Demon vs Sage: Because the math need to be done again?

Joshcja - Sanctuary

By request makeing this thread since the issue is beign brought up in forum again

Sage sucks:

Chi gain: At 5 aps cycloned demon will maintain more than enough chi and even the greifing skill is mroe usefull than master Li's wachamacallit sicne you can use it to effectivly keep Psy's and Wizzie from building chi to loloneshot you plus it takes a considerable amount of time to cast. If killed in TW...you have damn spark pots right? if not Bell>marrow>marrow>bell and you have roar chi happy hunting

So yes sages save sparks and make 50 more chi per minute but tbh i'm rarely under 2 sparks on a damn demon in pvp do you really need more?

Damage- DPS: Sage mastery gives 15% over demon in weapon damage, Demon DBB gives %%% weapon damage over sage DBB nuff said for fist DPH. Demon GS gives 100% crit for 5 seconds at a 50% chance for an average DPS boost fo 15%. Thats of course assumeing the sage is spamming wind sheild and its nto like the demon cant just frenzy with that geni chi. Oh and demon can hit 5 aps with g 15 claws/fists completly blowing sage away

No contest sage sucks for DPS

Damage:- DPH: With higher weapon adds on farstrine aeiolen blade and the mastery boost sage does have higher DPH than demon. However again demon's ability to CC GS for 100% crit in addition to mastery crit and such allows demon to easily chain crits for a higher chance of zerk+crit.

Sage hits harder DPH wise but demon can crit you 4 times in a row reliably take your pick

Survivability: Sage bell gives 15% more static def than demon, sounds great till you realize that this is 500-1k of phys def depending on ring refine whereas demon can spike phys def w/o marrowing via demon bell Sage is more usefull for other classes demon is more usefull for yourself. Marrows, Sage mag marrow = archer food plain and simple the huge phys def gimp and no ability to compensate makes sages horrifily vulnerable to any phys attacks...and theres 1 class in the entire game that has no heavy hitting phys skill. Sage phys marrow IS nice in pve but Pve is easy enough that its just overkill. Sutra, 10% for 2x healing isnt reliable enough to really matter.

Sage looks good on paper but is squishy as all hell in practice

Stuns: demon gets 100% stuns shorter cooldowns more stuns and longer stuns, sage gets a 25% chance to save a spark and a reduced roar cost b:chuckle

Demon wins hands down the removal of reliance on blade or OI is simply amazing allowing for less breaks in your attack chains and you will almost never have all disables on cooldown if the oponent genis out of lock

Sparks: Sage gets a 25% damage reduction that does nto stack with BB or with wind shield. Sage spark requires cyclone CC/ Wind Sheild, Demon deals 20-25% (5-10% due to DBB 15% with GS) more damage for more healing assumeing cyclone CC, and can save geni energy for spell cancleing assumeing wind sheild

Sage spark is damn near useless

Customization: Sage needs 2x LA for 5 aps this limits you to 1 build for pve whereas demon can go full HA or keep 4 aps base+ it opens a lot more gear paths for HOW you get your 5 aps

Coin: Sage will take 200-350 mill more coin to hit 5 aps and still be worse at farming than demon simply because demon kills faster at the same damage to healing ratio.

Lazyness: Demons can makj a spark macro and afk..and still hit as hard as a sage CC'ing heel. More than a sage letting it fully cast

Sage is only good for a pure axe rank 9 BM and even then demon is arguably better since sage gains chi when our class is already more than capable of makeing tons of chi and gains skill spam DPH when the most common method of killing is DPS.Demon gains horrificly OP procs a more balanced marrow bell set and more freedom with gear choices along with a sexy red spark.

In short, sage is usefull i suppose but it pales by comparison to demon simply becasue demon both allows entire new methods of play and improves on the existing style whereas sage conserves resources bm's already have in abundance.

less polite version: Sage sucks dirty herpes sore covered puss leaking goat balls that have been rotting in a ditch for 2 weeks marinateing in refuse. Demon is made of sex, win, and delecious moist cake. Come to the red side we're better than you

pflegefall69

overall agreed, but sage sparked bm can tank better in pve
(iam demon )

TheDan - Sanctuary

pflegefall69 wrote: »

overall agreed, but sage sparked bm can tank better in pve
(iam demon )

Not really, they are forced to wear LA to maintain 5.0, and their spark over-riding BB is fail. They also can't demon bell spark macro to spike increase p def for 15 seconds each triple spark.

In which case, if a sage does wear full HA they are only 4.0 with CH/wind shield, and dealing significantly less damage than demon. That means less BP heals, and more gaps between being able to purify themselves.

ArchSaber - Sanctuary

You forgot to talk about the *style of playing* ****.

Kniraven - Lost City

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

By request makeing this thread since the issue is beign brought up in forum again

Sage sucks:

Chi gain: At 5 aps cycloned demon will maintain more than enough chi and even the greifing skill is mroe usefull than master Li's wachamacallit sicne you can use it to effectivly keep Psy's and Wizzie from building chi to loloneshot you plus it takes a considerable amount of time to cast. If killed in TW...you have damn spark pots right? if not Bell>marrow>marrow>bell and you have roar chi happy hunting

So yes sages save sparks and make 50 more chi per minute but tbh i'm rarely under 2 sparks on a damn demon in pvp do you really need more?

Damage- DPS: Sage mastery gives 15% over demon in weapon damage, Demon DBB gives %%% weapon damage over sage DBB nuff said for fist DPH. Demon GS gives 100% crit for 5 seconds at a 50% chance for an average DPS boost fo 15%. Thats of course assumeing the sage is spamming wind sheild and its nto like the demon cant just frenzy with that geni chi. Oh and demon can hit 5 aps with g 15 claws/fists completly blowing sage away

No contest sage sucks for DPS

Damage:- DPH: With higher weapon adds on farstrine aeiolen blade and the mastery boost sage does have higher DPH than demon. However again demon's ability to CC GS for 100% crit in addition to mastery crit and such allows demon to easily chain crits for a higher chance of zerk+crit.

Sage hits harder DPH wise but demon can crit you 4 times in a row reliably take your pick

Survivability: Sage bell gives 15% more static def than demon, sounds great till you realize that this is 500-1k of phys def depending on ring refine whereas demon can spike phys def w/o marrowing via demon bell Sage is more usefull for other classes demon is more usefull for yourself. Marrows, Sage mag marrow = archer food plain and simple the huge phys def gimp and no ability to compensate makes sages horrifily vulnerable to any phys attacks...and theres 1 class in the entire game that has no heavy hitting phys skill. Sage phys marrow IS nice in pve but Pve is easy enough that its just overkill. Sutra, 10% for 2x healing isnt reliable enough to really matter.

Sage looks good on paper but is squishy as all hell in practice

Stuns: demon gets 100% stuns shorter cooldowns more stuns and longer stuns, sage gets a 25% chance to save a spark and a reduced roar cost b:chuckle

Demon wins hands down the removal of reliance on blade or OI is simply amazing allowing for less breaks in your attack chains and you will almost never have all disables on cooldown if the oponent genis out of lock

Sparks: Sage gets a 25% damage reduction that does nto stack with BB or with wind shield. Sage spark requires cyclone CC/ Wind Sheild, Demon deals 20-25% (5-10% due to DBB 15% with GS) more damage for more healing assumeing cyclone CC, and can save geni energy for spell cancleing assumeing wind sheild

Sage spark is damn near useless

Customization: Sage needs 2x LA for 5 aps this limits you to 1 build for pve whereas demon can go full HA or keep 4 aps base+ it opens a lot more gear paths for HOW you get your 5 aps

Coin: Sage will take 200-350 mill more coin to hit 5 aps and still be worse at farming than demon simply because demon kills faster at the same damage to healing ratio.

Lazyness: Demons can makj a spark macro and afk..and still hit as hard as a sage CC'ing heel. More than a sage letting it fully cast

Sage is only good for a pure axe rank 9 BM and even then demon is arguably better since sage gains chi when our class is already more than capable of makeing tons of chi and gains skill spam DPH when the most common method of killing is DPS.Demon gains horrificly OP procs a more balanced marrow bell set and more freedom with gear choices along with a sexy red spark.

