Sharding possibilities

Evanera - Heavens Tear

Okay so, I've been basically busting my brains lately as to what kind of shards to put in my end game armor. Wait..since when is something end game here? Anyways..I've left myself with 3 options:

A) Jade of Steady Defense shards
Citrine gems
C) Garnet gems

Here's my current set of equipment. My pants and top will be +7 when I can gather up enough mirages to try refining again.


So, I was thinking of going full JoSD. I have the money for it, but with the DoD market on our server..the price is shooting up and people are buying past 8.5m. They are getting increasingly harder to buy as well since so many people are wanting them right now. I could be patient enough to buy them and shard at least my r9 pieces, and put something else in my cape maybe.

I was hoping to shard full JoSD in my r9 armor and cape, but like I said that may not be worth it considering how long it would take. Might be better off sharding something else in some pieces.

I'd like some responses based on what is best for my build, and I want your reasoning for it. I currently have enough damage to do whatever I want, so please don't suggest attack shards. I want opinions as to what shards would increase my survivability the most.

I.e: If you want to suggest 4 Citrine gems in cape, 4 garnet gems in wrists, and 4 Jades in top/pants each, explain why.

http://www.pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=73054ef450a660b5

That's me right now.

Adroit - Lost City

you are sage right (sage stone barrier?).
Also curious what you plan to do the most often.. so like if you were full buffed alot of the time you wouldn't need garnets in the least.. you know what I mean :P

Ursa - Dreamweaver

well, it all depends on how much u plan on going with refines.
If u go over 8k HP , if I remember correctly, our archer nerd friends calculated that over that HP pool +2def lvl stones are the best.
Now your mag def buffed will be 15k...your pdef full buffed 11.
I say go with pdef shards, cause those r8 and r9 bows at +10 will hurt like a ****. The more pdef the merrier. At 15k pdef u gain another 5% phys dmg reduction... not much, but not to little either.

Evanera - Heavens Tear

Yea, I'm sage.

I don't really PK anymore, PK on this server has gone to rubble now. So the only actual PvP I do is the PK tournament, DT, cube when I'm really bored to camp a room, and TW. So, on a TW standpoint I would mostly have at least BM buff.

I'm not really sure about all these *calculations* people have been throwing out lately. I've heard people (who know what they're talking about) say that after 7k HP on an arcane it's better to go def level stones, and some are saying 8k HP. Now, it'll be a while until I can gather up enough coin to +10 my stuff, but at some point it would be nice to have that. And with that said, not sure if it would be wise to put citrine gems in at all if I do that since it would be a long term goal.

I'll wait until someone can show me the math related to this or whatever.

Adroit - Lost City

It's difficult to calculate exactly when def lvl becomes worth it. How I understand atk lvl and def lvl, atk level is pretty basic.. 30atk level means 30% extra damage. On the other hand, defense level suffers from diminishing returns. 1 defense level could actually give you a 2-3% reduction, but 100 defense level would only give you about a 50% reduction.. and adding more will give you less and less increases to benefit. Now atk and def lvl actually cancel each other out.. so an attacker with 30 atk lvl against someone with 0 def level would do the same damage as an attacker with 60 atk lvl against someone with 30 def level. You can see how this could vary results being that def lvl gets full benefit when you have around the same def lvl as the atk level of an attacker, but having too much def lvl can actually lose its effectiveness.

You'd probably be pretty safe stacking a bit of defense level because everybody has jones blessings.. and with rank9 and atk level shards so easy to get.. its unlikely you'll even be able to get too much def. Honestly, I'd recommend that you go with jades of steady just because your gear is so good already. You're going to have tons of hp/pdef as is (especially when you improve refines and whatnot) and really your biggest threats are going to be other rank9 players.. which have lots of atk level.

I haven't really done the math, but its probably what I'd do if I had the budget/gear that you seem to have XD

Evanera - Heavens Tear

See here's the thing. I read a long post that seemed to have had credibility ( think it still does).
And that post basically said the exact opposite you just did, saying that Attack level has diminishing returns and def level doesn't. So this is why I'm extremely confused as to how this **** works. I can maybe understand the math behind it if I put my mind to it, but not when there are 2 groups of people stating exact opposites are right etc etc. I just can't make a direct decision because there hasn't been a *confirmed* answer yet.

