (just leave belt and necklace) till lvl 90
  • Decus - Dreamweaver
    Decus - Dreamweaver Posts: 5,033 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Siumiki - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    oh i dont pvp at all, purely pve
    only phys dmg i get is when boss aoe or i get heal agro, now with wined bhs i cant get heal agros, imjust wondering about FC, if i can do it without p.def, becouse now im thinking about ignoring p.def (just leave belt and necklace) till lvl 90

    Things happen, and you never know when you'll be aggroed, regardless of wine in BHs. As far as FC is concerned, I don't think you'll have a problem (unless someone pulls badly, but that's what genies are for) with hp shards only. You do have pdef orns, so that's a good step in the right direction. At 90+, things do change, so you may want to reconsider your sharding then. I have known many HP-sharded clerics that changed at 9x to pdef and they have all spoken of night/day changes in gameplay. I wouldn't know as I always kept the same sharding. Anyway, I hope I have answered your query (from my perspective, anyway, others are better, I'm sure) :3

    Good luck b:victory
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  • Allynna_ - Dreamweaver
    Allynna_ - Dreamweaver Posts: 254 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    It really depends on how much Pdef you already have. If you worried about Phys attacks, I'd look at your unbuffed Pdef % (hover the mouse over it to see the actual %).

    IMO you want more than 20% un-buffed. The difference between 16 Garnets and 16 Citrines may very well be 640 HP vs over 20% more Pdef buffed. Doubling your effect Pdef will get you a lot more survivability than 640.

    That said, unless your really paranoid about Phys attacks, don't go (much) over 50% Pdef shards.

    Also, in FC throwing up Plume Shell and eating an MP Food before you BB helps a lot for pulls.
  • DuckTapez - Archosaur
    DuckTapez - Archosaur Posts: 855 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    like what's already been stated multiple times by the posts above this one, it's a really controversial topic and there is no "right" way to shard

    i guess one main deciding factor is your build...are you a full mag or do you have part vit? vit clerics generally lean more towards garnets while pures generally get more cits because...well, hp can work for magic attacks too

    however, most would agree that you need a balance of both works best, try sharding half and half with your TT70 or TT80 armor to experiment, and adjust accordingly when you get to endgame based on your play style and which you feel like you need more of, hp or phys def

    keep in mind that refines on armor, helmet, and cape all give hp but only refines on phys ornaments give phys def (and phys attack rings too...i don't think any cleric is dumb enough to have those)

    and by all means, don't shard all immac garnets "just for the cool firey effect" D: i see way too many clerics (or robe armor in general) doing that...ofc if you feel like it's necessary go ahead, but glow isnt a deciding factor lol
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  • Deceptistar - Sanctuary
    Deceptistar - Sanctuary Posts: 10,454 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    can u use the search button?

    this is like the one most topic that is repeated over and over and over
    youll find a load of info in the past threads, and i mean a load. The debates there were much more active than it is now and many pple put some very good logic into it than i see it now.

    most clerics i know go pdef all the way and get hp through refines

    most nub clerics i know who level too fast, focus alot on hp and wonder why the hell they die...and decide to shard more HP and -channeling%
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  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    I shard garnets mostly. That way when I see my low hp and go "****, I'm gonna die!" I run and actually refine my armor till I'm happier with my hp. Much harder to pick up more pdef from ornament refines.
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  • negativereaction
    negativereaction Posts: 238 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    you want a balance of the two, but typically you can achieve that with mostly garnet shards and minor refines for the hp.
  • ILubby - Raging Tide
    ILubby - Raging Tide Posts: 287 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Just mix them >_> it's good to have both.
  • violetvalor
    violetvalor Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    It is not always the case that mixing gives the best result. I made a quick spreadsheet for my plan for 100 for my cleric. Here it is:

    The sheet:
    https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjWJBqePFkradHdhMjJ3OWFsWGV4QVdIR0NvWVVwZ0E&hl=en_US

    I got the stats from my character plan:
    http://pwcalc.com/c458b9fa524deecb (no sharding)

    Note that it shows that all hp shards gives the greatest effective health. I think the reason that pdef does not play such a role is because while EHP increases linearly with both pdef and hp, the coefficient on the pdef is much larger than for hp. Based on this, I might change my build a little. For example, exchange TT90 gold hat for Warsoul of Heaven.

