Simple way to fix magic class problem without pissing anyone off
Comments
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Ling__Tong - Sanctuary wrote: »My six-second channeling/casting on my wizards says nay to your slowness. .15 aps per second? lulz
The issue really isn't PvP here - if you choose to fist/.. dagger? an opponent in pve, you're doing damage to a single target and you have to get there first anyway (2m range ftl lolz). For all intensive purposes I find PvP to be quite balanced. Wizards can do magic damage in a radius of up to 12?m I think, depending on what skill and cultivation you're lookin' at. 1v1 pvp is a little off kilter, but usually on servers like sanc the pk'ers are the r9/nirvana people anyway.
The auto attack isn't a bad idea - I use it on my mage in FW and it works fantastically and costs no MP. (chi is also much more temporary in FW, mind.) Plus mages in PW get gipped because we can't do spark macro like other classes because we have no auto attack feature to fill in the chi we need until we can spark.
5.0 APS is very attainable in PW, but -99 channeling is nigh impossible. I think a solution to this would be to increase all -3 % channeling items to -6 % and all -6 % to -9 %. If you had -9 % gears you would still need 11 gears with -channeling, far outpacing the required gears for -interval, but it would have much more of an affect on mages.
Instacast mages would be WAY more imbalanced than 5APS could ever be.0 -
problem is that unles you reach instacast, channeling is useless,
balance channeling like int. meaning you get a fixed amount of time shaven off your channel time, meaning i can actually reach -.6 seconds making my gush and pyrogram very good DPS but my bids still not that massive fast channeling that you don't see it coming.
make it so that the max is like -.5 , -.6 or -.7 ( didn't do any math so don't have any idea what balanced would be here )I'm famous! i'm on ecatomb0 -
Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »/facepalm
What's with all the idiocy here.
Ok, I'll play along with this for a second. Give magic classes equal DPS to a melee.
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I think you missed my point. I'm not asking for same DPS. Think about it. Base attack rate on a mag wep is MAX 1.25 hits per second. Magic classes don't get interval bonuses from anything except if they do TT 99 2 HA pieces (belt+neck). That means you're still doing 5 APS while they're doing god-im-so-not-doing-the-math 1.33?0 -
WhipThis - Lost City wrote: »So we've all heard the QQ. Magic classes get no nirvana QQ/Fix aps. So I've come up with an idea I think could work without nerfing any classes.
First of all, what makes aps classes so OP is the fact that they deal damage at a very fast rate due to the lack of channeling required. So here's the idea: give magic classes a magic auto-attack skill. It's stupid that the auto-attack for magic classes is melee. Make this attack magic based and people might rethink not taking a wizzie to nirvana when he's doing 12-15k damage 1.25 times a second.
Discussb:cute
Seekers equalize the caster classes.Main:
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Alts:
Lypiphera 101 Cleric
Incompetance 100 Blademaster
MetalPenguin 101 Seeker
b:dirtySolara_Craft/Disarmonia_Xb:dirty0 -
XEmpressX - Heavens Tear wrote: »hehehe this made me LOL. Gm's trolling their own forums now..... there is no hopeb:cute
He's not a GM silly hes a mod. b:chuckle[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
✰The Nostradamus of PWI ✰
★ A not so Retired Veteran of PWI ★
✰ ~SilverCleric~ ✰0 -
Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »Instacast mages would be WAY more imbalanced than 5APS could ever be.
yea except for they capped that. you cant achieve instacast.0 -
_Aubree__ - Dreamweaver wrote: »yea except for they capped that. you cant achieve instacast.
They can still get enough gear to use spells extremely fast, a rank 9 weapon hits me for 3k-5k while I'm marrowed, depending on what skill a Wizard uses. Enough channeling gear on a Wizard would basically be like being hit by a Demon Sparked BM but from 28 meters away. Rank 8 can still hit pretty damn hard, not as powerful as Rank 9 but again.. getting hit by skills that strong that fast from long range? The only way to describe that is horribly unbalanced.
Oh, and that's just one of the arcane classes, just imagine the possibilities with Clerics, Psychics (shivers in fear) or even Venomaners, hell even Mystics.