In short, sage is usefull i suppose but it pales by comparison to demon simply becasue demon both allows entire new methods of play and improves on the existing style whereas sage conserves resources bm's already have in abundance.

less polite version: Sage sucks dirty herpes sore covered puss leaking goat balls that have been rotting in a ditch for 2 weeks marinateing in refuse. Demon is made of sex, win, and delecious moist cake. Come to the red side we're better than you

1. I don't use windshield, windshield is stupid. It is especially stupid for a Sage BM BECAUSE it cancels our spark. Moving on.

2. In response to Sage Mag Marrow making us archer food, that is just silly. My physical defense with Sage magic marrow is still considerably higher than my magic defense. Additionally, as a BM you are not an archer's primary target and most the time you are hit in TW it will be from a magic AoE that likely wasn't even directly aimed at you.

3. You comment about the lack of reliability of various Sage skills but fail to mention the lack of reliability on Demon skills that you use. Example: Glacial. It is not 100% chance to give you the crit bonus when cast and sure because you're cancel casting you can keep doing it til it works, but then if you're going to argue about how Sage BMs are wasting time by cancel casting cyclone instead of just sparking then i'm going to be inclined to laugh at you.

4. The extra fire dmg from CC'ing DBB is nice but it can go both ways when you compare it to Sage's mastery, depending on the physical/magical defenses of your target. The difference between Sage and Demon DBB when you compare the add-on in actual terms of damage is not as significant as you make it out to be.

5. As you stated yourself, Sage Aura is more valuable to your teammates if you're a team player. Demon is only more useful if you're willing t stop every 15 seconds to spam it. Again, and you lecture me on wasted time and having to stop to do things as opposed to spark macro. Compare it yourself, with the exception of 5.0 G15 claws which a Demon BM would also have to use 2 LA99 pieces for (thus completely shattering your argument on Demon BMs having a better defense because of different orn's or 2 gears) Sage BMs have a better balance of damage/defense and are less likely to die when you come back from your afk macro.

6. In the end of your post you make an argument pro-Demon BM based on the fact that Sage is more expensive to get 5.0. It is, I agree with you. I also think it's completely worth it.

Unlike you, I am not here to argue that one path is better than the other. I'm just here to debunk your notion that Sage is worthless and there is no reason to choose it.

Demon has a longer stun, a stun that never misses, it is easier to achieve max interval, it has a longer lasting Heavens Flame, it has the CC glitch for a short burst of 100% crit and it give you a turtleing ability with Demon Bell and the marrow of your choice.

You say a lot of times, Derp Sage can do this but by doing this demon can do it too!
I could do the exact same thing for many of the Demon path's advantages but we're here to compare them on equal ground for what they are to show that both have advantages.

You can not keep changing the situation to one where you can come up with a method to make demon seem favorable.

ex 1. They can gain chi right after death real fast but like, if we have spark pots whats the problem? We can marrow and buff a few times to have roar chi even if we don't.
A: So can Sage BMs and they'd still have more chi by the time they got back to the field

ex 2. Demon can spam CC Glacial over and over until it finally procs and get more DPH than a Sage BM, especially if the Sage BM uses windshield and we use frenzy!
A. Sage BM can not waste time trying to get a proc to go and will have much more DPS than a Demon BM, especially if the Demon BM uses solid shield to get defense and we use frenzy!

ex 3. You said it yourself, Sage has higher DPH. Demon can have higher DPH for like 4 seconds if their CC-pole skill procs.

~*~*~*~

Look, this is just a silly supremest debate that has been going on forever. Long back, before the dominance of fist BMs, Sage was often argued here as the path of choice. Now, Demon is argued as the path of choice. Truth be told they both have considerable advantages and disadvantages.

Some of my examples above are rather silly but so are a lot of yours in your post. I just made it more obvious in mine. You talk about the advantage of being a Demon as far as use of genie skills and use more than once windshield as if every Sage BM has it. I don't. I think it's a stupid skill. You talk about how Demon BMs have better DPS because of the ability to go 5.0 with G15 claws which is true but then you also have parts saying to go demon because it is cheaper and because you can tank better because of not having to use 2 HH99LA pieces. They conflict with each other. You talk about Demons being able to go afk and spark macro at 5.0 but then also go to say their DPS is better when they spam a % chance to work skill and cancel cast it. You even go so far as to say it's a constantly reliable skill...

Yeah Sage Spark's defense is overridden by blue ball, and demon spark's speed is overridden by red ball, as well as any other speed increase in the game.

As a Sage BM i find myself easily able to tank and solo with nothing other than bloodpaint most HH (Not saying demons can't). People often squad me for my preferable buff. 1vs1 against Demon BMs I often enjoy the advantage that we are both hitting 5.0 with me having a 20% damage reduction and much higher pdef than they do.


Here are some specific advantages to Sage BM that are not replicable by a Demon BM.
1. We have the ability to gain chi faster without striking at a target.
2. We conserve a lot of our chi with stuns that cost less or no spark at all.
3. We can maintain 5.0 for a longer stretch of time without stopping than a Demon BM.
4. We have stronger DPH attacks for quickly taking down low hp/def targets in a single strike.
5. We have potentially both more pdef and more mdef than a demon BM with the use of our marrows.
6. Demon BMs have no skill equivalent to our Sage Spark's dmg reduction, where as we do have equivalents to their speed increase.


I myself listed advantages to Demon that even you did not. I am well aware of the abilities of both paths. I again repeat that I am not trying to prove Sage better than Demon, just that it has it's own advantages.

Faeble - Heavens Tear

I think sage is nice if you are a pure axe build.

To me, I love everything about being demon. Though, the only thing I like about sage is the aura of the golden bell is better long term and for the squad, but, even so, demon was the way to go for me. The only thing I really saw was good about going sage was the chi, but, I make chi pretty easily so I'm not worried about that. Cloud Eruption ftw! I don't even have CE maxed and it gives me 1.5 sparks which is enough for me to demon spark + HF for myself.

Though, unless I am missing something, how are you getting 5.0 longer than demons?
If you are using RC (would hope you would over windshield..or pots maybe?) cant a demon bm just use their spark then after that wears off use their RC and then technically they last longer at 5.0 than sage?
The dmg reduction is a plus to sage but I figure absolute domain / apoc pots work nice too.

ecatomb wrote:

Celestial Eruption
Requisite Cultivation Aware of the Myriad
Detonates all three Sparks to recover 20% of your maximum HP.
Grants bonus damage equal to 700% of weapon damage and
reduces all damage taken by 25% for 15 seconds.
You also become immune to all damage for 3 seconds.

Costs 3 Sparks.

Not trying to argue / fight. Just curious how sage is hitting 5.0 for longer than a demon bm?
But yeah, won't lie. Sage Aura of the Golden Bell is better. I know when I squad up with another bm I always ask what level theirs is.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

Demon has a longer stun, a stun that never misses, it is easier to achieve max interval, it has a longer lasting Heavens Flame, it has the CC glitch for a short burst of 100% crit and it give you a turtleing ability with Demon Bell and the marrow of your choice.

.

No, you just fully cast cyclone waseing 2+ seconds of spark

Unless yuor useing 2x phys orns and are fully buffed i sincerly doubt sage mag marrow equalizes your def

CC on GS can be done once per spark cycle at a .2 second loss for a 15% DPS gain over time counting the 50% proc rate

Sage spark redustion is virtually useless for reasons listed in the OP

Demon is simply better because it can do things sage cannot, the inverse cannot be said

Kniraven - Lost City

Faeble - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I think sage is nice if you are a pure axe build.

To me, I love everything about being demon. Though, the only thing I like about sage is the aura of the golden bell is better long term and for the squad, but, even so, demon was the way to go for me. The only thing I really saw was good about going sage was the chi, but, I make chi pretty easily so I'm not worried about that. Cloud Eruption ftw! I don't even have CE maxed and it gives me 1.5 sparks which is enough for me to demon spark + HF for myself.

