Is opening Nirvana fair?

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

I'd like to ask everyone who has experience with Nirvana a question... is using a key to open Nirvana fair? Whichever you think, if you have a good reason for it, post the reason, I'm curious about the opinions our community will have on this subject.

I think opening Nirvana is pretty fair, it allows everyone to make some decent money fairly quickly. You can sit there, do nothing, and make 150k-200k, of course you could always actually run a Nirvana and make 450k or so for your key in the form of an Uncanny Crystal but that takes effort. Instead of taking the time to run Nirvana to make 450k you spend a few minutes to open and make 150k, I think that seems like a pretty fair tradeoff.

Also, what are the main reason you open Nirvana instead of actually running it? If you could please post the reasons you open Nirvana instead of running it.

PooRitan - Sanctuary

maybe i am wrong but perhaps you should re formulate your question.

am i right and you ask if it is fair to use 1 key to open nirvana for other people and charge 150k in return?

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

PooRitan - Sanctuary wrote: »

maybe i am wrong but perhaps you should re formulate your question.

am i right and you ask if it is fair to use 1 key to open nirvana for other people and charge 150k in return?

I'm asking if it's fair to recieve 150k for a key as opposed to getting paid 400k.

Personally I think it's a fair enough tradeoff, since you make 150k for doing virtually nothing whereass to make 400k off the key you have to spend time in an instance which can be rather troublesome for a non APS squad.

Larkray - Dreamweaver

Thats not what I was in WC about, it's more to balancing the fairness between non 5.0 DDs who WANT to go into nirvana but are NEVER taken as anything above an opener.

1 Key can easily net you 1 uncanny(450-500k price) and 400k from a single rapture split, not to mention the shards/stones/mirages that are split as well. A non aps squad takes about 30 minutes to an hour if it's an epic fail group.

One opener will at most pay you 200k, and you'll probably open once every 10-15 minutes. Where is the fairness in that?

They get to keep all that they get (easily 6m+ net worth) where you only get 200k. You WANT to go, you WANT to help, but that aps-er WON'T take you, simply because you're APS reads a number under 4.

The non aps dd's have more power and control over the price than they were allowed to know. They were virtually brainwashed into thinking thats the only way they'll get a squad. A Pm I recieved earlier before this argument sprang up, was "I don't need a cleric's heals, Just want the buff to make it easier." He was asking for a cleric opener, but was adamant about NOT taking a cleric into squad. Show me the fairness in that?

Edit: Before anyone says I'm ******** because I don't get runs, Just know I farmed all my gear from scratch. I've got no problem getting into squads when I try to. This is about the OTHERS. Also, this thread is meant for discussions, so if you want to flame "OMG STOP QQ!", take it elsewhere.

Sirrobert - Dreamweaver

I think it's a nice way for the non apsers to get money out of our keys.

My wizzy can either run with apsers in nirvana (in which case I'm just leeching of them, which I don't like), run a non APS squad (which sucks and takes 30 mins for 800k profit), or open nirvana and get 150k for 2 mins work.

150k for 2 mins work is by far the best money for the time you spent

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Larkray - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Thats not what I was in WC about, it's more to balancing the fairness between non 5.0 DDs who WANT to go into nirvana but are NEVER taken as anything above an opener.

They're not gonna fix 5.0. Period. End of discussion. It just isn't gonna happen. If you're an Arcane and you can't get into Nirvana it's because you only want to join a high APS squad, which just isn't gonna happen. I know casters that are able to Nirvana, sure it's not in a high APS squad, but they still get it done.
1 Key can easily net you 1 uncanny and 400k from a single rapture split, not to mention the shards/stones/mirages that are split as well. A non aps squad takes about 30 minutes to an hour if it's an epic fail group.

I'm fairly certain I made that point in game... and I suppose I'll say the exact same thing again. Yes, a key can net you over 400k if you run the instance, but that takes time. If you just open you get 150-200k for just standing there. When else can you make that much money for simply being somewhere?

One opener will at most pay you 200k. Where is the fairness in that?

You get 200k for just standing around for two minutes? About 1/3 of what most people earn in a Nirvana which takes more than three times the time to complete? Yeah.. unfair.

They get to keep all that they get (easily 6m+ net worth) where you only get 200k. You WANT to go, you WANT to help, but that aps-er WON'T take you, simply because you're APS reads a number under 4.

I've done well over 100 Nirvanas... there's not one single Nirvana where I made 6m in that one run alone. Usually if you're opening Nirvana it's because you'd rather do exactly that.. open, instead doing the instance itself. At least that's how it is in the cases I've seen.

The non aps dd's have more power and control over the price than they were allowed to know. They were virtually brainwashed into thinking thats the only way they'll get a squad. A Pm I recieved earlier before this argument sprang up, was "I don't need a cleric's heals, Just want the buff to make it easier." He was asking for a cleric opener, but was adamant about NOT taking a cleric into squad. Show me the fairness in that?

