Sharding possibilities

MageFizban - Lost City · January 2011

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

lmao.. it takes hours and hours to get any decent pvp nowadays. When I was making videos I'd have to go pking for several days to put together a 10min video lmao. A whole lot of sitting around watching people trash talk from sz or bad matchups. I don't really consider it pvp when its me vs 3-4 people where any one of them would be a challenge in a 1v1. I could go on and on.. but pvp is basically dead on LC imo.

Mhmm. It's like either they get zerged or I end up having to tank 3 sins and an archer solo. Do I LOOK like Shinzoko to them?

Adroit - Lost City · January 2011

Evanera - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Aww..sad face

Should just remove this *PK code* LC has and just do everyone kill whoever you want kinda thing xP And not have to worry about some KoS ****. *OMG THIS GUY KILLED ME PLEASE SOMEONE KILL HIM FOR ME*

ya

But really the kos drama isn't the only problem. I left Essence for a while when I was making my vids to rpk.. which was fun, but really didn't get as much action as I was expecting. I'm guessing it has something to do with 99.9% of the stuff in this game is now done in instances/safezone, or the existence of sins, or perhaps the cash shop changes (mainly the crazy gold prices.. which makes charms and other pvp necessities much harder to come by).. or possibly the smaller population due to all the fail patches that come out.

I remember the good ol' days where you would pk for grind spots.. now that was pvp. It was almost too much pvp.. I would get like 10-15 mins of grind time in on average before an evil pker came by and started some trouble. Then I or someone in guild chat would call for help.. and before you could blink an eye there were two small armies there to duke it out. It wasn't uncommon for me to spend 5+ hours a day pking to help guildies or w.e. OMG I would give anything to lead my guild again and harass any SHINRA that dared step out of sz while I was around b:chuckle Come to think of it, when SHINRA fell apart.. my guild fell apart and the game was never really the same. Ah the good ol' days.

/end reminiscing

Evanera - Heavens Tear · January 2011

QQ I miss those days

PKing for zhen spots..PKing people zhenning and watching all the blue names die because the cleric was in PK mode..getting called a fat stupid asian in WC..haha

*stops*

Adroit - Lost City · January 2011

Evanera - Heavens Tear wrote: »

QQ I miss those days PKing for zhen spots..PKing people zhenning and watching all the blue names die because the cleric was in PK mode..getting called a fat stupid asian in WC..haha

*stops*

lol blue names. So glad I rolled a PvP server b:chuckle

Fleuri - Sanctuary · January 2011

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »

why dont we define diminishing returns?

for me, having diminishing returns means that F''(X) < 0

So, for example, here is an example of diminishing returns:

F(1): 10
F(2): 21
F(3): 42
F(4): 61

F''(3): -2

But do not worry, I got you a nice box of clues. I even opened a few of them for you:

* Damage in this game is not a continuous function.
* Most people think of first difference rather than second difference.
* Some people think in relative rather than absolute terms, when considering damage.
* 21, -26, 17, -2

Evanera - Heavens Tear · January 2011

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

lol blue names. So glad I rolled a PvP server b:chuckle

I only came here because my brother started on this server (this is my first MMO). If I knew what PvP and PvE meant I would have gone to LC more than likely. I need to go punch him now for that b:cry

Adroit - Lost City · January 2011

Evanera - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I only came here because my brother started on this server (this is my first MMO). If I knew what PvP and PvE meant I would have gone to LC more than likely. I need to go punch him now for that b:cry

lmao seems like alot of people don't know the difference when they first signed up. I actually knew the difference and went pvp just because I laugh at carebears.. I never really intended to play this game though lol.

DaKillanator - Raging Tide · January 2011

sorry if you already posted it, but what did you finally decide on for sharding?b:cute

I plan on having rank 8 endgame, any suggestions on how I should shard it?