Though, unless I am missing something, how are you getting 5.0 longer than demons?
If you are using RC (would hope you would over windshield..or pots maybe?) cant a demon bm just use their spark then after that wears off use their RC and then technically they last longer at 5.0 than sage?
The dmg reduction is a plus to sage but I figure absolute domain / apoc pots work nice too.



Not trying to argue / fight. Just curious how sage is hitting 5.0 for longer than a demon bm?
But yeah, won't lie. Sage Aura of the Golden Bell is better. I know when I squad up with another bm I always ask what level theirs is.

Sage Cyclone Heel Lasts for20 seconds.

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

No, you just fully cast cyclone waseing 2+ seconds of spark

Unless yuor useing 2x phys orns and are fully buffed i sincerly doubt sage mag marrow equalizes your def

CC on GS can be done once per spark cycle at a .2 second loss for a 15% DPS gain over time counting the 50% proc rate

Sage spark redustion is virtually useless for reasons listed in the OP

Demon is simply better because it can do things sage cannot, the inverse cannot be said

What you quoted had nothing to do with your post just now and you didn't address anything I said Sage could do that demon could not, you simply stated Demon could do everything sage could and more bt offered nothing to back it up.

You can cancel cast cyclone heel wasting 0.2 seconds minimum for the speed boost.

You listed sage spark reduction being useless because it is canceled by BB and because you believe that using 2 LA ornaments or LA gears cancels out it's bonus.

I am not always in blue ball, nor am I always wearing 2 99 pieces. Also, even if i were wearing 2 99LA orns, the reduction would only be wasted vs. a magic class which would just make me an idiot for wearing LA orns against a magic class. I don;t think either of those arguments hold any weight, especially since 5.0 or not, Sage Spark provides Sage BMs with a dmg reduction that Demon BMs can not replicate.


I will restate:
Here are some specific advantages to Sage BM that are not replicable by a Demon BM.
1. We have the ability to gain chi faster without striking at a target.
2. We conserve a lot of our chi with stuns that cost less or no spark at all.
3. We can maintain 5.0 for a longer stretch of time without stopping than a Demon BM.
4. We have stronger DPH attacks for quickly taking down low hp/def targets in a single strike.
5. We have potentially both more pdef and more mdef than a demon BM with the use of our marrows.
6. Demon BMs have no skill equivalent to our Sage Spark's dmg reduction, where as we do have equivalents to their speed increase.

Again, I am not claiming Sage is better than Demon.
I am saying that it has advantages in and of itself and that it is a viable choice with pro and cons.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

Sage Cyclone Heel Lasts for20 seconds.



What you quoted had nothing to do with your post just now and you didn't address anything I said Sage could do that demon could not, you simply stated Demon could do everything sage could and more bt offered nothing to back it up.

You can cancel cast cyclone heel wasting 0.2 seconds minimum for the speed boost.

You listed sage spark reduction being useless because it is canceled by BB and because you believe that using 2 LA ornaments or LA gears cancels out it's bonus.

I am not always in blue ball, nor am I always wearing 2 99 pieces. Also, even if i were wearing 2 99LA orns, the reduction would only be wasted vs. a magic class which would just make me an idiot for wearing LA orns against a magic class. I don;t think either of those arguments hold any weight, especially since 5.0 or not, Sage Spark provides Sage BMs with a dmg reduction that Demon BMs can not replicate.


I will restate:
Here are some specific advantages to Sage BM that are not replicable by a Demon BM.
1. We have the ability to gain chi faster without striking at a target.
2. We conserve a lot of our chi with stuns that cost less or no spark at all.
3. We can maintain 5.0 for a longer stretch of time without stopping than a Demon BM.
4. We have stronger DPH attacks for quickly taking down low hp/def targets in a single strike.
5. We have potentially both more pdef and more mdef than a demon BM with the use of our marrows.
6. Demon BMs have no skill equivalent to our Sage Spark's dmg reduction, where as we do have equivalents to their speed increase.

Again, I am not claiming Sage is better than Demon.
I am saying that it has advantages in and of itself and that it is a viable choice with pro and cons.

"You listed sage spark reduction being useless because it is canceled by BB and because you believe that using 2 LA ornaments or LA gears cancels out it's bonus."..when did i say that? i said a well played demon will do 25% more damage makeing sage reduction worthless in pve since demon can kill faster with the same survivability. And wind sheild reduces a nice bit on a dex geni.

1. Who cares? CE, spark pots hitting an npc, etc will all chi you up faster than the 50 chi per minute Master Li's tech.
2.In combat demon wastes less chi due to longer/more accurate stuns gaining more time to beat the **** outa your target at 5.0 cycloned. Unless i'm fighting another demon BM i rarely have issues keeping my chi above 2 sparks.
3. Mildly useless in pve and in pvp if somones not dead in 15 seconds of heel your *** deep in aligators. Plus you can just CC before stun to waste 0 time
4. ...sage does have slightly higher DPH but even with the adds Bm spike damage suuuuuucks outside of a lucky zerk/crit or chain of crits/zerks. Sage has a lower base crit and a much lower proced crit. The only real use i've found for axe skill spam is vs rank psys since they're the only class you cant claw to death.
5. With demon bell spam and marrow? Your not going to top a demon bm's phys def. Also demon has the option to use 2 m def or rank 9 chest+belt for even more m def
6.Wind...sheild. Costs almost no geni stam and is just about the perfect pvp skill, and in pve sage reduction is pointless

Things demon can do that sage cant,

1.Stunlock with only 2 skills freeing geni for just about anything
2.Spike phys def more than once every 10 mins with bell instead of gaurd (reeeealy usefull after a purge or vs sins)
3. get a 100% crit rate
4. hit 5 aps with g 15 weapons/go full HA

only listed the things sage cannot do

I'm more than mildy amused that your trying to debate me with the points i listed for sage in the OP. Got anything the rest of the forums HAVENT heard 1000 times or is this thread just # on our forums thread count?

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

*Points to Relentless Courages 30 second cooldown and giggles*

Wind Shield is spammable. Also, where a Sage BM wouldn't get more aps by having more then 25% increased attack rate from their genie, a Demon BM spamming Wind Shield can have more damage reduction than a Sage BM's spark.

Also. I attack 300 times a minute. How much trouble do you really think I have gaining 50 chi?

Still not quite sure "Sage can 5 aps longer" is a valid argument. CCing cyclone in .2 seconds is ridiculously ideal and take closer to .5 in most cases. I assume you CC cylone before your spark. 15 second spark, 3 seconds are invincibility. 12 seconds of spark. You have 5 seconds of 5 aps left so you triple spark again and have another 3 seconds invincibility you can't attack during, then 2 second left of 5 aps so you have to CC cyclone again mid spark to keep 5 aps with 9.5 seconds left to attack on your spark. I think you're right technically that sage will be 5 aps longer but because spark and heel don't match up you'll be having to react to your spark ending midway through being 5.0, or your 5.0 ending midway through being sparked. With slight human error, even a .2 second reaction time, it becomes a non factor. Or are we comparing sage a sage 5 apsing longer, just not sparking?

Sage DPH is maybe 2% higher. But, that's before demon DBB (and yes, I reliably CC it almost continuosly). Josh tried to argue the benefit of 4 reliable crits in a row being a compensation for the 2% DPH but he's wrong. 29 reliable crits in a row is a very valid compensation for demon (5 aps x 5 second 100% GS crit rate + 4 reliable crits). End game pk with charms, which do you think is going to make more of a difference bypassing a charm tick: The 2% dph or the 29 crits in a row.

I still love my demon bell way more than sage bell. I don't mind a sage bm being in the squad to buff I'll just buff over him when I find his buff to be "not enough" and need to call in mine. I think sage bell gives me around 350 pdef more than demon. Currently that isn't enough to give me even another 1% pdef reduction, but some rank 9 barbs in tiger form have told me it gives them 800 pdef more so I consider it a draw between the two skills.

And Josh already pointed out D Bell + D pmarrow = better phys def and better magic defense than S Bell and S pmarrow.

Btw... Saying Sage Diamond Sutra is better than D Diamond Sutra because of the heals on a 1/5 chance that is gives you 50% more hp is kind of ridiculous. If we're talking 5 aps we're talking the neighborhood of 100k dps. 2% paint on that is 2k hp per second. 10% crit increase gives you another 200 hp per second x 15 second = 3k hp more, plus 10% dmg increase+ pair perfectly with your spark + is 100% reliable.