Changing magic defense on bosses and changing how -channeling gear works aren't really gonna balance anything out... honestly nothing they can do will ever totally balance anything out, and as it stands 5APS is only unbalanced in PvE really... in PvP there's enough a skilled Arcane can do to stand against it.0 -
Personally ive NEVER been able to understand how the hell they were thinking when making wands meleerange >___>
Ive seen it in one other mmo (sure ive not tried everyone out there)
But as im an old Guild Wars player wands ranged = logic imo (yes autoattack sucks there, but hey totally dif mechanics :P )
And think about it, wand/staff is supposed to be magic weapon for spellcasters, not spelltanks >_>
magic sword + glaive i say nothing about being melee, its just logic to me
but wand? oh here i come to smack you in the face with my harrypotterstick b:shutup
b:surrender0 -
b:surrender i m for a buff to make the channeling faster. i know we sage clerics have it, but it lasts only few seconds, but it helps alot at certain situations. Would like to have a buff for 30min to cast faster.retired 11/11/2009 cause of packs. came back 8 months later just to realise it got worse. retired second time 10/11/2010.0
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There's a better solving for Nirvana: just make some of the bosses physically imune. That will make the presence of some magic DD's mandatory. And, of course, make imune the bosses with best drops.b:laugh0
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For this to work they would have to make a new spell skill basically, which would apply to all mages/casters and function like melee auto-attack.
This attack would be ranged magic damage, with range based on a passive skill that must be leveled just like any other skill.
The spell:
Instant channel and cast, cooldown based on aps just like the current auto-attack.
It auto-attacks when used until another spell is used, but does not auto-attack in between skills. To start the auto-attacking again simply use it again.
For balance, this magic auto-attack skill does minimal-moderate damage, perhaps using only base magic attack or weapon damage (or a lesser amount, so that magic auto attack does not replace skills in dps effectiveness as aps has for melee). Each auto-attack has a mana cost of {(character level/2) +15}.
Tell me what you think. This wouldn't really change much as far as nirvana but I think it's how casters should have always been.0 -
BigBadDog - Raging Tide wrote: »There's a better solving for Nirvana: just make some of the bosses physically imune. That will make the presence of some magic DD's mandatory. And, of course, make imune the bosses with best drops.b:laugh
i prefer this b:cuteretired 11/11/2009 cause of packs. came back 8 months later just to realise it got worse. retired second time 10/11/2010.0 -
Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »They can still get enough gear to use spells extremely fast, a rank 9 weapon hits me for 3k-5k while I'm marrowed, depending on what skill a Wizard uses. Enough channeling gear on a Wizard would basically be like being hit by a Demon Sparked BM but from 28 meters away. Rank 8 can still hit pretty damn hard, not as powerful as Rank 9 but again.. getting hit by skills that strong that fast from long range? The only way to describe that is horribly unbalanced.
Oh, and that's just one of the arcane classes, just imagine the possibilities with Clerics, Psychics (shivers in fear) or even Venomaners, hell even Mystics.
Changing magic defense on bosses and changing how -channeling gear works aren't really gonna balance anything out... honestly nothing they can do will ever totally balance anything out, and as it stands 5APS is only unbalanced in PvE really... in PvP there's enough a skilled Arcane can do to stand against it.
Even then you still have cool downs that work against it. Enough channeling will run you into CD. Not to mention casters barely have any anti control skills.0 -
Someone_Else - Harshlands wrote: »For this to work they would have to make a new spell skill basically, which would apply to all mages/casters and function like melee auto-attack.
This attack would be ranged magic damage, with range based on a passive skill that must be leveled just like any other skill.
The spell:
Instant channel and cast, cooldown based on aps just like the current auto-attack.
It auto-attacks when used until another spell is used, but does not auto-attack in between skills. To start the auto-attacking again simply use it again.
For balance, this magic auto-attack skill does minimal-moderate damage, perhaps using only base magic attack or weapon damage (or a lesser amount, so that magic auto attack does not replace skills in dps effectiveness as aps has for melee). Each auto-attack has a mana cost of {(character level/2) +15}.
Tell me what you think. This wouldn't really change much as far as nirvana but I think it's how casters should have always been.
Precisely what I was thinking.0 -
_Aubree__ - Dreamweaver wrote: »Even then you still have cool downs that work against it. Enough channeling will run you into CD. Not to mention casters barely have any anti control skills.
