Want to go Demon.

TattooAngel - Archosaur

Hey guys, I've been training my veno since forever. She's my main, and really my favorite character out of the ones I have. I know I'm about 8 levels away, but I was wondering what the pros and cons of demon are. I'm an arcane robe veno (my stats are a little different though because I was light armored at first) and I would like to go demon. Why demon you ask? There's so many sage venos and no one else I know has tried it. I was wondering if anyone here has ever gone demon and what your experience with a demon veno was like.

SeaStorm - Heavens Tear

Guess it depends on the server...I usually end up with more demon venos around me vs sage.

Went sage so can't give you the info. Then again when I went sage, sage was the rare bird and I got a lot of O.O looks.

Would highly suggest you sit down and look at the skills sage vs demon and compare them to how they would fit your play style. Do you actually like what the skill "bonuses" give for the path you want to embark on etc.

TattooAngel - Archosaur

I looked over quite a few of the skills and demon does look a little nicer to me. There are a few skill bonuses I would perfer over sage.

Lol. In my server it's the exact opposite. Almost every veno I know of has gone sage.

IzzyLilBunny - Heavens Tear

That's kinda weird seeing you're from Archosaur O.o. My veno on there is demon and most of the venos I know from my guild at the moment are also demon. There isn't an exact answer to your sage/demon question though as for veno it's preety much what you like more, both work preety well with veno imo.

Sevas - Heavens Tear

Demon veno is so freaking annoying when you have sagey venos or clerics (or even barbs) who don't look out for your skills too. I mean, Ironwood has a 20% chance to kick, I get that, but if you see me channeling for it, please hold off. If it kicks it's definitely better than whatever you have got. Sage venos tend to reeeeally like the wood debuff from venomous (I like it too of course). I haven't looked at the Demon v. Sage skills for veno in ages, mostly because it's moot point now, but back when demon was the "hip" way to go for veno a lot (and I do mean a lot) of squads wanted a 99+ demon veno to have D. Para Nova. It stands in pretty good for the BM's HF, but the debuff only catches when it seals the mobs (still works on bosses, but doesn't seal). Surprisingly enough, Demon SS has saved my bum quite a bit. The bonus only lasts 6 seconds but sometimes that really all you need. Quite a few people have a preference to Demon Bramble.

Mmm, I'll write more when I think of more. Demon Lending is a nice skill. Once you get one spark you can start using it on yourself. It's quite handy. The Demon/Sage versions both have a 15 second cooldown and seem equally nice (but I do like giving myself a spark sometimes lol).

**DISCLAIMER** I don't hate sage venos. I know if I don't say this I'll probably catch some serious flak. I don't hate 'em. I just don't particularly care for them. I see more of them now than demon venos and most of them tend to be noobish.

ColdSnow - Dreamweaver

Sevas - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Demon veno is so freaking annoying when you have sagey venos or clerics (or even barbs) who don't look out for your skills too. I mean, Ironwood has a 20% chance to kick, I get that, but if you see me channeling for it, please hold off. If it kicks it's definitely better than whatever you have got. Sage venos tend to reeeeally like the wood debuff from venomous (I like it too of course). I haven't looked at the Demon v. Sage skills for veno in ages, mostly because it's moot point now, but back when demon was the "hip" way to go for veno a lot (and I do mean a lot) of squads wanted a 99+ demon veno to have D. Para Nova. It stands in pretty good for the BM's HF, but the debuff only catches when it seals the mobs (still works on bosses, but doesn't seal). Surprisingly enough, Demon SS has saved my bum quite a bit. The bonus only lasts 6 seconds but sometimes that really all you need. Quite a few people have a preference to Demon Bramble.

Mmm, I'll write more when I think of more. Demon Lending is a nice skill. Once you get one spark you can start using it on yourself. It's quite handy. The Demon/Sage versions both have a 15 second cooldown and seem equally nice (but I do like giving myself a spark sometimes lol).