Nael - Dreamweaver

In regards to Demon GS giving 100% crit rate, it only gives 100% when you don't cancel it. When you cancel in actuality you only get 95%. Sometimes I would get a non crit in midst of a crit spree after canceling GS, so I'm pretty sure the number is reliable.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Nael - Dreamweaver wrote: »

In regards to Demon GS giving 100% crit rate, it only gives 100% when you don't cancel it. When you cancel in actuality you only get 95%. Sometimes I would get a non crit in midst of a crit spree after canceling GS, so I'm pretty sure the number is reliable.

no the crit cap in pwi is just 95% on the char sheet casting or cancleing gives the same buff

@ saku: read the post better man the 4 crits was assumeing fast skill spam with axes not fist auto

snakecrow

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

1. Who cares? CE, spark pots hitting an npc, etc will all chi you up faster than the 50 chi per minute Master Li's tech.

Everything you listed can be done by both. I still have a 50 chi advantage over you returning to battle. I also consume less of it for my stuns. You can't argue with that no matter how much you try to say you don't care; or argue you have some other advantage that I don't. I will always have this as an advantage over you even if it isn't the particular advantage which is your preference. It is mine.

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

2.In combat demon wastes less chi due to longer/more accurate stuns gaining more time to beat the **** outa your target at 5.0 cycloned. Unless i'm fighting another demon BM i rarely have issues keeping my chi above 2 sparks.

While i didn't specify I was primarily referring to TW, where you're an idiot imo if you break out fists to start stun locking one target in place. That's a whole other issue though. Either way you're incorrect, if we average it like you enjoy doing for Glacial Spike to mathematically prove a DPS advantage, then: My Drakes Bash averages at costing 25 less chi than yours and my Roar is a constant 10 chi less. 135 chi vs 100 chi, The 135 chi has 1.5 seconds longer stun. that's 12 vs 13.5 seconds. That gives you a 11.5% Time Advantage vs my 35% Chi Advantage. I would also like to have it noted that in order for you to have 5.0 with cyclone heel as you used in your example, you need to have 2 HH99LA pieces equipped which you stated in the original thread we were talking in multiple times was a disadvantage that was held by Sage BMs.

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

3. Mildly useless in pve and in pvp if somones not dead in 15 seconds of heel your *** deep in aligators. Plus you can just CC before stun to waste 0 time

You're calling it useless, which doesn't make it any less true. It is something a Sage BM can do that you can not. I don't find it useless.

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

4. ...sage does have slightly higher DPH but even with the adds Bm spike damage suuuuuucks outside of a lucky zerk/crit or chain of crits/zerks. Sage has a lower base crit and a much lower proced crit. The only real use i've found for axe skill spam is vs rank psys since they're the only class you cant claw to death.

Again, your response does not change the fact. Sage BMs do have a higher DPH. It does have advantages in many situations. Many of our useful skills themselves have higher damage output than their demon counterparts.

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

5. With demon bell spam and marrow? Your not going to top a demon bm's phys def. Also demon has the option to use 2 m def or rank 9 chest+belt for even more m def

1. Alright I will concede that stacked Demon Bell for the first 15 seconds with demon pmarrow will provide more pdef than than the sage counterparts. This is only until that 15 second addition is over though. However Sage magic marrow will still allow for more potential mdef than a demon BM can have. Regardless of whether or not you feel the price is worth it, it is still the case.
2. I do not know why you keep saying that Demon BMs can use this or that armor piece as if Sage BMs can not. Yes we do need to have one more int bonus to achieve genie'less 5.0 than a Demon BM does however that does not mean we constantly need to have those on or that all Sage BMs even are 5.0. Whats worse is that in over half of your examples which attempt to prove Demon overall supremecy you imply the gears you say are a Sage BM's weakness in your Demon BM examples.

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

6.Wind...sheild. Costs almost no geni stam and is just about the perfect pvp skill, and in pve sage reduction is pointless

It only costs next to no genie stamina when at a very low level. To equal Sage spark's defense reduction it would need give or take 96 dex points. To be spammable you're going to need high magic as well. You have in previous arguments used this very same skill as an example to why demons are better because they could fill their genie slot or use the stamina on their genie toward something else. I throw the same back at you. This isn't an equivalent to sage spark, it is a waste. Sage BMs do not NEED a genie skill to achieve 5.0. As you stated yourself, Demon BMs DO need a genie skill however to try and equivocate our dmg reduction.

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

Things demon can do that sage cant,

1.Stunlock with only 2 skills freeing geni for just about anything
2.Spike phys def more than once every 10 mins with bell instead of gaurd (reeeealy usefull after a purge or vs sins)
3. get a 100% crit rate
4. hit 5 aps with g 15 weapons/go full HA

only listed the things sage cannot do

I'm more than mildy amused that your trying to debate me with the points i listed for sage in the OP. Got anything the rest of the forums HAVENT heard 1000 times or is this thread just # on our forums thread count?

I agree with all of the points you made about Demon. I am well aware they can do things Sage can not, just as I am aware Sage can do things Demon can not. Though technically speaking a Sage BM can go 5.0 without any LA pieces and with g15 weapons, sooo... you're not 100% correct. It just is very impractical and would be kind of pointless unless you can kill your target in under 8 seconds, and even then you could use a better genie skill with a lesser weapon and probably be more effective.

Just thought i'd call you on the technicality though.


EDIT: oops wrong acc. I assume you know who this is though.

EDIT2: When i state: "Though technically speaking a Sage BM can go 5.0 without any LA pieces and with g15 weapons" I mean either/or, not both. Don't know if that needed clarification or not.

TheDan - Sanctuary

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

I will restate:
Here are some specific advantages to Sage BM that are not replicable by a Demon BM.
1. We have the ability to gain chi faster without striking at a target.
2. We conserve a lot of our chi with stuns that cost less or no spark at all.
3. We can maintain 5.0 for a longer stretch of time without stopping than a Demon BM.
4. We have stronger DPH attacks for quickly taking down low hp/def targets in a single strike.
5. We have potentially both more pdef and more mdef than a demon BM with the use of our marrows.
6. Demon BMs have no skill equivalent to our Sage Spark's dmg reduction, where as we do have equivalents to their speed increase.

Again, I am not claiming Sage is better than Demon.
I am saying that it has advantages in and of itself and that it is a viable choice with pro and cons.

1. True, but you can also lose it twice as fast from a demon that has a 30 second cool down mo zun taunt vs 60 second master li's technique. With demons having stronger disabling skills, combine their taunt with a genie chi drain skill, and enemies can lose 150 chi every 30 seconds. Prevents ulti casting mages.

2. This is negated because Demons have more stuns that cost no chi. Demon meteor rush costs no chi and has a 33% chance for 5 second stun, combining this with aoelian blade, in 2 hits you have an effective 83.33% chance to stun an enemy without using any chi (that is about as reliable as a 90% chance sage roar).

3. True, but enemies kite in PvP. Longer speed buff doesn't guarantee your enemy will stay in one spot. A Demon BM can keep a target stun-locked for a longer period of time without stopping.

4. More DPH is negated by less crit rate. Demons will zerk crit more often.

5. A Demon BM can demon bell and phys marrow, or switch to double mage orns and mage marrow for more than a sage, while still maintaining 5.0 sparked. Without ornament changing, I suppose sage can get more.

6. Damage reduction can be overcome by demon bell, switching to HA, changing ornaments, or wind shield. And no, no BMs spark in PvP, so I'm assuming PvE while maintaining 5.0 sparked.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

snakecrow wrote: »

Everything you listed can be done by both. I still have a 50 chi advantage over you returning to battle. I also consume less of it for my stuns. You can't argue with that no matter how much you try to say you don't care; or argue you have some other advantage that I don't. I will always have this as an advantage over you even if it isn't the particular advantage which is your preference. It is mine.

sage makes more chi, duh, however even without spark pots vs antistun spamers i rarely go under 2 sparks as a demon and am at 2.5-3 more often than not, why would i ever need more chi?

