APS is apparently taking over BH too lol.

RosangeIa - Heavens Tear · June 2011

I've noticed more and more that some people who put together BH squads want sins over other classes. And I'm not talking about 10X BH, just things like BH79 or whatever. I don't know if it's all that common below that.

Just saying that people seem to be more and more self centered. If you need a specific class for Nirvana or FF, something like that, I can understand... but BH? Please. Everything dies fast enough as it is. BH is something we all need, so I don't see why not to invite anyone who happens to need it at the time. I've always been nice about inviting anyone for BHs as long as we have the cleric and tank. Don't see why I can't get the same treatment, yes?

I'm starting to wonder more and more if I should just continue my old level 85 Sin again. I just don't enjoy the gameplay as much as Mystic, Veno, or Cleric. It doesn't seem to need as much thought but it's increasingly the only class people want.

I miss the old days where we only had 6 classes. May not have had Mystics which I love more than the others but, at least back then everything was balanced and fair.

Not trying to bash Sins or people who like them as I know they're really great for squads that need a few hard hitting DDs. I just wish the devs would balance things out more between all the classes so finding squads is more possible for everyone like it used to be.

Evict - Heavens Tear · June 2011

People ask me specifically to open TT all the time. Sins broke that too I guess. ;3

RosangeIa - Heavens Tear · June 2011

You're just special :P

Nakhimov - Lost City · June 2011

Oh, you casters. Nobody loves you anymore.

Empu - Sanctuary · June 2011

I agree the aps-mania is growing to ridiculous proportions. When I see those "lvl74 aps sin lf bh glut", I wonder if they are serious or joking. I play a sin myself, so it's in my adventage I suppose. But it also annoys me. For anything you get asked your aps, just recently I was explained again how I would be better demon. Last time I wanted to do bh59 with my bm, I got asked for my aps. I know the difference, on my lvl100 barb I get a lot of pms on delta day and silence for the rest. On sin I get pm'ed for anything at any time, not a chance to be bored 5min to wonder what to do.

I hope it stops some day, and I'll go back to my barb. 1.25 aps ftw. But till then, barb will just collect keys for 99 quest. On sin I'm at least needed/wanted, like the old days on my fluffy kitty.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear · June 2011

RosangeIa - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I've noticed more and more that some people who put together BH squads want sins over other classes. And I'm not talking about 10X BH, just things like BH79 or whatever. I don't know if it's all that common below that.

Just saying that people seem to be more and more self centered. If you need a specific class for Nirvana or FF, something like that, I can understand... but BH? Please. Everything dies fast enough as it is. BH is something we all need, so I don't see why not to invite anyone who happens to need it at the time. I've always been nice about inviting anyone for BHs as long as we have the cleric and tank. Don't see why I can't get the same treatment, yes?

I'm starting to wonder more and more if I should just continue my old level 85 Sin again. I just don't enjoy the gameplay as much as Mystic, Veno, or Cleric. It doesn't seem to need as much thought but it's increasingly the only class people want.

I miss the old days where we only had 6 races. May not have had Mystics which I love more than the others but, at least back then everything was balanced and fair.

Not trying to bash Sins or people who like them as I know they're really great for squads that need a few hard hitting DDs. I just wish the devs would balance things out more between all the classes so finding squads is more possible for everyone like it used to be.

I wonder if you notice how often sins get overlooked for RB delta, especially RB BH, never mind a wave 4/5/full chrono RB or a full culti RB. Favouritism has existed since the game was started. It used to be wizards who were favoured in BH, people not wizards complained. Used to be venos and herc venos favoured in BH, people not venos or herc venos complained. Used to be fist BM's favoured in BH, people complained. Now sins favoured in most BH's, and guess what, non-sins complain.

The game is unbalanced but each still has an advantage over one another. Unfortunately you have to accept the game for what it is, an unbalanced cash shop game, and enjoy what little of it isn't without enormous flaws.

Daedallus - Sanctuary · June 2011

I still accept any class for my bh's...

