an observation on archer
Comments
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we are not here to flame each other, but rather to discuss various tactics and curtsey's that all new archers should know.
zb. should archers be responsible for drawing mobs or not? i used to keep a zeal with me for just that purpose but have since stopped. now whenever a veno or drawer lures a mob i usually just stun it with stunning arrow to give a little bit of time for the barb to flesh ream it (meow attack) and even if i don't stun it it pulls agro away from the veno and again protects my squishy party members.0 -
tehiro, that's what I do as well and still no one QQ'ed about it. I guess they don't even have the right to since we're saving the puller.0
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Vit is horrible for an archer, I'll do some digging later.
the hp per vit ratio isn't good
archers are forced into LA so they are already defensively mediocre
you are sacrificing damage as a DD class
in runs with a competent team you will not have to worry about aggro stealing
if you have 150 base vit and are pulling aggro from pure dex archers, they suck
even if you build survivability, you are still easy to kill
so basically, if you have invested into vit you:
are now slightly harder to kill. yay.
have gimped both your natural damage and crit rate. gg.
have become ignorable in pvp. even more gg.
have become weaker than pure dex archers in pve. why would i ever want you in a squad? especially since i play a cleric, if i'm tasked with healing, i don't want you focused on anything else but DDing
the only justifiable place to add more vit imo is in PvP, where the extra few hundred hp can help you survive long enough for your charm to tick or a kill, but I would never add anywhere close to 150 whooping vit, that's overkill on yourself. (even then it's stretching it because of the broken APS mechanic with bms and sins)0 -
lmaonade1xp wrote: »Vit is horrible for an archer, I'll do some digging later.
the hp per vit ratio isn't good
archers are forced into LA so they are already defensively mediocre
you are sacrificing damage as a DD class
in runs with a competent team you will not have to worry about aggro stealing
if you have 150 base vit and are pulling aggro from pure dex archers, they suck
even if you build survivability, you are still easy to kill
so basically, if you have invested into vit you:
are now slightly harder to kill. yay.
have gimped both your natural damage and crit rate. gg.
have become ignorable in pvp. even more gg.
have become weaker than pure dex archers in pve. why would i ever want you in a squad? especially since i play a cleric, if i'm tasked with healing, i don't want you focused on anything else but DDing
the only justifiable place to add more vit imo is in PvP, where the extra few hundred hp can help you survive long enough for your charm to tick or a kill, but I would never add anywhere close to 150 whooping vit, that's overkill on yourself. (even then it's stretching it because of the broken APS mechanic with bms and sins)
I really wish people would think, rather than just repeat these tired ideas they got from someone else:
Archers get 76% of the base hp that a barb gets, from vitality. We do not get their shapeshifting bonus, but we are ranged, so we quite often do not need to get hit. And, my evasion is high enough, even with my vit build, that in melee range I typically do not get hit maybe 25% of the time. So, from an overall incoming dps point of view, my tradeoff is: I am often ranged, they get shapeshifting. (Evasion works nicely when you have enough health to survive the hits.)
My tradeoff is 1911 health vs. a potential increase of 28% ranged dps and a potential 5% melee dps increase (edit: in other words, I have lost 18% off my peak ranged damage, and I have lost 7% off of my crit rate). Put differently, my ranged dps, including my crit rate, is 22% lower than it would be if I had moved 147 vit points to dexterity. Basically, that means that my ranged dps with jones blessing is slightly higher than my dps would be without jones and a pure build. And on most bosses my melee dps already greatly exceeds my ranged dps. And the percent changes on my health almost exactly match my ranged dps percent changes...
I am ignorable in pvp in because I do not have rank 9 nor high refines. My vit does not change that. Also, I am permanently blue named (except for the temporary red name I have sometimes gotten in TW, or pink name I have sometimes gotten in warsong), so PvP is not much of a priority for me. That said, when I have engaged in PvP in something approaching normal odds, I have done well enough.
And, ok, yes, I am sacrificing damage per hit and damage per second. And, yes, I would like for higher survivability than what I currently have. But I do not feel that I am sacrificing my total damage, because I tend to stay alive in situations that kill other archers (note that this does not include archers with much better defenses than I have, but reducing my vitality would not help there, either).
Meanwhile, competence is not the only factor. I may not have a rank 9 bow, but I do have a rank 8 bow. And I have a constant 1.05 attack rate whenever I want to use it. And, just like any other archer, I often enough get chains of critical hits. Not everyone has the kind of gear they would need to hold aggro from me.
Even if I ignore my damage range, for most archers, all I need to pull aggro from them is a chain of crits when the other archer has a chain of non-crits. How does this possibility mean that they suck? Do you mean that crit chance less than 100% means you suck? Meanwhile, I sometimes get chains of weak hits, and I sometimes get chains of heavy hits.
And, of course "easy to kill" is meaningless, since it is totally situational and non-specific. A barb with 40k health can be easy to kill, sometimes. But I am not always in those kinds of situations.
Finally, I do not really care if you want me in squad, or not. I all too frequently have to turn down whispers from friends that want me to run nirvana, or bh, or whatever else with them, because I am only one person and I am often enough doing something else with other people. If you wanted me in squad, you would be another person I have to turn down, which would make me feel a bit bad.0 -
Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »I really wish people would think, rather than just repeat these tired ideas they got from someone else:
Archers get 76% of the base hp that a barb gets, from vitality. We do not get their shapeshifting bonus, but we are ranged, so we quite often do not need to get hit. And, my evasion is high enough, even with my vit build, that in melee range I typically do not get hit maybe 25% of the time. So, from an overall incoming dps point of view, my tradeoff is: I am often ranged, they get shapeshifting. (Evasion works nicely when you have enough health to survive the hits.)
