Armour Sharding

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Comments

  • No_peas - Heavens Tear
    No_peas - Heavens Tear Posts: 34 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Brilliant Devoted, that explained it very clearly. Thanks everyone for your help on this topic. I think it should be stickied b:cool
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    *amused by dark digging his own grave* seriously stop at 6 ft

    /facepalm

    I'll requote it for you since you'll probably miss it the first time:
    Devoted - Lost City wrote: »
    Just to clarify since people LOVE semantics.


    Explicit diminishing returns is simply the notion that the more you get of object X the less effective each additional object X is.

    Implicit diminishing returns is the notion that the more of object X you get requires increasing amounts of object Y to obtain an additional object X.

    Ie. The more defense level you get the less effective each additional defense level is. This is explicit diminishing returns.

    The more damage reduction you get means the more expensive each additional damage reduction percentage is. Each additional percent is actually a lot more effective than the last but since the price increases rapidly there are implicit diminishing returns on each additional percent.
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »
    Diminishing returns.... it's like... you need to do more to get the same amount of benefit after the first time.

    Lets say... you work 8 hours. For the first hour you get paid $10. The second hour you get paid $9, the third you get paid $8 and so fourth. You're putting in more and more effort to get less.

    correct example is work 1 hour for 10$ 2 for 20$ 3 for 30$

    your example applys to def level and HP not to phys def or mag def makeing your innital statement flawed and your subsequent *** covering has been amuseing

    your at 7 ft btw
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • No_peas - Heavens Tear
    No_peas - Heavens Tear Posts: 34 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    lol, me thinks my earlier comments about this thread becoming a flame war may have been a bit hastie...b:laugh
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    correct example is work 1 hour for 10$ 2 for 20$ 3 for 30$

    your example applys to def level and HP not to phys def or mag def makeing your innital statement flawed and your subsequent *** covering has been amuseing

    your at 7 ft btw

    You're an idiot. I don't expect you to grasp the concept of the larger picture.

    Are you at 20k hp and 15k mdef/pdef yet? No? Why not? I know a few who are. Gogogo.

    You can't talk about cost effectiveness without running into the reality of diminishing returns.

    And please, school me about LA hybrid being superior to full HA with your LifeHunting/Yulk private server fantasy builds.

    b:pleased
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »
    You're an idiot. I don't expect you to grasp the concept of the larger picture.

    Are you at 20k hp and 15k mdef/pdef yet? No? Why not? I know a few who are. Gogogo.

    You can't talk about cost effectiveness without running into the reality of diminishing returns.

    And please, school me about LA hybrid being superior to full HA with your LifeHunting/Yulk private server fantasy builds.

    b:pleased

    LA/HA hybrid and full HA has always been a personal choice one is beter for pve and 1v1 PK with more ability to gear swap...one has higher Hp def level and does not require you to juggle 4-5 armor peices for mass pk

    my facts are *gasp* mathmaticly correct on in a game based on math...your opinion is taken from your **** hole and spread on paper then flushed unless you can back it with something aside from "well the big manly bm told me so and i like big manly bm's" it gets old

    read back to my 1st post where i explain how it works...ofc you want a balance not due to diminished returns on phys/m def but because you can get a higher multiplier on your overall def by raising your hp (aka your base) or your def level...again def and mag def do not in any way get worse or diminish in any way...hp and def level simply get better

    hey look you just took my arguement reworded it and tried to use it as a counter...again followed by some referance to how rich some LC bm's are (has nothing to do with topic)

    btw as somone who endorsed LA orns in the past your not allowed to mock lifes builds b:chuckle

    8 ft
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    8 ft? More like -8 IQ points. Every conversation with you is just lowering my perception of your intelligence. I'll try to explain this to you as simply as I can as if you were a child in hopes you might possibly be able to see your math as it applies to actual gaming.

    I'll say this again because you failed to recognize what I've actually acknowledged. The formula for defense itself does not have a diminishing return. But do you actually play this game? I don't think you do because you're so focused on minutiae that you fail to grasp the overall picture.

    You spend X amount of time, effort or money to get from 6000 to 7000 hp/pdef/mdef ect. (Hmm, you do have at least 8k hp don't you?)

