Assassin,demon or sage?

menkara · January 2011

OK i wanna be a 5 aps assassin but of course im not gonna get that for some time but even so which would be better demon or sage? also for my main,whose gonna get the money for my next char once i create him,which would be better for him over all? please include the cons and pros of deamon and sage

Evict - Heavens Tear · January 2011

Demon. Cannot reach 5.0 APS as Sage, ijs.

threepointone · January 2011

Evict - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Demon. Cannot reach 5.0 APS as Sage, ijs.

QFT. Ahgjugbg.

Firefeng - Dreamweaver · January 2011

Sage Bloodpaint, Power Dash, Dagger Devotion, Deaden Nerves, Inner Harmony, Shadow Escape, and Earthen Rift are all noticeably better than their Demon Variants.

Demon Headhunt, Shadow Teleport, Shadow Walk, and Throatcut are arguably better than their Sage counterparts.

Arguably equal skills between the two, considering differing play styles and use in PVE versus PVP, are: Wolf Emblem, with sage getting points for convenience, while Demon favors higher spike damage in short spurts (I love my demon wolf emblem, even if it was expensive as ****); Subsea Strike, with Sage getting the benefit of higher spike damage versus Demon doing more over time; Focused Mind/Tidal Protection, with Sage increasing the percentage proc of each while Demon effectively defends against both at lower proc rates; Chill of the Deep, with Sage being better right out of the box, but Demon having more use after you've gotten every available piece of -interval gear available to Sins.

Effectively, Sage skills are going to be better than Demon skills, with the one caveat that Demon spark gives most Sins easy-to-attain high APS.

Really, it all comes down to your playstyle. I was split 50/50 between Sage/Demon, but eventually settled on Demon because I have or will have every piece of -int gear I need for high APS waiting for me to ding into them, with the exception of a tome and Nirvy gear.

ZeaKuro - Raging Tide · January 2011

Sage is 90% dagger devotion and better skills. I can still do a int build with sage sin.

Akhenan - Archosaur · January 2011

Decided to go Sage after comparing both +s and minus and adapting to my playstyle.
But Sage shines at 99 so not much of the so "immediate rewards" sort to say.
Now to find the Sage bloodpaint book....

Typhyse - Sanctuary · January 2011

Evict - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Demon. Cannot reach 5.0 APS as Sage, ijs.

The hell are you smoking? That's only if one limits oneself to daggers.

Olbaze - Sanctuary · January 2011

Typhyse - Sanctuary wrote: »

The hell are you smoking? That's only if one limits oneself to daggers.

Going through the trouble of getting 5 aps with Sage with Deicide is kinda silly, since with that, you'd have 4 aps with demon spark with any dagger that has -0.05 interval.

Or you could just go one step ahead and use Barrier Thorn: Nirvana as a comparison point and then you'd be comparing Sage 5 aps claws with demon 5 aps daggers. The latter will obviously win.

Typhyse - Sanctuary · January 2011

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Going through the trouble of getting 5 aps with Sage with Deicide is kinda silly, since with that, you'd have 4 aps with demon spark with any dagger that has -0.05 interval.

Or you could just go one step ahead and use Barrier Thorn: Nirvana as a comparison point and then you'd be comparing Sage 5 aps claws with demon 5 aps daggers. The latter will obviously win.

Truer words never spoken. Though my point was, however impractical it may be, 5 aps IS possible with a Sage sin.
...if you can afford to waste thousands of USDs on a computer game, that is.

Yishuin - Sanctuary · January 2011

Sage cant reach 5.0 aps? wrong totally wrong and I insist : its wroooooong.

Ok sage sin using only daggers cant reach perma 5.0 aps like a demon but a sage sin can reach 5.0 aps with other options :

windshield (genie skill)
sage slipstream strike (30 chance to increase attack speed by 20% during 3 sec) ok its not a lot 3 sec but its not so bad.
RB from clerics.

ccl : sage sins with daggers can reach 5 aps

.

And maybe the next expansion will add new -int gear who knows ^^.

Olbaze - Sanctuary · January 2011

Yishuin - Sanctuary wrote: »

windshield (genie skill)
sage slipstream strike (30 chance to increase attack speed by 20% during 3 sec) ok its not a lot 3 sec but its not so bad.
RB from clerics.

