Want to go Demon.

Demon veno is so freaking annoying when you have sagey venos or clerics (or even barbs) who don't look out for your skills too. I mean, Ironwood has a 20% chance to kick, I get that, but if you see me channeling for it, please hold off. If it kicks it's definitely better than whatever you have got. Sage venos tend to reeeeally like the wood debuff from venomous (I like it too of course). I haven't looked at the Demon v. Sage skills for veno in ages, mostly because it's moot point now, but back when demon was the "hip" way to go for veno a lot (and I do mean a lot) of squads wanted a 99+ demon veno to have D. Para Nova. It stands in pretty good for the BM's HF, but the debuff only catches when it seals the mobs (still works on bosses, but doesn't seal). Surprisingly enough, Demon SS has saved my bum quite a bit. The bonus only lasts 6 seconds but sometimes that really all you need. Quite a few people have a preference to Demon Bramble.

Mmm, I'll write more when I think of more. Demon Lending is a nice skill. Once you get one spark you can start using it on yourself. It's quite handy. The Demon/Sage versions both have a 15 second cooldown and seem equally nice (but I do like giving myself a spark sometimes lol).

**DISCLAIMER** I don't hate sage venos. I know if I don't say this I'll probably catch some serious flak. I don't hate 'em. I just don't particularly care for them. I see more of them now than demon venos and most of them tend to be noobish.

ColdSnow - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Edit: And as for bramble..well as i seen noone cares about demon or sage version.

really? maybe that's a post-89 thing, because i almost always get thanked for brambling random melee players. getting more reflect out of demon bramble seems like a nice bonus to give a squad.

i'm not really sure how hard a time i'll have building chi once lending hand's cooldown gets cut to 15 seconds. right now, with it at a minute, i've usually got more sparks than i know what to do with. i do note that most demon veno skills get their cooldowns reduced, so even if a demon can't spam venomous+master li's, they should still be able to use more skills more often and gain chi that way.

(i haven't decided which way to go yet. i have twenty levels still to go, so i'd be silly to cast it in stone this early. but i confess, i'm leaning heavily towards demon at this point.)

Sage has it's perks, and there are a few sage skills that I envy, but I have no regrets on going demon.

I've been channel obsessed since level 42 when I first got my Wheel of Fate. Most demon skills have a reduced cooldown time which meshes nicely with that.

As for debuffs, yes, people overwriting Demon Ironwood can be annoying. However, as with most things, communication is the key. I run with a lot of seal happy clerics and barbs who Devour instead of Flesh Ream. A barb's Devour has a higher decrease than Sage Ironwood does, so it's good if theirs is the one used instead. Clerics have the same percentage as Sage Ironwood. So really as sage, you're maintaining the same or lower debuff as other classes. With Demon Ironwood, I just cast it after someone else's debuff has been cast. If mine proc's, the boss's p.def plummets. If it doesn't, who cares? The debuff is there anyway and a stronger one has not been overwritten. So, if you run with people who debuff a lot and/or use Vent/TeamSpeak/Skype, there's really nothing bad about Demon Ironwood. When solo'ing, spamming Ironwood, both myriads, and Demon Nova on every cooldown makes debuffs proc enough that I don't miss it landing 100% of the time.

Demon Nova is sexy. I love dropping it in RB's and on the third past map. But, there are two problems with it. The first is that it's random, so it's not something that I would count on, especially for pvp. (It can help, but have a backup plan.) In my experience, if your life depends on it proc'ing, odds are it won't. It's still incredibly useful. The other problem with it is that it doesn't stack with Heaven's Flame, nor can it overwrite nor HF overwrite it. Again, timing is key. Wait until HF wears off and then throw out a Nova to seal and amp them again. Great for RB. As far as people preferring Demon Nova vs. Sage Amp, it really depends on the situation. I'd prefer Sage Amp for Nirvana and Demon Nova for RB.

I actually really prefer Demon Bramble to Sage Bramble, and have had squadmates notice. First off, Demon Roar (barbs) and Alpha Male (genie) will overwrite any bramble you've already cast. So the extra duration doesn't really help you there. I'd rather have my bramble hit back harder while it's there. Also, I've tanked Nirvana on my sin under all three of Demon/Sage/Lvl 10 bramble and I can see a difference. People may not say much about it, but Demon definitely gives and edge, IMO.