Psychics have more than enough control skills, and even if you do run into cool downs that'll take a while, and it's hard to believe that anyone would actually live long enough to make a magic class with that kind of channeling and magic attack power to actually run into that problem, especially considering that they're Arcane... they're gonna kite and gain distance if their target gets too close which takes up time as well. A Mystic is able to knock melee classes back as well as seal/freeze and stun (well.. pet stun) them somewhat reliably. Then Wizards can seal/sleep (sleep in an emergency or to set up a finishing combo) and leap 30 meters away with a low chi cost and short cooldown. Oh and Clerics have Sleep and Freeze which can both be used quite reliably and combined with kiting become very effective at keeping a melee class at a distance (You of all people should know that one).
Man.. I gotta stop typing so much...0 -
Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »Psychics have more than enough control skills, and even if you do run into cool downs that'll take a while, and it's hard to believe that anyone would actually live long enough to make a magic class with that kind of channeling and magic attack power to actually run into that problem, especially considering that they're Arcane... they're gonna kite and gain distance if their target gets too close which takes up time as well. A Mystic is able to knock melee classes back as well as seal/freeze and stun (well.. pet stun) them somewhat reliably. Then Wizards can seal/sleep (sleep in an emergency or to set up a finishing combo) and leap 30 meters away with a low chi cost and short cooldown. Oh and Clerics have Sleep and Freeze which can both be used quite reliably and combined with kiting become very effective at keeping a melee class at a distance (You of all people should know that one).
Man.. I gotta stop typing so much...
I consider this thread more about sin and magic classes than anything. Yea thats true. However what class doesn't get control skills?Still yet most melees get anti- controls. Found out today that I can't use seal of god on sin with tidal on.. I guess what I mean to say is clerics get fvcked lol0 -
_Aubree__ - Dreamweaver wrote: »I consider this thread more about sin and magic classes than anything. Yea thats true. However what class doesn't get control skills?Still yet most melees get anti- controls. Found out today that I can't use seal of god on sin with tidal on.. I guess what I mean to say is clerics get fvcked lol
Yup... but then again I can't use Demon Roar of the Pride on a sin with Tidal, and it has a 100% success rate. Which sucks... majorly... the melee classes are easily kited (excluding a sin) but ugh.. don't even get me started on how OP those little ****ers are.0 -
WhipThis - Lost City wrote: »So we've all heard the QQ. Magic classes get no nirvana QQ/Fix aps. So I've come up with an idea I think could work without nerfing any classes.
First of all, what makes aps classes so OP is the fact that they deal damage at a very fast rate due to the lack of channeling required. So here's the idea: give magic classes a magic auto-attack skill. It's stupid that the auto-attack for magic classes is melee. Make this attack magic based and people might rethink not taking a wizzie to nirvana when he's doing 12-15k damage 1.25 times a second.
Discussb:cute
Its not a bad idea if it only works in pve. It would get magic classes a decent dps boost inside instances and they could afk like everyone else b:chuckle. However they would still not be able to reach perma spark, so any 5.0 DD would be favored for farming TT/NV. But at least the difference in DPS would decrease.
I guess it also depends on how much dmg this so called magic "auto attack" would do. Would it be affected by magic classes mastery's for example? Would it be affected by Spirit's Gift?
Giving magic classes a ranged auto attack with 1.25 base aps sounds kinda broken in PvP though. Specially if you can stack interval and improve it that way. Caster would than be able to reach about 2.22+ aps with a ranged magic attack and meles would get molested. Archers for example cant get more than a base of 1.05 aps using bow (thats for a very good reason they hit hard). But magic classes hits even harder, so giving them x2 attack speed of an archers sounds like a massive funereal for all the BMs and Barbs incoming. Mele classes wouldn't even be able to reach you before they dropped.
If you compare it to assassins sure it would be fair game with a 2.0 magic machine gun, but other mele classes cant sneak up on people and chain stun/gank lol. They actually have to tank a few hits before they can get in range to counter attack.0 -
TigerLily - Lost City wrote: »Its not a bad idea if it only works in pve. It would get magic classes a decent dps boost inside instances and they could afk like everyone else b:chuckle. However they would still not be able to reach perma spark, so any 5.0 DD would be favored for farming TT/NV. But at least the difference in DPS would decrease.
I guess it also depends on how much dmg this so called magic "auto attack" would do. Would it be affected by magic classes mastery's for example? Would it be affected by Spirit's Gift?