    How much will X amount of time and effort give you the next time you wish to increase any of those? An equal amount or less?

    So the whole point is that you're incorrectly assuming that an equal amount of HP or defenses can be added each time you upgrade. This isn't the fact. In fact, the whole system is not static like this. All increased gains past a certain point will require more time, effort or money to achieve an equal gain in defenses. Or, conversely the point you seem to be completely neglecting is that every time you put a specific amount of time, effort ot money you will receive less defenses to a point where you cannot increase defenses at all at any cost. That is the diminishing return. One you cannot avoid in PWI.

    Yes, I do realize that you have learning and comprehension disabilities. Otherwise I wouldn't even take my time trying to explain to you. :P
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »
    8 ft? More like -8 IQ points. Every conversation with you is just lowering my perception of your intelligence. I'll try to explain this to you as simply as I can as if you were a child in hopes you might possibly be able to see your math as it applies to actual gaming.

    I'll say this again because you failed to recognize what I've actually acknowledged. The formula for defense itself does not have a diminishing return. But do you actually play this game? I don't think you do because you're so focused on minutiae that you fail to grasp the overall picture.

    You spend X amount of time, effort or money to get from 6000 to 7000 hp/pdef/mdef ect. (Hmm, you do have at least 8k hp don't you?)

    How much will X amount of time and effort give you the next time you wish to increase any of those? An equal amount or less?

    So the whole point is that you're incorrectly assuming that an equal amount of HP or defenses can be added each time you upgrade. This isn't the fact. In fact, the whole system is not static like this. All increased gains past a certain point will require more time, effort or money to achieve an equal gain in defenses. Or, conversely the point you seem to be completely neglecting is that every time you put a specific amount of time, effort ot money you will receive less defenses to a point where you cannot increase defenses at all at any cost. That is the diminishing return. One you cannot avoid in PWI.

    Yes, I do realize that you have learning and comprehension disabilities. Otherwise I wouldn't even take my time trying to explain to you. :P

    ignoreing the condesending BS

    yes an equal amont of def will be added proportionaly

    25 phys def is needed at 100 for a 1% reduction from 100% damage aka 1%

    now from 49% phys def at 3850 to 50% at 3900 you need 100 phys def for a 1/51% reduction or a 1.9% redux so 25 for 1% roughly

    "but hp is more usefull as it raises and magnifies your base" yes this is true...in pk where your healing comes from a charm giveing a hp based heal

    however the more healing you receive that is not dependant on your hp (pots bloodpaint cleric heals) the more valuable a static damage reduction becomes vs hp...basicly you would only need HP to survive spike damage there ad tbh thats what TE earthquake and spark resist are for

    so if we're talking endgame pve hp is pretty useless you would want a balance of phys def and def level...why? 2 buffs magnify phys def by 60+% along with demon marrow for 150% one buff magnifies hp so in addition to straight returns you gain a minimum 75% (demon bell) maximum 430% (sage marrow+sage bell+sage vangaurd/demon stream) boost to each shard while you get at most a 45% boost to hp

    so assumeign 7k base def and 8k hp unbuffed 2 citrine gems add 322/11200 rougly 2.8% hp buffed and 2 garnet gems add rougly 1k phys def to 30100 = 88-89 = 1/12 = 8.33% boost to def

    if we're talking pk hp becomes more important but you still want a balance...vit stone = 150 hp so at 7.5k hp JosD becomes better than HP at 15k (+11-12 refine hp on a hybrid bm) dimond of dragon becomes more usefull rings and orns would be refined for def here

    9 ft
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Earth to Josh, are you there? Wow, you're autistic too. There's this thing, called the bigger picture. Way to completely ignore what I've saying just to delve deeper into your own little imaginary conversation.

    So do you even have 8khp unbuffed yet? Why aren't you at 15k unbuffed yet? You get tome yet?

    Post a pwcalc? Surely since there are no diminishing returns, you must be close to your full +12 set now. I want to see.
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »
    Earth to Josh, are you there? Wow, you're autistic too. There's this thing, called the bigger picture. Way to completely ignore what I've saying just to delve deeper into your own little imaginary conversation.

