Is opening Nirvana fair?

Larkray - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Aps mind has pretty much brainwashed a majority of casters into thinking they're no good for Nirvana. You can spend hours forming and not get anything. And to RedsRose, As I said... if you WANT to open, that's fine, but there's plenty who WANT to run but cant.

I think you mis-readawhat I was saying. But to each their own.

I would never kick anyone from a squad (unless just....) but, many can run them without getting other's in squad because they can open everything themselves. It is also easier for the spilt, and a better one at that.

Also, it might be more difficult for some to find squads but I mean really....Veno's are golden in Nirvana, so if you are having issues finding a squad then I do not know what to say.

Is this not the same concept as anything else? Selling FCC heads, opening HH/TT's, running TM for other's? Of course some want to run but some will go the easy route whether it be for money or items.

And @ Traz, exactly. For some opening is better then wasting their time running or even trying to find a squad.

Casters can run Nirvana without being a leech. Wanna know how?
Form their own squad.

Complaining that 5 aps'ers won't take them is essentially saying that they'd like to leech off of them. 5 aps is not a requirement for Nirvana, it's a luxury. Why do casters always want to run with 5 aps and not their own kind?

Majority of 5 aps toons are alts made by those with non aps mains who got sick of waiting for other 5 aps people to let them leech. They took the initiative to follow through with the game's aps craze thus they deserve that much of rewarding return. It's true that people think casters are no good for Nirvana. Live with it or make a farming toon like everyone else.

Going against the game's current will land you nowhere. The reason you can't find anybody to run with you is not because you are a caster, it's because nobody wants to run without aps'ers. Not even other casters.

Thank you Traz for backing my point in noone taking a caster.

Nael - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Casters can run Nirvana without being a leech. Wanna know how?
Form their own squad.

Complaining that 5 aps'ers won't take them is essentially saying that they'd like to leech off of them. 5 aps is not a requirement for Nirvana, it's a luxury. Why do casters always want to run with 5 aps and not their own kind?

And as I mentioned, you can spend hours trying, but still have a hard time because of the APS brainwashing.

Edit:

Boogiepanda - Raging Tide wrote: »

Nirvana run = 10-30 minutes. Opening = 2 minutes.

Yes, but how often will you actually open? Once every 10-15 minutes? Kinda painfully obvious there....

I honestly do not think taking a caster is that bad but depending on the caster. I do like venos and I enjoy taking them on nirvy runs because their skills are used to amplify damage. Other classes like wizzies, psy, clerics, and mystics are really not needed (unless the squad in question needs heals, then the mys/ cleric comes into play)

I worked very hard gathering money for my classes through farming. I loved my AA classes a lot and so made a sin because of it. See when I would run nirvana on my cleric I would make about 50-80mil on her but then I would PM my hubby and find out he'd be making 400mil+. People would never take me because the majority of the servers want to do 3 man squad or lower. Even though I absolutly detest my sin (no offense to the sins out there, I just hate classes that do not attacked ranged) Making another char, even though it took me over a year to complete it's gear, has made me tons of coins this x2.

I also have tons of other chars I level to 100 to try to learn the game. I actually enjoy helping people open Nirvanas at 150k ea for the simple fact that if I can do that 99 times it proves to be greater coins then if I were to sell the raps and cannies for the 99 key quest. Opening is not bad and it's what helped me get on my feet to gear my chars and help me to farm what I make now.

Though I do like casters (and I still believe a veno to be good in Nirvana) I have run with many types of squads. My favorite types of squads are Demon HF BM for first class, Sin for 2nd class, and a Sin or Barb for the 3rd class. We can normally take a boss (HFable bosses) in one spark and can almost kill the buff boss before it buffs up (normally has 100k when it buffs and BMs 99 pole + sins lunar bow can easily purge)

I have tried going with magic squads in the past but it does not yeild the same return as that. Runs normally take longer and we have to take more with us in order to get the same effect. There are tons of people who have 5.0 +10 chars and only use them to farm and a lot of them have farmed and worked so hard to get them so they could gear their main. And honestly I take it as kind of an insult when people tell me that I'm rude or inconsiderate for wanting to take a BM or Sin on my Nirvy run instead of a Psy.

