Nirvana squads

Sthenith - Dreamweaver

Ok, so what's the deal with the 4+ aps nirvana squads anyways ?

I see a LOT of people (mostly the same ones) Wcing for 4+ aps nirvana squads, and i still don't get how stupid some people are. High APS isn't required to do fast nirvana runs, DPS is.

The last runs i did (a few hrs ago) included 3 bm's (deicides), 1 veno , 1 cleric, my own sin. The runs went extremely well, fast and had no real hiccups (except for the odd death) and in the end we ALL agreed it was Fun & Fast.( and rewarding)

Now i see some asking in WC "Link weapon pls" ....? Wth is that all about ? Have they become moronic ?

You can link nirvy daggers +10 but that doesn't mean anything. If you don't have a tome, nor TT99 gold or any other piece of -int, then one can link a +10 weapon as much as one wants. It doesn't change the fact that they suck in DAMAGE output.

High APS =/= High DPS. (for the morons : NOT equal) All depends on the totality of your gear.

Next thing you know they're gonna use an "Eye of observation" and when your damage index isn't above 20K you're not getting in.....

Also, instead of waiting for over half an hr to get a squad together, in that time "normal" squads would already have done runs...so by waiting for those "precious" 4+ aps toons, you lose more time then all the rest, meaning they earn more.

But i guess they don't think logically bout that either.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

High aps, 99% of the time, means high DPS. The only way it wouldn't is if you have like +1 lunar claws with no shards.

Toxie - Dreamweaver

Sthenith - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Ok, so what's the deal with the 4+ aps nirvana squads anyways ?

I see a LOT of people (mostly the same ones) Wcing for 4+ aps nirvana squads, and i still don't get how stupid some people are. High APS isn't required to do fast nirvana runs, DPS is.

The last runs i did (a few hrs ago) included 3 bm's (deicides), 1 veno , 1 cleric, my own sin. The runs went extremely well, fast and had no real hiccups (except for the odd death) and in the end we ALL agreed it was Fun & Fast.( and rewarding)

Now i see some asking in WC "Link weapon pls" ....? Wth is that all about ? Have they become moronic ?

You can link nirvy daggers +10 but that doesn't mean anything. If you don't have a tome, nor TT99 gold or any other piece of -int, then one can link a +10 weapon as much as one wants. It doesn't change the fact that they suck in DAMAGE output.

High APS =/= High DPS. (for the morons : NOT equal) All depends on the totality of your gear.

Next thing you know they're gonna use an "Eye of observation" and when your damage index isn't above 20K you're not getting in.....

Also, instead of waiting for over half an hr to get a squad together, in that time "normal" squads would already have done runs...so by waiting for those "precious" 4+ aps toons, you lose more time then all the rest, meaning they earn more.

But i guess they don't think logically bout that either.

That could be for the fact that although people may be 3.33/4.0/5.0, they haven't put **** into their gear and so are a terrible DD. I had someone claim to be 4.0 join our squad with rank 8 daggers unrefined and unsharded, and refuse to rib or subsea. They ended up being 2.22 or whatever is below 2.86, not a big deal but they wouldn't pull their weight.

Also agree with the rest of your post.

Sthenith - Dreamweaver

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

High aps, 99% of the time, means high DPS. The only way it wouldn't is if you have like +1 lunar claws with no shards.

No, it's not 99% of the time.

As a basic EXAMPLE :

http://pwcalc.com/3e8ac9b6c148ab81 = 36268 DPS

http://pwcalc.com/ce3c0157dfb04b03 = 45860 DPS

The only thing i changed was the lunar cape. With just 1 piece more, the R8 outdamages the nirvy daggers. This is oc a basic example, but it simply proves my point at a basic level : weapon means nothing if you don't have the rest of the gear, inluding refines and sharding.

So while you have 4 aps it doesn't mean you have more DPS.

Okeano - Harshlands

I've had a R9 archer using FC fists +1 to be 5 APS instead of his R9 bow +10. So yeah don't put too much hope in the IQ of general population.