Though, I'm pretty sure that everyone can agree, that with the Jones' Blessing, it's smart to get yourself to at least 30 defense level. I could achieve that while sharding 2 pieces of my armor with JoSD. So, I think the question is what should I shard my other two pieces with? Currently I have, 3 citrine gems, 1 garnet gem left (was planning to merch them) and I think 7 DoDs to play around with. Yea.. 7 DoDs in 3+ weeks of gathering, see how long this would take? lol. I don't cash shop, so I would prefer to not spend an absurd amount of money on each DoD, but I'm getting the feeling that if I want them, I'll need to spend that extra money and farm more. But seeing as how I can't have an endless supply of cash going through, I may need to resort to other shards just because of how long it would take to get 40+ DoDs. However, there may be a reason that cit/garnet gems are better then too many DoDs for me anyway..so let's see.

Adroit - Lost City

I know what you mean about the costs. As far as how atk lvl and def lvl work.. its pretty easy to test. Go take off your weapon so you have constant damage.. find some target and use gush with and without jones blessing. You'll see that it gives you exactly a 30% increase.. which would show you that atk level doesn't suffer from diminishing returns. Any psychic out there can tell you that with white voodoo and 100+ def level they are nowhere near immune to damage. Doesn't exactly prove what I'm saying, but it definitely proves that other source of yours is wrong.

If you decide that you dont want to do the jades of steady because of cost.. it really is just personal preference. It all depends on what you feel kills you the most and what buffs you think you'll have most often etc etc. I try to have very similar hp/pdef/mdef when I'm self buffed.. as that is how I am most the time in world pvp. If you'd rather try to calculate what would be most worthwhile you can check this link for an effective health calculator and try to figure it out. Good luck with w.e you choose XD

Evanera - Heavens Tear

Hmm yea that's actually a good point. Makes a bit more sense now just looking at it from that perspective.

I'd say archers stomp on me in TW the most, anyone else is laughable unless I'm ganked (which you can do almost nothing about if unlucky).

I'll check out the EHC link now though.

Edit: Why is that link a random video? First I thought you were trolling me :P but judging by the responses in that thread there seems to have been an actual EHC there.

Adroit - Lost City

lulz wow.. well it used to have a pretty extensive spreadsheet. On the last page it looks like he's willing to give you the spreadsheet if you pm him, you might wanna try that if you are interested :P

Evanera - Heavens Tear

lol everything about this game/site is so fail. I can't send him a message because apparently he doesn't exist.

The following users were not found:
Paramedic

/facepalm

Adroit - Lost City

Evanera - Heavens Tear wrote: »

lol everything about this game/site is so fail. I can't send him a message because apparently he doesn't exist.

The following users were not found:
Paramedic

/facepalm

Try Paramedic - Dreamweaver. I'm pretty sure you need to include the server as well

Evanera - Heavens Tear

huh..weird..didn't have to do that before.

Works now though, thanks.

Adroit - Lost City

Evanera - Heavens Tear wrote: »

huh..weird..didn't have to do that before.

Works now though, thanks.

Ya.. they change things without telling you the important differences. Glad its working though. I'm curious what you decide, lemee know what you end up doing xD

Evanera - Heavens Tear

Yup, sounds like PWI to me b:chuckle

And yea, I'll post here I guess. Would be nice to get more *math wizards* in here to give opinions though.

LXianghual - Heavens Tear

I cannot post what would be better for your build as I do not know how high you will refine your armor, or necklace (if you were to say +10 for example, then I'm pretty confident JoSD is the way to go).

However, I can give you the direct link to the Effective HP calculator, or you can just check Enrage forums in the guide section. You can then put the numbers in and see for yourself.

Evanera - Heavens Tear

Well, me upgrading other things is still long away. I think my necklace will be the last thing I upgrade, as I might be getting the 3rd stage cube necklace (since it's end game, why not?) But that is a 500m+ item right there, and I would much rather get the rank 9 weapon first. So it will be a LONG time before that happens. So, let's keep my cube necklace at +7. My next goal after sharding my armor properly will be to refine my armor to +10. So you can base it off that I guess? I'm leaning towards having 3/4 pieces be fitted with JoSD, and my 4th be fitted with cit or garnet gems. Or what would you suggest (anyone).

Evanera - Heavens Tear

Put 4 JoSD in my sleeves. Some nice person sold me a bunch of DoDs yesterday b:victory
Did you know it costed 3m to put 1 jade in? b:cry I thought it was only 1m lol. Thinking of putting JoSD in the rest of my armor as well instead of any citrine/garnets.

Adroit - Lost City

Evanera - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Put 4 JoSD in my sleeves. Some nice person sold me a bunch of DoDs yesterday b:victory
Did you know it costed 3m to put 1 jade in? b:cry I thought it was only 1m lol. Thinking of putting JoSD in the rest of my armor as well instead of any citrine/garnets.

