Nirvana squads

Valirah - Sanctuary · April 2011

TheDan - Sanctuary wrote: »

I consider the 60+ attack that archers can maintain 5aps with full rank 9 the main advantage in dps, whereas sins and bms have no benefits from r9 set dps wise.

Um, what are you talking about? The Bow is the crucial 6th piece of the R9 set that gives us archers that crazy Att lvl. 5/6 R9 with deicides gives a paltry +13 Att level.

Yuji_Sakai - Harshlands · April 2011

Mysticarella - Lost City wrote: »

Higher APS does not mean Higher DPS, but it means more damage over time.

Wait wait wait. Here is what goes through my head when I see this:

"Higher APS does not mean Higher DPS":
Ok, this statement makes sense since DPS = (APS*DPH)/1 second, and there is another variable there that affects DPS, namely DPH. A significantly high APS wouldn't necessarily mean a higher DPS, since the DPH variable could be significantly low.

Now I look at "but it(APS) means more damage over time"
Here my mind stumbles, and thinks:
your first statement is "Higher APS =/= Higher DPS"
the second statement is "Higher APS = Higher damage over time"
DPS = Damage/1 second
A second is a unit used to measure time, so
Damage/1 second = Damage/Time
one way to say Damage/Time in speech or writing is "Damage over time"

So your two statements here say:
1. "Higher APS =/= Higher DPS" also written "Higher APS =/= Higher Damage over time"
2. "Higher APS = Higher DPS" also written "Higher APS = Higher Damage over time"

Your two statements are contradictory, sir. O.o

But directly related to the topic, I think that it is understandable for people who are capable of running Nirv in 6 minutes to create squads to do so, but I do see people who don't seem to fully understand how damage is calculated. (for example people who really do only look at aps, or a 4.0 aps sparked sin that uses Hook and Thorn instead of their R8 daggers because "its faster"). Seriously, I think some people I've met would opt to deal 1 damage per hit if it would give them 25 aps. They would sit there like "look how FAST I am!!" as the mob's hp doesn't even move because its hp regen is higher than their DPS.

Kniraven - Lost City · April 2011

Aneurysmal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Highest Potential DPS (over 10 seconds) Aps Barb, Cleric, 2x APS sin, 1x Demon APS BM with Demon HF, 1x Veno

Highest Potential DPS (over 30 seconds) Aps Barb, Cleric 1x APS sin, 1x Demon APS BM with Demon HF, 1x Veno, 1x Seeker

Highest Potential for Boss to be dead in <5 seconds 1x Cleric, 1x Veno, 1x HF, 2x Wizards, 1x Sage Seeker

Highest Potential DPS (on non-ampable/hfable boss) APS Barb, Cleric, 3x APS sin, Seeker

Lets see, what classes are left out... Psychic (fair equivalent to Wizard in 3rd Equation), Mystic, Archer (which can also run good aps)

Highest DPS squad does not include a Cleric at all.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide · April 2011

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

Highest DPS squad does not include a Cleric at all.

This.

Boogiepanda - Raging Tide · April 2011

Aneurysmal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Cleric
Cleric
Cleric
Cleric
Cleric

Great cyclone is ****ing OP.

Sthenith - Dreamweaver · April 2011

However you see it, and no matter what calculations you might make, you're basically forgetting one simple thing. Gear.

The point being, no matter what weapon you "link" to someone who's Wcing for a nirvy squad, you might still do **** damage.

I stated this as an example in my original post, because i had a choice to make :

1. Go with nirvy daggers, get 4.0 aps sparked

2. keep my R8 daggers and get the shadow ashura greaves to reach 3.33 sparked.

In case (1) my aps increased but my damage output went DOWN. In case(2) my aps increased less but my damage significantly went UP.

So, instead of going for more aps i chose going for more dps, which imo is still the best possible choice.

By the way, i calculated it in every possible way, in order to reach the same or more dmg output i have now, i would have had to refine nirvy daggers to +9. That is oc counted without the leggings since i wouldn't have had the cash to make those.

Now i have the leggings, do more dmg, and can still build my way up to either R9 or nirvy daggers.

ILubby - Raging Tide · April 2011

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

Highest DPS squad does not include a Cleric at all.

Sad and true b:sweat

Kniraven - Lost City · April 2011

Sthenith - Dreamweaver wrote: »

However you see it, and no matter what calculations you might make, you're basically forgetting one simple thing. Gear.

The point being, no matter what weapon you "link" to someone who's Wcing for a nirvy squad, you might still do **** damage.