Runemine - Dreamweaver

I know the feelin just **** em go with friends make your own squads what i had to do, No matter how much ya tell em its dumb and not to do it there gonna keep doing it trust me iv been tryin for months

And the link wep bit is to get best DD they can cause heck say ya get PM from 5.0 archer and a 4.0 BM the BM can easily out DD the archer if his wep better.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

Sthenith - Dreamweaver wrote: »

No, it's not 99% of the time.

As a basic EXAMPLE :

http://pwcalc.com/3e8ac9b6c148ab81 = 36268 DPS

http://pwcalc.com/ce3c0157dfb04b03 = 45860 DPS

The only thing i changed was the lunar cape. With just 1 piece more, the R8 outdamages the nirvy daggers. This is oc a basic example, but it simply proves my point at a basic level : weapon means nothing if you don't have the rest of the gear, inluding refines and sharding.

So while you have 4 aps it doesn't mean you have more DPS.

And you took of the lunar cape.... why? That makes no sense.


Not to mention that 99% of the time, the person with the higher APS will have a better refined weapon, better shards, etc.

ACLucius - Archosaur

Sthenith - Dreamweaver wrote: »

No, it's not 99% of the time.

As a basic EXAMPLE :

http://pwcalc.com/3e8ac9b6c148ab81 = 36268 DPS

http://pwcalc.com/ce3c0157dfb04b03 = 45860 DPS

The only thing i changed was the lunar cape. With just 1 piece more, the R8 outdamages the nirvy daggers. This is oc a basic example, but it simply proves my point at a basic level : weapon means nothing if you don't have the rest of the gear, inluding refines and sharding.

So while you have 4 aps it doesn't mean you have more DPS.

Be a little more reasonable though. For example, what I did was add TT80 rings to both, and kept the Lunar cape on both. After adding the DPS up (including taking crit into account for both, the Barrier Thorn came out on top by 7k damage. I also included Demon Dagger Devotion since yours didn't have it at all.

However, you also have to consider that while yours apparently does have more DPS at face value, it cannot keep sparked without using a skill in between, losing a little bit of time and decreasing the damage.

I'm not defending the APS craze we have in this game, but Rawrg is right, usually higher APS does mean higher DPS. If you are going to compare them though, do be fair and keep all the gear the same except for the weapon.

Kniraven - Lost City

Sthenith - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Ok, so what's the deal with the 4+ aps nirvana squads anyways ?

I see a LOT of people (mostly the same ones) Wcing for 4+ aps nirvana squads, and i still don't get how stupid some people are. High APS isn't required to do fast nirvana runs, DPS is.

The last runs i did (a few hrs ago) included 3 bm's (deicides), 1 veno , 1 cleric, my own sin. The runs went extremely well, fast and had no real hiccups (except for the odd death) and in the end we ALL agreed it was Fun & Fast.( and rewarding)

Now i see some asking in WC "Link weapon pls" ....? Wth is that all about ? Have they become moronic ?

You can link nirvy daggers +10 but that doesn't mean anything. If you don't have a tome, nor TT99 gold or any other piece of -int, then one can link a +10 weapon as much as one wants. It doesn't change the fact that they suck in DAMAGE output.

High APS =/= High DPS. (for the morons : NOT equal) All depends on the totality of your gear.

Next thing you know they're gonna use an "Eye of observation" and when your damage index isn't above 20K you're not getting in.....

Also, instead of waiting for over half an hr to get a squad together, in that time "normal" squads would already have done runs...so by waiting for those "precious" 4+ aps toons, you lose more time then all the rest, meaning they earn more.

But i guess they don't think logically bout that either.

If you believe in all of what you're saying, and I am not saying that you're wrong (yet), then why complain about it? If they're not people you want to be in squad with and it doesn't require them to be fast and productive then they don't matter to you.

However, for me it is totally worth it to spend even a full hour goofing off and WC'ing for a squad of 5 other good DD's. Once I have them I can do an entire NV run in less than 6 minutes flat.

We will usually do at least 10 which takes us about 1 hour & 15mins most including potty breaks and teleporting in.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

And you took of the lunar cape.... why? That makes no sense.