While i didn't specify I was primarily referring to TW, where you're an idiot imo if you break out fists to start stun locking one target in place. That's a whole other issue though. Either way you're incorrect, if we average it like you enjoy doing for Glacial Spike to mathematically prove a DPS advantage, then: My Drakes Bash averages at costing 25 less chi than yours and my Roar is a constant 10 chi less. 135 chi vs 100 chi, The 135 chi has 1.5 seconds longer stun. that's 12 vs 13.5 seconds. That gives you a 11.5% Time Advantage vs my 35% Chi Advantage. I would also like to have it noted that in order for you to have 5.0 with cyclone heel as you used in your example, you need to have 2 HH99LA pieces equipped which you stated in the original thread we were talking in multiple times was a disadvantage that was held by Sage BMs.

Already addressed the TW issue and that the cultivations are near equal there in the OP why are you bothering to tell me somethign i already know and stated openly? As for the chi issue GS proc can be counted as d DPS over time boost however the situations where you actually drake bash a target more than twice are pretty rare so the procs not a % gain its an all or nothign gamble, also 1.5 seconds = 7.5 hits at 5 chi each or 37 chi, considerably more than sages 25 average gain but thats assumeing the target lives through 7.5 seconds with a sucessfull GS CC. As for sage roar the chi reduction is nice but hitting for the full dureation its a 20 chi gain on top of the 120 chi gained from simply autoattackign through the stun. As for the LA i'm no heavy fanatic like MD and to a lesser extent Dan 5 aps cycloned is a huge edge in pvp. I use a 4 aps buld myself. However the gear restriction on LA is irksome and prevents hybrind TW/1v1 builds unless you sacrifice attack speed and chi gain, while demon can keep the best of both worlds.


You're calling it useless, which doesn't make it any less true. It is something a Sage BM can do that you can not. I don't find it useless.

It dosent matter and is actualy a gimp in squads, plus a demon CAN get the same boost with 4 aps base gear or simply have higher base stats on top of the 20-25% more damage with a heavy build

Again, your response does not change the fact. Sage BMs do have a higher DPH. It does have advantages in many situations. Many of our useful skills themselves have higher damage output than their demon counterparts.

Again stated this in the OP along with why it dosent matter


1. Alright I will concede that stacked Demon Bell for the first 15 seconds with demon pmarrow will provide more pdef than than the sage counterparts. This is only until that 15 second addition is over though. However Sage magic marrow will still allow for more potential mdef than a demon BM can have. Regardless of whether or not you feel the price is worth it, it is still the case.
2. I do not know why you keep saying that Demon BMs can use this or that armor piece as if Sage BMs can not. Yes we do need to have one more int bonus to achieve genie'less 5.0 than a Demon BM does however that does not mean we constantly need to have those on or that all Sage BMs even are 5.0. Whats worse is that in over half of your examples which attempt to prove Demon overall supremecy you imply the gears you say are a Sage BM's weakness in your Demon BM examples.

No short of a set of -.15 luck as HELL oht wrists a sage cannot have 4 aps base in full HA and for pve purposes relentles eats to much chi to be spammed, in pvp it means sacing a chance to use OI or a deffensive skill again creating a survivability gap. For the last time i said the weakness is a fixed gear set with no real room for customization makeing you an easy to target cookie cutter build that has to sacrifice attack speed or survival while a demon can keep both. 4 aps base is just about the ideal 1v1 or small group pvp build its only in TW or pve that full HA is worth the swap over. And yes i do assume the same gear for both toons because that leaves skill adds as the only real factor. Sage marrow guts your phys def, I have split armor and decently refined rings/belt and even with demon bell and marrow my phys def is lower than hell with marrow on, Your archer food with it on and if the TW DD's cant look at your boffs for the highly distinctive mag marrow sign then LC pvpers suck.

It only costs next to no genie stamina when at a very low level. To equal Sage spark's defense reduction it would need give or take 96 dex points. To be spammable you're going to need high magic as well. You have in previous arguments used this very same skill as an example to why demons are better because they could fill their genie slot or use the stamina on their genie toward something else. I throw the same back at you. This isn't an equivalent to sage spark, it is a waste. Sage BMs do not NEED a genie skill to achieve 5.0. As you stated yourself, Demon BMs DO need a genie skill however to try and equivocate our dmg reduction.

I did say a high dex geni no? Never said it was practicle just that YES it is not an exclusive advantage to sages. Simply put there is nothing a sage can do outside of master Li's tech and reduced cost roar that a demon cannot match or do better



I agree with all of the points you made about Demon. I am well aware they can do things Sage can not, just as I am aware Sage can do things Demon can not. Though technically speaking a Sage BM can go 5.0 without any LA pieces and with g15 weapons, sooo... you're not 100% correct. It just is very impractical and would be kind of pointless unless you can kill your target in under 8 seconds, and even then you could use a better genie skill with a lesser weapon and probably be more effective.

No, they cant every sage "advantage" can be gotten through gear swapping, geni skills, or apothacary pots with little or no sacrifice on the demons part while to get demon "edges" the sage must spend considerably more coin and will still sacrifice a nice chunk of attack/def to do so, and even doing so there are still demon advantages that a sage will never, ever, get.

Just thought i'd call you on the technicality though.

EDIT: oops wrong acc. I assume you know who this is though.

the purple text is quite distinctive

EDIT2: When i state: "Though technically speaking a Sage BM can go 5.0 without any LA pieces and with g15 weapons" I mean either/or, not both. Don't know if that needed clarification or not.

A sage could go 5.0 with a g 15 fist but they would need 2x .05 adds while a demon could reroll for 1/3 the cost cost for +20 attack levels, if your talkign about RC and blood powder then your totaly **** your def and can do so 45 seconds out of every 3 minute interval

There is no advantage whatsoever to going sage over demon, yes the skills are good but unless you a full axe bm (good luck with that) specilized only for TW then demon will be better in every way higher damage, better survival, and more effective control skills with similar chi gain and more possibilities endgame

Again because apperently i need to be redundant as hell to get the ideas through. Sage is not a gimp however it is either equal to or worse than demon in every aspect of pve and pvp. Yes a well played and well funded sage can be a threat but not nearly as much of a threat as a equaly geared and skilled demon. The only possible reason to pick the culti is bad judgement or a need to feel different...or clicking the wrong npc at 89. I can understand your need to defend your culti choice but math logic and in game experiance dictate that yes...sage sucks

side note: you have 7kish hp and mid refined ornaments judgeing from your calvin vid theres no way in hell you have equal phys and mag def without 2 phys orns and no way in hell you have it self buffed. i call bull****

(did i make it womanly enough to not bruise the sage ego's this time? if not i can throw in a training bra and some pictures of rugged yet sensitive firemen saveing kittens in gold thongs)

Kniraven - Lost City

I don't understand your need to be combative and resort to ad hominem attacks but I'll just go with the flow.

I believe contrary to your assumption it is you who i need to simplify things for. As I have pointed out many times, your retorts are back and forth all over the place incorporating a series of situations that do not coincide with each other into one example.

i.e. Blademasters (or at least good ones) do not break out claws and stand in place stun locking and DPS'ing a single target for chi in TW. That is not their role and if you're doing so you're either a hindrance to your faction or I suppose fulfilling the role of another class that your faction doesn't have a proficient number of.

This being said I will break things down for you. I assure you that you aren;t the only person getting tired of repeating their self.

~*~

1.
We have both agreed Sage BMs can generate more chi faster outside of and returning to combat.

You attack this, by saying that you don't need any more chi than the amount you can get with your cultivation preference.

I reiterate, that you saying such does not change the fact. It is still true. It is still a reason I like my cultivation choice. It is still a advantage regardless of whether or not you believe it a significant one.

2.
I do not have to use Drakes bash multiple times in one fight for that to be the mathematical average of the chi I save. The math hold true, you have been proven false in this case.