    So do you even have 8khp unbuffed yet? Why aren't you at 15k unbuffed yet? You get tome yet?

    Post a pwcalc? Surely since there are no diminishing returns, you must be close to your full +12 set now. I want to see.

    ok that statement made no sense whatsoever your just foaming at the mouth now

    *points to math* my personal gear is totaly non factor here i'm discussing the basic mechanics of pwi wanna disprove me with numbers? go ahead because thats what i'm argueing not some gear based pissing contest

    here you go since you will not shut up about it http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=83f71a8824fb3800 (notice that unlike you i actually post the totaly unbuffed build...and talk about my unbuffed stats? its like your compensateing or something)

    same gear swaps as in my 99 post (+5 SDP +6 demon slaughter belt misties bands of H jail)

    pants came pre sharded for 50 mill on ah as 1st recast thus the random shards

    bought forests wisdom instead of DoDing my armor am useing flawless cits as placeholders till prices drop to the 3.5-4 mill range on sanc dont see the point in useing higher as i'm planing to trash hp for more usefull sharding soon
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    *points to math* my personal gear is totaly non factor here i'm discussing the basic mechanics of pwi wanna disprove me with numbers?

    Please read this next sentence at least one dozen times.

    FOR THE THIRD TIME I'VE SAID THIS IN THE THREAD, THE FORMULA OF DEFENSES ALONE IS NOT A DIMINISHING RETURN.

    Obtaining these defenses IS a diminishing return. You do not just magically get another 2000 hp, 2000 mdef/pdef ect. You just cannot stack these over and over until you say "I'm happy". There is a very real time, effort and cost factor necessary to obtain higher and higher figures which is all based on diminishing returns. That's how PWI operates. That's how they make money.

    /epic facepalm

    go ahead because thats what i'm argueing not some gear based pissing contest

    here you go since you will not shut up about it http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=83f71a8824fb3800 (notice that unlike you i actually post the totaly unbuffed build...and talk about my unbuffed stats? its like your compensateing or something)

    same gear swaps as in my 99 post (+5 SDP +6 demon slaughter belt misties bands of H jail)

    pants came pre sharded for 50 mill on ah as 1st recast thus the random shards

    bought forests wisdom instead of DoDing my armor am useing flawless cits as placeholders till prices drop to the 3.5-4 mill range on sanc dont see the point in useing higher as i'm planing to trash hp for more usefull sharding soon


    You're in your own little mindless empty void of a world. Screaming, you cannot get out.

    Don't even dare mention money in this thread, your neglect of including it in any build is reflective of your fantasy that formulas directly equate to gaming application. They do not.

    Money is inconsequential. You apparently have unlimited funds as you've neglected to address this time and time and time again like some idiot with blinders on.

    I'll say it again since you seem to be ADHD, autistic and educationally challenged:


    THE FORMULA OF DEFENSES ALONE IS NOT A DIMINISHING RETURN.

    Actually obtaining higher and higher defenses IS a diminishing return.
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »
    Please read this next sentence at least one dozen times.

    FOR THE THIRD TIME I'VE SAID THIS IN THE THREAD, THE FORMULA OF DEFENSES ALONE IS NOT A DIMINISHING RETURN.

    Obtaining these defenses IS a diminishing return. You do not just magically get another 2000 hp, 2000 mdef/pdef ect. You just cannot stack these over and over until you say "I'm happy". There is a very real time, effort and cost factor necessary to obtain higher and higher figures which is all based on diminishing returns. That's how PWI operates. That's how they make money.

    /epic facepalm





    You're in your own little mindless empty void of a world. Screaming, you cannot get out.

    Don't even dare mention money in this thread, your neglect of including it in any build is reflective of your fantasy that formulas directly equate to gaming application. They do not.

    Money is inconsequential. You apparently have unlimited funds as you've neglected to address this time and time and time again like some idiot with blinders on.

    I'll say it again since you seem to be ADHD, autistic and educationally challenged:


    THE FORMULA OF DEFENSES ALONE IS NOT A DIMINISHING RETURN.