Even with a 100/100 pure mag genie, you're looking at 135 seconds of 5 aps with Wind Shield.

Sage Slipstream Strike is worthless since it's only 30% chance for a 3 second proc but it takes 2.1 seconds for the animation to end.

RB isn't a sin skill b:puzzled

Yishuin - Sanctuary · January 2011

sage slipstream is worthless cause its 30% OR cause the animation end after 2.1 sec OR both?

1/ its 30% chance ok its not a lot but well its not nothing

2/ BIIIP FATAL ERROR you are lvl 80 so i have to admit that you are talking about something you don't know so i will put some light where its dark : i have the sage slipstream strike (yes im a sage sin) and the good thing is that the buff doesnt start when the cast starts but when the strike hits so its 3 secondes totally effective

.

3/ after point 2/ only the 1/ is still a possibility

.

RB is not a sin skill and i didnt say that. RB is a cleric skill is what i said. If a cleric use RB then the sin has its aps increased.

Laranda - Heavens Tear · January 2011

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Even with a 100/100 pure mag genie, you're looking at 135 seconds of 5 aps with Wind Shield.

With Lv1 Wind Shield or Lv10? I've been looking into that for another class, and it seems to make a big difference.

Olbaze - Sanctuary · January 2011

Laranda - Heavens Tear wrote: »

With Lv1 Wind Shield or Lv10? I've been looking into that for another class, and it seems to make a big difference.

Level 1, obviously, since the higher levels only increase the cost without affecting the attack speed increase.

The best option for Sages using Windshield would be to use Windshield once per spark. If you had 4.0 APS unsparked, this would give you an average APS of 4.53 permanently, as long as your genie has a recovery rate of at least 2.34.

Of course, the practical average isn't as concrete, since things like higher recovery rate, or using more Windshields is going to affect it. But 4.53 is the highest you can provide on a consistent basis.

That is actually rather important, because when you compare the DPS between Sage and Demon, most of the difference comes from the APS. With Windshield, the difference is down to ~10%. If you add Sage Mastery, you're at about ~7% in favor of Demon.

maluca · January 2011

Sorry for my ignorance, what is aps ?

And for wizard and venomancer wich one is better? Demons or Sage?

ty

Empu - Sanctuary · January 2011

Firefeng - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Effectively, Sage skills are going to be better than Demon skills, with the one caveat that Demon spark gives most Sins easy-to-attain high APS.

Really, it all comes down to your playstyle.

THIS.

You can't label 1 as "better", it all depends on the person. I judged on the skills lightly different then Firefeng (sage wolf emblem has another pro besides just convenience : it doesn't get purged off even though it becomes a 30min buff and I really love that side effect), but that is also where build and playstyle kicks in. I choose sage, and I love it, but can't say it's "better" then demon... It's just equally good. The option of "equally good" should have been in poll, cause now I can't vote b:surrender

@Olbaze: She's right about the 3 sec buff on sage slipstream strike kicking in only after. Ofc, some would still say the skill as useless, 3 sec and 30% chance isn't really something to rely on. However, it's also a hard hitter that can 1hit mobs when it crits. I actually use it more for the high hit than the att speed increase :P

TaT_ - Archosaur · January 2011

maluca wrote: »

Sorry for my ignorance, what is aps ?

And for wizard and venomancer wich one is better? Demons or Sage?

ty

APS = Attacks per Second

The other question in the wrong section..

Firefeng - Dreamweaver · January 2011

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

THIS.

You can't label 1 as "better", it all depends on the person. I judged on the skills lightly different then Firefeng (sage wolf emblem has another pro besides just convenience : it doesn't get purged off even though it becomes a 30min buff and I really love that side effect), but that is also where build and playstyle kicks in. I choose sage, and I love it, but can't say it's "better" then demon... It's just equally good. The option of "equally good" should have been in poll, cause now I can't vote b:surrender

Didn't vote either. And Sage Wolf Emblem and Bloodpaint by themselves almost made me choose sage, and I may still switch cultis down the road, even if it's hard and expensive as Hell.