If pwi would change things to make casters better farmers then you best believe I will be playing my caster class instead of my sin during x2. But until that day comes I'm stuck on a sin and hating every minute of x2. But not the end of it. The end is kinda nice *goes and takes a nap after a week of no sleep* b:sleep

Boogiepanda - Raging Tide wrote: »

You aren't limited to opening for just one squad.

There might be hundreds of squads spamming for openers on RT (which only reinforces my point of the APS greed in Nirvy) But on my servers it's maybe 3 squad every 10 minutes or so, but you cant be all three squads at the same time can you? So you join one, wait till they get their openers (can be 5-10 minutes itself) then you wait till someone else asks for openers.

B_K - Sanctuary wrote: »

ok, so im bored i have 4 lvl 100 chars that have tons of keys and **** gear so i cant run normal nirvanas. why is it fair that u tell me i cant do anything with them, those keys have to sit and rot, because YOU think its unfair. nice way to be a jerk

Did you even bother to read the thread other than the first page? If you're happy with the meager 150k, then by all means, take it. As I've said over and over again, there are others however who would rather actually USE their keys.

Larkray - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Did you even bother to read the thread other than the first page? If you're happy with the meager 150k, then by all means, take it. As I've said over and over again, there are others however who would rather actually USE their keys.

did u read my post >.> i have 100s of keys that i cant possibly use all up, thus thats free money for me rather than sitting there wasting space

B_K - Sanctuary wrote: »

did u read my post >.> i have 100s of keys that i cant possibly use all up, thus thats free money for me rather than sitting there wasting space

99 key runs ftw?

Also to answer the OP

20 cannys+2 raps for 100 keys is roughly 2 mill per rap and 500k per canny on sanc atm, so 14 mill

14,000,000/100=140k

150-200k is overpaying for the openers if anything

B_K - Sanctuary wrote: »

ok, after 3 99 key runs on this set of 2x, i still have 53 on sin, 62 on veno, 68 on archer, 70 on barb and 30 on second archer.

thats

283 keys i have just lying around i cant do much with. now what do i do with my hundreds of extra keys? god knows i cant do all those runs

Well then you wait until you have 99 on each of them and do those.

Quite frankly, I dgaf what others do with their keys. I sure as hell would rather keep my keys, farm that 150-200k through TT (fairy boxes do have uses ) and save them for when I can get runs, which isn't impossible (interval wives have it pretty easy), but it doesn't happen often.

I have 6 characters i can get keys on
2 sins (one sage, one demon)
1 veno
1 cleric
1 psy
1 bm

there is no way i will EVER use all thier keys, i prefer to run with my bm, as my demon sin is still getting gear atm and sage sin is just for buffing, gear is not the best at all
so I take two characters and open for a 300-400k profit per opening, i can normally when its busy get people back to back with some who pm me when they are done and doing another, since i can give them sage bp and cleric buffs. when i am done i stand outside and wait for the next group while i chat in guild or whispers
easy money in my down time b:victory

Zaibeast - Archosaur wrote: »

Uhhh, it might as well be. Arcane classes CANNOT deal anywhere close to the amount of damage APS DDs can do in a span of 15 seconds of sparking (if the bosses even last that long lmfao). Oh and the new "in" thing now is "Looking for DDs for nirvanas, Whisper me APS and LINK your weapons" b:laugh

FigNewton. R8 psy +10 weapon/gear. He can easily outdamage a 4.0 BM, yet he gets passed over quite often.

And I noticed nobody replied to me role reversal suggestion. What's wrong? Can't give a viable excuse?

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

If nobody wanted a high APS DD I'd simply.. wait for it, waaaaiiiit for iiiiit. You ready Lark? Little longer, almost ready. Keep waiting. Wait for it...

I'd form my own. Freaking. Squad. It's as simple as that. People that form their own squads rarely have trouble finding people that would like to run the same type of instance, high APS or not.

As for the Psy... eh, good for him. What most people don't realize is that DPS =/= APS but that's more their fault for assuming that high APS is automatically the best DPS, granted it's true in most cases, but there are exceptions. I can't seem to remember my Blademaster being out DD's by any R8 though, even at 4APS with +6 claws.