/likes this idea b:victory

Joshcja - Sanctuary

attack level gives diminishing returns in the abstract

1st atack level gives 1/100
2nd gives 1/101

so yes each does at 1% of base they do not add 1% of total

Adroit - Lost City

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

attack level gives diminishing returns in the abstract

1st atack level gives 1/100
2nd gives 1/101

so yes each does at 1% of base they do not add 1% of total

You sure?
I just did a few tests without my weapon on against the hens by the auctioneer in lost city.

gush (no jones or frenzy) = 6488

calculations
gush + frenzy (6488 * 1.2) = 7785.6
gush + jones (6488 * 1.3) = 8434.4
gush + both (6488 * 1.5) = 9732

Actual
gush + frenzy = 7785
gush + jones = 8434
gush + both = 9732

Maybe I'm just tired, but my math is showing it does not suffer from diminishing returns at all.. I suppose the change in expected and actual could be hidden by rounding.. but at 50 atk level I would expect some discrepancy if there really is diminishing returns.

MageFizban - Lost City

As a wiz, I'd say you should shard jades. Also, if money weren't an issue, I'd always prefer to shard vit stones over cit gems because of the extra defense from the vit.

But who knows, rumor has it (*cough* who's spreading these rumors anyway? me?) that +20 vit stones are coming out during Genesis expansion, so THAT might give JoSD a run for their money.

Evanera - Heavens Tear

ZZzzzZzzz not spending 75m per shard on armor lol...well..guessing 20 vit stones take 3x 10 vit stones. Not sure how many people would do that..

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

You sure?
I just did a few tests without my weapon on against the hens by the auctioneer in lost city.

gush (no jones or frenzy) = 6488

calculations
gush + frenzy (6488 * 1.2) = 7785.6
gush + jones (6488 * 1.3) = 8434.4
gush + both (6488 * 1.5) = 9732

Actual
gush + frenzy = 7785
gush + jones = 8434
gush + both = 9732

Maybe I'm just tired, but my math is showing it does not suffer from diminishing returns at all.. I suppose the change in expected and actual could be hidden by rounding.. but at 50 atk level I would expect some discrepancy if there really is diminishing returns.

...

try it with jones on, then record....then try try with frenzy you will get 20/130 or 15.3% more damage than you got with jones alone not 20%

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

You sure?
I just did a few tests without my weapon on against the hens by the auctioneer in lost city.

gush (no jones or frenzy) = 6488

calculations
gush + frenzy (6488 * 1.2) = 7785.6
gush + jones (6488 * 1.3) = 8434.4
gush + both (6488 * 1.5) = 9732

Actual
gush + frenzy = 7785
gush + jones = 8434
gush + both = 9732

Maybe I'm just tired, but my math is showing it does not suffer from diminishing returns at all.. I suppose the change in expected and actual could be hidden by rounding.. but at 50 atk level I would expect some discrepancy if there really is diminishing returns.

x attack levels give u x% more damage
what he says is that if u have x attack levels and add one ur damage will not be increased by 1%

for example, if ur base damage is 100:

0 attack lvl: 100
1 attack level: 101 -> ur damage is increased by 1%
2 attack levels: 102 -> ur damage is increased by 2% compared to ur base damage but it is increased by 1/101 compared to ur damage with 1% attack level.

i wouldnt really call it diminishing returns and besides, it's the only way to add damage through sharding

Thrasymachus - Sanctuary

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

...

try it with jones on, then record....then try try with frenzy you will get 20/130 or 15.3% more damage than you got with jones alone not 20%

Isn't that what he did? If what you say is true, then his damage with both would have been ~300 less than what he reported. That definitely wouldn't be rounded away.

I can't really see how diminishing returns on attack level or defense level could work that way. It seems like it would make the boost dependent upon the ratio between the size of the +level and the number of +level adds. So if you had a single +30 attack level, you'd do more damage than someone with 3 +10 attack levels. In fact, you'd do about 3% less damage in the latter case than the former if this scenario of diminishing returns were true, and the +attack level adds that % to your existing damage.

Alternatively, if the + attack level return is diminished in the way you suggest, but there is no difference between 3 +10 adds and 1 +30 add, then each successive level would suffer from ~1% diminishing returns from the previous level. A + 10 attack level would actually give you 9.58% increase, a +20 would be 18.32%, +30 would be 26.35%, and so forth.

