Sage/ Demon

Swannx - Archosaur · June 2011

I went demon for demon spark.

Zvyn - Heavens Tear · June 2011

Swannx - Archosaur wrote: »

I went demon for demon spark.

b:surrender I did it for tempest.

jiq · June 2011

I went Demon for fast rez and mana heal on IH (not useful for me but melees love it).

But I slowly fell in love with most demon skills, I have 12 now and still trying to collect more. b:victory

XSloth - Harshlands · June 2011

Sage IMO but look and compare the skills for yourself

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

I chose demon for a few reasons, but I think clerics have an honest culti choice where both options are valid. Barbs, BMs, Psychics, (archers?) don't have a culti option.

lolwut? for WB & WR both paths are very much valid, play style and all that. Cant say anything about Psys and EA, haven't played t or looked in detail at their skills

Demon vs Sage rez. Demon prevents squad wipes because when your real tank goes down and you have a temporary tank you cant spend 7 seconds not healing your substitute tank just to get your temporary tank back up. Sage rez is more geared at rezzing people
after a squad wipe when the mobs have reset around them, imo.

Also depends on the players setup, a sage cler can still rez someone almost as fast as demon rez with some -chan and magic shell

Dimensional/Elemntal Seals. I attack and heal as a cleric, but rather than attack most the time I debuff for the real DDers. Sage has better seals, almost changed my culti choice.

Hey >.> clers can be real DDers too. But yea, in a typical squad setup I like the sage seals better to help other DDers

Stream of Rejuvination. SoR and IH stack. I hate SoR and 99% of the time would rather cast an IH, but its extremely useful as a buff to increase defense. Sage vanguard does the
same thing but only lasts 10 seconds.

Agreed, Demon Sor is great, though I like that Vanguard is easily spamable between IH.

Purify. Sage. Never had a problem with chi because spamming my tank, attacking, and debuffing builds plenty of it.

no argument

Silent/Chromatic skill. I have issues with the unpredicatability of these skills. "Mob will be paralyzed 'up to' ..." This means it may only last a second. I know the laws of probability mean that increasing the length of the seal possibility increases the probability that they'll be stunned longer, but I'd rather just not be debuffed myself on a level 10 skill. Demon wins for me.

I like to use it tandem with puri, so i like the probability of longer seals

Razor Feathers/Siren's Kiss. Demon, the spammability is nice and Siren's hits hard.

No argument
.

Stuff in red, Basically play style and all that

Furries - Dreamweaver wrote: »

demon is better for the most part. atleast once they get full access to skill.

sage clerics are very nice before 99 though as they can get the def buff early on from sage vanguard and not waiting for demon stream.

sage can also with triple spark for extra defense as every little bit helps.

but overall in the majority of cases demon is better.
and if you dont have much $ for skillbooks demon will shine with the - channeling on spark until u can afford to get the books.

i used to say sage cleric was bad, but as i look more closely they gap isn't as vast as i thought it was. yes demon is still better but sage can still shine is certain situations.

the choice is yours

Debatable that's all I'm gonna say about that

Yamiino - Heavens Tear · June 2011

Went sage, why?

Because cleric is a support class not a DD, for DD i'd roll a BM or something else like a wiz or whatever, a cleric will never reach an end-game geared wizard's attack. Without mentioning mystic lol.

Most demons go that way because of their beloved "red spark", they need that spark in order to get -% channeling, when sage can get it by simply casting magic shell, lasts 10 secs, yes but you can get it whenever the hell you want it.

The difference of attack is that Demon gets the attack buff + -% channeling at the same time, but we get attack buff + 25% more metal damage from metal mastery + capability to cast magic shell for 25% -% channeling which takes less than a second to cast, so there you go more attack and some what the same speed at almost the same time.

Some say they go demon because of IH, why would you want a healing when you wanna be DD? I simply don't get it, if someone wanted MP i'd just drop a Sage Spirit's Gift which gives 900 MP over 15 seconds o.O

Some demons also say things related about revive being 50% faster... do you really need to be 50% faster? any magic class should have enough -% channeling to do it, speaking of my self, I cast as fast as demon with my -% basic gear, whithout including magic shell 25% in... o.O so that's not big deal plus you get the extra range ;D which comes REALLY usefull at times.

