Lol you're not gonna like this

Sneakret - Heavens Tear · January 2011

So a rather annoying idea just popped into my head from boredom of reading another QQ thread.

Take a min here and think of oh say... (example only) the vampire queen boss in nirvana instance. Usually, you clear the foxes, and move on to the boss wherein you're squad's likely aps oriented players begin their lazy spark macro and auto away till you can move on.

Now, you've got a good image going in your head, but add this in this time. The boss decides every 5-8 seconds that "oh hey I'm being hit like crazy", so what does the boss logically do?? She moves away about 5 meters, in a fashion many of us would consider "kiting".
(summary bosses move to new location every 5-8 seconds)
Suggestion in place of timing

Trawne - Lost City wrote: »

a better version of this would be to have the game calculate how much damage the boss is taking at a given period in time. if the boss takes more than say... 100k over 2 seconds time, it runs 5-6 meters away.

HEY HOLLY ****, your aps members (please continue to picture this in your mind) are now running around like mad trying to stay on that boss and melee at a target that runs from them.

In the mean time, your wizzy/cleric/veno/archer/psychic/mystic is now immensely useful as HEY! they are casting strings of spells off like mad and just rolling in the numbers.

At the same time, the REAL (omg sneak said it) BARB in your squad that's used to pulling cata's has enough time to run in and Flesh Ream that ho and OMG due to the lack of aps whacking is actually holding that aggro like a beast.

Viola, your squad mechanics have suddenly returned in a flash.

Now, let's talk numbers, 5aps bm has 4 seconds to hit, that's 15-20 hits before the boss moves away provided he's pro and on that boss asap( ZOMG he might have a reason to actually hit Heavens Flame and benefit the squad now, god forbid) keep in mind 15-20 hits is still quite a fair amount of damage, but the ranged and casting classes aren't exactly paling in comparison now as they don't have to stop casting for anything but seals.

You want an answer that doesn't involve your aps changing in mechanics : answer found!
You want an answer that makes range classes desirable in farming: answer found!
You want an answer that makes barbs server their original purpose: answer found!
You want an answer that balances the classes back out for PvE : answer found!
You want an answer that assists in preventing macro afk'ers: answer found!
You want to get rid of the half-assed "random aggro" as a fix: answer found!

Comment, criticize, theorize, compare, contrast - have at it but I suggest you read the entirety of the post to avoid looking like you can't comprehend what was just laid out in front of you.

xcliqz · January 2011

We already have that kind of boss in nirvana. The chicken gives aoe fire. That makes ppl move away, especially when he cast it on aps character, everyone will run off cause they are inside the fire range.

Evict - Heavens Tear · January 2011

The 2.22aps Sage Sin finds no solace.

Sneakret - Heavens Tear · January 2011

In reply to Xc: Believe me I thought of that as well, but I'm referring to it as a general implication to the game mechanics. For the chicken, the players scatter, meaning that yes everyone must spread away and drag it off.

This is more of a field coverage for multiple bosses in effect, not solely the 1 boss that you have a random chance of getting, people don't deny 5aps characters because of the chicken slowing them down a tad, but they do deny non aps members because of their lack of speed in the rest of the instance.

Edit for Evi: lol@sig evi xD, aps is aps, no argument there, but i guess it might assist for CoTD users that just wanna skill spam away

Renza - Raging Tide · January 2011

its a nice idea, but somehow i doubt the devs can be bothered to try implement such an idea, reason being that they prob just dont know how, apart from archer mobs that run away 2-3 times when the battle begins, they have it in coding for an archer mob, can they put it into a melee boss? possibly, its just, will they listen to players not on the CN version? doubtful

Sneakret - Heavens Tear · January 2011

For Renza:

Renza - Raging Tide wrote: »

will they listen to players not on the CN version? doubtful

That, I'm afraid is out of our jurisdiction entirely unfortunately, the wanmei CN players have a real input on their gameplay, they actually dev around the players there. In essence we are playing w/e they find desirable with loopholes into US marketing for things like packs.

