Armour Sharding

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No_peas - Heavens Tear
No_peas - Heavens Tear Posts: 34 Arc User
edited January 2011 in Blademaster
Hi there,

have just hit lvl70 and bought my new TT armour. What should i really be sharding with, HP, PDEF or MDEF?

I realize our mdef is pretty lame, but even if i sharded with 4 immac Sapphires in each piece of armour (chest, legs, boots, wrists), that would still only give me an extra 672 mdef, on top of what is already cr@p.

immac citrines will give an extra 800hp, which would be handy i guess, but still not that much.

Garnets will give an extra 848 on top of pretty good pdef stats already.

So those are the numbers, not taking into account helm, and robe, 'cos i dont really know what to use there.

Can anyone suggest what would be best pls.

I like to do a bit of tanking, am primarily fist, with axes for HF
Post edited by No_peas - Heavens Tear on
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  • Okeano - Harshlands
    Okeano - Harshlands Posts: 4,943 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    Citrines.
  • flamingahole
    flamingahole Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    What Okeano said.

    Diminishing returns means that the extra phys.def from garnets won't make much of a difference and, as you said, sapphires will only add a bit to mediocre mag.def; although with magic marrow it'll be a decent boost. Extra HP, however, is always nice.
    You have three chances to guess the reason for the post above.
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    hp or mdef. Sharding sapphire gems in end-game gear is perfectly acceptable.
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • No_peas - Heavens Tear
    No_peas - Heavens Tear Posts: 34 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    Thnx all for the info. Can you explain what diminishing returns means though? i have not heard the term before and am not sure how it applies here.
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    Diminishing returns.... it's like... you need to do more to get the same amount of benefit after the first time.

    Lets say... you work 8 hours. For the first hour you get paid $10. The second hour you get paid $9, the third you get paid $8 and so fourth. You're putting in more and more effort to get less.
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • flamingahole
    flamingahole Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »
    hp or mdef. Sharding sapphire gems in end-game gear is perfectly acceptable.

    Good to know. I've only ever gotten my archer past 90 but my BM was getting close before I took a break. I seem to recall that the common consensus among the BM community was 'citrines or gtfo' back in the day but I could be mistaken. Then again, I suppose that for end-game you'd get your HP from refines more than shards.
    No_peas - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Thnx all for the info. Can you explain what diminishing returns means though? i have not heard the term before and am not sure how it applies here.

    Diminishing returns is one of those things that many people just know but is somewhat difficult to explain. Michael_Dark had a good comparison above; just replace work with defense and the money with % reduction and it'll make more sense.
    You have three chances to guess the reason for the post above.
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    flamingahole wrote: »
    Good to know. I've only ever gotten my archer past 90 but my BM was getting close before I took a break. I seem to recall that the common consensus among the BM community was 'citrines or gtfo' back in the day but I could be mistaken. Then again, I suppose that for end-game you'd get your HP from refines more than shards.

    Yeah, well back in the day immaculates were... really expensive. Jolly Jones was the only thing bringing relatively cheap shards.... G6 for like 250k or whatever, which would make immaculates like 5m ea. I would suggest sharding G8 citrines over G8 sapphires... but with sapphire gems being less expensive than citrines, getting 100 mdef per stone is worth it for pvp, especially if you're a hybrid. Pdef isn't something a BM is lacking... and when you're passing 15-16k unbuffed... more pdef won't help. Conversely when you're past 8-9k hp that mdef is going to make a bigger impact. At endgame if you can't easily hit 10k mdef/mdef with mmarrow, you're really unbalanced.
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • No_peas - Heavens Tear
    No_peas - Heavens Tear Posts: 34 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    thnx again. i guess my last question is, when does diminishing returns really begin to impact? like over 10k pdef?

    Once i get to 10k pdef unbuffed (i think i am close atm, not sure), should i then start to focus on mdef/hp?
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    armor has deminishing returns on paper but in reality each% gained reduces the damage you take more than the % before it (well in the abstract)

    for example say you have 70% damage reduction and are about ot add 1% you will not take 1% less damage than you did before but rather 3% as your affecting only the remaining % not the total...so phys and mag def are closer to straight returns as you get an increasing benifit at an increasing cost

    hp shards on the other hand give a set amount of hp meaning the more of them you have the higher your armor is refined and the more vit you have the less each hpshard does for you % wise

    bm's tend to shard hp not due to a false concept of diminishing returns but because def works as a multiplier off your base hp to set survival, and bm's already have high phys and mag resists with heavy armor and mag orns + marrows

    so at mid levels you gain more by upping the base your def works off of (hp) as your not refineing armor yet

    at higher levels with max refine armor def level/mag def and even phys def become more usefull than hp
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Okeano - Harshlands
    Okeano - Harshlands Posts: 4,943 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »
    hp or mdef. Sharding sapphire gems in end-game gear is perfectly acceptable.