Also the def buff of 100% additional phy def for 10 seconds is really loved by DDs / tanks ^ -^ so you don't need to heal much~ drop that, 2 IH and you can recover some MP from that, then repeat. lol, simply love it xP

Anyway, my thoughts.

XSloth - Harshlands · June 2011

Yamiino - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Went sage, why?

Because cleric is a support class not a DD, for DD i'd roll a BM or something else like a wiz or whatever, a cleric will never reach an end-game geared wizard's attack.

Clerics can be a DD, a great one at that, yea they cant reach endgame wizzie attack status but we can get pretty close.

Viscosity - Dreamweaver · June 2011

Sage Spirit gift only works on the caster.

Yamiino - Heavens Tear · June 2011

XSloth - Harshlands wrote: »

Clerics can be a DD, a great one at that, yea they cant reach endgame wizzie attack status but we can get pretty close.

Seriously, in TT3-3 I'd rather take a sin, bm, barb, wiz, any other kind of DD than a cleric for DD... so that means: cleric = support class.

Go into TW and see how many players you can kill before a hardcore DD comes against you, they will most likely 3-5 hit you, with 5 aps, that is pretty quick not even IH would save you ^^ - experience from TW ;P and it's worse now with all those R9 armors around the world

If you're lucky, you will be able to kick butt but how much would you need to invest in your char in order to get it? ;P

Viscosity - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Sage Spirit gift only works on the caster.

Lol sorry, didn't read correctly on ecatomb, I didnt get that skill yet ~ x3

AriesBreath - Raging Tide · June 2011

I'm usually biased towards sage (good/heaven) roles in games (fable, for example), so I initially assumed that I would be going sage. I changed my decision upon about a month of hard consideration and research on both paths, when I found out how well demon fit my style of playing.

I will not say that sage clerics suck, because honestly, there isn't a generic "right" path to take. The best path is the one that fits your playing style the most.

Here are some of the skills that had me in a constant dilemma:

Demon Rez vs sage Rez. I had -45% channeling before r9, which, being demon, meant almost 1.5 second rezzes. There is no way a sage cleric can Rez as fast with the same gear, even with sage magic shell. Also the long range for sage is very, very situational. In TW, if you Rez someone from max sage Rez distance, you would have to run up to them to buff them anyway, which defeats the purpose entirely. Faster rezzes, however, are never bad.

Demon IH vs Sage IH. Now a lot of people say they go demon/sage for the appropriate IHs, but I don't see why. Both have minimal improvements in my honest opinion. The mp regen on demon is convenient for physical classes, while the 10% extra heal on sage is convenient for the cleric. In PvE, I never had any trouble keeping my tank at full HP, so sage IH really does no good for me. Demon IH keeps the tank at full mp, which is convenient, but meh. You simply don't use IH in TW on your DDs as HoT in the r8/r9 era of PvP is next to useless. On catabarbs, it might help (minimally, however) to have sage IH.

Demon SoR vs Sage Vanguard Spirit. Both technically have the same add on, and with decent -channeling it isn't hard to cast SoR in time. Both routes get a +p.def add on, so it's really up to you if you want a separate cast for the extra p.def, or if you want it combined with your biggest heal.

Demon Spirit's Gift vs Sage Magic Shell. I think both skills are slightly overrated. Demon Spirit's Gift increases your m.attack by quite a substantial amount, which means better heals, while Sage Magic Shell increases your channeling speed, which means more heals. As most of our heals are already pretty fast to channel, Sage Magic Shell doesn't really shine unless you're casting it purely for SoR, in which case, you hit your heal at the same time (or later) than a demon cleric who started channeling SoR from the start. I want to say quality vs quantity but it wouldn't be entirely accurate. Sage Magic Shell's add on, however, works on your targets (Demon Spirit's Gift's add on doesn't) which can prove fun in TW when you cast it on a wizzie who is about to cast an ultimate. You're usually so caught up healing/rezzing/buffing that you would almost always miss the timing though.

Demon Purify vs Sage Purify. Both adds are as good as each other in my opinion. In PvE you rarely run into situations where you need to purify multiple targets at once to prevent a squad wipe, which limits Sage Purify's potential. Demon Purify doesn't require chi, which is convenient most times, and only truly beneficial in very rare situations. In TW, again Sage Purify's potential is limited as there are very few life threatening AoE statuses PvP. Most times If your entire squad has HF on them, you would be lucky to purify one (if you're not healing) no matter the cooldown. Demon Purify is again very convenient but not truly life saving.