It's sad to know that no matter how valid a point made may be, it will never realize recognition from the US player base. It ends up in a que at a board meeting where the issue is brought up (assuming we push for it immensely) it is then decided that they have other things to work on that take priority and the idea's are then shoved back into a storage bin never to be seen again. Propositions from here fail, end of story b:cry

that aside we still make these kinds of threads xD

Paramedic - Dreamweaver · January 2011

barb wouldnt be able to hold aggro from ranged classes

Sneakret - Heavens Tear · January 2011

For Paramedic: Mm that is a valid point, but a separate thought on that being that when a sin for example does too much damage and steals aggro he or she is told to monitor their damage in adverse to simply nuking away.

The amount of time between the bosses moving would vary the aggro ratio's largely, so a fair majority of it comes down to what's reasonable and what amount of time allows for creation of that balance.

Joshcja - Sanctuary · January 2011

Sneakret - Heavens Tear wrote: »

So a rather annoying idea just popped into my head from boredom of reading another QQ thread.

Take a min here and think of oh say... (example only) the vampire queen boss in nirvana instance. Usually, you clear the foxes, and move on to the boss wherein you're squad's likely aps oriented players begin their lazy spark macro and auto away till you can move on.

Now, you've got a good image going in your head, but add this in this time. The boss decides every 5-8 seconds that "oh hey I'm being hit like crazy", so what does the boss logically do?? She moves away about 5 meters, in a fashion many of us would consider "kiting".
(summary bosses move to new location every 5-8 seconds)

HEY HOLLY ****, your aps members (please continue to picture this in your mind) are now running around like mad trying to stay on that boss and melee at a target that runs from them.

In the mean time, you're wizzy/cleric/veno/archer/psychic/mystic is now immensely useful as HEY! they are casting strings of spells off like mad and just rolling in the numbers.

At the same time, the REAL (omg sneak said it) BARB in your squad that's used to pulling cata's has enough time to run in and Flesh Ream that ho and OMG due to the lack of aps whacking is actually holding that aggro like a beast.

Violla, your squad mechanics have suddenly returned in a flash.

now, let's talk numbers, 5aps bm has 4 seconds to hit, that's 15-20 hits before the boss moves away provided he's pro and on that boss asap( ZOMG he might have a reason to actually hit Heavens Flame and benefit the squad now, god forbid) keep in mind 15-20 hits is still quite a fair amount of damage, but the ranged and casting classes aren't exactly paling in comparison now as they don't have to stop casting for anything but seals.

You want an answer that doesn't involve your aps changing in mechanics : answer found!
You want an answer that makes range classes desirable in farming: answer found!
You want an answer that makes barbs server their original purpose: answer found!
You want an answer that balances the classes back out for PvE : answer found!
You want an answer that assists in preventing macro afk'ers: answer found!
You want to get rid of the halfassed "random aggro" as a fix: answer found!

Comment, criticize, theorize, compare, contrast - have at it but I suggest you read the entirety of the post to avoid looking like you can't comprehend what was just laid out in front of you.

and then the barb loses aggro because lets face it jones + HS/rank8/ a god damn level 80 bow will rip aggro

oh so will every other real DD

Evict - Heavens Tear · January 2011

Sneak! Log into game, buy Bride/Groom packs and marry me for MQ. Right now.

Sneakret - Heavens Tear · January 2011

@ Josh : What would you propose as a counter measure then? After repeated inquiry it's fairly obvious that they don't intend to increase the threat value of aggro skills and the only suggestion I've yet to see as valid is a timed bramble effect on bosses to assist in barbs holding.

@Evi: lol man I am not paying for bride/groom packs regardless of how much I want to see sneak in a pretty white wedding dress

Quilue - Sanctuary · January 2011

Bosses already seal and usually lunge for cleric when aggro resets.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 · January 2011

Most of these countermeasures would make bosses overly difficult for non-aps mellee DD that don't play the game with their characters twitching violently on screen.

Evict - Heavens Tear · January 2011

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Most of these countermeasures would make bosses overly difficult for non-aps mellee DD that don't play the game with their characters twitching violently on screen.

No solace! b:surrender

Sneakret - Heavens Tear · January 2011

For Quilue: That is quite true, and is why I added in a small adjustment near the bottom. I'd like to believe that the random aggro was more or less a half baked fix to cause a little more scatter effect and make for ex: the barb want to be ready to ream to pull away from a cleric. At the same time, the boss difficulty varies by having that random aggro effect so perhaps simply toning down the random aggro reset timing would be an adequate solution there.