Giving magic classes a ranged auto attack with 1.25 base aps sounds kinda broken in PvP though. Specially if you can stack interval and improve it that way. Caster would than be able to reach about 2.22+ aps with a ranged magic attack and meles would get molested. Archers for example cant get more than a base of 1.05 aps using bow (thats for a very good reason they hit hard). But magic classes hits even harder, so giving them x2 attack speed of an archers sounds like a massive funereal for all the BMs and Barbs incoming. Mele classes wouldn't even be able to reach you before they dropped.
If you compare it to assassins sure it would be fair game with a 2.0 magic machine gun, but other mele classes cant sneak up on people and chain stun/gank lol. They actually have to tank a few hits before they can get in range to counter attack.
Sigh...I see your point. b:surrender0 -
im not sure exactly wat your asking for here,
but in forsaken world, mage classes have a mag auto attack, which just deals base mag damage, and costs no mana.....basically an auto mag attack.....
is that sort of wat your asking, or am i way off?b:question[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
My computer beat me at checkers, but I sure beat it at kickboxing. b:cool0 -
or they could drastically increase the pdef of bosses (but this would make non APS squad take ages upon ages) or have the bosses randomly bramble themselves.. a barb tank using ream would easily survive while being stacked with ream, whereas a 5.0 toon would be dealing a ton of damage to himself every second...Sun_Burn - Lost City wrote: »a decent fix would be drastically reducing boss's magical defenses to compensate for the high damage output of aps classes.
That would solve pve issues, unno what could be done about aps in pvp tho..WhipThis - Lost City wrote: »So we've all heard the QQ. Magic classes get no nirvana QQ/Fix aps. So I've come up with an idea I think could work without nerfing any classes.
First of all, what makes aps classes so OP is the fact that they deal damage at a very fast rate due to the lack of channeling required. So here's the idea: give magic classes a magic auto-attack skill. It's stupid that the auto-attack for magic classes is melee. Make this attack magic based and people might rethink not taking a wizzie to nirvana when he's doing 12-15k damage 1.25 times a second.
Discussb:cute
magic based auto attacking is actually implemented in FW, at least on the Bard character I play. I both like it and dislike it. on the one hand it enables a mage dd to continuously deal damage without having to spam buttons, otoh if you are trying to kite something, the auto attack can kick in and create problems. I'm all for the magical auto attack myself, but it should deal "base magical damage" only and should only be activated by clicking a certain skill/action button.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Retired..0 -
Make in nirvana an extra boss like in bh51, immune to physical damage
and better drop rate (would appear only after killing all bosses)
Make few more worldbosses, immune to physical dmg <--awesome obstacle. Mag classes would get their chronopages without buying them for 2mil each from aps.
b:dirtyretired 11/11/2009 cause of packs. came back 8 months later just to realise it got worse. retired second time 10/11/2010.0 -
Someone_Else - Harshlands wrote: »For this to work they would have to make a new spell skill basically, which would apply to all mages/casters and function like melee auto-attack.
This attack would be ranged magic damage, with range based on a passive skill that must be leveled just like any other skill.
The spell:
Instant channel and cast, cooldown based on aps just like the current auto-attack.
It auto-attacks when used until another spell is used, but does not auto-attack in between skills. To start the auto-attacking again simply use it again.
For balance, this magic auto-attack skill does minimal-moderate damage, perhaps using only base magic attack or weapon damage (or a lesser amount, so that magic auto attack does not replace skills in dps effectiveness as aps has for melee). Each auto-attack has a mana cost of {(character level/2) +15}.
Tell me what you think. This wouldn't really change much as far as nirvana but I think it's how casters should have always been.
I'm all for this idea. (Yes, I have a Wizard) Here on my barb, if I double-click a mob, I will run up to it and start whacking at it with my axes. If I do the same on my wizard, I will do precisely the same: run up to the mob and start hitting it with my wand/glaive/etc. This I find to be an absolutely ludicrous thing for a RANGED MAGIC based character to do. I'm not saying I would want the "Magic Auto-Attack" to be as powerful as, say, BIDS, but I would love to have a ranged magic auto-attack that deals base magic damage, or even just a percentage of it.0 -
A magic auto attack would be nice, its pretty common in other MMOs to.
I dont think it would make casters more desirable inside instances tho since casters cant reach perma spark, but it would be rather convenient for grinding and stuff.
The attack rate on a magic auto attack cant be 1.25 aps either lol. A wizard attacking that fast would be freaking broken in pvp. I guess it also depends on how hard it would hit.