Not to mention that 99% of the time, the person with the higher APS will have a better refined weapon, better shards, etc.

Think about it not as "removing the cape" from the Nirvana, but "adding the cape" to the R8 setup. That way, I'd say it becomes more realistic, considering the cost difference between Barrier Thorn: Nirvana and Ocean Supreme Dagger.

Boogiepanda - Raging Tide

If they can afford NV daggers, chances are they can afford the refine it.

If the person can only afford R8/TT99 daggers, chances are they're poor[er] and cannot afford the refines.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Boogiepanda - Raging Tide wrote: »

If they can afford NV daggers, chances are they can afford the refine it.

If the person can only afford R8/TT99 daggers, chances are they're poor[er] and cannot afford the refines.

Then again, if you have a +10 Barrier Thorn: Nirvana, what is the point of doing nirvana?

Abstractive - Archosaur

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Then again, if you have a +10 Barrier Thorn: Nirvana, what is the point of doing nirvana?

Farm Shadow Ashura greaves and nirvy helm for the attack level and -int bonus ?

ILubby - Raging Tide

I agree with the OP, got nothing against APS, APS is good, nice and fast but when people ONLY want APS nowadays even for stupid TT2-3 runs -.-' ..it's becoming boring and killing the game, makes me wanna WC to form a regular nirvana squadb:laugh

KAZMOENEEK - Heavens Tear

Cry cry crikkky cry cry..I think you are all 15 year old snot nosed babies crying about aps still..come on pls.

If you have to take 1-5 hours to form a squad for nirvana I think you need to take the hint and just go do the standard tt,s and play pretend your in nirvana.

But most of the rest out there..you know the non aps peeps like wizzies and stuff are just as greedynon time to do a nirvana and if they hear of a squad with no aps...they will second guess and pass a nirvana up and most are exp stanks worried about being killed..LOOK IF YOU GO TO NIRVAVA..BE PREPAIRD TO DIE.

Tojop - Dreamweaver

Eh, I have my friends list full of high-refined 5 aps bms and sins. Ran nirvana last night with a 4 man squad and killed the second boss before he buffed himself, which is something most 6 person squads can't manage.

The reason I only go with high aps people is because my sin has extreme damage output. Why should I squad with a wizard, tank-build barb, mystic, and cleric if I just end up doing 70-80% of the squad's damage?

Now, at the far end of the spectrum, everyone is 5.0 and the only thing that matters is your weapon and refines (e.g. deicides vs. striking dragon). If I'm there, the only reason I would mess around with other people would be like, a faction run or something. I'm sure as hell not squadding with a random WC caster so he can piggy back on my profits, sorry b:surrender

Edit: For the record, there was a time when my sin was not 5 aps; I started doing Nirvana when I sparked to 2.86 aps, and had no problem finding squads. I proceeded to farm the rest of my gear instead of QQing about why better equipped people won't farm it for me.

TigerLily - Lost City

Full 5.0+10 or gtfo my Nirvana Party.

I'm not kidding actually. Most random squads use to settle for 4.0 and now its like 5.0 and link weapon plz to show its highly refined.

Than you get lazy and spoiled and only wanna join those 4-7 min runs. I dont even wanna waste my keys/time on slow 4.0 squads with clerics anymore. If bosses doesn't die in less than 1 spark, the party sucks. Its just to much work when you get sealed more than once b:avoid

I do agree that only looking at APS and not DPS wrong. A R9 sin at 2.86 will have higher DPS than a 4.0 BM for sure. Archers with Gorenox/Deicide has horrible DPS to, even if they are 5.0.

Doing NV fast is also about timing Domains, HF, debuffs etc. Not just APS.

HexOmega - Dreamweaver

>.> you can domain seals

and whats nirvana?

_Perses_ - Lost City

Ok let me put this gently....

APS = DPS. Thank you.


Now how fast was your run? less than 15 mins? How about 10? No?