For Astrelle: That is a very valid point as well, which is why a time between the boss kiting effect would need to be made, for example if 5-8 seconds is the ideal to stop a 5aps member, but 30 seconds is ideal for someone w/o interval ie: a casual player, then somewhere in between results in a re-balancing.

I love the valid points brought up, would be nice to see if you guys would suggest counter points as well since I have to leave for a bit b:chuckle

Lingzi - Lost City · January 2011

YAY !! THE ANSWERS R FOUND !!!!

WILL GMs FIX THINGS UP????

NO!!!! THEY ONLY DO WATEVER PWCN DOES !!!!

THERES NO POINT IN SUGGESTING ANYTHING HERE !! GMs IGNORES U !!!!

SO WHAT BENEFIT WILL YOUR THREAD BRING TO US?

NOTHING !!!

WHY?!!!

BECOS GMs WONT DO ANYTHING !!!!
WHY DIDNT THEY DO ANYTHING??? AFTER ALL, THESE ARE AWESOME IDEAS !!!

BECOS THEY JUST WONT DO IT !!!, ITS JUST THE WAY IT IS !!! b:victory b:victory b:victory

SO DOES THAT MAKE YOUR THREAD POINTLESS????

YES !!!

Ruxal - Harshlands · January 2011

You underestimate how much damage a sin/bm 4/5 aps can put out in that space of time. As it is in fc I am using lvl 11 skills on first boss (where melee have to run from fire) and 4th boss (where they have to run from slash) and still can't take agro from them.

I don't know how r8 will change things for me in terms of being a viable dd but certainly the damage output of a sin/bm @ 4/5 aps is rediculous, furthermore a sin/bm has better survivability and they both can benefit from the bloodpaint buff. Say we as wizzies take agro what healing buff do we get per hit?

This game is SEVERELY melee biased with respect to PVE. Now in PvP its not so bad if its bad at all but remember PVE is where you level and make money. Many will say wel raise an alt but I find it unfair that I should raise a class I do not like in order to fund a class I really want to play.

As far as your idea is concerned it sounds good but the one true solution is to nerf the max aps obtainable period. Perfect world developers are afraid to take control of the game they made which makes them in my eyes game managers as opposed to game developers.

Joshcja - Sanctuary · January 2011

Sneakret - Heavens Tear wrote: »

@ Josh : What would you propose as a counter measure then? After repeated inquiry it's fairly obvious that they don't intend to increase the threat value of aggro skills and the only suggestion I've yet to see as valid is a timed bramble effect on bosses to assist in barbs holding.

@Evi: lol man I am not paying for bride/groom packs regardless of how much I want to see sneak in a pretty white wedding dress

class balance only matters in pvp for that well...nerf the hell outa sins

for pve

120 mill or less (in a rep sale) to get a 5 aps archer/sin with fcc fists about the same out of sale with deicides...is roughly the same cost as a herc, do what 90% of pwi did pre packs and make a...farming alt...they can be made for less than i spent on this bm's pants or most casters spend on a weapon

this is not a 5 aps concept...wizzies/psys just suck nut at farming in pve always have always will

Regenbogen - Lost City · January 2011

idea of moving bosses was brought up so many times...and it is a good idea IMO...

but there is a problem when sins just grab a bow and can still deal some damage with a good bow...

bms would be somehow obsolete and will QQ so much about getting less invites for nirvana runs...b:chuckle

so bosses need to be more tricky could be done with a aoe destroys everything within 25m in a blink of time...

casters&archer are out of range...

Sneakret - Heavens Tear · January 2011

Ahahahaha I love you absolutely rtarded few that show up for trolling and criticism alone but have no valid suggestions/countermeasure's of your own.

I'll leave out specifics for lack of desire to be called on flamebaiting but w/e. I've had my entertainment for now, the point was already validly stated that obviously we have a very small impact on the actual game.

For my own purposes (maybe some psych homework b:quiet) I created the thread with the intent of watching for how long it would take for the fools to come out along with some other factors that not need be mentioned. The ones that have no actual thought process involved in anything they do because once they are angry it is what they are limited to, at that point you are no longer a human, just some animal waiting to be put down. Amusing to say the least though.

cya all in game..... err at some point....