Further, if your original scenario of diminishing returns were true, then it would matter in what order you put on your attack levels. In your own scenario, if you add the +20 from frenzy once you've already got the jones blessing, then you really get 15.3846%, however, if you get the +20 from frenzy first, then add the jones blessing, you really get 30/120, or 25%. This is a discrepancy of .3846%. This discrepancy becomes larger the bigger then difference between the adds. Suppose you have a +20 and a +80 (completely imaginary and arbitrary, I know). If you put on the +20 first, and then add the +80, you end up with .20 + 80/120 = .8667. However, if you add the +80 first, then add the +20, you end up with .8 + 20/180 = .9111. That's almost 5% difference in damage depending solely on what order those adds are stacked. Could you imagine changing your stats just by taking stuff off and putting it back on?

Evanera - Heavens Tear

Hmm..what Thras said actually makes sense..

It would make even more sense if people say that when you add attack shards, the damage goes up less overall, but when people test with frenzy and JB, it doesn't seem so. What? I just woke up and have no idea if what I said just made sense..but I'll go test in a bit.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

my base damage w/o weapon = 915

tested on a venomous goul outside of arch= 824 per hit w/o jones or frenzy
= 1070 per hit with only jones (30% over base)
= 1236 with both (15% over jones)

amazing

(edit: fixed)

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear

The dev. should give players examples how these stones works. I really don't understand why is not some tutorial for it. I saw the book of worldcraft with 700 pages about game and how it works. PW has nothing. Then every1 will have another opinion, how it works.

Thrasymachus - Sanctuary

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

my base damage w/o weapon = 915

tested on a venomous goul outside of arch= 824 per hit w/o jones or frenzy
= 1070 per hit with only jones (30% over base)
= 1236 with both (15% over frenzy)

amazing

I'm going to assume that you meant "jones" where you wrote "frenzy" that I've highlighted above in red.

1236 is 150% of 824. Interestingly, 1070 is not 130% of 824, but 129.85%. It's probably due to rounding, but I find it interesting because 1071 is closer to 130% without going over, while 1072 is just over 130%. At any rate, assuming that the mentioned discrepancy is due to rounding, your evidence does not show diminishing returns. It shows that each attack level adds an additional 1% of your base damage to your dealt damage. Extrapolating from the trend, if you were to add another 20 attack levels, you'd add 165 damage, which is exactly the amount of damage you reported as being added with the addition of frenzy on top of jones. I fail to see how adding the exact same amount of damage for each successive attack level can be construed as diminishing returns.

I can see how it would appear to be diminishing returns. If you have no attack level, and lets say your damage was 100, then adding +30 would increase your damage to 130, giving you a 30% damage increase. Adding another +30 would bring you to 160, increasing your damage 23% from what you had with the first +30. But claiming that this is diminishing returns is misleading because it assumes that the increase in successive attack levels ought to be proportional to your previous damage including previous attack levels. This would actually give increasing returns as you add attack levels. Once you reach +70 attack levels, going to +71 would give you 2x the damage going from +0 to +1 attack level would.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The dev. should give players examples how these stones works. I really don't understand why is not some tutorial for it. I saw the book of worldcraft with 700 pages about game and how it works. PW has nothing. Then every1 will have another opinion, how it works.

seriously...why do you still post here?

you have absolutely 0 usefull knowledge about the game and your posts reek of Q.Qfail nobody likes you (god i pitty them if they do) and you patents wanted a puppy but got you from the pound by accident

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Thrasymachus - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'm going to assume that you meant "jones" where you wrote "frenzy" that I've highlighted above in red.

1236 is 150% of 824. Interestingly, 1070 is not 130% of 824, but 129.85%. It's probably due to rounding, but I find it interesting because 1071 is closer to 130% without going over, while 1072 is just over 130%. At any rate, assuming that the mentioned discrepancy is due to rounding, your evidence does not show diminishing returns. It shows that each attack level adds an additional 1% of your base damage to your dealt damage. Extrapolating from the trend, if you were to add another 20 attack levels, you'd add 165 damage, which is exactly the amount of damage you reported as being added with the addition of frenzy on top of jones. I fail to see how adding the exact same amount of damage for each successive attack level can be construed as diminishing returns.

I can see how it would appear to be diminishing returns. If you have no attack level, and lets say your damage was 100, then adding +30 would increase your damage to 130, giving you a 30% damage increase. Adding another +30 would bring you to 160, increasing your damage 23% from what you had with the first +30. But claiming that this is diminishing returns is misleading because it assumes that the increase in successive attack levels ought to be proportional to your previous damage including previous attack levels. This would actually give increasing returns as you add attack levels. Once you reach +70 attack levels, going to +71 would give you 2x the damage going from +0 to +1 attack level would.

doublepost sorry

point is by the time you get to frenzy+jones adding a DoT will give 1/150 total damage or a .6% increase to their total damage

1% of base=/= 1% damage