Demon Chromatic Healing Beam vs Sage Chromatic Healing Beam. In PvE, the extra heal on the Demon squad heal is infinitely more useful than the extra range given by Sage. If you miss a melee class due to them running out of your heal, chances are, they didn't need it anyway. The situations that require you to use the squad heal, however, makes Demon greatly outshine Sage. You hardly ever have the right situations to use squad heals in TW so I won't factor it in.

I've been speaking solely on heals thusfar, and have demonstrated that both routes work equally as well as a support cleric in my opinion. Now for the overlooked bit: the offense.

Now I know that people always have and always will say that clerics will never match up to other DDs, that if you want to metal Mage go roll a wizard etc etc etc. The simple truth of the matter is that there will always come a time where you will have to DD. Whether you are solo'ing PvE, PK'ing, or even being the second cleric in instances. You will have to DD. I've shown that both routes work equally as well as each other as support, but just about everyone will agree that Demon Clerics utterly outshine Sage clerics when it comes to DD'ing. Here are the main comparisons:

Demon combo: Wield Thunder + Great Cyclone vs Sage Plume Shot. While sage Plume shot has a greater damage add on as compared to Demon Great Cyclone, but Great Cyclone will always deal more damage due to the fact that we have Metal Mastery and not Physical Mastery. The metal debuff add on on Demon Wield Thunder further amplifies this effect. What attracted me further was how well the Demon skills coincided with each other; Metal debuff on Wield Thunder, and extra damage on Great Cyclone.

Demon Wield Thunder vs Sage Metal Mastery. A -lot- of Sage Clerics tell me that the extra 5% from Sage Metal Mastery makes up for the damage, but it doesn't. In single target combat, with the limited DD'ing skills we have, you will almost always start off with Wield Thunder, which means a constant -35% metal debuff. Sage Metal Mastery does, however, outshine Demon Wield Thunder when you use metal AoEs. Demon Clerics make up for this, and a lot more, by casting Spirit's Gift for the +m.attack add on before casting the AoEs.

Demon Razor Feathers and Siren's Kiss also have reduced cooldowns, which enables more casts in instances like Delta if you happen to be DD'ing.

Demon Spark vs Sage Spark. With Sage Magic Shell, Sage Clerics will be able to cast almost as fast as demon clerics in spark, but would further lose out since they have to actually cast the buff first. They will have a 25% damage reduction effect, however, which would pretty much only come in useful if you are tanking something.

So again, I stress that I am not saying that one route is better than the other, as it isn't true. This is only my analysis of each route according to my playing style. And my final logic was this; if I can support my squad equally as well as a demon as a sage, but would have a much greater DD capability, why choose one when I can have both?

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver · June 2011

The reasons I went Sage:

Sage ironheart vs Demon ironheart:

Sage ironheart heals 10% more hp, which means less time spent casting IH. This frees me up better to dd/debuff. Also, in situations where the squad is being stupid and I get attacked, I have a better chance to survive if I'm healing more. There have been times where I just almost made it, that 10% would make the difference. Demon Ironheart, even stacked, just isn't really putting going to make a big difference in my mp. Sure it's more convenient for whoever is being healed to have more mp but honestly having the boss go down faster achieves the same effects. In my opinion as long as I keeping the squad alive and saving the tank hp pots then i've done my jobs. It's a nice bonus for them but ultimately I went by which one would also serve me. So sage won.

Revive:

My gear allows me to cast revive pretty fast anyway, and the time i'm spending not running to the location the DD died also shaves off a couple of seconds. The distance puts me at less risk of dying as well. This is why I went sage.

Purify:

I've never had a problem using chi with purify, no matter how low level I was. It just cost very little chi to begin with. However, there are certain bosses that require you to remove a debuff quickly. The faster you cast it the faster you can recover the hp of whoever has been debuffed. This is why I like sage purify better.