If you add a phy immune boss in NV/TT, people would probably just skip them as well. Or use their 5.0 Sins/BMs for all the regular bosses than have someone log on their old Wizard for just that single boss and give everyone Frost Blade and use pots that adds elemental damage and kill it that way.
Random casters will never be of any use in NV sadly. It takes like 35-45 minutes to run NV with casters in party in my experience lol. Thats so damn slow its not worth going in the first place.
I think a channeling/attack blessing for bows/axes/sword and magic weapons etc, that only worked inside instances, would be a decent solution. Daggers/Fists and Claws would not be affected by the blessing making the difference in DPS a bit less.0 -
XVBx - Dreamweaver wrote: »im not sure exactly wat your asking for here,
but in forsaken world, mage classes have a mag auto attack, which just deals base mag damage, and costs no mana.....basically an auto mag attack.....
is that sort of wat your asking, or am i way off?b:question
You got exactly what I was asking for. So make other MMORPGs have the same skill as magic classes do in FW. Just not this oneb:shutup0 -
and more aggro on fleash ream please that would be good b:thanks0
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XVBx - Dreamweaver wrote: »im not sure exactly wat your asking for here,
but in forsaken world, mage classes have a mag auto attack, which just deals base mag damage, and costs no mana.....basically an auto mag attack.....
is that sort of wat your asking, or am i way off?b:question
Jade has the same thing, I wouldnt mind seeing it for casters ... you know how stupid it is when a psy runs up and slings their orb at a mob? b:laugh[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Random casters will never be of any use in NV sadly. It takes like 35-45 minutes to run NV with casters in party in my experience lol. Thats so damn slow its not worth going in the first place.
Is 35 minutes for running an instance considered slow these days? Or is the droprate in nirvana so utterly horrible that you need to run it 10 times to get anything?
I recall doing instances when they took 3 hours or more and not really thinking anything of it... So the reason casters are not wanted is that the dungeon would take all of 35 minutes to do it? Seriously?
Or did I just miss some sarcasm here or whatever? b:surrender0 -
Chickpea - Lost City wrote: »Random casters will never be of any use in NV sadly. It takes like 35-45 minutes to run NV with casters in party in my experience lol. Thats so damn slow its not worth going in the first place.
That actually pissed me off. Such a spoiled BS. Would love to see you playing back to those days where FC or Lunar needed 3hrs without molds and TT gear. That what happens if you let people lvl once or more per day.
I been in squad only with one aps and rest was casters. the run took only 15-20min.
it wont hurt you to take only few aps and rest casters, unless you are such a ***** and dont like to spend another 5min longer in nirvana.retired 11/11/2009 cause of packs. came back 8 months later just to realise it got worse. retired second time 10/11/2010.0 -
ItsAWolf - Archosaur wrote: »Is 35 minutes for running an instance considered slow these days? Or is the droprate in nirvana so utterly horrible that you need to run it 10 times to get anything?
I recall doing instances when they took 3 hours or more and not really thinking anything of it... So the reason casters are not wanted is that the dungeon would take all of 35 minutes to do it? Seriously?
Or did I just miss some sarcasm here or whatever? b:surrender
Unfortunately I don't think you missed any sarcasm, but I'll give the benefit of the doubt.
Nirvana runs average 3-6mil profit total, it's stupid to say that you "need" to do it in 10 minutes or less with a 3 person squad..... but that seems to be the trend.
I have been in many squads that completed nirvana in less than 20 minutes with no 5.0 +10s in the group. With the right combination of buffs/debuffs and skill timing any group of different classes can do very well.
Give me a cleric, veno, wiz, archer, barb, hell anything that knows how to maximize their damage over some facerolling 5aps sin that is gonna spend 20% of the time dead from stealing aggro>getting sealed>2shot.
But yeah, seekers..... that's the answer apparently. Their physical debuff does NOT amplify non-skill auto-attacks, so they are little use to the aps squads. Put a seeker in a squad with a veno, wiz and bm and you have the potential to get magic classes damage near aps users (with good skill timing). Mindshatter lvl 10 gives me a 42% crit rate with my water attacks all the time and soulshatter gives double damage and 62% crit to my earth attacks for 20 seconds.
About the magic-auto-attack idea: I think that has more use in other games, there are enough skills in this game to attack constantly without it. Forsaken World has this feature, but it is necessary in that mechanical system due to high mp use and lack of skills (no one wants to stand around waiting for cooldowns doing nothing at all).[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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