    Actually obtaining higher and higher defenses IS a diminishing return.

    duh

    hp def level phys attack char level all this things cost more

    again duuuuuuuuuh

    gear costs $? i never would have guessed this

    fun fact if i was to fully flawless garnet my biuld with the exeption of pants i would lose 480 hp for 11.1% phys damage redux self buffed

    i would gain 12% with DoD's at 5 mill each

    480/8340 = 5.7% more hp

    which of the above is more cost effective for pve tanking? because getting almost 2x the effect from a shard for the same cost is bad now?

    math...it wins...you should use it rather than rant about the most comonly understood mechanic of pwi
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    duh

    hp def level phys attack char level all this things cost more

    again duuuuuuuuuh

    gear costs $? i never would have guessed this

    fun fact if i was to fully flawless garnet my biuld with the exeption of pants i would lose 480 hp for 11.1% phys damage redux self buffed

    i would gain 12% with DoD's at 5 mill each

    480/8340 = 5.7% more hp

    which of the above is more cost effective for pve tanking? because getting almost 2x the effect from a shard for the same cost is bad now?

    math...it wins...you should use it rather than rant about the most comonly understood mechanic of pwi


    Wow, again completely over your head.

    I'm not arguing formulas, yet you continue to do so. Your comprehension and attention level is what fails.

    Hurry up, hit 20k hp and 15k mdef/pdef. Cost effectiveness has nothing to do with the laws of diminishing returns. You should be able to get there without trying. Oh wait....

    /facepalm
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    duh

    hp def level phys attack char level all this things cost more

    again duuuuuuuuuh

    gear costs $? i never would have guessed this

    fun fact if i was to fully flawless garnet my biuld with the exeption of pants i would lose 480 hp for 11.1% phys damage redux self buffed

    i would gain 12% with DoD's at 5 mill each

    480/8340 = 5.7% more hp

    which of the above is more cost effective for pve tanking? because getting almost 2x the effect from a shard for the same cost is bad now?math...it wins...you should use it rather than rant about the most comonly understood mechanic of pwi
    i
    Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »
    Wow, again completely over your head.

    I'm not arguing formulas, yet you continue to do so. Your comprehension and attention level is what fails.

    Hurry up, hit 20k hp and 15k mdef/pdef. Cost effectiveness has nothing to do with the laws of diminishing returns. You should be able to get there without trying. Oh wait....

    /facepalm

    hmmmmmmm

    so despite being the dyslexc one i seem to be able to read better than you

    highlighted in red the part that your foaming at the mouth about, if a bm can get 2x the effect from a shard that costs THE EXACT SAME AMOUNT as another shard in a given situation how exactly are you asrgueing that it suffering diminished returns vs that other shard

    or are you just ranting incoherently now?
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    i


    hmmmmmmm

    so despite being the dyslexc one i seem to be able to read better than you

    highlighted in red the part that your foaming at the mouth about, if a bm can get 2x the effect from a shard that costs THE EXACT SAME AMOUNT as another shard in a given situation how exactly are you asrgueing that it suffering diminished returns vs that other shard

    or are you just ranting incoherently now?

    Dude, why are you still responding? Are you having a psychotic episode or a mental breakdown?

    You've mostly been having some bizarre inner dialogue with yourself that's starting to become a little creepy.

    fun fact if i was to fully flawless garnet my biuld with the exeption of pants i would lose 480 hp for 11.1% phys damage redux self buffed

    i would gain 12% with DoD's at 5 mill each

    480/8340 = 5.7% more hp

    You're comparing a flawless garnet that would cost about 175k to a DoD worth 5m.

    Ok, lets just pretend you're not bat-s**t crazy. Compare those gains over sharding completely with garnet gems or vit stones. Then figure out the cost difference per point or percent of damage reduction or hp gained. Then tell me there is no diminishing return associated with the cost of going from flawless shards to G11/G12.

    edit: Even in your last example, you're only going for flawless or DoD's... that's not pushing the envelope higher or comparing it against lower or higher gains. You've marginalized yourself and you completely miss the point YET AGAIN.
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  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    compared citrine gems to garnet gems on a full HA build earlier

    compared flawless to flawless with DoD as a referance point

    can you read?
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  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    compared citrine gems to garnet gems on a full HA build earlier

    VS

    compared flawless to flawless with DoD as a referance point

    Figure defense gained from flawless and gems and the price associated with those gains compared to each other.