I am glad however that in your own round-about way you conceded that because Blademasters do not have it in their TW role that they stop in place to 5.0 DPS a target to death in stunlock, Sage Blademasters save and maintain more chi in TW than Demon Blademasters

Kniraven: "We conserve a lot of our chi with stuns that cost less or no spark at all."
Joshcja: "In combat demon wastes less chi due to longer/more accurate stuns gaining more time to beat the **** outa your target at 5.0 cycloned"
Kniraven: "While i didn't specify I was primarily referring to TW, where you're an idiot imo if you break out fists to start stun locking one target in place."
Joshcja: "why are you bothering to tell me somethign i already know and stated openly?"

Cross-check the quotes for yourself they aren't put out of order or edited. I believe I provided enough of the original context but if you disagree feel free to correct me.

3.
Joschcja: "It dosent matter and is actualy a gimp in squads, plus a demon CAN get the same boost with 4 aps base gear or simply have higher base stats on top of the 20-25% more damage with a heavy build"

Here I think we may have misunderstood each other. I say this because your post confuses me. I said Sage Blademasters could maintain a 5.0 attack speed longer if need be than a Demon Blademaster. You say this is a bad thing in squads and frankly didn't really explain why you said it and I can't actually think of a reason. You also say Demons can get the same boost with 4aps base gear which I don't think actually has anything to do with what I said which is why I think we have a misunderstanding. I wasn't saying that Demon BMs can't achieve 5.0 with cyclone heel, obviously they can with same gear.

I was saying cyclone heel CC'd allows me to be 5.0 for a 20 second time duration if need be. Also not really sure what you mean by saying Demon BMs can have higher base stats with a heavy build. I don't know why a Demon BM would have higher base stats nor why that is relevant to me saying Sage BM's can go 5.0 for a longer duration of time.

You asked what a Sage BM can do that a Demon BM can not. You said there was nothing. I continue naming things that they can and you don't deny them at all. Instead you try to come up with reasons why you don't think they matter. We can do that all day infinitely, debate why this or that advantage "doesn't matter".

That does not change their existence.

4.
"Again stated this in the OP along with why it dosent matter"
Again you admit I'm correct and just try to debate that it doesn't matter if Sage BMs can do that because you still think Demon is better in some other regard thus canceling it out in your view.

Look, Sage BMs have advantages that Demon BMs don't. Demon BM's also have advantages that Sage BM's don't. Those are facts, not opinions. What ARE opinions are which benefit/advantages that any given individual may prefer.

I understand well the advantages of Demon BMs, and can very much see their appeal and in no way am trying to tell anyone that Sage is better or to roll Sage>Demon. What I AM saying, is that there are advantages to both. I HAVE both. There do exist things that either can do that the other can not do quite so well or even at all.

You continually telling me why you don't think this or that advantage matters is totally irrelevant. Come back when you can tell me that they don't exist, not why you think it is a non-issue.

5.
a) 5.0 for a BM doesn't mean squat in TW.
b) I switch gears and have them on hotkeys (though your rant about having constant set gear is unrelated to the topic you're commenting on)
c) I repeat, the majority of attacks you suffer as a BM in TW will be magical, and more often than not they will not be aimed for you. I do not say this because i suffer from some delusion that Blademasters are not targets in TW, I say it because Blademasters run at the head of attack groups in a big cluster f#*k and we get hit with all of the random AoEs targeting people around us. We are also not the primary or even secondary targets of Archers.
d) Sage Blademasters still achieve more magic defense than Demon Blademasters. You didn't and you can't deny that. All you seem to be able to do is make up reasons why you believe this or that doesn't matter or you don't like it. Anybody can do that, about anything.
e) In regards to your comment about LC PvP'ers sucking, I have nearly 4 times the PvP kills you do and I'm not even a heavy PvPer. And before I hear some BS about LC blahty-blah pvp server just rpk lowbies. The site doesn't count a kill unless they're within a level range. I believe the range is 20. I've been white/red name since level 30 which I hit about 3 years ago.

6.
"skill" wasn't specific enough i guess. That;s my own fault, I will restate:
Demon BMs have no self-skil (non-genie)l equivalent to our Sage Spark's dmg reduction, where as we do have equivalents to their speed increase.

7.
Joshcja: "A sage could go 5.0 with a g 15 fist but they would need 2x .05 adds while a demon could reroll for 1/3 the cost cost for +20 attack levels, if your talkign about RC and blood powder then your totaly **** your def and can do so 45 seconds out of every 3 minute interval"

I did state it was a technicality and that it was impractical.

8.
Joschcja: "side note: you have 7kish hp and mid refined ornaments judgeing from your calvin vid theres no way in hell you have equal phys and mag def without 2 phys orns and no way in hell you have it self buffed. i call bull****"

Wasn't wearing my normal gear. I have 9.1k HP unbuffed in my usual PvP gear. I have several orns, armor pieces, and rings i switch through when I feel they'd be more beneficial.

Examples: I switch accuracy rings for crit rings in PvE. I switch my good chest/helm for crappier versions with DoT's for faster NV/Frost. I rotate between GX and PanGu's Giant Axe for TW. I have LA orns and Mdef Orns. Usually use Mdef in PvP, and LA in PvE for int.

Also, Calvin is another Sage BM. Just an fyi thing.

9.

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

So yes sages save sparks and make 50 more chi per minute but tbh...

-nods-

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

sage does have higher DPH than demon. However...

-nods-

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

Sage hits harder DPH wise but...

-nods- yeah u said that.

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

bell Sage is more usefull for other classes...

-nods-

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

sage gets a 25% chance to save a spark and a reduced roar cost

mhmmmm

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

1. Who cares?

o.o

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

3. Mildly useless

exists whether u feel its useful or not.

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

4. ...sage does have slightly higher DPH but...

o-o

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

sage makes more chi, duh...

yeah we established that o_O

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

why are you bothering to tell me somethign i already know and stated openly?

.___. because you denied it by saying there were no advantages to Sage whatsoever?

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

It dosent matter

Convincing argument, /sarcasm, but whether you think it matters doesn't change the advantage's existence.

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

it dosent matter

>___> not a repeat, he says it twice in this post.

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

There is no advantage whatsoever to going sage over demon

O__O That's not what you said up there ^

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

Sage sucks dirty herpes sore covered puss leaking goat balls that have been rotting in a ditch for 2 weeks marinateing in refuse. Demon is made of sex, win, and delecious moist cake. Come to the red side we're better than you

What a compelling argument.

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

sage sucks

O'rly

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

then LC pvpers suck.

Oh no u di'nt -Z snap-

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

did i make it womanly enough to not bruise the sage ego's this time? if not i can throw in a training bra and some pictures of rugged yet sensitive firemen saveing kittens in gold thongs

b:bye

Synopsis:
Stop trying to say why you believe things don't matter. That is irrelevant. You came here to prove that Sage BMs hold no advantages whatsoever over Demon BMs, and to label them as a nonviable choice; not to tell everyone why you don't like their particular set of advantages.

If you just want to sit there and nitpick about how this or that doesn't matter because this over here is better and so therefor it outweighs this or that, then you can sit here all year each morning going 'DUURRRRRP U ACTIMAVATED MAH TRAP CARD' and coming up with a hundred-thousand imaginary scenarios and/or genie/pvppot/buff/gear equivalents and telling people why you prefer one set of advantages to the other.

I am here to say that Sage BMs do have some advantages, just like Demon BMs do. I'm not saying Sage is better than Demon or trying to convince people to change paths but putting on a guide for newcomers that Sage has no advantage whatsoever is just jaded and false.

Now if you want to continue debating and telling me that Sage has no advantages whatsoever then go ahead, but stick to the issue. Stop derailing, saying 'Yeah... but..' and insulting me with personal attacks.

Giving in that there is even one lone situational advantage to any Sage skill whatsoever is an immediate loss on your part pertaining to your original claim.

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

name one thing that a sage bm can do that a demon cannot do

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

-List of Things-
I'm sure you could pick at a lot of those but if you want to debate with me please send me a PM or start a new thread I'd be happy to discuss with you.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

When did i ever so much as suggest that autoattacking with fists in tw was a good idea? Ever. No really think i've been pretty clear on my comparison of sage vs demon in map pk, small group pvp, and pve simply because the cultivations are even in TW for the reasons in the OP

A % chance is just that and can only be used as a statistic for relative chi gain/loss in a situation where you use the skill as many times as the % dictates, in the case of drake bash thats 4x. Even more so when the proc is all or nothing. For example, +1 chance with a mirage alone is 50% if i use only one mirage do i gain 50% of +1? No its all or nothing its not untill you stack multiple instances (again minimal here is 4x) that you can take the average, until then its just a 25% chance to save a spark. Notice i only count GS as a 15% boost in pve and nowhere else.