I also have a warsoul of heaven atm, would you suggest sharding it with citrines or garnets? ty b:thanks

I_sage_i - Harshlands · January 2011

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

sorry if you already posted it, but what did you finally decide on for sharding?b:cute

I plan on having rank 8 endgame, any suggestions on how I should shard it?

I also have a warsoul of heaven atm, would you suggest sharding it with citrines or garnets? ty b:thanks

no offense but you should have gotten rank8 during the sale.(im assuming by your post you havent) but i heard theres gonna be another 1 when the new classes come out so you will have a chance

ps:id get rid of the warsoul and get a nirvana helm(if u can) if not you should shard it with whatever def is lower hp or pdef allways try to get a balance between them with pdef being a bit higher sometimes.

Rainesierr - Lost City · January 2011

Hey, i saw someone say that atk lvl doesnt give diminishing returns, and i just skipped over the rest, sorry. Maybe i don't understand what people are trying to say, but i know how the math works. If you make the initial jump from 0 to 30 atk lvl, you will deal a flat 30% more damage. but if you take that 30 for granted, and stack another 30 ontop of that for a total of 60, you will only deal 23.1% more damage than 30 atk lvls. i don't usually think about def lvl, seeing as i couldn't afford them anyway. but ill put my thoughts on paper, assume your attacker has 0 atk lvl. in that case a jump from 0 to 10 def lvl means you would take only 90% of normal damage. now, make the jump from 10 to 20 you should take only 88.8% of the damage you would with only 10 def lvls, by my quick calculations. maybe defense lvls don't work like that cause i don't know what would happen if you had more than 100 def lvl. im pretty sure i have atk lvls right though. with 60 atk lvl, you would deal 60% more damage than you would with 0, but only 23.1% more than what you would deal with 30 atk lvl. i think that means it suffers diminishing returns....

Evanera - Heavens Tear · January 2011

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

sorry if you already posted it, but what did you finally decide on for sharding?b:cute

I plan on having rank 8 endgame, any suggestions on how I should shard it?

I also have a warsoul of heaven atm, would you suggest sharding it with citrines or garnets? ty b:thanks

I've already noticed a vast difference in my survivability just by having 4 JoSD in my sleeves, my mind was already made up on going full JoSD, but with that, it just padded onto what I already wanted. So, JoSD in my top cape and sleeves.

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver · January 2011

Rainesierr - Lost City wrote: »

Hey, i saw someone say that atk lvl doesnt give diminishing returns, and i just skipped over the rest, sorry. Maybe i don't understand what people are trying to say, but i know how the math works. If you make the initial jump from 0 to 30 atk lvl, you will deal a flat 30% more damage. but if you take that 30 for granted, and stack another 30 ontop of that for a total of 60, you will only deal 23.1% more damage than 30 atk lvls. i don't usually think about def lvl, seeing as i couldn't afford them anyway. but ill put my thoughts on paper, assume your attacker has 0 atk lvl. in that case a jump from 0 to 10 def lvl means you would take only 90% of normal damage. now, make the jump from 10 to 20 you should take only 88.8% of the damage you would with only 10 def lvls, by my quick calculations. maybe defense lvls don't work like that cause i don't know what would happen if you had more than 100 def lvl. im pretty sure i have atk lvls right though. with 60 atk lvl, you would deal 60% more damage than you would with 0, but only 23.1% more than what you would deal with 30 atk lvl. i think that means it suffers diminishing returns....

if you hit 100:
0 attack levels -> 100
30 atatck levels -> 130
60 attack levels -> 160

for every attack level u gain 1 attack, no matter how many attack levels u already have
that doesnt happen with pdef.
if u add 1 pdef u dont have the same reduction in the damage recieved if u have 1k pdef or 2k pdef.

you may call what happens in attack levels diminishing returns;
however you will have to name what happens in pdef differently: great diminish returns or something

Fleuri, i dont really get what u want to say.
true, most variables arent real however u can use their function assuming a real variable

Rainesierr - Lost City · January 2011

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »

you may call what happens in attack levels diminishing returns;
however you will have to name what happens in pdef differently: great diminish returns or something