I stated this as an example in my original post, because i had a choice to make :

1. Go with nirvy daggers, get 4.0 aps sparked

2. keep my R8 daggers and get the shadow ashura greaves to reach 3.33 sparked.

In case (1) my aps increased but my damage output went DOWN. In case(2) my aps increased less but my damage significantly went UP.

So, instead of going for more aps i chose going for more dps, which imo is still the best possible choice.

By the way, i calculated it in every possible way, in order to reach the same or more dmg output i have now, i would have had to refine nirvy daggers to +9. That is oc counted without the leggings since i wouldn't have had the cash to make those.

Now i have the leggings, do more dmg, and can still build my way up to either R9 or nirvy daggers.

You are confusing DPS for DPH.

Sthenith - Dreamweaver · April 2011

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

You are confusing DPS for DPH.

1. APS = attacks per second.

2. DPH = damage per hit.

3. DPS = damage per second.

DPS = APS * DPH

IF, in my case (talking sparked) :

4 APS * 14K DPH = 56K DPS (nirvy daggers, no leggings)

3.33 APS * 21K DPH = 69.93K DPS (R8 daggers, nirvy leggings)

Then i DO know what i'm talking about. I'm not confusing anything here. This comparison is based on the SAME refine on different daggers. Only when, like i stated before, refine nirvy daggers MORE then my R8 daggers WITHOUT the nirvy leggins (since i had to choose either daggers OR leggings), then i would indeed increase my aps more (more -int) , increase DPH (higher refines) and thus also my DPS.

In calculations you have to look at the endresult, not just the speed or damage/hit. By keeping my R8 daggers and go for leggings i increased the endresult, and that is what matters most for me.

But this is in fact off topic, the topic was about people only asking a high aps, you can claim having 4 aps but have lower dmg, thus in fact the whole asking for aps is kinda pointless. You can carry nirvy daggers and still do less damage then someone with R8 daggers who only has 3.33 aps.

Zenorx - Harshlands · April 2011

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Then again, if you have a +10 Barrier Thorn: Nirvana, what is the point of doing nirvana?

That has got to be the dumbest thing ive heard all day........

Aneurysmal - Heavens Tear · April 2011

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

Highest DPS squad does not include a Cleric at all.

Never been in a squad that kills every boss in 5-15 secs without a cleric (not the 99 key boss). APS Barbs rarely seem to Devour/Penetrate. However, you're right, wouldn't include a cleric if the barb did his job.

In any case people severely underestimate the effect of debuff/support classes.

//athan - Dreamweaver6 · April 2011

dont underestimate debuffs,

one of the fastest squad i ever been was : 2 sins +12, bm +11 demon hf, me +10 demon hf, and a sage barb non aps ;
this barb also have a demon fist barb +10, and it went faster with his sage barb non aps cause of the debuffs

even a veno is nice with demon ironwood scarab, if it procs = pwn

i was a wiz before, and when i needed money i was going with friends in slow runs,
now everyone wants aps aps aps even for TT 1-2 or 1-3 wtf?
its not all about aps, but about dps and game knowledge, already went in some "good" squad but in the end it was slow.
the best thing is coordination on vent, (or at least squad chat) and one person at a time use mire, other frenzy, one debuff subsea hf
its also how the squad looks like, full sin squad would be fail, full bm would be fail, full aps barb would be fail

if one of my guildmate need nirvana and asl for it, ill go with him, dont mind help wizard if they are nice, makes our faction stronger for tw
*points at Eziquil,hexOmega and OMalley b:thanks*

EDIT : WOW my 1st post QQ my name glitch on forum too

TigerLily - Lost City · April 2011

Mitachi - Dreamweaver wrote: »

psh **** a pure 4.0-5.0 aps squad my faction went on a all cleric run nirvana, took them 1hr 30min, wish i was there but i went afk and missed it >.<

LOL thats awesome XD

I done a few (almost) full wizard parties back when the instance just opened. Took like 40-50 minutes each run but bosses didn't seal back than. The wizard with lowest refine on weapon had to be Undine Strike slave for the others and heal the tanking wiz with Morning Dew. Everyone raged when 3rd boss burned their precious MP b:chuckle Distant shrink around the chests was pro to. Wizards are so cute and funny in pve when they jump around

Nael - Dreamweaver · April 2011

My Sin with +5 G13 Nirvy daggers out damages +10 TT100 BMs (ones that don't know how to glitch GS or DBB anyway), simply because I can glitch Power Dash before sparking, do it again mid spark for perma 75% crit rate, and still have enough time left to spark again. Not only that I can save my chi skills not to spark to pretend I can permaspark but use for Subsea Strike, or as a back up source in an event I fail glitching Power Dash. I can also spam mire or frenzy on my genie for more damage output, instead of wasting energy on Cloud Eruption. Because omfg, 5 aps is the best way to obtain chi, and I have all those other sources of chi to use for various things instead of using them to keep myself sparked.