    It takes 750 flawless to make one gem. I'd like to see you explain how you get 750 times the benefit.

    For a citrine, a flawless at 300k would give you 7500 coins per point of HP, a gem at 20m each point of HP will cost you 175k.

    There is a diminishing return on how much defenses you can add. Idiot.

    That's ALL I have been saying this whole time, yet you're such a bonehead you're having this inner dialogue / conflict with yourself. You're perpetuating an argument over nothing except your own schizophrenia. You're like.... having an argument or conversation with your invisible friend. b:bye
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »
    Figure defense gained from flawless and gems and the price associated with those gains compared to each other.

    It takes 750 flawless to make one gem. I'd like to see you explain how you get 750 times the benefit.

    For a citrine, a flawless at 300k would give you 7500 coins per point of HP, a gem at 20m each point of HP will cost you 175k.

    There is a diminishing return on how much defenses you can add. Idiot.

    That's ALL I have been saying this whole time, yet you're such a bonehead you're having this inner dialogue / conflict with yourself. You're perpetuating an argument over nothing except your own schizophrenia. You're like.... having an argument or conversation with your invisible friend. b:bye

    higher level gems/gear cost more duh

    think i have agreed with you on that 4-5 times so dont know whhy your still spaing the thread with it

    everything in game suffers THAT diminished return (again most fundamental concept of the game) so in relation to the game we are playing where...again EVERYTHING follows the law of pay to play proportionaly your concept of diminishing returns does not exist

    gonna say this again cause you never get things the 1st time

    we are discussing sharding...all grades of shards (with the exeption of DoD/DoT) work off the same cost scale as do refines etc...assumeing you have already maxed refines and gear all thats left is sharding so for the purpose of this discussion the shard cost vs gear cost is irrelevent leaving only shard vs shard

    now at max grade (within 2 mill of each other) there are JosD', citrine gems,vit stones and garnet gems, at flawless there is citrine saphire and garnet. ofc theres immacs, perfects+DoD/DoT sections but meh

    so how by any twist of logic does one varient of shard have diminished returns over another at = grade outside of the math i presented?

    or mabey you didnt see this is a shard based topic...discussing (gasp) SHARDS not refines or optimal build routes so unless you can actually present proof that an equal level garnet shard would mathmaticly give diminished returns over an equal level hp or vit shard at 8k+ hp go ahead

    shards at = value suffer no proportional diminished return in cost because they are the same value

    once you have enough hp to survive magic spike in pve (7-8k) phys shards offer proportionaly higher effective HP than hp shards at equal grade

    in pk hp vs Def level is a function of (current hp)(%reduction gained per shard)>,=,<(equal grade hp shard). if > or = def is better, if < hp is the route to go

    disprove the above or shutup
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  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    disprove the above or shutup

    Dude, you're a nut job. What is your point?

    The only thing I've said this WHOLE time is this:

    The more defenses or HP you want to add the more cost or effort it will take to get you there until you cannot improve further no matter what you do. THAT is the diminishing return.

    That is the only thing I've been saying this whole time. Your argument is pointless and unwarranted.

    I don't care if I get banned here or not, you're a freaking idiot.
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • Evanera - Heavens Tear
    Evanera - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,423 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    You're both talking about completely different things and you're calling yourself morons for it.

    I think both of you should relax xP
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  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Evanera - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    You're both talking about completely different things and you're calling yourself morons for it.

    I think both of you should relax xP

    He's the one who started arguing with me. I'm just saying the same thing over and over and over, yet he keeps arguing about something completely unrelated that I'm not even talking about... It's really bizarre behavior to say the least.
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited January 2011
    Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »
    He's the one who started arguing with me. I'm just saying the same thing over and over and over, yet he keeps arguing about something completely unrelated that I'm not even talking about... It's really bizarre behavior to say the least.

    was mainly pointing out the part where what you where saying had nothing to to whatsoever with the topic
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