**DISCLAIMER** I don't hate sage venos. I know if I don't say this I'll probably catch some serious flak. I don't hate 'em. I just don't particularly care for them. I see more of them now than demon venos and most of them tend to be noobish.

Sorry i have to disagree here...sure, demon venos are nice as well but you are using wrong arguments.
Demon Version shines more due shorter cool down on skills and ofcourse demon summer sprint+Feral= 12se immune to any damage while moving.

And as for your argumentation with lending hand. it has a chance of 20% to transfer 2 sparks (cooldown 15sec)...now look at sage version Venomous Scarab ...20% chance to get 30 chi and has only 1 second cool down, so basicly Sage can spam Veno.Scarab and get chi, while you as demon have issues to transfer yourself 1 more spark.
so sage gets within less time more chi (Veno.Scarab+Master Li gives already one spark). So as for chi, sage wins. And as for costs...Sage Veno.Scarab book costs only 300k.
Nowadays squads dont want Demon Nova, they prefer rather sage amp, since it staks with HF and has more use for whole squad.

Either Sage or Demon, it both has good skills. But lending hand is defently not demon best skill. More like Summer Sprint + Feral, Nova and Ironwood.

I alone went for sage, due Souldegenration (reduces HP by 20%) and amp, since my job in squads is debuffing...its my playingstyle. Any Veno has to decide it for himself, either he wants to DD or support- i decided for support. If OP likes to DD then go for it...neither demon nor sage is wrong.

Edit: And as for bramble..well as i seen noone cares about demon or sage version.

LenieClarke - Heavens Tear

ColdSnow - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Edit: And as for bramble..well as i seen noone cares about demon or sage version.

really? maybe that's a post-89 thing, because i almost always get thanked for brambling random melee players. getting more reflect out of demon bramble seems like a nice bonus to give a squad.

i'm not really sure how hard a time i'll have building chi once lending hand's cooldown gets cut to 15 seconds. right now, with it at a minute, i've usually got more sparks than i know what to do with. i do note that most demon veno skills get their cooldowns reduced, so even if a demon can't spam venomous+master li's, they should still be able to use more skills more often and gain chi that way.

(i haven't decided which way to go yet. i have twenty levels still to go, so i'd be silly to cast it in stone this early. but i confess, i'm leaning heavily towards demon at this point.)

ColdSnow - Dreamweaver

brambe is one thing...but noone cares if its DEMON or SAGE version.

Since you still have 20 levels to go, just figure out which role you like to play more. Do you debuff more than DD? If no, then who cares and go for demon. cause feral+summer spring and ironwood are atually very nice skills that you might use more often than amp+soul.

Mauntille - Heavens Tear

Sage has it's perks, and there are a few sage skills that I envy, but I have no regrets on going demon.

I've been channel obsessed since level 42 when I first got my Wheel of Fate. Most demon skills have a reduced cooldown time which meshes nicely with that.

As for debuffs, yes, people overwriting Demon Ironwood can be annoying. However, as with most things, communication is the key. I run with a lot of seal happy clerics and barbs who Devour instead of Flesh Ream. A barb's Devour has a higher decrease than Sage Ironwood does, so it's good if theirs is the one used instead. Clerics have the same percentage as Sage Ironwood. So really as sage, you're maintaining the same or lower debuff as other classes. With Demon Ironwood, I just cast it after someone else's debuff has been cast. If mine proc's, the boss's p.def plummets. If it doesn't, who cares? The debuff is there anyway and a stronger one has not been overwritten. So, if you run with people who debuff a lot and/or use Vent/TeamSpeak/Skype, there's really nothing bad about Demon Ironwood. When solo'ing, spamming Ironwood, both myriads, and Demon Nova on every cooldown makes debuffs proc enough that I don't miss it landing 100% of the time.