What is this some kind of conspiracy? You may want more per key but the others are perfectly fine with it. If people weren't fine with it then they'd be higher, since.. you know... they'd charge more. However people only charge 150-200k per key, which means they believe it's a good enough price. So what if someone doesn't want a Cleric? That doesn't mean EVERY squad doesn't want one. I see quite a few Nirvana squads each our looking for a Cleric, even if they're high APS.

Replies in red.

XxZavxX - Raging Tide

This thread is stupid because this is common sense type stuff.

Larkray - Dreamweaver wrote: »

One opener will at most pay you 200k, and you'll probably open once every 10-15 minutes. Where is the fairness in that?.

Ummm HELLOOOOOOO

Earth to Larkray....

You get coins for not doing anything but using a key. THAT IS FAIR. If you want to actually farm nirvana use your keys for that. But to whine about getting money from talking to a npc daily and then using the key to help a team open is completely vapid. No one is forcing anyone to use their keys in this manner.

SashaGray - Heavens Tear

Larkray probably doesnt realize shes a veno, venos are desirable for high APS squads, unless they(the veno or the DDs) are doing something wrong.

(like not learning amp and purge b/c you are a "casting veno" or refusing to put your pet away, because you insist pet is a DD too, or that it has "pro" damage on [?] bosses, or the DDs all suck at math and cant figure out that 40% pdef debuff + 20% (at lvl 10) amp is better than a 6th apser.)

_Nuriko_ - Lost City

In most 5aps squads i go in, a veno or barb is normally welcome. Devour is an excellent debuff to have along with the normal barb buffs. A veno is also welcome due to amp and purge for second boss. I rarely ever bring a cleric to squad because i see no point. I log my cleric alt buff the squad and in we go.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

So far... people seem to have no issue with people using their keys to open. This pleases me.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

This one is pretty simple.

A person asks world chat for someone to open and offers them a payment. That person accepts, gets their payment, offers the service of a key. Services are rendered equally, both sides are happy, this is the epitome of business.

It seems to me those who would be upset by this are not in the equation, and thus their opinion doesn't matter. Sorry. This is the way business works.

Also consider that the person doesn't do a run. They use a key and leave.

Kaste - Sanctuary

I don't see where the problem is. Making 200k just to open it or 400k in a very long (possibly wiping) NV caster-low-dps run is a big difference. I'd rather use all my keys to help open then waste a lot of time to get it done for 2/3 more profit. The people paying you also do not loose any money, as the 400k that would have belonged to you can be shared in the rest of the party.

Tsukyini - Raging Tide

Since keys can't be put into account stash and I can't pass the keys over to my sin, I see this as a perfectly good use of keys for characters that don't stand a snowball's chance in hell of getting into a squad.

Ashivas - Dreamweaver

It's fair. And anyone who cries about "5.0's cant do nirv" is a dumbass. Not once does the Nirvana Palace guard say "Halt! Yee are not 5.0 aps you can not enter! Please go home fail wizzie". I think what they really mean to say is "Stupid 5.0's won't let me in THEIR squads so I can leech", non-5.0's can form their own squad, nothing is stopping them. Imo 5.0's earn the right to go by themself and not take along dead weight. It's a good 500mil just for the gear and 200mil for the weapon, not counting refining and sharding. How do they make that money back? Farming Nirv with 2-3 ppl for 10 days straight.

I open Nirvana for people during 2x when I realize I have more keys than I have time to use them all running nirv. Oh and your math is wrong. In a 6 man squad during 2x you make about a million coins a run.

Chillum - Dreamweaver

You could argue that allowing yourselves to be openers (casters in the main) helps to reinforce the view that being excluded is acceptable.

Having said that, I don't see how this APS centric view for Nirvana can be changed.

I believe I read a thread regarding patches in PW China where physical immune bosses might be introduced to Nirvana. I'm unconvinced that this will make a significant difference do to the multitude of ways APS melee classes can obtain magic damage buffs. e.g. Frostblade from wizards.

nimh88 wrote: »

- Magic class (wiz, psy, veno, cleric, mystic) can challenge brand new phy. immune boss in Nirvana with a special key obtainable daily.

I think i've only done something like 6 Nirvana runs in total since it was introduced. 3 in one day during this 10 day two times drop period.

I dislike the way this is but I see no real way this practice could be altered to become more inclusive to other classes without upsetting the current favoured without making things worse as a whole.

Having said all that, I am a pragmatist and have long since accepted that this is the way of things. If PWE were concerned regarding balance of the game or at least, making it a priority, they would have long since dome something about it.

For the record, i've just done the opening thing the once. In the last few days no less. A quick 150k. So certainly I can see the incentive to be just an opener too. With around 160 keys in my bank at the moment, it's potentially worth 24m @ 150k a pop.

GohRaL - Sanctuary

What's the deal with opening vana ?

Im not really getting the sense of this thread...

Whoever enters vana has to use a key anyway, and resquad is awfully simple.




What am i missing ? b:surrender

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

GohRaL - Sanctuary wrote: »

What's the deal with opening vana ?

Im not really getting the sense of this thread...

Whoever enters vana has to use a key anyway, and resquad is awfully simple.




