Demon vs Sage: Because the math need to be done again?

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

Demon has a longer stun, a stun that never misses, it is easier to achieve max interval, it has a longer lasting Heavens Flame, it has the CC glitch for a short burst of 100% crit and it give you a turtleing ability with Demon Bell and the marrow of your choice.

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No, you just fully cast cyclone waseing 2+ seconds of spark

Unless yuor useing 2x phys orns and are fully buffed i sincerly doubt sage mag marrow equalizes your def

CC on GS can be done once per spark cycle at a .2 second loss for a 15% DPS gain over time counting the 50% proc rate

Sage spark redustion is virtually useless for reasons listed in the OP

Demon is simply better because it can do things sage cannot, the inverse cannot be said

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

Sage Cyclone Heel Lasts for20 seconds.



What you quoted had nothing to do with your post just now and you didn't address anything I said Sage could do that demon could not, you simply stated Demon could do everything sage could and more bt offered nothing to back it up.

You can cancel cast cyclone heel wasting 0.2 seconds minimum for the speed boost.

You listed sage spark reduction being useless because it is canceled by BB and because you believe that using 2 LA ornaments or LA gears cancels out it's bonus.

I am not always in blue ball, nor am I always wearing 2 99 pieces. Also, even if i were wearing 2 99LA orns, the reduction would only be wasted vs. a magic class which would just make me an idiot for wearing LA orns against a magic class. I don;t think either of those arguments hold any weight, especially since 5.0 or not, Sage Spark provides Sage BMs with a dmg reduction that Demon BMs can not replicate.


I will restate:
Here are some specific advantages to Sage BM that are not replicable by a Demon BM.
1. We have the ability to gain chi faster without striking at a target.
2. We conserve a lot of our chi with stuns that cost less or no spark at all.
3. We can maintain 5.0 for a longer stretch of time without stopping than a Demon BM.
4. We have stronger DPH attacks for quickly taking down low hp/def targets in a single strike.
5. We have potentially both more pdef and more mdef than a demon BM with the use of our marrows.
6. Demon BMs have no skill equivalent to our Sage Spark's dmg reduction, where as we do have equivalents to their speed increase.

Again, I am not claiming Sage is better than Demon.
I am saying that it has advantages in and of itself and that it is a viable choice with pro and cons.

"You listed sage spark reduction being useless because it is canceled by BB and because you believe that using 2 LA ornaments or LA gears cancels out it's bonus."..when did i say that? i said a well played demon will do 25% more damage makeing sage reduction worthless in pve since demon can kill faster with the same survivability. And wind sheild reduces a nice bit on a dex geni.

1. Who cares? CE, spark pots hitting an npc, etc will all chi you up faster than the 50 chi per minute Master Li's tech.
2.In combat demon wastes less chi due to longer/more accurate stuns gaining more time to beat the **** outa your target at 5.0 cycloned. Unless i'm fighting another demon BM i rarely have issues keeping my chi above 2 sparks.
3. Mildly useless in pve and in pvp if somones not dead in 15 seconds of heel your *** deep in aligators. Plus you can just CC before stun to waste 0 time
4. ...sage does have slightly higher DPH but even with the adds Bm spike damage suuuuuucks outside of a lucky zerk/crit or chain of crits/zerks. Sage has a lower base crit and a much lower proced crit. The only real use i've found for axe skill spam is vs rank psys since they're the only class you cant claw to death.
5. With demon bell spam and marrow? Your not going to top a demon bm's phys def. Also demon has the option to use 2 m def or rank 9 chest+belt for even more m def
6.Wind...sheild. Costs almost no geni stam and is just about the perfect pvp skill, and in pve sage reduction is pointless

Things demon can do that sage cant,

1.Stunlock with only 2 skills freeing geni for just about anything
2.Spike phys def more than once every 10 mins with bell instead of gaurd (reeeealy usefull after a purge or vs sins)
3. get a 100% crit rate
4. hit 5 aps with g 15 weapons/go full HA

only listed the things sage cannot do

I'm more than mildy amused that your trying to debate me with the points i listed for sage in the OP. Got anything the rest of the forums HAVENT heard 1000 times or is this thread just # on our forums thread count?

snakecrow wrote: »

Everything you listed can be done by both. I still have a 50 chi advantage over you returning to battle. I also consume less of it for my stuns. You can't argue with that no matter how much you try to say you don't care; or argue you have some other advantage that I don't. I will always have this as an advantage over you even if it isn't the particular advantage which is your preference. It is mine.

sage makes more chi, duh, however even without spark pots vs antistun spamers i rarely go under 2 sparks as a demon and am at 2.5-3 more often than not, why would i ever need more chi?