Demon Nova is sexy. I love dropping it in RB's and on the third past map. But, there are two problems with it. The first is that it's random, so it's not something that I would count on, especially for pvp. (It can help, but have a backup plan.) In my experience, if your life depends on it proc'ing, odds are it won't. It's still incredibly useful. The other problem with it is that it doesn't stack with Heaven's Flame, nor can it overwrite nor HF overwrite it. Again, timing is key. Wait until HF wears off and then throw out a Nova to seal and amp them again. Great for RB. As far as people preferring Demon Nova vs. Sage Amp, it really depends on the situation. I'd prefer Sage Amp for Nirvana and Demon Nova for RB.

I actually really prefer Demon Bramble to Sage Bramble, and have had squadmates notice. First off, Demon Roar (barbs) and Alpha Male (genie) will overwrite any bramble you've already cast. So the extra duration doesn't really help you there. I'd rather have my bramble hit back harder while it's there. Also, I've tanked Nirvana on my sin under all three of Demon/Sage/Lvl 10 bramble and I can see a difference. People may not say much about it, but Demon definitely gives and edge, IMO.

The reduced cooldown on Demon Purge is kinda overrated, IMO. It's great for Cosmo in 2-2 and 2-3, but even with Demon Purge, you can't keep up with how much he buffs himself. In TW and group pvp, if you have multiple targets to purge, the time spent running from one target to the next will account for the cooldown of level 10, and if people are clumped together, you'd want Sage Purge for the AOE effect. For 1-1 pvp, how many times to you need to debuff a single target? Hit them once with Purge and then kill them. Don't wait for them to rebuff.

As far as chi building is concerned, I've never run out of chi, and I'm spark/nova/lending/myriad happy. Sure Sage's have an excess of chi, but the true kings of chi anymore are sins, not venos.

Demon Venomous is wonderful fun for obvious reasons. The book only cost me 100k.

The Summer Sprints are equal in my mind. Immunity is great if you know something is coming but purify is better for nastier debuffs. Either effect can be replicated with genie skills/apoth.

I used to really envy Sage Soul Degeneration, but take along an archer or a sin with sage Rib Strike or a Deicide wielder and you've got the same effect (or close to it). It's dead useful if you're solo'ing, but you're still going to be spending a fair amount of time on bosses. Bosses in Nirvana are immune to that too, so Demon Soul Degeneration has a slight edge on the bosses that aren't amp'able there.

Sevas - Heavens Tear

ColdSnow - Dreamweaver wrote: »

And as for your argumentation with lending hand. it has a chance of 20% to transfer 2 sparks (cooldown 15sec)...now look at sage version Venomous Scarab ...20% chance to get 30 chi and has only 1 second cool down, so basicly Sage can spam Veno.Scarab and get chi, while you as demon have issues to transfer yourself 1 more spark.
so sage gets within less time more chi (Veno.Scarab+Master Li gives already one spark). So as for chi, sage wins. And as for costs...Sage Veno.Scarab book costs only 300k.
Nowadays squads dont want Demon Nova, they prefer rather sage amp, since it staks with HF and has more use for whole squad.

Either Sage or Demon, it both has good skills. But lending hand is defently not demon best skill. More like Summer Sprint + Feral, Nova and Ironwood.

I alone went for sage, due Souldegenration (reduces HP by 20%) and amp, since my job in squads is debuffing...its my playingstyle. Any Veno has to decide it for himself, either he wants to DD or support- i decided for support. If OP likes to DD then go for it...neither demon nor sage is wrong.

Edit: And as for bramble..well as i seen noone cares about demon or sage version.

Bull****! Sage version has a 25% chance to cast without consuming Spark. It DOES NOT give back 30 chi. So whatever you think you have is bull. I can give two sparks at the cost of one with exact same cooldown as a sagey, which also means I can cast on myself to get sparks (still need the first spark to work).

That's a crock of **** too. Demon amp is just as good and I have seen sagey venos use amp and they don't get an additional debuff with it, not that I've seen. So my amp is just as good as any sagey's.