And when they see it's a psychic forming a squad, they laugh and then leave, or just flat out ignore. Forming your own isn't always the quick fix to every problem.

On topic: I don't care what others do with their keys, the reason I won't open for 3-4man squads is: I am an ***. Sure, you worked for all that gear on your farming alt for a reason, more power to you, get it yourself though, I ain't gonna help. You sure as hell won't help me farm my gear. I'll open once, every time I save 99 keys.

Zaibeast - Archosaur wrote: »

Uhhh, it might as well be. Arcane classes CANNOT deal anywhere close to the amount of damage APS DDs can do in a span of 15 seconds of sparking (if the bosses even last that long lmfao). Oh and the new "in" thing now is "Looking for DDs for nirvanas, Whisper me APS and LINK your weapons" b:laugh

"APS" on it's own does not guarantee high damage, just means it's easier to face-roll spark macro with just about anyone with similar gear and have a fast run.

It is entirely possible for arcanes to deal useful damage in Nirvana and TT. It requires people to know their classes and how to work as a squad, however.
World chatting: "Looking for DDs for nirvana, don't need aps" is a sure way to get a psy with 4k hp who uses white voodoo the whole time and hides in a corner pulling the bosses all over the place. After a few experiences like that no one wants to look for random casters. A 5.0 claw sin with 4k hp is better, since at least he will be close to the boss and hitting it most of the time, (between deaths anyway).

With comparably geared sin/claw-users I share aggro fairly equally, put a wiz spamming undine and/or a skilled seeker in squad and I will probably end up tanking most of the time. I know my dps doesn't compare to a 5.0 +10 g13+ dagger sin, and really, I'd rather not go with a whole squad of those anyway, the lack of magical debuffs makes my damage feel that much more useless.
Part of the sin's epic damage at 5aps is their ability to perma-spark, but with my genie I can spark twice back to back (and again with only about 5 sec un-sparked in between), and that's often all it takes with a "rainbow" squad set of debuffs. Then there are the other skills which help support (every caster class has something useful, even if you don't "need" it to complete the run, chances are it will make it easier somehow).

13 minute nirvana run: me (r8 psy, weapon was +5 with immacs at the time), 4aps sage sin (g15 zerk daggers, low refine since they were new), 3.33aps bm (low refined lunar claws), veno (demon, g13 pataka), wiz (demon, tt99 gold sword +10) and a cleric that knew how to use debuffs and help DD while keeping us alive. Only reason I know how long it took was we were trying to do one last run before double drops ended (not this double event, was several months ago) and killed the last boss 1 minute before it switched back.

(duh, 3 man +10 sin/bm only squad can do it faster, but I bet they spend at least 5 minutes average looking for openers.....)

So yeah, you can do it faster and make more money with high aps, great, spend a year (bet it's more now since gold prices have doubled) farming gear for an alt so you can spend a year farming again for your main (then start over when r10 comes out, lol). Better yet (in PWI's eyes) just swipe that visa card for a few hundred bucks and go pwnz some bozzez.

(sorry if I sound a bit angry, it's more sarcasm than real spite b:chuckle)

Back on topic: People's keys are their own to use, of course. I'm glad the farmers have the option to buy openers, PW must have been designed this way, otherwise it would simply require a full squad of 6 to teleport to each room the way it does to enter and summon the first boss.

It may be more profitable to open 99 nirvanas than run one 99 key quest, but I won't do it for this reason: it takes about 5 min to open, average. 5x99=495 minutes. That is over 8 hours opening nirvanas. One nirvana run including 99 key boss takes about half an hour, average. I will take half the money for 1/16th the time any day. If a dollar is worth about 1.4 mil, that's around $6 for over 7.5 hours work (a severe drop off from the rate of $6-7 in about half an hour that 99 key quest works out at).
Opening nirvanas is an easy way to make money while just hanging out, but I know other ways to do that which make just as much (and don't help the profit-minded gamers get more pixel money, which, if you are a caster who like to pk or tw, is likely to be used to kill you all the faster).