For that reason I would never consider going R8. R9 maybe, but not R8.

Joshcja - Sanctuary · April 2011

squads ask for APS and weapon link. this means they know how fast you hit AND how hard you hit aka your real DPH and your real APS that they can use to *gasp* find your real DPS. OP is a tard who cant read or preform basic logics.

/ thread

Sthenith - Dreamweaver · April 2011

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

squads ask for APS and weapon link. this means they know how fast you hit AND how hard you hit aka your real DPH and your real APS that they can use to *gasp* find your real DPS. OP is a tard who cant read or preform basic logics.

/ thread

Lmfao, you're the real moron here.

"What aps you have ?"
"4"
"link weapon"
*links nirvy +10*
*thinks to himself : what a ******, i only have 3.33 since i have NO nirvy leggings, NO lionheart neck/bel ..whatever, and the tard thinks i got awesome dmg*

You can NOT calculate anything about real dmg output unless peeps are completely honest OR if you use an eye of observation, or do you really believe all sins have 4+ ? I've seen some "stating" 4+ aps while you can see with an eye that clearly they haven't....
or do you really look all of em to see what gear they have, how much it's refined and what sharding they use ?

Second, before calling someone a "tard", do the right math :

for SIN : REAL DPS = total dex, aps and Weapon dmg/sharding combined.

All you focus about is what you 'think' someones real damage output is. Try to use your brain a bit more : do you even realize that their accesories and their BUILD (vit/dex) DOES make a difference ? Or are you just plain stupid like you seem to be ?

p.s. : i know of certain sins that have points into vit, decreasing their own dmg. Try to calculate that dimwit.

Tojop - Dreamweaver · April 2011

I know what gear a sin needs to have 5 aps. I also look at everyone's gear in the first room as we're arriving, or while we fight first boss. I have never seen someone actually lie about their attack rate just to get into a squad, that would be hilariously outlandish.

Edit: just read the rest of your post, and yes, I do look at what their refines are. If they have everything refined less than I do, and have more hp (also, has never happened), I can assume they're stacking vit. Every single 4-5 aps sin I have seen has had insane dps, the 4 aps sins beating out most other classes, and the 5 aps sins being the premier DDs on the server.

Xarathox - Dreamweaver · April 2011

Tojop - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I know what gear a sin needs to have 5 aps. I also look at everyone's gear in the first room as we're arriving, or while we fight first boss. I have never seen someone actually lie about their attack rate just to get into a squad, that would be hilariously outlandish.

Edit: just read the rest of your post, and yes, I do look at what their refines are. If they have everything refined less than I do, and have more hp (also, has never happened), I can assume they're stacking vit. Every single 4-5 aps sin I have seen has had insane dps, the 4 aps sins beating out most other classes, and the 5 aps sins being the premier DDs on the server.

I've never lied about my APS. I have however answered those 4 APS+ shouts in WC just for giggles.

Random Jackass: nirvy LF 4+ APS DDS!

Me: 0.91 APS sage barb.

Random Jackass: Sorry, 4+ aps

Me: Lawl, you don't know what debuffs are, do you?

Random Jackass: those r useless

Me: b:laugh

Rawrgh - Raging Tide · April 2011

Aneurysmal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Never been in a squad that kills every boss in 5-15 secs without a cleric (not the 99 key boss). APS Barbs rarely seem to Devour/Penetrate. However, you're right, wouldn't include a cleric if the barb did his job.

In any case people severely underestimate the effect of debuff/support classes.

Those are some bad barbs then.

Granted I'm too lazy sometimes, but I usually open every boss with, triple spark > devour > switch to normal > cancel onslaught > pew pew with claws.

Lmfao, you're the real moron here.

"What aps you have ?"
"4"
"link weapon"
*links nirvy +10*
*thinks to himself : what a ******, i only have 3.33 since i have NO nirvy leggings, NO lionheart neck/bel ..whatever, and the tard thinks i got awesome dmg*

You can NOT calculate anything about real dmg output unless peeps are completely honest OR if you use an eye of observation, or do you really believe all sins have 4+ ? I've seen some "stating" 4+ aps while you can see with an eye that clearly they haven't....
or do you really look all of em to see what gear they have, how much it's refined and what sharding they use ?

Second, before calling someone a "tard", do the right math :

for SIN : REAL DPS = total dex, aps and Weapon dmg/sharding combined.