My tradeoff is 1911 health vs. a potential increase of 28% ranged dps and a potential 5% melee dps increase (edit: in other words, I have lost 18% off my peak ranged damage, and I have lost 7% off of my crit rate). Put differently, my ranged dps, including my crit rate, is 22% lower than it would be if I had moved 147 vit points to dexterity. Basically, that means that my ranged dps with jones blessing is slightly higher than my dps would be without jones and a pure build. And on most bosses my melee dps already greatly exceeds my ranged dps. And the percent changes on my health almost exactly match my ranged dps percent changes...
I am ignorable in pvp in because I do not have rank 9 nor high refines. My vit does not change that. Also, I am permanently blue named (except for the temporary red name I have sometimes gotten in TW, or pink name I have sometimes gotten in warsong), so PvP is not much of a priority for me. That said, when I have engaged in PvP in something approaching normal odds, I have done well enough.
And, ok, yes, I am sacrificing damage per hit and damage per second. And, yes, I would like for higher survivability than what I currently have. But I do not feel that I am sacrificing my total damage, because I tend to stay alive in situations that kill other archers (note that this does not include archers with much better defenses than I have, but reducing my vitality would not help there, either).
Meanwhile, competence is not the only factor. I may not have a rank 9 bow, but I do have a rank 8 bow. And I have a constant 1.05 attack rate whenever I want to use it. And, just like any other archer, I often enough get chains of critical hits. Not everyone has the kind of gear they would need to hold aggro from me.
Even if I ignore my damage range, for most archers, all I need to pull aggro from them is a chain of crits when the other archer has a chain of non-crits. How does this possibility mean that they suck? Do you mean that crit chance less than 100% means you suck? Meanwhile, I sometimes get chains of weak hits, and I sometimes get chains of heavy hits.
And, of course "easy to kill" is meaningless, since it is totally situational and non-specific. A barb with 40k health can be easy to kill, sometimes. But I am not always in those kinds of situations.
Finally, I do not really care if you want me in squad, or not. I all too frequently have to turn down whispers from friends that want me to run nirvana, or bh, or whatever else with them, because I am only one person and I am often enough doing something else with other people. If you wanted me in squad, you would be another person I have to turn down, which would make me feel a bit bad.
lol just because my ideas match with someone else's you think i take ideas from them? you don't think that i would actually have ran the numbers, and tested the character in person? I'm not yulk, I don't theory craft without the experience to back it up.
hp works with evasion: you'll have high hp regardless of vit, an archer with 3 vit (assuming "+5" status as you are) will still have an upwards of 5-6k hp
and imo you do not need the extra ~2k hp to survive better, since archers already have the tools to do so: range, demon wingspan, winged shell, 79, etc.
And if you're chaining crits to pull aggro from non-vit archers, then don't use that in an argument, that is a statistic based purely off of luck(math) and cannot be counted on every time. (for example, if you and the non-vit archer both recieve a stroke of crit chain luck, then of course the non-vit archer would have the higher aggro).
And I take back my "easy to kill" argument.
and w/e works for you i guess, in my experience, pure (almost) dex kills faster and therefore takes less hits, just my philosophy. And i kite just fine (most of my fights take place in the air), so I personally do not find extra hp attractive.0 -
omg...lmaonade1xp wrote:that is a statistic based purely off of luck(math)101 Sage Sin*/Archer
100 Demon BM*/Barb
96 Demon Cleric/Sage Seeker
95 Demon Wiz/
94 Sage Veno
85 Psy/80 Mystic
And a handful of other alts, all 79 and under.
*Pre RB level0 -
Jone's Blessing R8 has made offensive capabilities excessive. Seriously...barbs are getting two shot by some of the better-geared archers. You really think some stat build will make a difference? Let me say this again: EVERYONE HAS R8
The archer vs archer game has really become more of who was lucky enough to hit first than anything else. In TW this is dependent on formation and squad movement more than individual skill or builds.Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
Qui: b:dirty0 -
Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »Jone's Blessing R8 has made offensive capabilities excessive. Seriously...barbs are getting two shot by some of the better-geared archers. You really think some stat build will make a difference? Let me say this again: EVERYONE HAS R8
The archer vs archer game has really become more of who was lucky enough to hit first than anything else. In TW this is dependent on formation and squad movement more than individual skill or builds.
this is true =[Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »omg... I may have to sig that! b:laugh
is this a good thing or a bad thing? b:avoid0 -
lmaonade1xp wrote: »this is true =[
is this a good thing or a bad thing? b:avoid
Was just funny. XD It's an oxymoron... Since Math isn't Luck. XD101 Sage Sin*/Archer
100 Demon BM*/Barb
96 Demon Cleric/Sage Seeker
95 Demon Wiz/
94 Sage Veno
85 Psy/80 Mystic
And a handful of other alts, all 79 and under.
*Pre RB level0 -
Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »Was just funny. XD It's an oxymoron... Since Math isn't Luck. XD
yeah i know b:laugh, just decided to throw that in there for lulz0
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