Lending Hand is definitely a good skill. It's very nice to use on yourself, barbs love it (provided they're the ones really tanking) and clerics. Anyone who doesn't care about bramble is really missing out. Bramble is our only buffing skill and a pretty good one at that. If you're going to take some hits better to wear the demon one than the sagey one, which only gets an extra five minutes and no reflection increase.

Yes, sagey soul degen is nice, but amp is moot point. A long time ago, and I can't remember if it was on these forums or the Ceasar forums, but there was a very good discussion over D. vs S. venos. Amp was thoroughly pulled apart and they are basically even between the two cultis. The only sage skill I like is the soul degen, the others weren't worth it to me.

ColdSnow - Dreamweaver

Sevas - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Bull****! Sage version has a 25% chance to cast without consuming Spark. It DOES NOT give back 30 chi. So whatever you think you have is bull. I can give two sparks at the cost of one with exact same cooldown as a sagey, which also means I can cast on myself to get sparks (still need the first spark to work).

That's a crock of **** too. Demon amp is just as good and I have seen sagey venos use amp and they don't get an additional debuff with it, not that I've seen. So my amp is just as good as any sagey's.

Lending Hand is definitely a good skill. It's very nice to use on yourself, barbs love it (provided they're the ones really tanking) and clerics. Anyone who doesn't care about bramble is really missing out. Bramble is our only buffing skill and a pretty good one at that. If you're going to take some hits better to wear the demon one than the sagey one, which only gets an extra five minutes and no reflection increase.

Yes, sagey soul degen is nice, but amp is moot point. A long time ago, and I can't remember if it was on these forums or the Ceasar forums, but there was a very good discussion over D. vs S. venos. Amp was thoroughly pulled apart and they are basically even between the two cultis. The only sage skill I like is the soul degen, the others weren't worth it to me.

I dont really get your argument with "give not back" chi?
I think you need to read the Sage Skills again, cause Master Li GIVES 100% 50Chi and Sage Venom has a 20% Chance to give 30 Chi (so basicly same as Lending Hand). So if we asume that Sage Venom and Demon Lending hand works, both will get one more spark. If we asume NEIHER of them works, Sage still gets 60 Chi with (50Chi of Master + 10 Chi of Venom).

Mauntille - Heavens Tear

ColdSnow - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I dont really get your argument with "give not back" chi?
I think you need to read the Sage Skills again, cause Master Li GIVES 100% 50Chi and Sage Venom has a 20% Chance to give 30 Chi (so basicly same as Lending Hand). So if we asume that Sage Venom and Demon Lending hand works, both will get one more spark. If we asume NEIHER of them works, Sage still gets 60 Chi with (50Chi of Master + 10 Chi of Venom).

If you're going to count those, count Demon Crush Vigor too. It has a 50% chance at giving you a spark. Being a demon veno doesn't mean you're going to be drained of chi. Plus, if you're talking about things done in combat, I very rarely see Master Li's getting used while someone is actually fighting.

D. Lending vs. S. Lending is moot. They act the same when you cast them on yourself and both are beneficial when casting on others (which is better is situational).

D. Amp vs. S. Amp is also moot. Sage is stronger while demon is longer. They average out to about the same.

Sevas - Heavens Tear

ColdSnow - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I dont really get your argument with "give not back" chi?
I think you need to read the Sage Skills again, cause Master Li GIVES 100% 50Chi and Sage Venom has a 20% Chance to give 30 Chi (so basicly same as Lending Hand). So if we asume that Sage Venom and Demon Lending hand works, both will get one more spark. If we asume NEIHER of them works, Sage still gets 60 Chi with (50Chi of Master + 10 Chi of Venom).

If you read my post I had copied and pasted directly from ecatomb what the site says about the skill. It doesn't give you 30chi or 50chi when you cast it. It just says it has a 25% chance to cast without consuming one of you sparks. The celestial techniques don't count because everyone knows about them and everyone gets the same ones. I'd still prefer my Demon Venomous debuff to extra chi. I can build chi equally fast with my skills too.