Yes, even sins b:chuckle

RosangeIa - Heavens Tear · June 2011

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

I agree the aps-mania is growing to ridiculous proportions. When I see those "lvl74 aps sin lf bh glut", I wonder if they are serious or joking. I play a sin myself, so it's in my adventage I suppose. But it also annoys me. For anything you get asked your aps, just recently I was explained again how I would be better demon. Last time I wanted to do bh59 with my bm, I got asked for my aps. I know the difference, on my lvl100 barb I get a lot of pms on delta day and silence for the rest. On sin I get pm'ed for anything at any time, not a chance to be bored 5min to wonder what to do.

I hope it stops some day, and I'll go back to my barb. 1.25 aps ftw. But till then, barb will just collect keys for 99 quest. On sin I'm at least needed/wanted, like the old days on my fluffy kitty.

Honestly I didn't get far enough on my Assassin. I made her when TB first came out, and up to when I made 85, APS was still not a big deal. Took a break from PWI for seven months to come back to "LF Aps DDs for whatever" in WC all the time. At that point I knew I wouldn't be able to afford to outfit my Sin well, so I have more or less left her at a stand still. I imagine it's harder to find squads if you don't have insane aps. though something I wonder is why not take one with even 1.33 or something if they hit hard enough. I've met some Sins who may not have the Aps but they are hell of a hard hit and take agro plenty. O_o; Idk, maybe I'm just more forgiving since I kinda understand how hard it is to get to the point where you have the money for nice gear. Gotta start somewhere, as they say.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I wonder if you notice how often sins get overlooked for RB delta, especially RB BH, never mind a wave 4/5/full chrono RB or a full culti RB. Favouritism has existed since the game was started. It used to be wizards who were favoured in BH, people not wizards complained. Used to be venos and herc venos favoured in BH, people not venos or herc venos complained. Used to be fist BM's favoured in BH, people complained. Now sins favoured in most BH's, and guess what, non-sins complain.

The game is unbalanced but each still has an advantage over one another. Unfortunately you have to accept the game for what it is, an unbalanced cash shop game, and enjoy what little of it isn't without enormous flaws.

As for 10x BHs, it has been quite a long time since I did them to be honest with you. Since I've never had to do it on a Sin, I really have no idea how hard it is for them to find parties. For my cleric it's easy for obvious reasons, but even as a veno it wasn't always instant since everyone and their mom has a veno lol. We'll see how hard/easy a time I have with my Mystic, though I have a feeling I probably will have a hard time finding a squad for that too.

I never finished chrono on even my cleric simply because it's near impossible to find people willing to run a full RB. Maybe things changed since I last cared enough to try, I don't know.

That and I never really cared much for RB in the first place, and thusly have not run it all that much. Not enough to know exactly what to do which is embarrassing considering how long I've been on PWI lol. It just never interested me. Maybe if I could have actually found groups for it, that would have been a good start.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear · June 2011

RosangeIa - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Honestly I didn't get far enough on my Assassin. I made her when TB first came out, and up to when I made 85, APS was still not a big deal. Took a break from PWI for seven months to come back to "LF Aps DDs for whatever" in WC all the time. At that point I knew I wouldn't be able to afford to outfit my Sin well, so I have more or less left her at a stand still. I imagine it's harder to find squads if you don't have insane aps. though something I wonder is why not take one with even 1.33 or something if they hit hard enough. I've met some Sins who may not have the Aps but they are hell of a hard hit and take agro plenty. O_o; Idk, maybe I'm just more forgiving since I kinda understand how hard it is to get to the point where you have the money for nice gear. Gotta start somewhere, as they say.

As for 10x BHs, it has been quite a long time since I did them to be honest with you. Since I've never had to do it on a Sin, I really have no idea how hard it is for them to find parties. For my cleric it's easy for obvious reasons, but even as a veno it wasn't always instant since everyone and their mom has a veno lol. We'll see how hard/easy a time I have with my Mystic, though I have a feeling I probably will have a hard time finding a squad for that too.

I never finished chrono on even my cleric simply because it's near impossible to find people willing to run a full RB. Maybe things changed since I last cared enough to try, I don't know.