All you focus about is what you 'think' someones real damage output is. Try to use your brain a bit more : do you even realize that their accesories and their BUILD (vit/dex) DOES make a difference ? Or are you just plain stupid like you seem to be ?

p.s. : i know of certain sins that have points into vit, decreasing their own dmg. Try to calculate that dimwit.

1. 99 times out of 100, the higher aps has the higher dps.

2. Stop saying "nirvy" you sound like a 4 year old.

3. Who the hell gets a nirvana weapon without at least getting lionheart ornaments. They're the price of "maybe" 20 raptures. Not every squad should be forced to assume that the person is a moron.

4. Almost everytime the person with the higher APS is the one who has the higher refined weapon, more likely to have level 11 weapon mastery, better gems, etc.

5. Why are you even ******** about world chat squads anyways, world chat squads only exist to be trolled.

Dakuken - Dreamweaver · April 2011

5APS Nirv squad needs 2 more DDs, pm class/APS please!!

Oh.. woops, wrong chat

Joshcja - Sanctuary · April 2011

Sthenith - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Lmfao, you're the real moron here.

"What aps you have ?"
"4"
"link weapon"
*links nirvy +10*
*thinks to himself : what a ******, i only have 3.33 since i have NO nirvy leggings, NO lionheart neck/bel ..whatever, and the tard thinks i got awesome dmg*

You can NOT calculate anything about real dmg output unless peeps are completely honest OR if you use an eye of observation, or do you really believe all sins have 4+ ? I've seen some "stating" 4+ aps while you can see with an eye that clearly they haven't....
or do you really look all of em to see what gear they have, how much it's refined and what sharding they use ?

Second, before calling someone a "tard", do the right math :

for SIN : REAL DPS = total dex, aps and Weapon dmg/sharding combined.

All you focus about is what you 'think' someones real damage output is. Try to use your brain a bit more : do you even realize that their accesories and their BUILD (vit/dex) DOES make a difference ? Or are you just plain stupid like you seem to be ?

p.s. : i know of certain sins that have points into vit, decreasing their own dmg. Try to calculate that dimwit.

player info + actual knowledge of game = easy to see if they lie. a vit/ str for HA helm sin will still out DPS an equally geared and stated char of any other type since your main stat acounts for mabey 1/3 of your total sparked base damage, oh no they lost 1/4 of 1/3 of their damage that makes their +10 5 aps worthless!!!

Or are you blind to? Because really its not hard to check gear.

Also yes, attempting to tell one of the most math obsessed bm's in the forum how dps works is smarts nubcake. DPS formula = ((Weapon+adds+rings+shards+level)(1+(dex/150)+mastery+other multilpiers))x(APS x attack level x (critrate x wolf emblem)) for sparked dps add spark multiplier to the labled section and up attack rate then multiply the formula by 15/18 or 5/6 for your "real" dps if your CCing PD or useing water buff tack on .4 per CC per spark cycle and 1 per water buff to the numerator of the DPS multiplierfor example a sin that CC'd 2x PD and cast water buff once would have 16.8/18. Treat skills such as RDS as cast+chan/ frequency used per spark cycle and add them in the same way as CC's. For buffs that last less time than your spark add on the average gain over time to the formula in the apropriate spot, PD as 8 seconds would be crit gained x 8/15 for example for a mid spark cast. 3/15 for a pre spark cast

Weapon+aps is an easy way to see the base gear and a guesstimated damage output for the player, ofc its not perfect but its certainly not worth the amount of butthurt your portraying. No system is foolproof (litteraly in this sense) but it does serve as a basic screen for invites.

if tard offends you heres some options for ya. tard, slowbie, sally who wants to kiss all the boys but has the hiv so nobody will touch her, clownfish, idiot, spawn of yulk, failed coathanger. Take your pick and i'll use it for you till you actually earn the right to your big person name.

Sthenith - Dreamweaver · April 2011

Who the hell gets a nirvana weapon without at least getting lionheart ornaments. They're the price of "maybe" 20 raptures. Not every squad should be forced to assume that the person is a moron.

Seen a sin run with nirvana daggers and cube ornament. Strange things do happen.

Olbaze - Sanctuary · April 2011

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

Also yes, attempting to tell one of the most math obsessed bm's in the forum how dps works is smarts nubcake. DPS formula = ((Weapon+adds+rings+shards+level)(1+(dex/150)+mastery+other multilpiers))x(APS x attack level x (critrate x wolf emblem))

You're missing a +1 from there. And as far as I'm concerned, you're over-complicating it and making it look like a huge mess. All it really amounts to is:
DPS = Base * Multipliers * Attack Speed

Also, you don't just multiply damage by attack level. It's 1+(attack level/100) as a multiplier assuming you're against mobs.