Aurores - Heavens Tear · January 2011

Lingzi - Lost City wrote: »

RAGE, RAGE, RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE

/translation b:bye

number1karthus · January 2011

Random bramble would be better.

TesterLife - Archosaur · January 2011

xcliqz wrote: »

We already have that kind of boss in nirvana. The chicken gives aoe fire. That makes ppl move away, especially when he cast it on aps character, everyone will run off cause they are inside the fire range.

Charms *****, Charms and HP food.

Those wimpy little fire dot's don't even make me move my dude unless they figure out how to by-pass the charm, and if that happens I got second wind, Apoc's, and HP food to cover the last few seconds until charm restores full hp

(Seriously, unless the dude tanking the chicken moved the bird I never moved my dude.

the flame)

Trawne - Lost City · January 2011

a better version of this would be to have the game calculate how much damage the boss is taking at a given period in time. if the boss takes more than say... 100k over 2 seconds time, it runs 5-6 meters away.

Sneakret - Heavens Tear · January 2011

For Trawne: Awesome idea, would you mind if I quoted and moved to the initial post?

Regenbogen - Lost City · January 2011

@Sneakret: like stated in my previous post sins can still use a bow so they wont take a caster just for 1boss but a lot of sins instead of bms.

you can also consider solutions like making the aoe mobs immun to physical damage but that might be a problem for average squads

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary · January 2011

Kite mobs/bosses annoy the living **** out of Barbs, my friend. And they annoy the living **** out of Mage classes too, when a Barb is tanking, because they have to run. The only class that wouldn't care much would probably be an Archer, and they would most likely end up with aggro, and possibly tanking/dieing/QQing it to death. Then they would care, I guess.

Sneakret - Heavens Tear · January 2011

To Regen: Mm I understand this implication as well, but if the boss were always physically immune in the way that bosses are in CoA (I think that's the wed. event) then it would become a large issue of participation where at some point you may as well have all your phys classes go stand in a corner because there's nothing they can do support wise even to assist their squad. Perhaps temp immunities back and forth between magic and phys immune.

For Serra: Well, that one I have to take as opinion sorry, I've played a barb before, and I have more fun actually fighting a boss that moves, makes it far more entertaining on my end, mobs though suck as they would for any melee class that has to kill x number of a monster that wont hold still. You are given the choice to not go after certain mobs though, a boss in a sense should retain challenge and require more focused play that's what it is there for.

sig1043a · January 2011

Another simple fix to APS would be short duration physical (melee/ranged) damage reflect buffs that last maybe 10s and repeat every 30s. Non-dispell-able if the devs are feeling particularly evol.

There are so many ways to limit APS its not even funny. The simple fact that akf APS is a valid end-game tactic is pretty laughable in itself.

Want another idea? How about bosses that will insta-kill everyone within 50m if the dps exceeds a certain level, forcing the players to monitor and limit the damage output.

Another idea? Randomly teleport people to a previous room, forcing them to run back to the boss fight.

Another one? Long term stun or massive slow (aoe or single) whenever the boss has aggro stolen. Basically would have to let the barb build up aggro and would force other players to limit their dps so as to not steal aggro.

Yet another? Have a boss do an AoE every x number of damage hits taken, meaning slower big hits are much better than faster small hits. Or instead of an aoe, have the boss do a godly buff on itself that makes it invincible for a while or makes it go into a death frenzy, basically wiping out the group.

More? How about a boss that goes into stealth and everyone looses the target and then the boss has a chance to randomly assassinate a target followed up with a big aoe, forcing players to spread out so that the entire group does not wipe.

The list goes on...and these are just boss changes. Could do a number of things player-wise to limit APS, such as adding a fatigue bar.

Trawne - Lost City · January 2011

Sneakret - Heavens Tear wrote: »

For Trawne: Awesome idea, would you mind if I quoted and moved to the initial post?

go ahead b:cute

Serrinity - Sanctuary · January 2011

Wow. That actually sounds like a great idea. O.o Hopefully it will be considered. I would think this would take a while to program as said, but it balances almost everything.

Lol you're not gonna like this

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