That and I never really cared much for RB in the first place, and thusly have not run it all that much. Not enough to know exactly what to do which is embarrassing considering how long I've been on PWI lol. It just never interested me. Maybe if I could have actually found groups for it, that would have been a good start.

While some prefer Assassins or Venomancers for running tickets in rebirth, in reality, neither are needed for RB. One could allow an Archer or Seeker or any of the other DD classes to run tickets for the first couple waves, especially to maximize AOE damage for waves 2 or 3. Less necessary if one intends on doing for BH and just go by the bonuses or spawn kill. Assassins are one of the worst AOE classes, if not the worst, and their main use would be Bloodpaint, Subsea, and APS damage on bosses (could be useful as a boss lure for the ones that knock down BB if one is creative enough to know how to pull the boss away), which would drop relatively fast anyhow.

Mystics have provided to be an alternative to Clerics in certain instances.

This isn't to give the impression that every class has equal footing, but in reality since the day I played there's always been a class that gets more preference than others in squads. I'm biased toward Sins in FF -- there were times I was biased toward wizards, archers, and mostly a squad full of BM's.

To me, the person that suggests they are unbiased when picking squad members.. they're lying. There's times where people feel generous and maybe just invite the first 5 people that PM them, but the "older" or "traditional" way of playing (cleric heals barb who tanks everything and nobody takes aggro) is a bias too.

I think enjoying what little this game offers in terms of fun is to understand those biases and just enjoy what you have with others and the benefits it gives. If you're basing your class off of what is "needed", well, you'll find yourself playing "class" roulette when playing because there's always biases.

Empu - Sanctuary · June 2011

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I wonder if you notice how often sins get overlooked for RB delta, especially RB BH, never mind a wave 4/5/full chrono RB or a full culti RB. Favouritism has existed since the game was started. It used to be wizards who were favoured in BH, people not wizards complained. Used to be venos and herc venos favoured in BH, people not venos or herc venos complained. Used to be fist BM's favoured in BH, people complained. Now sins favoured in most BH's, and guess what, non-sins complain.

You're right there, but still : "APS DD" for bh59 or something is just idiotic. The aps thing is going further then I've seen any other of the favoritisms. aps for fcc, aps wanted on lvls where all you can have is -0.1 int. Sins can do a lot.... lvl99/100. Before that lvl it's more bs then objective reasons to prefer a sin over another class.

RosangeIa - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Honestly I didn't get far enough on my Assassin. I made her when TB first came out, and up to when I made 85, APS was still not a big deal. Took a break from PWI for seven months to come back to "LF Aps DDs for whatever" in WC all the time. At that point I knew I wouldn't be able to afford to outfit my Sin well, so I have more or less left her at a stand still. I imagine it's harder to find squads if you don't have insane aps. though something I wonder is why not take one with even 1.33 or something if they hit hard enough. I've met some Sins who may not have the Aps but they are hell of a hard hit and take agro plenty. O_o; Idk, maybe I'm just more forgiving since I kinda understand how hard it is to get to the point where you have the money for nice gear. Gotta start somewhere, as they say.

There is a big difference in applying to wc squads and getting asked for stuff. If you get a good name because of great gear or exceptional skills, or w/e reason, ppl will ask you. However, you can be +12 r9 and wc squads will reject you cause you're not 5 aps. The opposite is also true. You can be a crappy DD (some TT80 +1 dagger sin with 4 or 5 aps), but you will get invited on wc squads easier then another class with +10 weapon but below 4 aps. Ppl judge on aps, not how much damage the person really does.

RosangeIa - Heavens Tear · June 2011

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

There is a big difference in applying to wc squads and getting asked for stuff. If you get a good name because of great gear or exceptional skills, or w/e reason, ppl will ask you. However, you can be +12 r9 and wc squads will reject you cause you're not 5 aps. The opposite is also true. You can be a crappy DD (some TT80 +1 dagger sin with 4 or 5 aps), but you will get invited on wc squads easier then another class with +10 weapon but below 4 aps. Ppl judge on aps, not how much damage the person really does.