Chromatic Healing Beam:

There are many bosses where I take less damage if I stand further away. Then again healing more is always better and usually more than makes up for that tiny bit of range. I actually liked demon CHB better. Demon wins

SoR:

I don't really use SoR that often anyway, but when I do it's usually because whoever it is needs a large heal. The extra defense that comes with that heal makes demon SoR the better choice. I don't think there is really any contest since SoR already gave a decent amount of chi anyway. demon wins

Vanguard Spirit:

The spamability of this skill in addition to how quickly IH casts (which is a superior heal) makes me feel that sage VS is leaps and bounds above demon vanguard. People say oh, just use SoR because it heals as well but SoR takes so long to channel and by the time I've channled it I could have already cast VS and went back to IHing myself. Sage wins

Magic Shell:
Again, another spam skill. If IH is good enough then I can get my attacks out faster with magic shell. The chi is nice with demon but sage clerics also get chi very fast with their sage technique so they don't need that add on to have the same chi. Sage wins.

Celestial Guardian Seal:

These two are pretty equal, with sage version being more convenient for the cleric. So sage wins.

Sprit's Gift:

Again, with mana is such easy supply once you reach this level. The +mat attack is better. Demon wins.

Plume Shot:

Sage does more damage and plume is already pretty fast. Sage wins.

Plume Shell:

Sage absorbs more damage, which the only time I need this skill is when I really need to absorb physical damage because something is attacking me. Sage wins.

Razor Feathers:

It really depends on the situation. If you're solo aoe grinding, the additional range means that some of the mobs won't get away from you making it way more useful. However, if you're DDing with a group and the mobs are in a pretty tight radius it would be better to cast faster. Equal.

Siren's Kiss:

This one is a tough one. On the one hand, the cooldown for demon is only 10 seconds, but if you just cast say a tempest and then siren's kiss does that really matter? You won't have the chi to cast it again anyway. If sage one does proc, you're going to still have to wait for the cooldown any darn way. In the 5 seconds extra that it takes for the sage's to cooldown, the demon cleric might not neccesarily have the chi anyway to cast it again. Then again, genies/apos can definitely make up for that. I'm going to give a slight edge to demon for consistency.

Elemental Seal/Dimensional Seal:

Sage version wins because it lasts longer. If you're not taking the time to purify it off yourself (and sage has insta purify) then you're doing it wrong.

Silent Seal/Chromatic Seal:

Increasing the duration increases the chances that it will proc for a longer period of time. Sage also has the insta purify skill, so that even if lasts only 1 second you still should have time to remove the effects off you since purify only takes half that to cast. I'm gonna give it to sage again.

Great Cyclone +Wield Thunder:

By itself Great cyclone, sage version wins in PVE due to the ability to kite easier. However, nobody does this skill by itself. Demon wield thunder + great cyclone is sexy and is far better than sage version. That being said a smart sage cleric will use it to kite and get off a couple of extra attacks. Since the sage cleric does more damage with metal mastery anyway an extra attack can make up for some of the damage. However, you can still kite with demon and it does more damage. Demon wins

Tempest:

Even if it doesn't take up two sparks, the cooldown prevents you from instacasting it twice anyway. Demon has a chance to freeze but doesn't do it often enough to count on it. Still when it does proc it's more useful, so Demon wins.

Metal Mastery:

Consistent damage beats the tiny chance to crit, Sage wins.

Techniques:

Demons wins in PvP because it takes off chi faster than a sage can put it on. Sage wins in pve because it lets you get out more ultimate attacks and thus better dd. So this one comes down to playstyle.

Sage Spark vs Demon Spark:

This is pretty situational but in general you won't be taking damage as often as you will be DDing. So Demon wins.

and just for the lols (since you should only be getting this skill if you have every single last other skill and it would bug you if you didn't have them all)

Blessings of the Purehearted

Since the only reason you would ever cast this is if you want chi and you're being cheap with your mana costs and can afford the extra time it takes to cast it, sage wins. Since it consisitenly reduces mana costs. Please do not seriously factor in this skill to your consideration, i'm just throwing it out there.