While i didn't specify I was primarily referring to TW, where you're an idiot imo if you break out fists to start stun locking one target in place. That's a whole other issue though. Either way you're incorrect, if we average it like you enjoy doing for Glacial Spike to mathematically prove a DPS advantage, then: My Drakes Bash averages at costing 25 less chi than yours and my Roar is a constant 10 chi less. 135 chi vs 100 chi, The 135 chi has 1.5 seconds longer stun. that's 12 vs 13.5 seconds. That gives you a 11.5% Time Advantage vs my 35% Chi Advantage. I would also like to have it noted that in order for you to have 5.0 with cyclone heel as you used in your example, you need to have 2 HH99LA pieces equipped which you stated in the original thread we were talking in multiple times was a disadvantage that was held by Sage BMs.

Already addressed the TW issue and that the cultivations are near equal there in the OP why are you bothering to tell me somethign i already know and stated openly? As for the chi issue GS proc can be counted as d DPS over time boost however the situations where you actually drake bash a target more than twice are pretty rare so the procs not a % gain its an all or nothign gamble, also 1.5 seconds = 7.5 hits at 5 chi each or 37 chi, considerably more than sages 25 average gain but thats assumeing the target lives through 7.5 seconds with a sucessfull GS CC. As for sage roar the chi reduction is nice but hitting for the full dureation its a 20 chi gain on top of the 120 chi gained from simply autoattackign through the stun. As for the LA i'm no heavy fanatic like MD and to a lesser extent Dan 5 aps cycloned is a huge edge in pvp. I use a 4 aps buld myself. However the gear restriction on LA is irksome and prevents hybrind TW/1v1 builds unless you sacrifice attack speed and chi gain, while demon can keep the best of both worlds.


You're calling it useless, which doesn't make it any less true. It is something a Sage BM can do that you can not. I don't find it useless.

It dosent matter and is actualy a gimp in squads, plus a demon CAN get the same boost with 4 aps base gear or simply have higher base stats on top of the 20-25% more damage with a heavy build

Again, your response does not change the fact. Sage BMs do have a higher DPH. It does have advantages in many situations. Many of our useful skills themselves have higher damage output than their demon counterparts.

Again stated this in the OP along with why it dosent matter


1. Alright I will concede that stacked Demon Bell for the first 15 seconds with demon pmarrow will provide more pdef than than the sage counterparts. This is only until that 15 second addition is over though. However Sage magic marrow will still allow for more potential mdef than a demon BM can have. Regardless of whether or not you feel the price is worth it, it is still the case.
2. I do not know why you keep saying that Demon BMs can use this or that armor piece as if Sage BMs can not. Yes we do need to have one more int bonus to achieve genie'less 5.0 than a Demon BM does however that does not mean we constantly need to have those on or that all Sage BMs even are 5.0. Whats worse is that in over half of your examples which attempt to prove Demon overall supremecy you imply the gears you say are a Sage BM's weakness in your Demon BM examples.

No short of a set of -.15 luck as HELL oht wrists a sage cannot have 4 aps base in full HA and for pve purposes relentles eats to much chi to be spammed, in pvp it means sacing a chance to use OI or a deffensive skill again creating a survivability gap. For the last time i said the weakness is a fixed gear set with no real room for customization makeing you an easy to target cookie cutter build that has to sacrifice attack speed or survival while a demon can keep both. 4 aps base is just about the ideal 1v1 or small group pvp build its only in TW or pve that full HA is worth the swap over. And yes i do assume the same gear for both toons because that leaves skill adds as the only real factor. Sage marrow guts your phys def, I have split armor and decently refined rings/belt and even with demon bell and marrow my phys def is lower than hell with marrow on, Your archer food with it on and if the TW DD's cant look at your boffs for the highly distinctive mag marrow sign then LC pvpers suck.