What am i missing ? b:surrender

I made this thread because a certain veno from my server was raging on world chat about how it was unfair to have non APS build characters open Nirvana instead of actually doing the instance. I wanted to know what others thought on this subject, and it seem that the general opinion is that it's fair since I disagreed with her. So far the thread is... interesting :P

Sirrobert - Dreamweaver

Chillum - Dreamweaver wrote: »

For the record, i've just done the opening thing the once. In the last few days no less. A quick 150k. So certainly I can see the incentive to be just an opener too. With around 160 keys in my bank at the moment, it's potentially worth 24m @ 150k a pop.

I suggest you hike along some friends (aps squad) to do your 99 keys quest. You'll probably never get to use all those keys to open, and the 99 keys quest is a VERY nice way to get fast money (4 raptures and 10 uncannys).

What most squads do is take you along with the run (you need the first 3 bosses of nirvana beffore you can summon the bonus boss). After the run you will take the 4 raptures from the bonus boss, and nothing of the rest of the bosses. Which basicly means they pay you as opener by killing a boss for you (very easy boss, just alot of HP and can't be amped).
At the same time you can make them happy by debuffing the bosses accuracy, which acording to some squads my wizzy has ran with (again, 99 keys quest XD), makes a rather big difference.

ResMePls - Heavens Tear

I am totally confused here. Where does fair and unfair even come into this situation????

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

I haven't seen this happening on my server. It is 'fair' but you're not really doing someone a favor kicking them out of squad for having too low APS. It seems pretty degrading.

Boogiepanda - Raging Tide

When did this turn into a 5aps thread

Sharuum - Lost City

PvE fair lol... PvE is just a way to grind out gear/xp/money. There is no challenge in a 5.0 aps NV squad, so for me I really don't care. If I cared about PvE, I would find a few friends or faction that did as well and do the runs like they were intended (real squads without aps hacks). Yes, APS exists and will go nowhere. Ever since they made frost a grinding instance it seems as if they don't care about PvE anymore.

I like how nobody on this thread has mentioned "APS makes this game boring and I would like a real challenge." Although there have been some mentions along these lines. It's all about farming gear to be "leet" and complaining that you can't join squads that bypass the developer's intent. Yes, PWE hasn't helped out: encouraging this sort of grinding, but still. The APS mentality has taken a potentially fun instance and turned it into an exclusive grinding instance.

Larkray - Dreamweaver

You guys did see the part in my post where I mentioned I have no problem with Nirvana squads correct? And the ones who've said there's no problem, how often do you see someone such as a wiz, or psy who WANT to run, but noone invites them.

Even non aps squads are generally biased, considering only phys DDers viable players for nirvana. As I said this was about them not being able to, and being forced to settle as ONLY an opener if they want keys gone without being a leech. I'm sure every single one of you has in the past turned down someone because they were a caster. THAT is the issue I was "raging about in WC"

Edit: Little role reversal. What if it was the APS that wasn't desired inside Nirvana? You'd be complaining about the unfairness it is that you want to run but noone will invite you.

Also a point I forgot to mention. If you WANT to open because you don't want to run the instance, that's fine. As said there are people who DO want to run it though.

Angel_Spawn - Sanctuary

Also what doesn`t allow only casters to make a squad and run nirvanas and prove that

everything doesn't revolve around aps?

SimplyBrina - Heavens Tear

I don't mind using keys to help open you get some profit. However on the starting are own squad thing it's not always so easy. I used to have people tell me they refused to go with anyone less than 4.0 aps. -shrugs- It's just a lil harder to find squads at times that isn't aps crazy. But I could be wrong and that could just be me. =/

RedsRose - Lost City

If that is how you want to make money, who cares LOL!!

Sorry to say but this thread is kind of O.o to me. Your keys = do what you want with them.

Or be like the majority of us who can 3 man nirvana with each person having to chars to open.

^ Flame on...b:avoid

SimplyBrina - Heavens Tear

To each their own. I get into nirvy's so meh.

Larkray - Dreamweaver

Angel_Spawn - Sanctuary wrote: »

Also what doesn`t allow only casters to make a squad and run nirvanas and prove that

everything doesn't revolve around aps?

Aps mind has pretty much brainwashed a majority of casters into thinking they're no good for Nirvana. You can spend hours forming and not get anything. And to RedsRose, As I said... if you WANT to open, that's fine, but there's plenty who WANT to run but cant.

Traz - Dreamweaver

99 key run = 8m in raps/canny
99 openers = 20m (@200k each)

you're welcome all you openers out there

Larkray - Dreamweaver

Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

99 key run = 8m in raps/canny
99 openers = 20m (@200k each)

you're welcome all you openers out there

1 run during 2x is about average of 6m in drops. Divide that among 6 players, that's 1m per person per run.

99 keys WITHOUT being an opener = 99m. You're TRULY welcome now

Tsukyini - Raging Tide

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

I haven't seen this happening on my server. It is 'fair' but you're not really doing someone a favor kicking them out of squad for having too low APS. It seems pretty degrading.

They aren't being kicked out. They know from the beginning that they aren't going along on the run. There's nothing really degrading about it.