That really makes no sense to me haha. Logically I would want the DD that does most damage at a decent rate. Thinking specifically about a sin or BM only of course in this case (maybe Archer too since some like to fight in close quarters lol). I'd much rather take someone with +10 to their daggers/fists/claws than someone with low to no refines even if they have good aps. But that's me I guess.

Maybe I just don't know what I'm missing, since before I more or less quit my level 100s, I ran Nirvana with normal squads. Barb, BM, Cleric (usually was me), Veno, extra DDs. It took strategy to learn the bosses and plan accordingly. I can see how killing them ridiculously fast would be ideal, but I don't feel like it'd be game-breaking not to. Still get the job done, still get the same drops, everyone is happy.

Razorburn - Dreamweaver · June 2011

-first story..I answer random wc for dd for nivana. I send 101 sin they say whats your aps..I link them them my +12 double garnet nirvana daggers, they ask me my aps again...I say oh well an go about my day..Pay openers an just duo it with my wife-even as a sin i am frustrated with random wcers.
_next one is random wc for bh an I am quized on my aps-I am a demon sin 4 base- I get in squad an the leader is a seeker.If i could have got him to give me lead I would have kicked him an let him know he didnt qualify for his own squad:)
So yeah the whole aps thing is way outta control.

Angel_Spawn - Sanctuary · June 2011

If i hear that overly used and abused letter combination APS, I just ignore the *******s, pity my black list is always full, otherwise I`d shove all the morons there who DEMAND that you need high APS.

I seriously hope they nerf APS heavily, (ya sounds weird from a 5.0 sin ) but the fun ends after you just spark and twitch like a crack addict!

ReMakaBo - Archosaur · June 2011

What sucks, are those that play the sin and BM classes, are pretty much forced into the high APS line of gameplay, otherwise they are considered fails.

SinfuINature - Harshlands · June 2011

Angel_Spawn - Sanctuary wrote: »

If i hear that overly used and abused letter combination APS, I just ignore the *******s, pity my black list is always full, otherwise I`d shove all the morons there who DEMAND that you need high APS.

I seriously hope they nerf APS heavily, (ya sounds weird from a 5.0 sin ) but the fun ends after you just spark and twitch like a crack addict!

i wanna twitch... b:surrender

rgog · June 2011

Even at lvl 69 with 1.43 aps my SIN does sweet damage.

The reason SIN's are wanted for BH's is because of BP (helps all melee) and also ribstrike (slow mob) these can have a big effect on some of the tougher bosses. Polearm and Wyrven are particularly nasty and it is nice to see them die fast and also have that extra self-healing.

Hexalot - Dreamweaver · June 2011

ReMakaBo - Archosaur wrote: »

What sucks, are those that play the sin and BM classes, are pretty much forced into the high APS line of gameplay, otherwise they are considered fails.

There was a pure axe BM in a 100+ FC squad I ran with yesterday. b:avoid

As for people now asking for aps even in BH's... well maybe Dreamweaver is just different because I haven't notice any WCing for interval DDs to join bounty hunter quests. In fact, the majority of BH 100s I've done recently have pretty much been rainbow squads. I'll admit though that venos seem to find it especially tough trying to get into late game BHs.

Ssapintrayas - Dreamweaver · June 2011

A friend just encountered a dude claiming to be totaly APS (ye he said it like that). Thing is, he was prolly <30 cos my friend met him at the Werewolf Spearmens place...

I knew a sin which wore lv 23 HA wristguads till lv 90+ cos they had -0.05 int on them. o.o
Also i see Sins wearing lv 80 green TT Daggers +1 up to lv 100 cos, OMG its -int on them!

Also theres a sin arround lv 79 who wanted to spend all the coin on -0.05 int instead of the lv 79 skill cos the lv79 sin heal is much worse then -0.05int. Ok but that dude also told me as Wiz i have to use a Magic Sword cos Wand is for Clerics...

And ye, i find it quite funny to see all the "NEED 5APS" WC shouts since many of those who shout dont even have 5 APS themselfes.
And i even totaly see the point that, if you are 5 APS and look for as-fast-as-possible Nirvi farm runs, youd want people with as much dmg as possible with you. I just feel that this way its like "looking for dude who earns me coin cos im lazy/poor/both and i dun wanna make any efford myself."