50 chi per minute on a class with abundant chi or the ability to suppress an arcanes 2 spark skills and 3 sparks in 1v1 pvp. If it was only Mon Zul vs Master Li the cultis would be even. However off a full stun demon bash gains a reliable amount of chi along iwth the ability to entirely end a fight...or a 25% chance to save a spark. On roar, a stun that will never miss that costs 35 chi vs a stun that can miss that costs 15, personaly almost all my deaths pre demon roar against other meles came from roar not procing. Its THE stun that defines our class and haveing it miss just isnt something any bm i know of expects or enjoys, and when the catch all stun fails it tends to get us killed. Or, you can save 20 chi and keep that chance to miss and die. With all the 5 aps toons and rank 8/9 stuns = def for any pre +10 bm everything else is just to stay alive till the damn things hit. I'd rather live or simply kill the oponent 5% more than keep 20 chi.

I said sage SPARK was a gimp in squads due as it overwrites BB. Sage cyclone tends not to matter in pve as you recast every spark, and in pvp 15 seconds is more than enough to get in a full 10 seconds of auto to break a charm as well as cast both roar and bash. Level 10 does the job just fine unless you need that extra time to CC before sage spark. Both cultis need to recast the skill before an attempted kill (with the exception of very rare scenarios vs kiteing stunbreak geni arcanes)

When did anyone here claim that bm's arent a gaint "kill it now" TW target. Roar/bolt = "Hey ulti these guys now" and nobody wants that. Again though i'm refering to mainly spall group pvp with this where you WILL have both damage types comeing at all times. Bm's are the annoyance class in TW, we're support. With rank jones and such you will die in TW a lot even with high refines pre rank 9 and full JoSD no matter what your culti is. TW is even however i dont really consider being somones buff and stun monkey as real pvp.

PvP kill mean absolutely nothing, you dont CC or stunlock better than the average sanctuary bm. Nobody pvp's on my server w/o high refines the vast majority of my kills where made in ganks against me by 2-3 players or those with gear +10-+12. Most of my armor is +5. Kill count pissing wars are useless, its nothing but a worthless number that people who cant back what they say with logic or math whip out like a damn e-peen. Though on a time per kill basis you have 4x my kills, i've done serious pvp for a month or so on a pve server?

Ah you upped your gear a bit, gratz. (I really did laugh irl when folks started flaunting calvin as a pro, He has +10 gear and got ripped apart by +5 armor bm's and mages who knew how to play. Repeatedly. Though admitedly he is improveing)


Sage Bm's can have higher mag def at the cost of phys def and aps. However its not like demon bm's lose marrow. Sages can make a little more chi but its not like demons fail to do so. sages can wait 5 seconds longer to cyclone but demon still gets the same speed boost. You have yet to list an advantage sage has that demon cannot get, and again most of sages compensation tactics have heavy drawbacks. ou can dump almost 2x the coin into a sage bm and still have lower mag/phys def, hp, and damage, and demon will STILL have edges that sage cannot get, ever

To simplify this grossly, there is a war, both sides have the same amout of fighters, the same types of guns, knives, tanks, planes though they are admitedly different brands with different manufacturing methods. However one side has nuclear ICBM's and can make their weapons at 1/2 the price. What side will win assumeing both are equally well led?

I am confrontational and aim for shock value and audacity in my posts. I'm a punk, get used to it. However if somone can prove me wrong i'm all ears, so if you want to end the endless headbutting and "No U!!" give me one skill or ability that sage has that demons cannot replicate at all. One. Forget the rest of the bull**** and we'll assume that sage and demon are magicly equal in everything but the unique skills the cultivations posess. Blow me away.

Kniraven - Lost City

I'm going to be lazy and name 2 rather useless facts. The base advantages don;t seem to be good enough for you soooo....

Only a Sage BM through any possible self means (No having a veno throw you chi) can possibly throw off all five Blademaster 2-Spark skills in tandem one after the other in a row (pausing only briefly to use Master-Li's Technique).

A Sage BM has the absolute highest possible potential damage out of the two cultivations in the use of a single attack skill (Triple Spark, Bolt).

I'll reply to the rest of later (About to sleep).

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

I'm going to be lazy and name 2 rather useless facts. The base advantages don;t seem to be good enough for you soooo....

Only a Sage BM through any possible self means (No having a veno throw you chi) can possibly throw off all five Blademaster 2-Spark skills in tandem one after the other in a row (pausing only briefly to use Master-Li's Technique).

Thats just chi gain all over again...and tbh a demon can do the same with a high enough STR CE geni and a CC on DBB instead of a full cast

A Sage BM has the absolute highest possible potential damage out of the two cultivations in the use of a single attack skill (Triple Spark, Bolt).

Rank 9 axe 3 spark+ skill combo would hit harder simply due to the higher range on axes and the ability to zerk+30 attack levels Both cultis can DPH highly in different styles, nothing new here

I'll reply to the rest of later (About to sleep).

10char.....

Kniraven - Lost City

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

10char.....

It is not possible to make a high enough str CE genie to replicate that as a Demon BM. Even Sage need one for it to be possible. Also you're incorrect on the second one because of bolt's modifier. Assume G15 Fists with nice adds.

EDIT: GF won't let me sleep =_= still too tired ot effectively debate atm though

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

It is not possible to make a high enough str CE genie to replicate that as a Demon BM. Even Sage need one for it to be possible. Also you're incorrect on the second one because of bolt's modifier. Assume G15 Fists with nice adds.

EDIT: GF won't let me sleep =_= still too tired ot effectively debate atm though

the damage range on g 15 axes is almost 2x that of the claws to begin with and GoF+higher attack level do the rest, adding on the other 30 attack levels from full rank 9 set....its not even close

also theres no point to fireing off DBB even in your absolutely facepalm induceing example so only 8 sparks are needed instead of 10, getting a 2.01 spark CE geni and white tea isnt that hard.

Sunked - Lost City

I was sage bm, switched after i realized demon is just simply better and that's why:

Demon have advantages and sage does but...

1. PVE (single target)
cant beat 3 spark -> cloud eruption -> demon HF -> poke boss
if i bother i rebuff before fight start for considerably higher phys def, sage buff non factor, spamming other skills non factor, and cant be bother with them, and ask ur sqaud mates what they like more demon dragon or sage buff?

2. PVE (multi target)
Stun 100% hit, u dont want 5 mobs to rush on cleric or wizzi when u gather 50, again could rebuff but its not gona change much anyways and filling 4 aoes inside dragon > anything else u can do.

3. PVP (single target)
stunlock = stun -> heel -> poke -> stun -> poke -> stun -> poke ... (swiching axe/fist)
Spark non factor unless u fight cooky barb deciding to tank it

2. PVP (mass)
Im in magic marrow 90% of the time maintaining decent mag and phys def, faster 100% accurate stun, rest w/e non factor, being sage in any of the marrows is just plain stupid as u die/tick to anything opposite to ur marrow including random bramble.

3. TW
Faster stun, flexible marrow, longer demon dragon allow ur fellow aoers to fit in time HF is actually working, honestly how often u r using other kills? 90% of tw is run -> stun maybe some aoe -> run/die repeat, sometime smack maybe some dps on squishy.

4. Gear/Cost
Some ppl may say correctly geared sage win, well if i skip for example tome (400mil on LC) i can use it to buy 16 DO 10* or 8 JoSD and still maintain 3.33 unsparked. Even if coinz r not issue for sage u still need to have different sets least for pvp/pve to match me in both situations. So if sage and demon spent exactly same coinz on gear demon wins by far.

i mean honesty u can have 23 pieces of equipment for different situations and gain 1% more dmg, or 1% more reduction in certain situations by sacrificing other things swapping it, but by the time u done u will die to more flexible demon, which can have everything u have slightly lower, but available at all the time without switching, cancelling etc.

