Simple way to fix magic class problem without pissing anyone off

WhipThis - Lost City

So we've all heard the QQ. Magic classes get no nirvana QQ/Fix aps. So I've come up with an idea I think could work without nerfing any classes.

First of all, what makes aps classes so OP is the fact that they deal damage at a very fast rate due to the lack of channeling required. So here's the idea: give magic classes a magic auto-attack skill. It's stupid that the auto-attack for magic classes is melee. Make this attack magic based and people might rethink not taking a wizzie to nirvana when he's doing 12-15k damage 1.25 times a second.

Discussb:cute

Quilue - Sanctuary

Melees ***** in PvP of any kind. Magic ranged attacks at 1.25/s (which happens to be faster than bow attacks) GG.

I believe the Shatter debuffs on the Seeker was PW's attempt at fixing casters' effectiveness in PvE. (at least based on the skill descriptions)

WhipThis - Lost City

I don't think archers would suffer by this. They still get better refines/defenses and a much higher crit rate.

Quilue - Sanctuary

I don't think you know what you're talking about. First of all, archers are not melees.

Second of all, archer magic attacks take chan and cast like any other spell. The point is that no ranged magic attacks of any kind should be auto attacks. That's too overpowered.

R9 Archers with Jone's can already strafe down melees with physical attacks, now you want casters to have a ranged magic auto attack..

fuzzywuzz

WhipThis - Lost City wrote: »

Discussb:cute

A barb, veno, wiz, psy, archer and cleric walk into Nirvana.....

While sadly it may sound like the opening line to a joke, it is a completely viable Nirvana squad. Fuzzy sees alot of caster classes, and even others like barbs, complaining about not being able to run nirvana.

The panda wonders what would happen if these people "being rejected" started to seek each other out and run together? ZMOG! It took an extra 10min to complete with no aps character! That must mean its impossible without them! QQ!


b:surrender

Kinir - Lost City

Seeker's longest PvE debuff is the Phys/Metal one. While it helps the last one you get, Fire/Water maybe, is the shortest by far. That leaves wizzies/psys with earth skills. So it only benefits some of the casters a lot.

WhipThis - Lost City

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

I don't think you know what you're talking about. First of all, archers are not melees.

Second of all, archer magic attacks take chan and cast like any other spell. The point is that no ranged magic attacks of any kind should be auto attacks. That's too overpowered.

R9 Archers with Jone's can already strafe down melees with physical attacks, now you want casters to have a ranged magic auto attack...

As an archer you have an auto-attack. Its ranged and physical and you should try it out.

All I was suggesting is that as an apped sin its not fair that I can kill a wizzie before they even get a chance to cast their kame-hame-haaaa skill. Might be more of a challange if they could get a chance to hit me.

Kinir - Lost City

You could always not stealth b:chuckle

Quilue - Sanctuary

You're not reading, and you're not understanding. Someone on LC is suggesting something as dumb as this??? Must not have PvPed very much, what's happened to LC??

Sun_Burn - Lost City

a decent fix would be drastically reducing boss's magical defenses to compensate for the high damage output of aps classes.

That would solve pve issues, unno what could be done about aps in pvp tho..

WhipThis - Lost City

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

You're not reading, and you're not understanding. Someone on LC is suggesting something as dumb as this??? Must not have PvPed very much, what's happened to LC??

No, you're right. I don't see how unfair it is to get hit for like 4k 1.25 times per second when I deal 3k 5 times per second. You're worried that you'll get killed. I think it would just change the way ppl pvp.

Quilue - Sanctuary

No, you're ignorant, and playing an OP class.

WhipThis - Lost City

If you put in ecatomb a psychic and archer at level 100 with comparable gear you'll see exactly how even it is. The psy gets 7300-10k mag attack, the archer gets 6-10k with comparable attack speed if both are using auto-attack thanks to all the interval archers get from r8 gear and TT 99 and channelling speed not having any effect on auto-attack for magic classes. Archers also get a lot more HP, p. def, crit rate.

Alfrothul - Dreamweaver

I understand what WhipThis is saying... But I think that less channeling gear works same as less interval gear, the only problem is they are not working equally, in other to get the same dps magic classes need much less channeling than melees need of less interval.

So I think we should discuss how much less channeling and less interval is needed to reach an equally fair dps.

_Aubree__ - Dreamweaver

Alfrothul - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I understand what WhipThis is saying... But I think that less channeling gear works same as less interval gear, the only problem is they are not working equally, in other to get the same dps magic classes need much less channeling than melees need of less interval.