Conclusion: With sage's seals and metal mastery being better than demons, they can compete with a demon cleric in terms of damage output. They won't do as much damage, but they won't do so little damage compared to a demon cleric that it's really all that noticeable if the cleric knows what they are doing. In addition, Sage IH is better for the cleric when the going gets tough and can prevent a squad wipe. Also, sage def buffs are better as is their plume shell. You won't need better defenses all the time, but when you do you'll be glad that you have them. Yes both SoR and CHB are better in the demon form, but the situations in which you have to use either of those skills don't come up often enough to factor it in. It really depends on your play style on whether or not demon rez is better than sage rez. I personally have enough channeling where my rez is fast enough and I wouldn't rez someone unless whoever is taking can last enough without my heals for me to have time to cast it anyway. So for me sage rez is better but demon rez may be better for you. I went with the longer list for my play style, but at the end of the day one isn't always better than the other when it comes to cleric culti.

/wall of text

Nella - Sanctuary · June 2011

I went Demon because:

1.) Demon IH and Purify: Demon IH recovers mana, it is loved by melee classes and if you decide to AoE farm DQs from Spiders (what I LOVE to do), you will have a 'cheap heal' and you won't even need mana food. Same reason why I like Demon Purify, btw. It does not take any chi so I can save the chi for Tempest or BB in instances and don't have to waste my Genie's energy. Anyways Demon IH heals ALOT. I have time to DD and debuff just like a Sage Cleric... Even in Nirvana where I have to heal squishy Sins.

2.) Demon Revive: 3 sec channeling plus my -36% chan = very fast Revive. Like, when things go wrong at Dragoons in FCC and someone dies they can get up so damn fast they don't lose the big exp from mobs. Or if they die in Nirvana, they just get up and back to DDing real fast. :P People LOVE it!

3.) Demon Metal Mastery: Even that 1% crit helps! With my solo accessories (crit rings, crit tome, etc), I have 17% crit and I'm Arcane.

I crit ALOT, and it's better than 5% damage. I often 1hit kill mobs at my lvl with crits, so it's better for PVE. And I guess even for PVP but i don't PVP so whatever...

4.) Chromatic: It heals more, so it's better. I always manage to heal everyone with this skill, so the extra range on Sage one is completely useless.

5.) Rejuv: Epic extra pdef buff and it's spammable! Nice skill for tanking tough bosses. I love it!

6.) Cyclone: The + damage is nice, much better than the extra damage on Sage's Plume because Cyclone is Metal and does more damage than a physical attack.

7.) Wield Thunder: The Metal debuff is awesome! I love this skill!

8.) Tempest: The occasional freeze is a nice extra.

Edit2: Also! I asked 20 online people (different classes) in my faction a while ago, 16 of them preferred Demon Cleric as a character or as a healer in squad. We have 15 Clerics in fac, 7 of them are 89+ and 6 (!) went Demon, only 1 Sage.

apex1predator · June 2011

I chose demon over sage for the IH perk, the reduced restime and overall dmg( wield thunder Great Cyclone combo is too smexy). I have read about the 10% healing capacity of sage IH 'outweighing' the mp benefit.
If we look at our builds id say that 10%(for me) is useless. My build is 98% pure(barring 7 points which are in vit atm) which means all my spells are almost at maximum potential. 10% more for IH results in 420more hp assuming your base mag is 12k( if im reading the description right, correct me if im wrong). so they get 4200 with demon and 4620 with sage over 15 seconds. The healing bonus is only beneficial if youre hybrid imo.
If i want to DD, debuff or w/e i do 1 Stream 3 IH and the tank is good to go for the next 15 seconds and i can do as i please.

That all being said, Demon fits the way i play the game as i love to DD and this gives me the best of both DD and healing. Doesnt mean sage is fail and demon is win. Sage fits others much more than demon..just compare sage to demon, and see which path fits the way you want to play the best.

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver · June 2011

Why do people keep comparing sage plume shot to demon cyclone? Of course all our metal attacks do more damage than plume shot even before you go sage/demon. >.< If you want a fair comparison you have to compare the same skills to the same skills. :P Sage plume shot > demon plume shot. demon wield thunder + cyclone > sage wield thunder + cyclone. b:sweat

I will say that if you went for a crit build demon metal mastery is better than sage metal mastery. But for the average player who probably went for the -chan, sage metal mastery is going to be better for it's consistent damage vs a tiny crit rate. Crit is the same as chan, it really only makes a large difference if you build it so you have a decent amount of it. It's not worth sacrificing other stats for though if you will only have 1-2% crit or -3% channel. Unless you're like nella who seems to have both in which case it comes down to playstyle. lol

I would also advise all clerics at the end of the day to not go by what other people went by. Demon and sage for clerics is the one of the most honest culti choices of any of the classes. Right now, most people are going demon. Not so long ago, most people went sage. It's swings back and forth a LOT because the honesty of the culti choice so go by YOUR playstyle.