    *Slaps* pay attention Michael, he's asking about his TT70 >_>.
  • No_peas - Heavens Tear
    No_peas - Heavens Tear Posts: 34 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    Great, thanks for all the info. Glad to see not every topic falls into a flame war on this forum b:thanks
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »
    *Slaps* pay attention Michael, he's asking about his TT70 >_>.

    Yeah, but how long does 70 armor last? A week? xP

    I was answering his question as it pertains to end-game. We all know that's the only time important decisions about gear really matters. b:pleased
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • flamingahole
    flamingahole Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    No_peas - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Great, thanks for all the info. Glad to see not every topic falls into a flame war on this forum b:thanks

    Funny thing is, I made this account fully intending to just randomly flame people while trying to decide whether I should start playing again but I haven't really gotten around to it. I figure there's enough hate in these forums without another flaming *******.
    You have three chances to guess the reason for the post above.
  • LXianghual - Heavens Tear
    LXianghual - Heavens Tear Posts: 48 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    You actually believe in that diminishing returns BS Micheal? I thought you were smarter than that.

    Good on Joshcja for not being a simple-minded sheep by the way.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Men are moved by two levers only: fear and self interest.
  • Bearie - Harshlands
    Bearie - Harshlands Posts: 20 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »
    hp or mdef. Sharding sapphire gems in end-game gear is perfectly acceptable.


    mayyybeee as a demon bm but even that is very frowned upon. sage marrow haveing 10k mdef and 7kpdef.....sharding magic shards would be...dumb
  • Devoted - Lost City
    Devoted - Lost City Posts: 3,634 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    Bearie - Harshlands wrote: »
    mayyybeee as a demon bm but even that is very frowned upon. sage marrow haveing 10k mdef and 7kpdef.....sharding magic shards would be...dumb

    ಠ_ಠ whothefkru?
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    LXianghual - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    You actually believe in that diminishing returns BS Micheal? I thought you were smarter than that.

    Good on Joshcja for not being a simple-minded sheep by the way.

    b:cuteb:cuteb:cute

    can i has cookie?
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Okeano - Harshlands
    Okeano - Harshlands Posts: 4,943 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    Devoted - Lost City wrote: »
    ಠ_ಠ whothefkru?

    Your buttbuddy rome, who else.
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    LXianghual - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    You actually believe in that diminishing returns BS Micheal? I thought you were smarter than that.

    All I did was define what diminish returns meant. Learn to read. Learn to comprehend. Moron.

    Re-read:
    No_peas - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Thnx all for the info. Can you explain what diminishing returns means though? i have not heard the term before and am not sure how it applies here.
    Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »
    Diminishing returns.... it's like... you need to do more to get the same amount of benefit after the first time.

    Lets say... you work 8 hours. For the first hour you get paid $10. The second hour you get paid $9, the third you get paid $8 and so fourth. You're putting in more and more effort to get less.


    And increasing your pdef or hp while ignoring your mdef IS following a path of diminishing returns. Especially if you're a LA hybrid and pvp.
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    armor has deminishing returns on paper but in reality each% gained reduces the damage you take more than the % before it (well in the abstract)

    for example say you have 70% damage reduction and are about ot add 1% you will not take 1% less damage than you did before but rather 3% as your affecting only the remaining % not the total...so phys and mag def are closer to straight returns as you get an increasing benifit at an increasing cost

    hp shards on the other hand give a set amount of hp meaning the more of them you have the higher your armor is refined and the more vit you have the less each hpshard does for you % wise

    bm's tend to shard hp not due to a false concept of diminishing returns but because def works as a multiplier off your base hp to set survival, and bm's already have high phys and mag resists with heavy armor and mag orns + marrows

    so at mid levels you gain more by upping the base your def works off of (hp) as your not refineing armor yet

    at higher levels with max refine armor def level/mag def and even phys def become more usefull than hp

    You don't seem to understand the 'diminishing returns' concept either.

    At some point gaining more hp, gaining more pdef, or gaining more mdef is going to be cheaper or more expensive than the other.

    When you factor the cost of obtaining higher defenses, there is certainly a diminishing return aspect.

    Going from Immaculates to Perfects to Vit stones is a diminishing return right there.