So I think we should discuss how much less channeling and less interval is needed to reach an equally fair dps.

Auto attack dont have cool down. Skills do so you are wrong.

WhipThis - Lost City

Alfrothul - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I understand what WhipThis is saying... But I think that less channeling gear works same as less interval gear, the only problem is they are not working equally, in other to get the same dps magic classes need much less channeling than melees need of less interval.

So I think we should discuss how much less channeling and less interval is needed to reach an equally fair dps.

Channeling affects how fact skills are channelled and does not change the base attack speed of a weapon. Interval would affect the auto-attack for magic using classes as well.

Quilue - Sanctuary

WhipThis - Lost City wrote: »

If you put in ecatomb a psychic and archer at level 100 with comparable gear you'll see exactly how even it is. The psy gets 7300-10k mag attack, the archer gets 6-10k with comparable attack speed if both are using auto-attack thanks to all the interval archers get from r8 gear and TT 99 and channelling speed not having any effect on auto-attack for magic classes. Archers also get a lot more HP, p. def, crit rate.

Oh you've attempted to use your brain to justify yourself. I can humor that.

The difference between physical attack classes and caster classes are the following:

Caster classes have more points that they can allocate into their primary attribute. This is obvious as arcane armor requires about lvl/2 in strength points. Physical classes have to place more points in attributes that do not contribute to damage output. ie: Sins and archers needing lvl + 4 points in strength, BMs and barbs taking dex for accuracy and to wield other weapons.


The cleric's magic attack buff gives a higher multiplier of weapon damage bonus than the barb's physical attack buff.

Caster spark gives a higher bonus that physical class sparks. If I ever get 700% weapon damage to my spark, I'll get back to you on your idea.

Caster classes have more base damage increase per point allocated in their primary attribute. Let me elaborate. Caster base damage from magic is based on a
magic/100 multiplier of the weapon damage. Physical class base damage from primary attribute (could be dex or str depending on class) is based on primary attribute/150. Because casters enjoy a higher multiplier to their weapon attack, even if a physical class has as many points in their primary attribute as a caster, given the same weapon damage, the caster still out-damages the physical class.

Don't believe me? Compare a BM with 500 strength wielding a +12 G15 pole with a wizard with 500 magic wielding a +12 G15 magic sword. What do you see? Despite the fact that Galaxy Shocker has a higher maximum weapon damage than Sandy World's magic weapon attack, the wizard with 500 magic has higher lower end base damage than the BM's higher end base damage.

Let's look at archer vs wiz, archers have the highest physical base damage in the game because they have the highest weapon damage in the game. A 500 dex archer wielding a +12 G15 bow has about the same higher end damage compared to a 500 mag wizard wielding a +12 g15 sword. Bow has over 1k more weapon damage than magic sword. This is also assuming that most archers get 500 dex! Casters have a lot easier time getting more mag because like mentioned above, they have more stat points to play with.

Besides, archer's base attack speed with the bow is 0.65/s. Only by wearing the most -int gear possible can they reach 1.05/s unsparked. You want casters to attack faster, at about the same base damage, without investing in any -int gear?

Another consideration:

There are 2 party pdef buffs in the game, but only 1 mdef buff. A fully buffed wizard can get 20k+ pdef at endgame, can you say the same for a physical class regarding mdef? Do you honestly think a wizard with a magical auto attack will score the same on a BM as an archer using its physical auto attack?

That is why it's too overpowered for a quick, ranged, magical auto attack.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

FuzzyWuzz wrote: »

A barb, veno, wiz, psy, archer and cleric walk into Nirvana.....

While sadly it may sound like the opening line to a joke, it is a completely viable Nirvana squad. Fuzzy sees alot of caster classes, and even others like barbs, complaining about not being able to run nirvana.

The panda wonders what would happen if these people "being rejected" started to seek each other out and run together? ZMOG! It took an extra 10min to complete with no aps character! That must mean its impossible without them! QQ!


b:surrender

Fuzzy read my mind

Sassaiki - Sanctuary

I like the idea of reducing boss magic def to compensate for damage, that would only change pve and not reduce the effectiveness of aps classes. PvP wise the only class I would personally complain about is assassins, and that's really just because of stealth combined with long stuns/seals and aps. Any one of those things by itself wouldn't be an issue to me, but together they are incredibly lethal. An aps BM, while a massive damage dealer, can be seen from far away and there are plenty of options at that point.

Oh....I do have to admit that rank 9 archers completely baffle me. the +12 rank 9 bow seems to have higher base damage than any other rank 9 weapon in the game. combine that with decent aps and mass crit and I just don't know what to do with it.