    Feel free to play with the sheet for your own character. =)
  • Cyb_kairu - Sanctuary
    Cyb_kairu - Sanctuary Posts: 46 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    sooo, this became a heavy debate hp vs pdef, but it's only TT80 so ima make this really really simple for you.

    since TT80 gives decent hp + hp in refines your hp would normally be ok so you'd pdef shard but not so much in this case and here is why.

    TT80 green ammy + TT80 green belt *pdef*, refined to +3's will give you all the pdef you'll ever need pre 90 . . . . EVER. so hp shard 3 minimum in TT80 *you can go 4 immac if you can afford but 3 flawless will do fine non pvp* you'll break 3k pdef np with 80 gold + pdef ammy/belt greens *and on top of that their cheap as hell* and with diminishing returns any higher pdef won't be worth the loss in hp sharding tbh.


    give me a few and i'll edit this post with how i had my cleric at 80 with budget 80 gold

    edit: ok it wasn't over 3k pdef but close enough *add bm buff and it's over 3k*
    the cape was 2 + 50 hp mods on it, had another mod or two but those are the only ones i remember. this gear got me to 90 easily *added in aquadash and fcc rings at 85 but that's not very cheap* the demon hearts rings give more matk then the 80 rings of the naga, loose 2% crit but your mostly pve that won't matter to you.

    http://pwcalc.com/8bcc7f90ea59c809
  • violetvalor
    violetvalor Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    A little more digging shows a fairly simple test to decide if it is more effective to improve hp or pdef, given your current level, hp, and pdef.

    Let L = your level
    Let H = your hp
    Let P = your pdef

    Let T = (40L + P) / H

    If T > 1 then shard hp
    If T < 1 then shard pdef



    Let E be the effective health, then:
    http://mathurl.com/4yggjq7.png

    Define a parameter, T, that compares the effect of changing the hp per hp point changed to the effect of changing the pdef per pdef point changed. Note that if T > 1 then a change in hp has a greater effect on the effective health than a change in pdef, on a point by point basis.
    http://mathurl.com/42d945k.png

    Hence the above test
  • thumbs
    thumbs Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Aren't you all ignoring the pdef multipliers like Vanguard Spirit, Aura of the Golden Bell, and Krav Maga, as well as the +%'s on Nirvana equips? Lower HP / Higher def also affects % HP recovery rate, and charm / apoth cost.
  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    He's also assuming citrine shards gives as much hp as garnet shards gives pdef.

    Still its a good metric to start with though.
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  • Decus - Dreamweaver
    Decus - Dreamweaver Posts: 5,033 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    He's also assuming citrine shards gives as much hp as garnet shards gives pdef.

    That is my big issue with it, but it still makes a neat little diagnostic tool. Was that previously posted somewhere or did you test it out and determine it?

    Forgive me I am far too tired (read: lazy) to search for it. b:chuckle
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  • violetvalor
    violetvalor Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    I remember reading something about ~4000 hp being a cutoff between when to change hp to pdef sharding which seemed to be empirically determined. But that is just a memory from a long time ago. That is the only previous research that comes to mind in terms of guidelines. I made up the T statistic stuff from my own mind though the effective hp that I use came from Paramedic.


    I actually did forget about buffs. * '.' *

    As far as I know, hp recovery rate is based on the amount of vit one has just as mp recovery rate is based on the amount of mag one has. The amount of hp or def does not come into play.

    One more thing I forgot to mention was that I assumed one wore a +5% hp neck. I went ahead and added cleric and bm pdef buffs (level 10) to the sheet as well as just cleric buffs. I also assumed the buffs are applied additively rather than multiplicatively. I did not include Krav Maga since it affects defense levels and I just did not include defense levels yet.

    For the moment, I am ignoring the T statistic that I made up because it does not take into account the different combos of sharding and only says what to do at a given hp/pdef combo if you compare adding the same number of points to hp vs pdef.