    Immaculate is 1m and 50hp. Perfect is what, 5m and 62 hp. 5x the price to get 12 more hp per shard. Vit stones are 30m. They give a BM 150hp per citrine. That's 30x the price of an Immaculate and you're only getting 3x the hp.

    Defense levels are too. 1 diamond of dragon for 1 defense level, 3 diamons of dragons for 2 defense levels. Once you're maxed out on those, you want more defense levels you need to go Rank 9.

    And, you're all freaking idiots if you don't factor in cost to your equations... or you have unlimited merch or cash shop funds.
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • LXianghual - Heavens Tear
    LXianghual - Heavens Tear Posts: 48 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »
    You don't seem to understand the 'diminishing returns' concept either.

    At some point gaining more hp, gaining more pdef, or gaining more mdef is going to be cheaper or more expensive than the other.

    When you factor the cost of obtaining higher defenses, there is certainly a diminishing return aspect.

    Going from Immaculates to Perfects to Vit stones is a diminishing return right there.

    Immaculate is 1m and 50hp. Perfect is what, 5m and 62 hp. 5x the price to get 12 more hp per shard. Vit stones are 30m. They give a BM 150hp per citrine. That's 30x the price of an Immaculate and you're only getting 3x the hp.

    Defense levels are too. 1 diamond of dragon for 1 defense level, 3 diamons of dragons for 2 defense levels. Once you're maxed out on those, you want more defense levels you need to go Rank 9.

    And, you're all freaking idiots if you don't factor in cost to your equations... or you have unlimited merch or cash shop funds.

    I was personally refering to this "diminishing return":
    Defense does not have diminishing returns. If you work out the math, 100 extra pdef adds the same amount of survivability whether you have 1k pdef or 20k pdef. The definition of diminishing returns is that the incremental benefit for something becomes less the more of the thing you get. Since the incremental benefit remains the same, there is no diminishing returns. Most people mess this up because they're looking at the damage reduction from defense. The number you need to be looking at is damage transmitted, 1 - DR. Do that and you'll see it's linear.

    If you mean that as a percentage of total, the benefit becomes smaller the higher you go, then yes, it does diminish the higher you go. But the exact same thing happens to hp. Adding 100 hp if you have 1k hp increases your total 10%. Adding 100 hp if you have 10k hp only increase your total 1%. So again, there is no difference between the two stones from a percent of total standpoint.

    As has been posted, which is better depends on your current hp and def. For a straight-up no-healing fight (e.g. PvP), and especially if you take into account price, adding hp ends up usually being more beneficial than adding defense. The threshold point at which defense becomes better than hp comes at very low defense and very high hp, enough so that probably 90%-95% of characters benefit more from extra hp.

    If you're being healed (e.g. tanking) this changes a bit, as the higher defense amplifies the effect of the heals / causes less strain on your charm. How much this favors defense shards is much harder to gauge though, as it depends on the rate at which you're being healed.
    (from Solandri, http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=779912&page=2)

    I personally refer to what you are saying as cost efficiency but yeah, whatever.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Men are moved by two levers only: fear and self interest.
  • Devoted - Lost City
    Devoted - Lost City Posts: 3,634 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    LXianghual - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I was personally refering to this "diminishing return": (from Solandri, http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=779912&page=2)

    I personally refer to what you are saying as cost efficiency but yeah, whatever.

    Yes, it is cost efficiency.

    Is damage reduction calculated from the percent reduction or the actual defense? If it's based on the percent how accurate of a value does pw use? If it's simply the percent those last 2 sapphire shards may be worthless.
  • LXianghual - Heavens Tear
    LXianghual - Heavens Tear Posts: 48 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    Devoted - Lost City wrote: »
    Yes, it is cost efficiency.

    Is damage reduction calculated from the percent reduction or the actual defense? If it's based on the percent how accurate of a value does pw use? If it's simply the percent those last 2 sapphire shards may be worthless.

    Well I just did a test using Eyes of Observation, and from the results I would say that damage reduction seems to be calculated from percentage reduction. I simply took a pdef belt from my noob wiz and used an Eye of Observation with the beld on and off to see what my Survivability Index (SI) is. The belt has only 134 pdef on it, no hp or vit. My SI did not change whether the belt was on or off.

    With belt on: pdef: 14727 (78%) mdef: 3976 (49%) SI: 75663
    With belt off: pdef: 14404 (78%) mdef: 3976 (49%) SI: 75663

    Personally I think your definition of diminishing returns for defenses is wrong Micheal, Solandri's definition would be correct.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Men are moved by two levers only: fear and self interest.
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    LXianghual - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I was personally refering to this "diminishing return": (from Solandri, http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=779912&page=2)

    I personally refer to what you are saying as cost efficiency but yeah, whatever.