EDIT: Qui play nice with the other kids. From: your pink pal.

XEmpressX - Heavens Tear

FuzzyWuzz wrote: »

A barb, veno, wiz, psy, archer and cleric walk into Nirvana.....

While sadly it may sound like the opening line to a joke, it is a completely viable Nirvana squad. Fuzzy sees alot of caster classes, and even others like barbs, complaining about not being able to run nirvana.

The panda wonders what would happen if these people "being rejected" started to seek each other out and run together? ZMOG! It took an extra 10min to complete with no aps character! That must mean its impossible without them! QQ!


b:surrender

hehehe this made me LOL. Gm's trolling their own forums now..... there is no hopeb:cute

Alfrothul - Dreamweaver

I guess I was misunderstood...

1st. Magic classes uses skills to attack, and every skill on PWI requires channeling;
2nd. We have an arsenal of skills which we can mix and just don't worry about the cooldown of a specif one;
3rd. Not often you see a tanker losing aggro because he/she casted a skill, which means channeling is a factor in consideration for dps;
4th. You choose a magic user class, casting a skill comes with the package.

So... Taking the above considerations, what we could do to balance things? My suggestion was the reevaluation of the effectiveness of both less channeling and less interval stat on its respective classes. Because its easier to reduce your interval than your channeling in ways, that in comparison, would make both melee and magic classes has equally dps.
Compared with the others suggestions, this would be more liked to happen since it would only requires a change on the gear' stats and not a major change at the bases of the game (mages not casting anymore, seriously?)

Hope I made myself clear now because I have a French class to attend and cant keep this discussion at this moment... See you guys later

Quilue - Sanctuary

Sassaiki - Sanctuary wrote: »

I like the idea of reducing boss magic def to compensate for damage, that would only change pve and not reduce the effectiveness of aps classes. PvP wise the only class I would personally complain about is assassins, and that's really just because of stealth combined with long stuns/seals and aps. Any one of those things by itself wouldn't be an issue to me, but together they are incredibly lethal. An aps BM, while a massive damage dealer, can be seen from far away and there are plenty of options at that point.

Oh....I do have to admit that rank 9 archers completely baffle me. the +12 rank 9 bow seems to have higher base damage than any other rank 9 weapon in the game. combine that with decent aps and mass crit and I just don't know what to do with it.

EDIT: Qui play nice with the other kids. From: your pink pal.

o hai lol.

Archers have the highest phys base damage in the game because of their higher weapon attack and their option to use both attack charms and higher level arrows to boost damage.

However, they also attack the slowest in the game, and most targets have more pdef than mdef at endgame...unless people start refining their mag rings really high >>

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Alfrothul - Dreamweaver wrote: »

So I think we should discuss how much less channeling and less interval is needed to reach an equally fair dps.

/facepalm

What's with all the idiocy here.

Ok, I'll play along with this for a second. Give magic classes equal DPS to a melee.

To balance it, give melee classes the same range as magic classes.

I sure would like to 5aps at 30m. And while you're at it, give blademasters 2 one-shot ulti's that have a 30m range.

People need to use their freaking brains.

Melee get high dps because their range is like 2m.

Haden - Dreamweaver

Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »

/facepalm

What's with all the idiocy here.

Ok, I'll play along with this for a second. Give magic classes equal DPS to a melee.

To balance it, give melee classes the same range as magic classes.

I sure would like to 5aps at 30m. And while you're at it, give blademasters 2 one-shot ulti's that have a 30m range.

People need to use their freaking brains.

Melee get high dps because their range is like 2m.

agreed

In 1v1 pvp as long as the melee class can get their hands on a caster we have a chance. but if we dont, we're SOL.

Jellytoast - Sanctuary

I agree somewhat with your suggestion. I like in some of PWE's other games, there's a very small attack that auto casts if you don't do skills. It's ranged, quick channeling, and small amount of mp use. Just doesn't hit as hard.

Sometimes I wish there was something like this in PWI since sometimes I'll kill something and it'll have maybe 1k hp left, and I feel like it's a waste to cast another skill, but I don't have a normal attack.

Though I don't think it should be able to be insanely fast, cause that just doesn't make any sense. Just a "filler" type attack.

LeiMai - Raging Tide

You know what else would solve this problem? Smack the APS snobs upside the head and try to knock some sense into them.

Smack the APS snobs who don't actually have the APS to be considered APS DDs twice.

Problem solved b:bye the players are as much of a problem as anything else. I personally love having arcanes mixed into a squad.