It only costs next to no genie stamina when at a very low level. To equal Sage spark's defense reduction it would need give or take 96 dex points. To be spammable you're going to need high magic as well. You have in previous arguments used this very same skill as an example to why demons are better because they could fill their genie slot or use the stamina on their genie toward something else. I throw the same back at you. This isn't an equivalent to sage spark, it is a waste. Sage BMs do not NEED a genie skill to achieve 5.0. As you stated yourself, Demon BMs DO need a genie skill however to try and equivocate our dmg reduction.

I did say a high dex geni no? Never said it was practicle just that YES it is not an exclusive advantage to sages. Simply put there is nothing a sage can do outside of master Li's tech and reduced cost roar that a demon cannot match or do better



I agree with all of the points you made about Demon. I am well aware they can do things Sage can not, just as I am aware Sage can do things Demon can not. Though technically speaking a Sage BM can go 5.0 without any LA pieces and with g15 weapons, sooo... you're not 100% correct. It just is very impractical and would be kind of pointless unless you can kill your target in under 8 seconds, and even then you could use a better genie skill with a lesser weapon and probably be more effective.

No, they cant every sage "advantage" can be gotten through gear swapping, geni skills, or apothacary pots with little or no sacrifice on the demons part while to get demon "edges" the sage must spend considerably more coin and will still sacrifice a nice chunk of attack/def to do so, and even doing so there are still demon advantages that a sage will never, ever, get.

Just thought i'd call you on the technicality though.

EDIT: oops wrong acc. I assume you know who this is though.

the purple text is quite distinctive

EDIT2: When i state: "Though technically speaking a Sage BM can go 5.0 without any LA pieces and with g15 weapons" I mean either/or, not both. Don't know if that needed clarification or not.

A sage could go 5.0 with a g 15 fist but they would need 2x .05 adds while a demon could reroll for 1/3 the cost cost for +20 attack levels, if your talkign about RC and blood powder then your totaly **** your def and can do so 45 seconds out of every 3 minute interval

There is no advantage whatsoever to going sage over demon, yes the skills are good but unless you a full axe bm (good luck with that) specilized only for TW then demon will be better in every way higher damage, better survival, and more effective control skills with similar chi gain and more possibilities endgame

Again because apperently i need to be redundant as hell to get the ideas through. Sage is not a gimp however it is either equal to or worse than demon in every aspect of pve and pvp. Yes a well played and well funded sage can be a threat but not nearly as much of a threat as a equaly geared and skilled demon. The only possible reason to pick the culti is bad judgement or a need to feel different...or clicking the wrong npc at 89. I can understand your need to defend your culti choice but math logic and in game experiance dictate that yes...sage sucks

side note: you have 7kish hp and mid refined ornaments judgeing from your calvin vid theres no way in hell you have equal phys and mag def without 2 phys orns and no way in hell you have it self buffed. i call bull****

(did i make it womanly enough to not bruise the sage ego's this time? if not i can throw in a training bra and some pictures of rugged yet sensitive firemen saveing kittens in gold thongs)

When did i ever so much as suggest that autoattacking with fists in tw was a good idea? Ever. No really think i've been pretty clear on my comparison of sage vs demon in map pk, small group pvp, and pve simply because the cultivations are even in TW for the reasons in the OP

A % chance is just that and can only be used as a statistic for relative chi gain/loss in a situation where you use the skill as many times as the % dictates, in the case of drake bash thats 4x. Even more so when the proc is all or nothing. For example, +1 chance with a mirage alone is 50% if i use only one mirage do i gain 50% of +1? No its all or nothing its not untill you stack multiple instances (again minimal here is 4x) that you can take the average, until then its just a 25% chance to save a spark. Notice i only count GS as a 15% boost in pve and nowhere else.

50 chi per minute on a class with abundant chi or the ability to suppress an arcanes 2 spark skills and 3 sparks in 1v1 pvp. If it was only Mon Zul vs Master Li the cultis would be even. However off a full stun demon bash gains a reliable amount of chi along iwth the ability to entirely end a fight...or a 25% chance to save a spark. On roar, a stun that will never miss that costs 35 chi vs a stun that can miss that costs 15, personaly almost all my deaths pre demon roar against other meles came from roar not procing. Its THE stun that defines our class and haveing it miss just isnt something any bm i know of expects or enjoys, and when the catch all stun fails it tends to get us killed. Or, you can save 20 chi and keep that chance to miss and die. With all the 5 aps toons and rank 8/9 stuns = def for any pre +10 bm everything else is just to stay alive till the damn things hit. I'd rather live or simply kill the oponent 5% more than keep 20 chi.