    The sheet:
    https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjWJBqePFkradHdhMjJ3OWFsWGV4QVdIR0NvWVVwZ0E&hl=en_US#gid=0

    Important:
    Something I noticed that the sheet consistently suggests that:

    If n is the total number of sockets available then:

    unbuffed:
    Full hp sharding is always the way to go!


    Cleric buffs:
    If n <= 10 then full hp sharding is the way to go still
    If n >= 10 and n is even then the number of hp shards should be n/2 + 5 and the rest should be pdef.
    If n >= 10 and n is odd then the number of hp shards should be (n-1)/2 + 5 and the rest should be pdef.


    Cleric+BM buffs:
    If n is even then the number of hp shards should be n/2 + 1 and the rest should be pdef.
    If n is odd then the number of hp shards should be (n+1)/2 and the rest should be pdef.

    For example:

    n = 20 => 11 hp shards and 9 pdef shards
    n = 19 => 10 hp shards and 9 pdef shards

    So the 50/50 split idea was very close!
  • thumbs
    thumbs Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    violetvalor wrote: »
    As far as I know, hp recovery rate is based on the amount of vit one has just as mp recovery rate is based on the amount of mag one has. The amount of hp or def does not come into play.

    % recovery rate; not recovery rate.
  • violetvalor
    violetvalor Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Rather than play with a spreadsheet, I worked the problem out.
    https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0BzWJBqePFkraYmExYjU0OTgtMmQ0OC00N2EzLWJlNzYtOTM5YzAzMzdjNTQ2&hl=en_US


    I liked how, at the end, the two matched. b:pleased
  • Aranarwa - Heavens Tear
    Aranarwa - Heavens Tear Posts: 83 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Very interesting.....


    Here is a challenge for you b:chuckle:

    Maybe rework the formula to make it more dynamic.

    Start with the base HP / PDef of your char (without any added stats from gear) and take into account the stats, the amount and type of shards and refines you want to use per gear.
    (the more HP bonus stats / refines, the lesser the need to shard with citrines).

    I foresee situations where such a reworked formula will show you that mixing is the best option.


    Or am I completely wrong footed here?
    Beauty is in the eye of the beerholder b:chuckle
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Aranarwa - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Very interesting.....


    Here is a challenge for you b:chuckle:

    Maybe rework the formula to make it more dynamic.

    Start with the base HP / PDef of your char (without any added stats from gear) and take into account the stats, the amount and type of shards and refines you want to use per gear.
    (the more HP bonus stats / refines, the lesser the need to shard with citrines).

    I foresee situations where such a reworked formula will show you that mixing is the best option.


    Or am I completely wrong footed here?

    Better, but there's the occasion where a cleric (usually vit builds), pot, etc can't heal a toon fast or thoroughly enough. Good example is the pure mag wiz stuck with a vit build cleric in RB.
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  • VenusArmani - Dreamweaver
    VenusArmani - Dreamweaver Posts: 6,009 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Oops, thought this was the cleric forum not the archer one....I best be hitting that old dusty trail....b:avoid
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  • Decus - Dreamweaver
    Decus - Dreamweaver Posts: 5,033 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    violetvalor wrote: »
    Rather than play with a spreadsheet, I worked the problem out.
    https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0BzWJBqePFkraYmExYjU0OTgtMmQ0OC00N2EzLWJlNzYtOTM5YzAzMzdjNTQ2&hl=en_US


    I liked how, at the end, the two matched. b:pleased

    Ah what multivariate calculus can do for PWI b:dirty

    Wonderful work, violet b:victory
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  • violetvalor
    violetvalor Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited July 2011
    Decus, Thank you kindly! b:thanks Though I dislike using calculus on an integer domain, but I do not know enough discrete math so I winged it. It was great how I got the agreement with the pattern I saw using the spreadsheet. b:sad b:surrender


    Aranarwa - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Very interesting.....

    Here is a challenge for you b:chuckle:

    Maybe rework the formula to make it more dynamic.

    Start with the base HP / PDef of your char (without any added stats from gear) and take into account the stats, the amount and type of shards and refines you want to use per gear.
    (the more HP bonus stats / refines, the lesser the need to shard with citrines).