Desdi - Sanctuary

You also have to consider apothecary pots.
Surely, Sage Venomancers can get more chi for free but the issue here is the Venomancer to have chi when they need it, is it not? If they do, then who cares about the means they go the chi.

Anyway, to answer to the OP.
I'm Demon and I do miss a few things from Sage Venomancer but I'm very happy being a Demon. I fell in love with the skills since like..lvl60 when I first started reading about them and nothing made me change my mind.

The way I see it is Sage is defensive while Demon is offensive. Sage is mainly for squads and Demon is maindly for solo/PvP (I am not claiming that Sage is not good in PvP neither than Demon is not good in squads).

Also, Sage Venomancers make DDs "stronger for longer" but Demon Venomancers make them "gods for less time". Decide and pick which playstyle you prefer.
Also, with Demon you can go for a high ciritcal hit rate (due to Wood Mastery and Melee Mastery). I built my Venomancer like that and I think she pretty much makes up for the extra 5% from Sage Wood Mastery and Sage Noxious Gas (when I do criticals).

Some Demon skills that I very much like:
Forst Scarab: it freezes the target for 3 seconds. The skill is very strong and the DoT is powerful. One extra form of "stun" is always useful since Venomancers lack that kind of skills. Unlike Sage, it doesn't proc 100% but 95% is pretty high enough to make the skill reliable.

Befuddling Mist: even if you are an arcane Venomancer I find that skill useful. It's more powerful that lvl10 one and it has a chance to slow the mob for 3 seconds. It is useful as a runaway/survive skill when you don't have sparks or your other panic buttons are on cooldown ( I use it alongside Demon Leech)

Noxious Gas & Lucky Scarab: for the reduced cooldown. Yes it is not a huge difference but there is a difference and I very much enjoy it.

Blazing Scarab: the DoT lasts less time but that means it deals more damage in that less time so it is more useful since Blazing Scarab is a good skill when it lasts its full duration.


And of course the usual ones: Venomous, Amplify Damage, Summer Sprint, Bramble Guard etc. etc.

One last note: You have to consider what is happening around you and not just what the cultivations offer on their own since as your get closer to endgame other classes are able to perform debuffs similar to the Venomancers (eg. can also lower physical defence, can also lower max HP, can also purge etc. etc.)

TattooAngel - Archosaur

Thanks for the answers guys! =P

XDeath$trike - Dreamweaver

Demon veno is awesome.I wanted to go demon on my veno as well.
The reasons i like it is that you basically have a permanent 11 m/s speed with demon fox form,better pvp survivability because of demon summer sprint and i like the wood damage reduction from venomous scarab.
'Nuff said.b:victoryb:bye

tweakz

What a wasteful discussion.

Go here: http://www.ecatomb.net/pwi/skillpwi.php -decide for yourself.

SashaGray - Heavens Tear

the place where demon bramble makes the most difference is in pvp, not pve, outside of barbs tanking [?] bosses, the bramble difference on mobs/bosses is pretty negligable.

WaffleChan - Sanctuary

Bull****! Sage version has a 25% chance to cast without consuming Spark. It DOES NOT give back 30 chi. So whatever you think you have is bull. I can give two sparks at the cost of one with exact same cooldown as a sagey, which also means I can cast on myself to get sparks (still need the first spark to work).

She said VENOMOUS SCARAB, it really isn't that hard to read |:

Spliffany - Lost City

SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »

the place where demon bramble makes the most difference is in pvp, not pve, outside of barbs tanking [?] bosses, the bramble difference on mobs/bosses is pretty negligable.

but u do know that the reflect doesn't work in "open world" pvp, right? b:chuckle it works in cube of fate, in the tournament event and in tw though.

SashaGray - Heavens Tear

Spliffany - Lost City wrote: »

but u do know that the reflect doesn't work in "open world" pvp, right? b:chuckle it works in cube of fate, in the tournament event and in tw though.

obvi....

however if it ever became open map pvp functional again, the sin problem would be pretty much over.