I said sage SPARK was a gimp in squads due as it overwrites BB. Sage cyclone tends not to matter in pve as you recast every spark, and in pvp 15 seconds is more than enough to get in a full 10 seconds of auto to break a charm as well as cast both roar and bash. Level 10 does the job just fine unless you need that extra time to CC before sage spark. Both cultis need to recast the skill before an attempted kill (with the exception of very rare scenarios vs kiteing stunbreak geni arcanes)

When did anyone here claim that bm's arent a gaint "kill it now" TW target. Roar/bolt = "Hey ulti these guys now" and nobody wants that. Again though i'm refering to mainly spall group pvp with this where you WILL have both damage types comeing at all times. Bm's are the annoyance class in TW, we're support. With rank jones and such you will die in TW a lot even with high refines pre rank 9 and full JoSD no matter what your culti is. TW is even however i dont really consider being somones buff and stun monkey as real pvp.

PvP kill mean absolutely nothing, you dont CC or stunlock better than the average sanctuary bm. Nobody pvp's on my server w/o high refines the vast majority of my kills where made in ganks against me by 2-3 players or those with gear +10-+12. Most of my armor is +5. Kill count pissing wars are useless, its nothing but a worthless number that people who cant back what they say with logic or math whip out like a damn e-peen. Though on a time per kill basis you have 4x my kills, i've done serious pvp for a month or so on a pve server?

Ah you upped your gear a bit, gratz. (I really did laugh irl when folks started flaunting calvin as a pro, He has +10 gear and got ripped apart by +5 armor bm's and mages who knew how to play. Repeatedly. Though admitedly he is improveing)


Sage Bm's can have higher mag def at the cost of phys def and aps. However its not like demon bm's lose marrow. Sages can make a little more chi but its not like demons fail to do so. sages can wait 5 seconds longer to cyclone but demon still gets the same speed boost. You have yet to list an advantage sage has that demon cannot get, and again most of sages compensation tactics have heavy drawbacks. ou can dump almost 2x the coin into a sage bm and still have lower mag/phys def, hp, and damage, and demon will STILL have edges that sage cannot get, ever

To simplify this grossly, there is a war, both sides have the same amout of fighters, the same types of guns, knives, tanks, planes though they are admitedly different brands with different manufacturing methods. However one side has nuclear ICBM's and can make their weapons at 1/2 the price. What side will win assumeing both are equally well led?

I am confrontational and aim for shock value and audacity in my posts. I'm a punk, get used to it. However if somone can prove me wrong i'm all ears, so if you want to end the endless headbutting and "No U!!" give me one skill or ability that sage has that demons cannot replicate at all. One. Forget the rest of the bull**** and we'll assume that sage and demon are magicly equal in everything but the unique skills the cultivations posess. Blow me away.

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

I'm going to be lazy and name 2 rather useless facts. The base advantages don;t seem to be good enough for you soooo....

Only a Sage BM through any possible self means (No having a veno throw you chi) can possibly throw off all five Blademaster 2-Spark skills in tandem one after the other in a row (pausing only briefly to use Master-Li's Technique).

Thats just chi gain all over again...and tbh a demon can do the same with a high enough STR CE geni and a CC on DBB instead of a full cast

A Sage BM has the absolute highest possible potential damage out of the two cultivations in the use of a single attack skill (Triple Spark, Bolt).

Rank 9 axe 3 spark+ skill combo would hit harder simply due to the higher range on axes and the ability to zerk+30 attack levels Both cultis can DPH highly in different styles, nothing new here

I'll reply to the rest of later (About to sleep).

10char.....

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

It is not possible to make a high enough str CE genie to replicate that as a Demon BM. Even Sage need one for it to be possible. Also you're incorrect on the second one because of bolt's modifier. Assume G15 Fists with nice adds.

EDIT: GF won't let me sleep =_= still too tired ot effectively debate atm though

the damage range on g 15 axes is almost 2x that of the claws to begin with and GoF+higher attack level do the rest, adding on the other 30 attack levels from full rank 9 set....its not even close

also theres no point to fireing off DBB even in your absolutely facepalm induceing example so only 8 sparks are needed instead of 10, getting a 2.01 spark CE geni and white tea isnt that hard.