    I foresee situations where such a reworked formula will show you that mixing is the best option.


    Or am I completely wrong footed here?

    It already includes refines. That is in the H_o. Buffs/adds from armors are included in the B_H and B_P. See the example B_H I computed in the derivation section. Also the testing section shows that in different situations a different mix is optimal.
  • ChubbyKyros - Lost City
    ChubbyKyros - Lost City Posts: 22 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Nice one Violet!
    I pretty much read all of your spreadsheet.
    There is pretty much easy to understand in some sense.

    Cleric without buff = PURE HP SHARD
    Cleric with buff = 15hp/5pdef
    Cleric+BM buff = 11hp/9Pdef

    But we shouldn't ignore the fact that we do have Barb buff.
    Which would means

    Cleric+BM+Barb Buff = 11+X hp/ 9 -X Pdef

    Which I estimated to be around 2. (Didn't do up formula but proportionally looking at Barb hp buff % to Bm Pdef %. So might not be accurate)
    X>2

    Am I right to derive with the above Formula?
  • Deceptistar - Sanctuary
    Deceptistar - Sanctuary Posts: 10,454 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    remember kids, it may look good on paper but the real deal may be different in action >.>

    prolly better just to go experience stuff and die,
    following too much calculations could possibly blind you to some ingame learned quirks
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  • AriesBreath - Raging Tide
    AriesBreath - Raging Tide Posts: 689 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »
    remember kids, it may look good on paper but the real deal may be different in action >.>

    prolly better just to go experience stuff and die,
    following too much calculations could possibly blind you to some ingame learned quirks

    I outright refuse to spend 100 mil+ per piece on shards to "go experience stuff and die" tyvm. I would prefer to work on math and theory beforehand, for things that don't work in game will probably not work in theory, either.
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  • Deceptistar - Sanctuary
    Deceptistar - Sanctuary Posts: 10,454 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    AriesBreath - Raging Tide wrote: »
    I outright refuse to spend 100 mil+ per piece on shards to "go experience stuff and die" tyvm. I would prefer to work on math and theory beforehand, for things that don't work in game will probably not work in theory, either.
    Im talking about a lvl 80s cleric. (you know, the OP?)

    Not a lv102 like whos already suppose to know whats good to shard by their 'age', ....unless of course they leveled up too fast to personally experience the effects of shards as they level.
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  • AriesBreath - Raging Tide
    AriesBreath - Raging Tide Posts: 689 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Im talking about a lvl 80s cleric. (you know, the OP?)

    Not a lv102 like whos already suppose to know whats good to shard by their 'age', ....unless of course they leveled up too fast to personally experience the effects of shards as they level.

    Supposed*

    And what does level have to do with math? I'm not a power-leveled noob tyvm.

    Yeah and you would feel the effect of having a full +10 set with garnet gems and/or vit stones and/or citrine gems and/or JoSDs by 102, or would do so just to "try it out".

    WTS brain, pm me offers. b:thanks
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  • Deceptistar - Sanctuary
    Deceptistar - Sanctuary Posts: 10,454 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    AriesBreath - Raging Tide wrote: »
    And what does level have to do with math? I'm not a power-leveled noob tyvm.

    WTS brain, pm me offers. b:thanks
    we dont want your brain its kinda crusty.
    Yeah and you would feel the effect of having a full +10 set with garnet gems and/or vit stones and/or citrine gems and/or JoSDs by 102, or would do so just to "try it out".
    lol..........my apologies, i didnt realize you where that new b:chuckle
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  • AriesBreath - Raging Tide
    AriesBreath - Raging Tide Posts: 689 Arc User
    edited August 2011
    Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »
    we dont want your brain its kinda crusty.


    lol..........my apologies, i didnt realize you where that new b:chuckle

    What an awesome comeback. (Sarcasm btw, incase it flies past your head again.)

    Learn to hold up a decent argument before opening with one. Less you want other "crusty brains" to speak circles around you.
    b:bye

    P.S. Where =/= were. Learn to spell thanks.
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