Well THAT is why they want APS people. Seriously common knowledge 4.0+ squads are able to kill the bosses before they even have a chance to do what they are programmed to do. Seriously, the last NV squad I went into (last night) we did two runs. Total time? Less than 20 mins for both.
So please don't bich about having low APS, or w/e ur tring to QQ about cause you can't afford APS.

Mysticarella - Lost City

Higher APS does not mean Higher DPS, but it means more damage over time

take this for example:

aps - 1 hit - 1 sec - 5 secs
5 - 10000 - 50000 - 250000
2.86 - 15000 - 42900 - 214500

Even tho the 2.86 aps takes more damage with "1 single hit", the 5.0 aps take more damage over time.

*numbers are just for comparison, not actually real number....

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Mysticarella - Lost City wrote: »

Higher APS does not mean Higher DPS, but it means more damage over time

take this for example:

aps 1 hit 1 sec 5 secs
5 10000 50000 250000
2.86 15000 42900 214500

Even tho the 2.86 aps takes more damage with "1 single hit", the 5.0 aps take more damage over time.

*numbers are just for comparison, not actually real number....

Um, your example isn't really proving your point.

And btw, higher APS does NOT mean higher damage over time.

DPS = DPH * APS

That is their only relation.

Just because one setup has a higher APS than another does not guarantee that it's got higher DPS, because the other setup can have a higher DPH.

For example, compare Hook and Thorn to Ocean Supreme Dagger. The latter will have more DPS but lower APS.

Ok let me put this gently....

APS = DPS. Thank you.


Now how fast was your run? less than 15 mins? How about 10? No?

Well THAT is why they want APS people. Seriously common knowledge 4.0+ squads are able to kill the bosses before they even have a chance to do what they are programmed to do. Seriously, the last NV squad I went into (last night) we did two runs. Total time? Less than 20 mins for both.
So please don't bich about having low APS, or w/e ur tring to QQ about cause you can't afford APS.

Um, it's not about the APS, it's the DPS they get. Or are you seriously trying to tell me that a 5 aps Nirvana sin will out-dps a 2.86 aps R9 sin?

And high APS does not guarantee high DPS either. Hell, if you have 5 aps and 0 refines, you have pretty much **** DPS.

For example, I compared my future R8 setup to a friend's 4.0 aps BM and I came on top while having 2.22 aps.

Mysticarella - Lost City

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Um, your example isn't really proving your point.

And btw, higher APS does NOT mean higher damage over time.

DPS = DPH * APS

That is their only relation.

That's my calculation....let me rephrased:

APS | DPH |DPS(DPH*APS)|OVER 5 SECs
5.0 |10.000 |50.000 | 250.000
2.86 |15.000 |42.900 |214.500

all depends of the gear you are using to compare tho.

Dralighte - Harshlands

Mysticarella - Lost City wrote: »

That's my calculation....let me rephrased:

APS | DPH |DPS(DPH*APS)|OVER 5 SECs
5.0 |10.000 |50.000 | 250.000
2.86 |15.000 |42.900 |214.500

all depends of the gear you are using to compare tho.

Now, add DG, amp, reduce p.def and you'll see a huge difference

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

TigerLily - Lost City wrote: »

Archers with Gorenox/Deicide has horrible DPS to, even if they are 5.0.

I wouldn't say that.

Archers with an R9 ring out dps BMs who don't have an R9 ring...
With runes and wood pots you can even hold aggro over +10 g13 sins with +10 deicides.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Mysticarella - Lost City wrote: »

That's my calculation....let me rephrased:

APS | DPH |DPS(DPH*APS)|OVER 5 SECs
5.0 |10.000 |50.000 | 250.000
2.86 |15.000 |42.900 |214.500

all depends of the gear you are using to compare tho.

It's still not supportive of your point.

What your calculation shows is a higher APS leading to higher DPS. That, however, is not always true due to the nature of DPS.

Damage Over Time = DPS = DPH * APS

TheDan - Sanctuary

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

I wouldn't say that.

Archers with an R9 ring out dps BMs who don't have an R9 ring...
With runes and wood pots you can even hold aggro over +10 g13 sins with +10 deicides.