    Well certainly you can't look at one without taking the other into consideration unless it's just pure fantasy numbers. Even the progression of shards themselves are a perfect example of diminishing returns unless you completely ignore materials/supplies to craft them and cost. But then that's not really looking at the whole picture.
    The definition of diminishing returns is that the incremental benefit for something becomes less the more of the thing you get. Since the incremental benefit remains the same, there is no diminishing returns.

    This is where he's wrong. At some point it becomes more and more difficult to obtain that it becomes not worth the trouble of getting it. Just this last sentence in any context is a statement of diminishing returns.

    That 100 pdef at 1k or 100 pdef at 20k certainly will increase survivability the same, but to get that extra 100 pdef at 20k isn't worth obtaining and it isn't going to cost you a compromise somewhere else.

    At the point where you start sacrificing one for the other the problem is even worse.
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    Sorry, I just saw this...
    LXianghual - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Personally I think your definition of diminishing returns for defenses is wrong Micheal, Solandri's definition would be correct.

    I hate to quote Wikipedia but...
    Diminishing Returns wrote:
    This concept is also known as the law of diminishing marginal returns or the law of increasing relative cost.

    Once you pass the peak of cost-effectiveness, you're heading into diminishing returns.

    You're right, strictly speaking the forumla for defense has no diminishing returns.

    So with that being said. Hurry up and hit 100k pdef on your BM. Doesn't matter if it's possible or not, get there. There's nothing stopping you.... oh wait...

    /thread
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • LXianghual - Heavens Tear
    LXianghual - Heavens Tear Posts: 48 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    Just because there is no diminishing returns on defenses does not mean I would promote anyone to try to hit 100k pdef, that would be plain stupid. You need to balance hp, defenses, and defense level to maximise your survivability.

    I just wanted to make sure people do not get the wrong idea on diminishing returns on defenses.

    Umm, I guess you would want to just stick to flawless shards if you really wanted to be cost effective?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Men are moved by two levers only: fear and self interest.
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    LXianghual - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Just because there is no diminishing returns on defenses does not mean I would promote anyone to try to hit 100k pdef, that would be plain stupid.

    Which is why I was being so silly.

    Ok, I'll rephrase myself for you. There are diminishing returns on the defenses that you wish to use on your character that you actually play the game with instead of the numbers you want to crunch that are mostly meaningless.

    I just wanted to make sure people do not get the wrong idea on diminishing returns on defenses.

    In theory, but not application. In application you cannot just get whatever you want without time and effort or money.

    Umm, I guess you would want to just stick to flawless shards if you really wanted to be cost effective?

    And I do, because the bonuses offered are diminishing returns.

    Fully buffed I have 15k hp and 11k pdef/mdef mmarrowed. I'm happy with mediocre gear and being just 'average' with immaculate shards. b:bye
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    *amused by dark digging his own grave* seriously stop at 6 ft

    diminishing returns does not exist for phys or mag def untill you hit the cap fully buffed or with buddah's gaurd

    yes it is common sense to go for a balance at endgame

    gonna go back to laughing at bm's who vit stone +10 armor now
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • No_peas - Heavens Tear
    No_peas - Heavens Tear Posts: 34 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    ok looks like we might be looking at semantics here.

    1 person is saying diminishing returns, the other is saying cost efficiency, where they are both actually the same thing.

    So putting garnets into HA gear isn't going to net you lower pdef gains, it just costs a hell of a lot more to get a little bit more, so is better to go with lower pdef, with lower $$, than to spend lots of $$, for only a little more pdef.

    It looks like the general concensus is, that it is better to shard with HP shards if your not refining to high levels (who does in their 70's).
  • Devoted - Lost City
    Devoted - Lost City Posts: 3,634 Arc User
    edited January 2011
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    Just to clarify since people LOVE semantics.


    Explicit diminishing returns is simply the notion that the more you get of object X the less effective each additional object X is.

    Implicit diminishing returns is the notion that the more of object X you get requires increasing amounts of object Y to obtain an additional object X.

    Ie. The more defense level you get the less effective each additional defense level is. This is explicit diminishing returns.

    The more damage reduction you get means the more expensive each additional damage reduction percentage is. Each additional percent is actually a lot more effective than the last but since the price increases rapidly there are implicit diminishing returns on each additional percent.

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