Yeah i can do math well, but the names of special rates and rules always eludes me. i went back and read some posts, including yours, and what you said makes sense. oh well, wasn't the first time i've been wrong, won't be the last b:laugh

Ursa - Dreamweaver · January 2011

wtf is wrong with ppl

attk or defense lvl don't have diminishing returns.
like thanos put it in those numbers, your attk gets boosted with a certain amount.
now i don't know what idiot came up with diminshing returns, cause in his brain he was expecting a 30% on top of that initial 30 ...
all attl lvl buffs or def lvl buffs apply to base dmg/def without any attk lvl buffs. adding 30 attk lvl after you already have 30 doesn't mean that you'll go from 130 dmg to 170 dmg (roughly). it will go from 130 to 160 which is how it should be. There is no diminishing returns, but there are a lot of nubs that have no idea about how game works and don't even bother to read.

MageFizban - Lost City · January 2011

Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »

wtf is wrong with ppl

attk or defense lvl don't have diminishing returns.
like thanos put it in those numbers, your attk gets boosted with a certain amount.
now i don't know what idiot came up with diminshing returns, cause in his brain he was expecting a 30% on top of that initial 30 ...
all attl lvl buffs or def lvl buffs apply to base dmg/def without any attk lvl buffs. adding 30 attk lvl after you already have 30 doesn't mean that you'll go from 130 dmg to 170 dmg (roughly). it will go from 130 to 160 which is how it should be. There is no diminishing returns, but there are a lot of nubs that have no idea about how game works and don't even bother to read.

If def lvls had constant returns, people with 100 def lvl would take 100% less damage than people with 0 def lvl. Which would mean if you have 100 def lvl over your opponents attack lvl, you'd take no damage. . .which clearly isn't the case.

Ursa - Dreamweaver · January 2011

uhm, no
problem is, the way the mechanics of the defense is calculated, you will always receive at least 10% of the dmg dealt by your opponent, even with the maxed out def lvl and defenses.
I have to admit that might be looked at as diminishing returns, but it's somehow a hard coded limitation...so yeah...we have to agree do disagree there, lol.
And i wasn't specific enough, I was referring to dmg lvl. My bad there. I haven't found any proof by anyone that Attk lvl suffers any diminishing returns

Belheldar - Harshlands · January 2011

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

It's difficult to calculate exactly when def lvl becomes worth it. How I understand atk lvl and def lvl, atk level is pretty basic.. 30atk level means 30% extra damage. On the other hand, defense level suffers from diminishing returns. 1 defense level could actually give you a 2-3% reduction, but 100 defense level would only give you about a 50% reduction.. and adding more will give you less and less increases to benefit. Now atk and def lvl actually cancel each other out.. so an attacker with 30 atk lvl against someone with 0 def level would do the same damage as an attacker with 60 atk lvl against someone with 30 def level. You can see how this could vary results being that def lvl gets full benefit when you have around the same def lvl as the atk level of an attacker, but having too much def lvl can actually lose its effectiveness.

You'd probably be pretty safe stacking a bit of defense level because everybody has jones blessings.. and with rank9 and atk level shards so easy to get.. its unlikely you'll even be able to get too much def. Honestly, I'd recommend that you go with jades of steady just because your gear is so good already. You're going to have tons of hp/pdef as is (especially when you improve refines and whatnot) and really your biggest threats are going to be other rank9 players.. which have lots of atk level.

I haven't really done the math, but its probably what I'd do if I had the budget/gear that you seem to have XD

hey im just wonderingn since im only learning this in class now, with a diminishing return equation what are you imputing as x and y values?

Adroit - Lost City · January 2011

Belheldar - Harshlands wrote: »

hey im just wonderingn since im only learning this in class now, with a diminishing return equation what are you imputing as x and y values?

I'm not entirely sure exactly what you're asking. Are you asking for basically the formula I'm using?