The reduced cooldown on Demon Purge is kinda overrated, IMO. It's great for Cosmo in 2-2 and 2-3, but even with Demon Purge, you can't keep up with how much he buffs himself. In TW and group pvp, if you have multiple targets to purge, the time spent running from one target to the next will account for the cooldown of level 10, and if people are clumped together, you'd want Sage Purge for the AOE effect. For 1-1 pvp, how many times to you need to debuff a single target? Hit them once with Purge and then kill them. Don't wait for them to rebuff.

As far as chi building is concerned, I've never run out of chi, and I'm spark/nova/lending/myriad happy. Sure Sage's have an excess of chi, but the true kings of chi anymore are sins, not venos.

Demon Venomous is wonderful fun for obvious reasons. The book only cost me 100k.

The Summer Sprints are equal in my mind. Immunity is great if you know something is coming but purify is better for nastier debuffs. Either effect can be replicated with genie skills/apoth.

I used to really envy Sage Soul Degeneration, but take along an archer or a sin with sage Rib Strike or a Deicide wielder and you've got the same effect (or close to it). It's dead useful if you're solo'ing, but you're still going to be spending a fair amount of time on bosses. Bosses in Nirvana are immune to that too, so Demon Soul Degeneration has a slight edge on the bosses that aren't amp'able there.

Sevas - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Bull****! Sage version has a 25% chance to cast without consuming Spark. It DOES NOT give back 30 chi. So whatever you think you have is bull. I can give two sparks at the cost of one with exact same cooldown as a sagey, which also means I can cast on myself to get sparks (still need the first spark to work).

That's a crock of **** too. Demon amp is just as good and I have seen sagey venos use amp and they don't get an additional debuff with it, not that I've seen. So my amp is just as good as any sagey's.

Lending Hand is definitely a good skill. It's very nice to use on yourself, barbs love it (provided they're the ones really tanking) and clerics. Anyone who doesn't care about bramble is really missing out. Bramble is our only buffing skill and a pretty good one at that. If you're going to take some hits better to wear the demon one than the sagey one, which only gets an extra five minutes and no reflection increase.

Yes, sagey soul degen is nice, but amp is moot point. A long time ago, and I can't remember if it was on these forums or the Ceasar forums, but there was a very good discussion over D. vs S. venos. Amp was thoroughly pulled apart and they are basically even between the two cultis. The only sage skill I like is the soul degen, the others weren't worth it to me.

I dont really get your argument with "give not back" chi?
I think you need to read the Sage Skills again, cause Master Li GIVES 100% 50Chi and Sage Venom has a 20% Chance to give 30 Chi (so basicly same as Lending Hand). So if we asume that Sage Venom and Demon Lending hand works, both will get one more spark. If we asume NEIHER of them works, Sage still gets 60 Chi with (50Chi of Master + 10 Chi of Venom).

ColdSnow - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I dont really get your argument with "give not back" chi?
I think you need to read the Sage Skills again, cause Master Li GIVES 100% 50Chi and Sage Venom has a 20% Chance to give 30 Chi (so basicly same as Lending Hand). So if we asume that Sage Venom and Demon Lending hand works, both will get one more spark. If we asume NEIHER of them works, Sage still gets 60 Chi with (50Chi of Master + 10 Chi of Venom).

If you read my post I had copied and pasted directly from ecatomb what the site says about the skill. It doesn't give you 30chi or 50chi when you cast it. It just says it has a 25% chance to cast without consuming one of you sparks. The celestial techniques don't count because everyone knows about them and everyone gets the same ones. I'd still prefer my Demon Venomous debuff to extra chi. I can build chi equally fast with my skills too.

What a wasteful discussion.

Go here: http://www.ecatomb.net/pwi/skillpwi.php -decide for yourself.

Bull****! Sage version has a 25% chance to cast without consuming Spark. It DOES NOT give back 30 chi. So whatever you think you have is bull. I can give two sparks at the cost of one with exact same cooldown as a sagey, which also means I can cast on myself to get sparks (still need the first spark to work).

She said VENOMOUS SCARAB, it really isn't that hard to read |:

Spliffany - Lost City wrote: »

but u do know that the reflect doesn't work in "open world" pvp, right? b:chuckle it works in cube of fate, in the tournament event and in tw though.

obvi....

however if it ever became open map pvp functional again, the sin problem would be pretty much over.