@Olbaze: She's right about the 3 sec buff on sage slipstream strike kicking in only after. Ofc, some would still say the skill as useless, 3 sec and 30% chance isn't really something to rely on. However, it's also a hard hitter that can 1hit mobs when it crits. I actually use it more for the high hit than the att speed increase :P

This, a thousand times over. Demon/Sage Slipstream both hit as hard as my Level 10 Headhunt. I open on regular mobs with it in the hopes it will crit and instakill them.

sebastain20 · January 2011

Well,

I've read the skills of a Demon and Sage sin,and I have to say they both have their incredible pros and terrible cons,but I would probably choose Sage because of Bloodpaint and,from what I have heard,increased critistrike rating.

Crypsis - Lost City · January 2011

Yishuin - Sanctuary wrote: »

Sage cant reach 5.0 aps? wrong totally wrong and I insist : its wroooooong.

Ok sage sin using only daggers cant reach perma 5.0 aps like a demon but a sage sin can reach 5.0 aps with other options :

windshield (genie skill)
sage slipstream strike (30 chance to increase attack speed by 20% during 3 sec) ok its not a lot 3 sec but its not so bad.
RB from clerics.
.

Red/Heaven's Wrath overwrites triple spark so you wont have 500% weapon damage, only 100%. There is like no point having 5 aps with red running since you're technically not sparked at all.

But Windshield normally works fine to go from 4-5 aps, no clue why people are so against it. I mean bosses dies in 1-3 minutes anyway and with a vit/magic genie u can keep it up for at least Nirvana and TT. Problem with Windshield is that it overwrites the dmg reduction from Celestial Eruption, but i guess thats a minor issue.

Flatpaw - Lost City · February 2011

HAHA love how it is 50-50 splitb:laugh

reddover · February 2011

Most Sins tend to go Demon because its more along the lines of their purpose: speed, evasion, accuracy. Demon Sin provides those skills necessary to achieve that goal; if you go Sage as a Sin, you are using your imagination and thinking outside that box.

Personally, I leveled under the premise that I must be fast, accurate, and evasive. When it comes to PVP, it works. When it comes to PVE, well, you have to bring your A-game. It's all up to the player in the end. I'm changing how I gear my character and looking forward to a Sage build.

I voted for Sage (Sin) because that will buy me more time to stomp on someone's az.

_Fuzz_ - Lost City · February 2011

Woot! i rocked the vote over 50/50 xD

b4 i start, pls everyone ST(Fruit)U about permasparking cause all sins have been perma sparking since 59. b:thanks

Demon, not because it's the only one that can get to 5 aps(or the easiest), but because it's the BETTER dps build of the 2.

ya sage can get 5 aps with claws, but what about all that hype with having sage Devotion. And don;t forget it's already been done where demon sins can have 5 aps with claws AND Chill on. In other words, demon can out dd sage using the same -int by having Chill act like a fist mastery(+30% dmg).

as far as the fight over "this skill is better then that" all the skill are the same basic skills. only minor changes from lvl 10 to lvl 11. like it was mentioned here, sage slipstream has a better lvl 11 efect, but both are used for the added dmg of the ORIGINAL skills ability(hit hard as hell).

overall, saying sage skills are better is retared. It's not like lvl 11 changed them completely(headhunt is still a stun, shadow escape is still a stealth, ect...). Demon trumps sage for the fact that it does better dps, and the way pwi economy is based right now, the more dps you have the better you are( faster farming, faster killing, its just faster when you deal dmg faster).

only difference i have ever heard come from the small difference between sage and demon is the triple sparks. demon grants 5 aps for more dps and faster killing. sage grants a better ability to tank/solo, but can't kill as fast (still fast).

my personal view in a nutshell:
demon - better DD
sage - better tank

*btw, i'm still waiting for a sage sin to solo harpy wraith to show up demons how they are the better tanks.
b:victory

Firefeng - Dreamweaver · February 2011

Demon Sin attacks faster. Sage Sins have better skills, save for Demon's ability to stunlock easier.

If APS is ever nerfed, a bajillion Demon Sins will cry out in woe. A bajillion Sage Sins probably won't care.

Teny - Heavens Tear · February 2011

tl;dr: Demon is better. No-one at end game is going to sit there spamming skills, if you want to do that, roll a Seeker next month.