Chrisssss - Sanctuary · June 2011

I would say sage is better, because the way people play now a days it's all about 5.0 squads and most of those sins / archers / BM's will want a fast cleric. Since sage clerics can gain sparks really fast using master lee tech /stream of rej & wield thunder + stronger heals overall it really gives sage clerics a massive advangtage. Even in TW a sage cleric is a better cata healers because sage purfy is just hands down spamable + sage revive will keep clerics away from those nasty cleric killers + stronger heals.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear · June 2011

Chrisssss - Sanctuary wrote: »

I would say sage is better, because the way people play now a days it's all about 5.0 squads and most of those sins / archers / BM's will want a fast cleric. Since sage clerics can gain sparks really fast using master lee tech /stream of rej & wield thunder + stronger heals overall it really gives sage clerics a massive advangtage. Even in TW a sage cleric is a better cata healers because sage purfy is just hands down spamable + sage revive will keep clerics away from those nasty cleric killers + stronger heals.

I agree with most of this, however, heavily disagree about revive in TW. The distance is nice but if someone targets you, you're going to die well before your revives can finish channeling (even with magic shell). In this instance demon >>>>> sage revive. Both cultivations gain chi rather quickly so this is a wash. Without a doubt, though, of the things you mentioned, sage IH and sage puri are the biggest reasons to be a cata healer.

As for the topic at hand, I initially was sage on my main (100) cleric, and switched to demon. I even wanted to go down the sage path again on my 2nd (92) cleric just for fun. However, I find more demon skills to be more "essential" and extremely useful to a squad overall. The few reasons for a basic PVE cleric to go sage is IH, MS, VS, and passive mastery. For demon, however, cyclone (I consider plume shot a wash as both have distinct advantages that cancel each other out), stream, wield thunder, tempest, VS/MS, chromatic seal, SG, revive.. way too many demon skills are useful, added onto the fact that the channeling bonus is incredibly useful when not wanting to keep on phys def gear. I will note that, on the other hand, if I could ever get my hands on some -12 or -18 channeling gear I would without a doubt switch back to sage.

Dawnx_ - Harshlands · June 2011

I've got both Demon and Sage clerics their both good to play but i prefer demon because Revive is 3 sec and Purify doesn't use chi. But I don't have sage Revive or Purify so i'm a bit biased.

megamanda · January 2012

I personally love being a demon cleric

for all the reasons its been discussed above^^

DuckTapez - Archosaur · January 2012

you, dun necro b:surrender

Marna - Harshlands · February 2012

I went demon cuz of the rez basically.
When people mess up and die at a boss, when mobs are killed or whatever the reason, it's best 2 rez them in 3 seconds and mind ur healing.
It worked wonderful in SFC.
Faster channeling when u spark is also good, cuz the spark lasts a certain amount of time and I love: spark+spam IH- it saves any tank.
Than again there is Demon IH which comes in handy when bm's ask for pots and say they forgot them, like 4 IH and they can't complain anymore.
If there were any other reasons I don't know them anymore.. have been a demon cleric for over 1 and a half year... if not 2...

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · February 2012

Marna - Harshlands wrote: »

I went demon cuz of the rez basically.
When people mess up and die at a boss, when mobs are killed or whatever the reason, it's best 2 rez them in 3 seconds and mind ur healing.
It worked wonderful in SFC.
Faster channeling when u spark is also good, cuz the spark lasts a certain amount of time and I love: spark+spam IH- it saves any tank.
Than again there is Demon IH which comes in handy when bm's ask for pots and say they forgot them, like 4 IH and they can't complain anymore.
If there were any other reasons I don't know them anymore.. have been a demon cleric for over 1 and a half year... if not 2...

This *points below*
(and I

demon, but its honestly a pretty balanced culti)

DuckTapez - Archosaur wrote: »

you, dun necro b:surrender

Sage/ Demon

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