And ye, noticed that APS wanting extended to lowbie BHs. Same people just cant help but tell me that my dmg sucks before we even encountered first Boss or checking my Gear....
They somehow feel the need to save me from playing Wizzard and be a non-factor in DPS.
I still like Wizzard but i see why there arent many, all that "YOU SUCK you dont haz APS!!!" is kind of annoying. Blacklist is a wonderfull thing tho, too bad it can get full.b:chuckle

Daedallus - Sanctuary · June 2011

Ssapintrayas - Dreamweaver wrote: »

. Ok but that dude also told me as Wiz i have to use a Magic Sword cos Wand is for Clerics...

A

Yeah... and patakas are for Venos and...errr... well idiots will be idiots...

We need to live with them... after all it's illegal to kill them b:chuckle

Oh and Wizzies are definitely know for hitting real low damage b:laugh

Quilue - Sanctuary · June 2011

A lot of people on World Chat are extremely **** and don't really have any clue what squad members an instance actually needs. You don't really need high DDs for any instance except 3-x TT, and that's only because in TT you must take out bosses as quickly as possible before you get squad wiped and charm *****. Even in 3-x TT you don't need a sin...but it's easier cuz there's BP for other melees.

FB79 is mostly running, the bosses are not that hard and die easily...wtf.

Tynne - Lost City · June 2011

rgog wrote: »

Even at lvl 69 with 1.43 aps my SIN does sweet damage.

The reason SIN's are wanted for BH's is because of BP (helps all melee) and also ribstrike (slow mob) these can have a big effect on some of the tougher bosses. Polearm and Wyrven are particularly nasty and it is nice to see them die fast and also have that extra self-healing.

they disregard aps on a sin is if they are 89+ sage with lvl11bp/rib

ReMakaBo - Archosaur · June 2011

The funny part of it all is; people want high aps players in squad to save time, so they'll WC for hours to find some epic time saving player.

0.o Doesn't even make sense in a sentence, but they somehow justify it.

LenieClarke - Heavens Tear · June 2011

Daedallus - Sanctuary wrote: »

Yeah... and patakas are for Venos and...errr... well idiots will be idiots...

actually, i'm still trying to figure out what patakas ARE good for... the rank 8/9 ones are pretty good just because they've got such insanely high stats, but that's true for any rank 8/9 weapon.

Daedallus - Sanctuary · June 2011

LenieClarke - Heavens Tear wrote: »

actually, i'm still trying to figure out what patakas ARE good for... the rank 8/9 ones are pretty good just because they've got such insanely high stats, but that's true for any rank 8/9 weapon.

My lvl 24 veno used a pataka from suply stash ( I think)b:surrender

But at that level it doesn't matter much, lol.

Both melee and caster classes have a range of weapons ( except sins and psys ). Some are good, some, no quite... just pick your preference

Infernia - Harshlands · June 2011

LenieClarke - Heavens Tear wrote: »

actually, i'm still trying to figure out what patakas ARE good for... the rank 8/9 ones are pretty good just because they've got such insanely high stats, but that's true for any rank 8/9 weapon.

PAtakas are good for classes that dont soley rely on their MAtk. I.E venomancers :O

Venos can afford to play lottery with their damage. Clerics tend to prefer consistant heals, wizards prefer spikes in moderation (Swords ftw. I hate glaives).

Im still half tempted to turn my Neon purgatory into a pataka for my wiz tho. Just for that occasional "WTFHOLY****" crit

~On topic, I see people asking for APS for BH fairly frequently too, its somewhat annoying. BH was the last resort of non-aps cash and dailies, now its also getting pushed into the gutter.

UnderTheSea - Lost City · June 2011

I'm lvl 99 sin with pretty good APS but I still prefer skill spamming with Chill of the Deep buff.