So to sumup; sage can have slight advantage in certain/specific situation, but demon have huge advantage in 90% of situations u will be facing while playing this game, not fair trade of if u ask me.

TheDan - Sanctuary

Yep, I switched from sage to demon after the celestial schism molds came out. Before Anni packs came out, the demon skills were impossible to get, so the 50 free chi was decent for axe BMs before significant interval gear was readily available. (Lunar cape, Scroll of Tome, -.10 weapon, Nirvana pants, etc). I was already a 5.0 sage with CH, but the demon skills were way too nice in PvP to pass up.

I see it this way...

1. You won't win mass PvP by tanking your enemy; unless you're looking for a draw and hope that your enemy will run out of charm before you do, which makes no sense. Prolonging a mass PvP by playing defensive or conservative won't do either side any good, more charm and apoth used. Your goal is to win, not draw.

Let me elaborate. Mass PvP will usually end very quickly, only 1v1s will ever be prolonged fights. In 6v6 PvP, you'll notice mass gank on one person, they can die in under 5 seconds. Your whole party could wipe in under 1 minute if you're not careful.

What will 50 chi mean to anyone if takes 2 seconds to cast? in which case leaving a squad member vulnerable to insane gank. They could already be half dead by the time you finish casting your 50 chi.

So pretty much in mass PvP, where fights will only be a few minutes long tops, you'll usually die with plenty of chi left to spare, if you die with 3 sparks or 2 sparks or 1 spark, the end result will be the same, that you lost. The goal is to win, go full out with skills, not draw.

I'll conclude that in a longer duration fight, the chi would be useful when using leaps and stuns a lot, but not in a lightning paced mass PvP gank where stronger control skills would be better. But a quick win is still better than a slow prolonged win.

2. Saving 10 chi vs Roar that won't miss. Missing a roar when a cleric or long range DD in squad is getting mass ganked/stun-locked during a crucial moment is too risky. I'd gladly give up 10 chi of mine if it'll mean my aoe stun won't miss at a crucial moment, and roar will cool-down faster.

If you're doing 1v1, you can probably get away with a few missed stuns here and there, since these fights are generally more pro-longed.

3. 500 more phys defense is nice to have from sage bell, but won't be a determining factor between life and death to yourself. I'll go ahead and say that it's probably better than demon for longer duration PvE squad oriented stuff.

In mass PvP however, you will probably have your mage marrow up, but may notice suddenly an archer barraging on you, in which case that spiked demon bell will allow you to walk around with mage marrow up with about the same p def as if you were un-marrowed.

This would also apply if you or a party member were purged, this spiked re-buff is very nice to buy time and stay alive.

4. 25% chance to save spark Drake bash vs 1.5 second stun

I guess another conservative skill vs offensive skill. The only time I can see this being useful is if you somehow missed and you saved your spark instead of losing it. The chance to end the fight and win completely seems to outweigh a chance to save a spark and prolong the fight...

Overall conclusion: If you're trying to save chi or prolong a fight, you're probably not going to do so well in mass PvP as a sage. The goal of PvP is not to tank your enemy or draw, you want to defeat your enemy.

I'll give it to you that maybe in PvE like a lunar/abaddon/seat trophy mode or something, where you'll be using axes purely, and saving apoth for immunity pots instead of chi, sage might be better off.

Demon skills seem better suit for mass PvP and ending 1v1 PvP more quickly due to more potent control skills as well as debuffs. If you're the conservative type, you personally might stay alive longer due to maintaining your chi to leap or use will, but your squad members probably won't fare as well. I just can't see where prolonged mass PvP would ever take place against equal numbers and gear.

There are some advantages to sage, being more conservative / defensive. But it does come at a cost of skills being less effective/potent. Sure, save some chi here and there, but aiming for a tie in PvP is not really the best strategy or set up in my eyes.

Brus - Lost City

I would LOVE to play sage, but the game forces me to go for Demon.
Sages are needless and can't do anything.

ArchSaber - Sanctuary

Sages having more magic defense how? Yah they have 180% more, but for 5.0, you would need to use a split build. A g14 neck + g14 belt on demon bm is more def then sage with g14 neck and lionrex belt/2ashuras.

And I don't understand why you think it's so amazing that you can use all level 59 skills in 1 go. When would be the time you would ever need to do that?

In PvP, anyone even melee classes kite. So the extra 5 second heel isn't bad but would not necessarily great in pvp. Canceling DBB would get you more chance of killing an opponent in 1 vs 1 PvP. Espacially when you are a demon using demon dbb on sage marrow bm, boop dead. As a DD, sage cyclone heel would not be greater then demon spark. Perma-spark is perma lol.

White Tea or Chi Siphon on a cata in TW, then you have enough chi to do anything. A TW bm job is mainly to stun. Demon BMs have 2 AOE stuns.

Smack/Farstrike/Drakes Ray is enough to kill any low health AA with 1 hit, sage or demon, won't matter, it still gets the job done just as good.

Demon spark + bp is greater than or equal to sage spark. Sage has a better survivability rate and would not need a sin to buff them to go in TT. Demon bms with bloodpaint can survive just as much, except we would farm a lot faster.

Sage DD and Demon DD on harpy wraith. Let's see who would "really" tank her. *cough* demon bm = aggro domination over sage.

Also, in TW, BMs usually use magic marrow if their smart. Doi 120% less p def = barrage/bt food. Demon has a better balance in TW consdering magic marrow. So they have a better survivability rate in TW, because of the gimped marrow and that no smart bm would actually triple spark.

Sage masteries are an extra 100-200 physical attack. Demon DBB overrides that by so much.


Just a suggestion, go demon. You might actually beat Calvin. You lose to Calvin mainly because he has +10 gear, but also because your sage. Cheze's bm uses Sky Demons Pearl, Ashura Belt and Ashura plate. Only his Ashura plate and Deicide is +10(i think), rest are lower, and he has sharded with sapphire shards also. All Bms would be made fun for using this build, but people don't because he has gear 1/2 the price of Calvins gear and yet Cheze takes him down.. in a few minutes at least. You know why he wins? It starts with a D and ends with an emon. And it's not that old anime Doremon.

_DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary

I don't mind openly admitting I quit the game because I'm not demon. The Chism's are nice, but a month or two learning and finding delta squads just isn't worth it considering the game isn't really that great.

The difference between sage and demon is massively unbalanced, that much is obvious.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

Ima just be the first one to go ahead and say it, tl ****ing dr

Empu - Sanctuary

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

Unlike you, I am not here to argue that one path is better than the other. I'm just here to debunk your notion that Sage is worthless and there is no reason to choose it.

~*~*~*~

Look, this is just a silly supremest debate that has been going on forever. Long back, before the dominance of fist BMs, Sage was often argued here as the path of choice. Now, Demon is argued as the path of choice. Truth be told they both have considerable advantages and disadvantages.

b:thanks Words of truth, just a pitty that most just try to look for 1 ultimate build. This exact same thread is somewhere on every class subforum. I'll never get why it's so hard to admit there are several ways to be good, rather then 1 ultimate way. b:sad

Okeano - Harshlands

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

b:thanks Words of truth, just a pitty that most just try to look for 1 ultimate build. This exact same thread is somewhere on every class subforum. I'll never get why it's so hard to admit there are several ways to be good, rather then 1 ultimate way. b:sad

No, not really.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

Ima just be the first one to go ahead and say it, tl ****ing dr

*ear scratch* good fuzzy

Sunked - Lost City

fellow sage bms dont loose hope, no need to QQ about your hard earned sage skills

just sell your tome, buy demon skill clip and dragon for about 130mil + switching thingi from boutique and some mirages, remaining 250 mil you can spent on refines, pwi hoes or w/e u like, or just sent to me as consultation fee

as a side not im happy i was sage at it gave me motivation to actually finish culti, when i switched i was like WHOA!
and yes its sad bm dont rly have path choice, and yes sage was something to consider like 1 year ago, bot times changes, accept it and adapt, if u dont wanna at least dont confuze new players saying both paths r same good choice in the name of ur hurt feelings, thats just bs.