And generally speaking, your "other multipliers" is equal to "buffs", such as the barb damage buff.

Weapon+aps is an easy way to see the base gear and a guesstimated damage output for the player, ofc its not perfect but its certainly not worth the amount of butthurt your portraying.

And yet you still have people asking for aps from assassins. Wonder how much bull**** will I get for being a Sage? Or more like not being a 4.0 Sage.

Seen a sin run with nirvana daggers and cube ornament. Strange things do happen.

People have different priorities. Some might be able to settle for 3.33 or 4.0 aps. Or maybe they already had all other -intervals and therefore had the degree of freedom to take off one -0.05, such as cape, ornaments, tome, boots or leggings.

Joshcja - Sanctuary · April 2011

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

You're missing a +1 from there. And as far as I'm concerned, you're over-complicating it and making it look like a huge mess. All it really amounts to is:
DPS = Base * Multipliers * Attack Speed

Eh figured i'd tack on the base formula since it dosent seem to know it

Also, you don't just multiply damage by attack level. It's 1+(attack level/100) as a multiplier assuming you're against mobs.

assumed that was kinda obvious since every other buff is reduced that way and added to 1 at the end of the multiplyer section

And generally speaking, your "other multipliers" is equal to "buffs", such as the barb damage buff.

buffs pots weapon procs such as zerk spark

And yet you still have people asking for aps from assassins. Wonder how much bull**** will I get for being a Sage? Or more like not being a 4.0 Sage.

I would turn you down for vana if a demon sin with the same gear asked in a heartbeat, hell if a demon sin with -.1 less interval and 1 lower refine asked i'd take em over you. nothing personal but demon is better at pve instances such as vana where kill speed is all that matters. I'll take that BP though

People have different priorities. Some might be able to settle for 3.33 or 4.0 aps. Or maybe they already had all other -intervals and therefore had the degree of freedom to take off one -0.05, such as cape, ornaments, tome, boots or leggings.

5.0 isnt the be all end all of pwi my sin will use use rank 8 daggers because i'm to lazy to refine over +7

*facepunches a kitten* you peoples posts made me do this. murderers

here have some blatently obvious facts stated as points. yes i realize some people havent read the basic class guides. and they earn a title off the list

Sthenith - Dreamweaver · April 2011

5.0 isnt the be all end all of pwi my sin will use use rank 8 daggers because i'm to lazy to refine over +7

People will choose out of necessity, do i spend cash on getting nirvana leggings or do i spend it on daggers which i can't even refine to the wanted/needed lvl ... Or do i use my cash for nirvana daggers instead of buying a Tome ....

It's players choices that make all the difference in the gameplay.

* wanted to insert some kind of insults here, but i realized you're not really worth lowering myself to your lvl*

Soeren - Harshlands · August 2011

I agree with you but don't you need to do nirvana to get the -0.10 int daggers to be 5 aps sparked?

Soeren - Harshlands · August 2011

Sthenith - Dreamweaver wrote: »

People will choose out of necessity, do i spend cash on getting nirvana leggings or do i spend it on daggers which i can't even refine to the wanted/needed lvl ... Or do i use my cash for nirvana daggers instead of buying a Tome ....

It's players choices that make all the difference in the gameplay.

* wanted to insert some kind of insults here, but i realized you're not really worth lowering myself to your lvl*

wow awesome insult: ''i'm not gonna lower myself to your level''. then why do you mention it? that would be only neccesary if that person insulted you (maby). ******

Decus - Dreamweaver · August 2011

Soeren - Harshlands wrote: »

wow awesome insult: ''i'm not gonna lower myself to your level''. then why do you mention it? that would be only neccesary if that person insulted you (maby). ******

Wow awesome necro.

darthknight76 · August 2011

Sthenith - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Seen a sin run with nirvana daggers and cube ornament. Strange things do happen.

i am one of those sin that ran nirvy with cube necklace+10 and guard of thundershock. If you understand about 5aps, you would know even without TT99 Lionheart ornament, you are still 5aps so long you have a -int tome. And those cube ornament and culti belt/Warsong or jungle belt make you more durable compare to TT99 ornament. The beauty about 5aps is that you can fight the boss continuous in spark form. It means when you are full spark, and you sparked, at the end of the 15sec you get back full spark. This does not occur with 4aps or less.b:pleased

SoniMax - Sanctuary · August 2011

asassin can't get into nirvana squads hmm that's probably how casters feel every day b:laugh

Nirvana squads

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