Escorian - Dreamweaver

XEmpressX - Heavens Tear wrote: »

hehehe this made me LOL. Gm's trolling their own forums now..... there is no hopeb:cute

fuzzy is not a gm he is just a mod. and tbh what he says is right you dont need aps to finish nirvana.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Sun_Burn - Lost City wrote: »

a decent fix would be drastically reducing boss's magical defenses to compensate for the high damage output of aps classes.

That would solve pve issues, unno what could be done about aps in pvp tho..

That doesn't solve any PvE issues... reducing magic defense on bosses to balance out arcane classes won't really work... why? Because you're forgetting about the melee DDs that don't have -int gear. You're suggesting increasing the amount of damage arcanes deal without them having to do anything, while melee classes have to work to get -int gear in order to deal the amount of damage they do.

If magic defense is reduced it'll make it harder on barbs to keep aggro in "normal" squads, and still won't fix the the balance between arcanes and -int DD in PvE because they'll still output far more damage.

If you want balance then suggest something that will actually balance it, not just tip the scales in your side's favor.

In PvP... APS is easy enough to survive if you know how to use your genie and class skills, as long as you have decent gear and knowledge of your class you can kite and fight back and... you know.. actually win. It's not as broken in PvP as it is in PvE, just sayin'.

Mortal_Kiss - Heavens Tear

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

That doesn't solve any PvE issues... reducing magic defense on bosses to balance out arcane classes won't really work... why? Because you're forgetting about the melee DDs that don't have -int gear. You're suggesting increasing the amount of damage arcanes deal without them having to do anything, while melee classes have to work to get -int gear in order to deal the amount of damage they do.

If magic defense is reduced it'll make it harder on barbs to keep aggro in "normal" squads, and still won't fix the the balance between arcanes and -int DD in PvE because they'll still output far more damage.

If you want balance then suggest something that will actually balance it, not just tip the scales in your side's favor.

In PvP... APS is easy enough to survive if you know how to use your genie and class skills, as long as you have decent gear and knowledge of your class you can kite and fight back and... you know.. actually win. It's not as broken in PvP as it is in PvE, just sayin'.

There never be balance for all. We can just lower unbalances but ideal status never will be. And lower mag. def is good idea. Because caster also need channeling gear to cast faster, same as -int. gear.
And barb cannot hold aggro with -int. either.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Mortal_Kiss - Heavens Tear wrote: »

There never be balance for all. We can just lower unbalances but ideal status never will be. And lower mag. def is good idea. Because caster also need channeling gear to cast faster, same as -int. gear.
And barb cannot hold aggro with -int. either.

I'd prefer if barbs have a hard time keeping aggro from a class with HA than a class with AA... just sayin', you know.. sense they tend to have better survivability. What happens in a normal squad when an arcane class takes aggro from the barb/tank? They'll most likely die unless they have good gear. All this results in is arcanes having to watch their attacks and it'd make the run slower since they can't go all out. Obviously there will never be true balance in this game, but lowering magic defense? That's hardly a solution. It fixes the issues in no way, and won't even affect APS DDs simply because they'll still output more damage than an arcane. All it does is make things harder on normal squads that don't have people with -int gear.

Ling__Tong - Sanctuary

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

o hai lol.

Archers have the highest phys base damage in the game because of their higher weapon attack and their option to use both attack charms and higher level arrows to boost damage.

However, they also attack the slowest in the game, and most targets have more pdef than mdef at endgame...unless people start refining their mag rings really high >>

My six-second channeling/casting on my wizards says nay to your slowness. .15 aps per second? lulz

The issue really isn't PvP here - if you choose to fist/.. dagger? an opponent in pve, you're doing damage to a single target and you have to get there first anyway (2m range ftl lolz). For all intensive purposes I find PvP to be quite balanced. Wizards can do magic damage in a radius of up to 12?m I think, depending on what skill and cultivation you're lookin' at. 1v1 pvp is a little off kilter, but usually on servers like sanc the pk'ers are the r9/nirvana people anyway.

The auto attack isn't a bad idea - I use it on my mage in FW and it works fantastically and costs no MP. (chi is also much more temporary in FW, mind.) Plus mages in PW get gipped because we can't do spark macro like other classes because we have no auto attack feature to fill in the chi we need until we can spark.

5.0 APS is very attainable in PW, but -99 channeling is nigh impossible. I think a solution to this would be to increase all -3 % channeling items to -6 % and all -6 % to -9 %. If you had -9 % gears you would still need 11 gears with -channeling, far outpacing the required gears for -interval, but it would have much more of an affect on mages.