Yeahhhhhhhhhh inzane damage mang! b:pleased

LenieClarke - Heavens Tear · June 2011

Infernia - Harshlands wrote: »

PAtakas are good for classes that dont soley rely on their MAtk. I.E venomancers :O

yeah, but in the spirit of this thread, patakas have lousy APS. b:surrender

(plus i hate playing lottery with my damage. which is why i'm planning to kit my wiz out with a wand, eventually, and why i stick with magic swords on my veno.)

perhaps i'm just lucky, but i've not seen anybody call for APS on a BH run. 'course, my BH is still 59, so maybe i simply wouldn't have, yet. if it ever comes to that, i'll be forming my own BH squads and kicking anybody over 2.5aps or so, just to be ornery...

Gweniivere - Dreamweaver · June 2011

I think there are deeper implications on the knowledge of newer players in the game, especially since FC-selling has been on the rise again these past few months. I don't really know, but seems like they're leveling too fast, decide to take a break from buying FCs, and do the BH for that day. They've probably been influenced by WC or maybe has seen firsthand the DPS power of APS; or maybe they're leveling an APS toon themselves. Either way, these just-joined-a-few-days-ago-players already in the 80s range would definitely lack the basics of PWI in general, and they learn to only think a certain way. I'm not even talking about knowing how to play your specific character (though it's important too) but knowing instances, knowing the basics of aggro, etc. I guess this is all just my complaints about noobs speed leveling these days (I saw people SELLING FCs in the 85-95s range, wth?), but also to emphasize, would people who know the instances well enough REALLY ask for APS? I don't think any "veteran" player would ask for APS when BHing on lower instances on a new toon, at least I hope not--which just means BHing (exceptions below) and demanding APS comes from the less knowledgeable players; though it's just my guess.

The only BHs I can think of that high APS would help the most in is BH3-3, like you said (though not anymore), and BH Snakefist; haven't tried Lunar to really know. Every other BH is fine with the regular squad formation, Barb tanking, etc.

APS in lower instances is more than idiotic. An example would be BH69, when I played my sin, I switched on Chill, but even then I was afraid the extra +atk lvl would still be too much, and only hit my skills once every couple of seconds, avoiding auto-attack for a bit. Meanwhile, another sin in squad just kept DDing normally; he got aggro and died. -.-

I have a 5aps sin, bm and archer (eww compared to the other 2), but it gets really boring when things are too easy, and it doesn't mean they can do everything themselves.

ILubby - Raging Tide · June 2011

Hmmmm, not really, I think you just happened to have bad luck. Although I've seen a WC lately " APS barb LF BH59 " lol and squads looking for aps for TT2-2 >_>; the ideology of wanting aps for runs other than nirvana exists but I don't think it has become a phenomenon. Maybe a server difference..?

Traz - Dreamweaver · June 2011

I tell them my sin is 1.25 oh the looks I get

Ssapintrayas - Dreamweaver · June 2011

Ye, that "WCing for hours to save time" concept still isnt quite clear to me....b:chuckle

Oh and miserable me, how could i have ever taken fun in beeing a Wizard. Oh miserable me needs to be saved from my selfbestowed misery of not beeing the end in the DPS food-chain.

That one Seeker who realy insisted hard in my dps-being sucky (i didnt even said otherways i kept telling him that i know that im easy outdamaged by some classes). He still insisted that his dps is so much better, even after the boss tried to kill me instead of him several times.
After Glut he then wanted to duel me realy badly to proof me his dps is better then mine. Ok i might have provokated him by mentioning that i for some reason with my horrible horrible dps again stole aggro from him.
Not that im that hardhitting, i think he just sucked, even kept claiming i only outdamaged him cos, lucky me, he helped me by lowering the mobs metal resistance.... O.O

I want to mention here i would never attempt to steal aggro on purpose on a Boss who could potentially kill a party member or myself if i do so...XD

Also my BMlv 44 got random whispered how i could be so silly to wear a sucky Xeno's Sledgehammer (+2 with 2x flawless garnet shard inside btw...costed me like 300k thanks to my friends

) and how he is so much better then me cos he has 2 star fists with -0.05 int...at that point i am not sure if he realy checked what weapon i wear and that he just saw "omg she uses a hammer! I must save that poor blasphemer and guide her back to the right path!".
And all that in the 4x levels... ye it realy became quite a madness.

APS is apparently taking over BH too lol.

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