The rank 9 ring alone is a pretty small factor; it won't hold aggro over a pure str bm that knows how to dbb CC or a pure dex sin that knows how to power dash/condensed thorn CC. Rank 9 ring is pretty much just a garnet gem over cv rings. I consider the 60+ attack that archers can maintain 5aps with full rank 9 the main advantage in dps, whereas sins and bms have no benefits from r9 set dps wise.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

TheDan - Sanctuary wrote: »

The rank 9 ring alone is a pretty small factor; it won't hold aggro over a pure str bm that knows how to dbb CC or a pure dex sin that knows how to power dash/condensed thorn CC. Rank 9 ring is pretty much just a garnet gem over cv rings. I consider the 60+ attack that archers can maintain 5aps with full rank 9 the main advantage in dps, whereas sins and bms have no benefits from r9 set dps wise.

Lunar ring is 97 attack, R9 is 215. Thats 117 more phys attack which is more than a drakeflame. It basically turns a +10 weapon into a +11 weapon.

TheDan - Sanctuary

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Lunar ring is 97 attack, R9 is 215. Thats 117 more phys attack which is more than a drakeflame. It basically turns a +10 weapon into a +11 weapon.

What I mean is that it's small in comparison to the Attack level the R9 set gives, or the adds BMs/Sins get from masteries, cancel casts and attribute adding damage bonuses. 500 Dex will add like 5K phys attack for a sin, and 400 Str will add like 4K phys attack for a BM, cancel cast bonuses, weapon masteries etc.

Without first looking at someone's gear, if I see archers pulling/holding aggro off a BM or sin, I'm more likely to assume that it might have been because the archer had significantly better gear (rank 9 attack levels would definitely count as significant, I don't think a R9 ring would be considered significant enough alone to pull/hold aggro off an equal geared BM/Sin that knows how to CC), or that the BM/Sin had significantly worse gear.

Celestyna - Heavens Tear

Tojop - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The reason I only go with high aps people is because my sin has extreme damage output. Why should I squad with a wizard, tank-build barb, mystic, and cleric if I just end up doing 70-80% of the squad's damage?

Now, at the far end of the spectrum, everyone is 5.0 and the only thing that matters is your weapon and refines (e.g. deicides vs. striking dragon). If I'm there, the only reason I would mess around with other people would be like, a faction run or something. I'm sure as hell not squadding with a random WC caster so he can piggy back on my profits, sorry b:surrender

Edit: For the record, there was a time when my sin was not 5 aps; I started doing Nirvana when I sparked to 2.86 aps, and had no problem finding squads. I proceeded to farm the rest of my gear instead of QQing about why better equipped people won't farm it for me.

this is my issue as well, my bm is 5aps, when i have went on random squads i end up not only being the tank, but doing at least 2/3rd the work. it just isnt worth the time I waste in them type runs. what is even worse is when there is some low aps bm in squad who cant even bother to hf so i have to do that too b:shutup

I have people ask me who i want to come on. I have several options but i wouldnt subject them to my psy, even though she is my main, unless i am doing her 99 key quests. Then I only doing nirvana on her just to do them then switch to bm(normally), cleric or veno which are more useful overall.

Mitachi - Dreamweaver

psh **** a pure 4.0-5.0 aps squad my faction went on a all cleric run nirvana, took them 1hr 30min, wish i was there but i went afk and missed it >.<

Aneurysmal - Heavens Tear

Highest Potential DPS (over 10 seconds) Aps Barb, Cleric, 2x APS sin, 1x Demon APS BM with Demon HF, 1x Veno

Highest Potential DPS (over 30 seconds) Aps Barb, Cleric 1x APS sin, 1x Demon APS BM with Demon HF, 1x Veno, 1x Seeker

Highest Potential for Boss to be dead in <5 seconds 1x Cleric, 1x Veno, 1x HF, 2x Wizards, 1x Sage Seeker

Highest Potential DPS (on non-ampable/hfable boss) APS Barb, Cleric, 3x APS sin, Seeker

Lets see, what classes are left out... Psychic (fair equivalent to Wizard in 3rd Equation), Mystic, Archer (which can also run good aps)