Joshcja - Sanctuary · January 2011

Belheldar - Harshlands wrote: »

hey im just wonderingn since im only learning this in class now, with a diminishing return equation what are you imputing as x and y values?

for releative diminished returns on a shard vs shard basis look at my post ealier

i dont know of any accurate phys/mag def scale chart sadly

Adroit - Lost City · January 2011

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

for releative diminished returns on a shard vs shard basis look at my post ealier

i dont know of any accurate phys/mag def scale chart sadly

Name one thing that doesn't suffer from "relative" diminishing returns in pwi.

Joshcja - Sanctuary · January 2011

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

Name one thing that doesn't suffer from "relative" diminishing returns in pwi.

nothing in pwi does not suffer relative diminished returns all i'm doing is giveing a way to show what shard at what point in a build will give the most bang for your buck

simple as that

Adroit - Lost City · January 2011

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

nothing in pwi does not suffer relative diminished returns all i'm doing is giveing a way to show what shard at what point in a build will give the most bang for your buck

simple as that

there is no point in even mentioning relative diminishing returns if everything in the game is the same. Pdef suffers from both "relative" and absolute diminishing returns.. which is why we refer to it having diminishing returns . Atk does not have absolute diminishing returns, so we say it does not suffer from diminishing returns.

Most bang for your buck? There are no other shards you can put in your armor that increase the damage you do.. so relating atk level to relative returns makes no sense at all. You are misleading people thinking that if they get a ton of atk level they won't be getting any more benefit, where they are getting the same benefit as they always have been.

Joshcja - Sanctuary · January 2011

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

there is no point in even mentioning relative diminishing returns if everything in the game is the same. Pdef suffers from both "relative" and absolute diminishing returns.. which is why we refer to it having diminishing returns . Atk does not have absolute diminishing returns, so we say it does not suffer from diminishing returns.

Most bang for your buck? There are no other shards you can put in your armor that increase the damage you do.. so relating atk level to relative returns makes no sense at all. You are misleading people thinking that if they get a ton of atk level they won't be getting any more benefit, where they are getting the same benefit as they always have been.

no phys def only suffers from absolute due to a higher % of current damage gained by each % of real def, attack level suffers from relative diminished returns

when have i ever said 100 attack would not give 100% of base? i've simply stated that looking at the relative damage they have diminished returns

fixed number adds suffer diminished returns relatively but will always grant a fixed amount

% based adds (def and mag def) have straight returns relativly but it takes more per % giveing diminished returns in the absolute

i have never argued absolute only relative because nobody has 0 attack level or phys def thus relative values are more effective than absolute in my opinion

not everything suffers relative diminising returns at the same rate...

as for the DOt being the only attack based shard yes that is true but its nice to see how much def your sacing for that less than 1% relative attack no?

Adroit - Lost City · January 2011

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

no phys def only suffers from absolute due to a higher % of current damage gained by each % of real def, attack level suffers from relative diminished returns

when have i ever said 100 attack would not give 100% of base? i've simply stated that looking at the relative damage they have diminished returns

fixed number adds suffer diminished returns relatively but will always grant a fixed amount

% based adds (def and mag def) have straight returns relativly but it takes more per % giveing diminished returns in the absolute

i have never argued absolute only relative because nobody has 0 attack level or phys def thus relative values are more effective than absolute in my opinion

not everything suffers relative diminising returns at the same rate...

as for the DOt being the only attack based shard yes that is true but its nice to see how much def your sacing for that less than 1% relative attack no?

I haven't done the math, but I've understood that pdef/mdef suffer from absolute diminishing returns as well as your relative diminishing returns (lol duh.. so does everything in this game). It's like talking about how people are physically different but always adding in that we all have 2 eyes, a nose, and 2 ears etc as part of the description. Why don't we focus on things that can change, and only mention the number of eyes we have when someone doesn't have 2 eyes. I'm not gonna play this game and talk about "relative" diminishing returns. When I, or likely anyone else says that something has diminishing returns, we are referring to absolute.