Yes, sage has a few better skills than demon, but demons can hit 5.0 whereas Sage cannot without some kind of aid, i.e. Wind Shield.

There's also the fact that Demons can still hit 5.0 with only .05 interval on their weapons, i.e. a second cast nirvana dagger with some add-on (SS, +20Atk Lvl, GoF).

Or if you're wealthier, you can go for a 4.0 build using the r9 daggers, which has proven to be quite effective at least on Heaven's Tear.

DPS wise, Demon Sin > Sage Sin.

If you plan on farming and making yourself money, you'll want a demon sin.

newdls · February 2011

I read about both the sage and demon assassin, for the longest I had made up my mind to go sage. So im just asking is it possible for a sage assassin to work there way up to 5 aps?

_Fuzz_ - Lost City · February 2011

newdls wrote: »

I read about both the sage and demon assassin, for the longest I had made up my mind to go sage. So im just asking is it possible for a sage assassin to work there way up to 5 aps?

only way sage can get 5 aps is with fist/claws, which in turn negates the whole reason you went sage cause you can can't use any skills w/ fists.\

as far as skills go, they are all the same basic skills. most people only get lvl 11 for the extra dmg anyways. (one shotting with lvl 11 knife throw is fun xD)

Olbaze - Sanctuary · February 2011

_Fuzz_ - Lost City wrote: »

only way sage can get 5 aps is with fist/claws, which in turn negates the whole reason you went sage cause you can can't use any skills w/ fists.\

Objection!

Sage Wolf Emblem lasts 30 minutes and Sage Spark still has the 25% reduction. Also, Sage Bloodpaint works as well and lasts an hour.

And let me tell you. Sage Wolf Emblem, Sage Spark, Sage Bloodpaint and 5 aps and you got yourself one damn durable sin. Much more so than any Archer or Demon Sin.

as far as skills go, they are all the same basic skills. most people only get lvl 11 for the extra dmg anyways. (one shotting with lvl 11 knife throw is fun xD)

Um, Bloodpaint? You know, level 11 BP lasts 1 hour. Focused Mind is also better on level 11 than on level 10 on either culti. Same is also true for Tidal Protection obviously. Level 11 Shadow Escape and Shadow Walk have reduced mana costs. Sage Wolf Emblem turns into a permanent buff.

newdls · February 2011

thanks for everyones input, greatly appreciated..

Empu - Sanctuary · February 2011

Teny - Heavens Tear wrote: »

If you plan on farming and making yourself money, you'll want a demon sin.

You really underestimate the effect of sage spark for a sin solo-farming. Sure no sin will be skill spamming, but there are also buffs. Sage focussed mind and tidal protection for example. I'd even say sage is better for solo-farming, but that's just my biaised opinion.

flamingahole · February 2011

Crypsis - Lost City wrote: »

Problem with Windshield is that it overwrites the dmg reduction from Celestial Eruption, but i guess thats a minor issue.

Really? That was one of the reasons I was going to go sage. The damage reduction is one hell of a plus in sage's favor so I wouldn't say that overwriting it is a "minor" issue. With all the ways sins have to build chi sage spark is basically perma-spark at 4 APS (technically, 4 APS should be perma-spark but lag and the fact that the character stands still like a jackass for 3 seconds means it's not).

Now the only question would be whether the damage reduction as well as the extra 1% from BP (and focused mind, so sexy) would make it easier for sins to solo farm or would the loss of 1 APS make more of a difference than I think. There's also the time it'd take to use skills other than spark so that could push the damage further in demon's favor (or more accurately, lower sage's overall damage). If I ever bother to do the math then I'll post it up here. I'm actually curious as to whether a sage sin could solo anything that an equally geared demon sin couldn't and vice versa.

Honestly even if the numbers show that sage isn't as great as it seems at first then I'll probably still stick with sage to give my friends BP while still being a pretty damn good DD; it's an MMO, if I wanted to solo everything then I'd be playing some single player game.

Edit-OP, how about instead of having a "which path is better" poll you change it to "which path are you/will you take"? Neither path is really "better" since both have strengths/weaknesses and despite what I said about going sage, chances are that when I finally do hit 89 I'll end up flipping a coin to decide.

Assassin,demon or sage?

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