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver · January 2011

Jos, ca u give an example of a quantity that doesnt have diminishing returns (according to ur theory)?
also a quantity that has increasing returns?

(doesnt have to be in-game)

Joshcja - Sanctuary · January 2011

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Jos, ca u give an example of a quantity that doesnt have diminishing returns (according to ur theory)?
also a quantity that has increasing returns?

(doesnt have to be in-game)

compound interest..you always get a set% of what you currently have....actually interval gear works on the same principal so ya theres your in game example

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

I haven't done the math, but I've understood that pdef/mdef suffer from absolute diminishing returns as well as your relative diminishing returns (lol duh.. so does everything in this game). It's like talking about how people are physically different but always adding in that we all have 2 eyes, a nose, and 2 ears etc as part of the description. Why don't we focus on things that can change, and only mention the number of eyes we have when someone doesn't have 2 eyes. I'm not gonna play this game and talk about "relative" diminishing returns. When I, or likely anyone else says that something has diminishing returns, we are referring to absolute.

the relative diminished return on phys/mag def is tiny... its almost a straight return when you look at current damage prevented vs cost rather than total % reduced vs cost...while hp has a sharp diminished return relative to total hp from armor refine (less so on arcane than on a heavy but its still there) but a straight return at cost per point of hp

i gave an example of the math earlier in the thread along with a set of formulas...really easy ones to compare sharding options early in the thread

Adroit - Lost City · January 2011

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

compound interest..you always get a set% of what you currently have....actually interval gear works on the same principal so ya theres your in game example

the relative diminished return on phys/mag def is tiny... its almost a straight return when you look at current damage prevented vs cost rather than total % reduced vs cost...while hp has a sharp diminished return relative to total hp from armor refine (less so on arcane than on a heavy but its still there) but a straight return at cost per point of hp

i gave an example of the math earlier in the thread along with a set of formulas...really easy ones to compare sharding options early in the thread

*rolls eyes* we are just going to go in circles. You hold on to your "relative" diminishing returns and w.e you want. I've (and several others) have explained why you are wrong (besides the 1 exception in this game.. interval.. although that is not diminishing in any way.. so doesn't really apply to your idea either). Anyway, I've wasted enough time arguing with a wall.

MageFizban - Lost City · January 2011

What is math? And wtf is a straight return? Linear returns. ijs
Just because Yulk curled up and died in a hole doesn't mean another BM has to take his place.

The damage reduction is based on the % reduced. You cannot take pdef/mdef without looking at % reduction. AFAIK there is no strict correlation to oh I have 5k more pdef so I take xxx less damage.

Btw, I didn't bother reading any of Josh's posts because his arguments didn't make much sense and I'm too lazy to decipher pseudo-math/logic.

Fleuri - Sanctuary · January 2011

MageFizban - Lost City wrote: »

You cannot take pdef/mdef without looking at % reduction.

Yes you can! OMG!

Percent reduction is such a meaningless number. The number that should be mattering for you is your percent damage taken.

For example: An attack hits you for 1000 damage, and if you then change your percent damage reduced by 1%, how much damage would you have taken?

If you originally had 10% damage reduction, your new damage taken would be 989. If you originally had 50% damage reduction your new damage taken would be 980. If you originally had 20% damage reduction , your new damage taken would be 950.

(And, furthermore, if you originally had 10% damage reduction that means that the raw attack damage was 1111 where if you originally had 80% damage reduction the raw attack damage that would do 1000 points to you would have been 5000.)

The problem here, though is that the game does not tell you your percent damage taken, so its misleading.

Zenorx - Harshlands · February 2011

Evanera - Heavens Tear wrote: »

lol everything about this game/site is so fail. I can't send him a message because apparently he doesn't exist.

The following users were not found:
Paramedic

/facepalm

Im pretty sure he rage quit after the rep sale and deleted his guides b:chuckle

Although I think hes still on the fourms

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