Assassin,demon or sage?

LeFEMME - Lost City

I'll not be APS, and one of my goals is do my things alone, cause I don't have a lot of time to search for squads...So, sage or demon to solo instances? Like FC ...BHs? Or doesn't matter?

armsrace

Firefeng - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Sage Bloodpaint, Power Dash, Dagger Devotion, Deaden Nerves, Inner Harmony, Shadow Escape, and Earthen Rift are all noticeably better than their Demon Variants.


Really, it all comes down to your playstyle. I was split 50/50 between Sage/Demon, but eventually settled on Demon because I have or will have every piece of -int gear I need for high APS waiting for me to ding into them, with the exception of a tome and Nirvy gear.

Big misconception that sage earthen rift > demon earthen rift.

Sure, 420% > 400% weapon damage, but that's not a huge amount and when you deal with the end game gear (rank9, nirv), chance of one shotting someone with a crit is very likely with earthen rift which brings to the point of which is better when.

PvP wise, yeah sage is prob better in terms of damage, TW demon is better. 8m (sage) range is puny that'll barely kill over 3 people unless everyone decides to group up, but that's asking to die. Demon adds an extra 2m range, and going from 8m attack range to 10m can kill an extra 2-4 people in TW situation.

Both have their perks.

Empu - Sanctuary

armsrace wrote: »

Big misconception that sage earthen rift > demon earthen rift.

Sure, 420% > 400% weapon damage, but that's not a huge amount and when you deal with the end game gear (rank9, nirv), chance of one shotting someone with a crit is very likely with earthen rift which brings to the point of which is better when.

PvP wise, yeah sage is prob better in terms of damage, TW demon is better. 8m (sage) range is puny that'll barely kill over 3 people unless everyone decides to group up, but that's asking to die. Demon adds an extra 2m range, and going from 8m attack range to 10m can kill an extra 2-4 people in TW situation.

Both have their perks.

I couldn't disagree more with you. Earthern rift is one of the skills that is definately better sage imo.

PvE wise, 30% (yes it's 430%, not 420%) is a lot more, especially with endgame gear, especially if you only have 2 aoes to get something dead. I think 2m extra range is really useless cause a) melee mobs are inside those 8m and b) ranged mobs have 12m range so they will be out unless you run a bit further then back, in which case you can better have sage to heal back more with bp.

PvP, with 2 aoes and a special stealth ability I don't see why sins would aoe. Why aoe when there are other classes way better at it (just for the number of aoes), and not use stealth to sneak and take out key-targets?

If you like demon rift better for whatever reason, why not. But it's not a big misconception to say sage rift > demon rift. I actually think even most demon sins agree on that.

armsrace

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

I couldn't disagree more with you. Earthern rift is one of the skills that is definately better sage imo.

PvE wise, 30% (yes it's 430%, not 420%) is a lot more, especially with endgame gear, especially if you only have 2 aoes to get something dead. I think 2m extra range is really useless cause a) melee mobs are inside those 8m and b) ranged mobs have 12m range so they will be out unless you run a bit further then back, in which case you can better have sage to heal back more with bp.

That 8m range to 10m range is TW related not PvE (refer to last paragraphs).
To be frank, I don't really care about any PvE argument and I've never used any PvE argument, whole argument is based on end gear. 1-2 shotting frost mobs with subsea strike + earthen with end gear is so easy I won't even argue the point. Yes, even level 10 versions.

PvP, with 2 aoes and a special stealth ability I don't see why sins would aoe. Why aoe when there are other classes way better at it (just for the number of aoes), and not use stealth to sneak and take out key-targets?

I don't disagree that "PvP' that stealth sneak key-targets can work better, however your getting sidetracked. Argument is based on when is sage and demon earthen rift better than their counterpart to which I originally stated that I'd prefer the extra damage in "PvP".

If you like demon rift better for whatever reason, why not. But it's not a big misconception to say sage rift > demon rift. I actually think even most demon sins agree on that.

That's exactly why it's a big misconception most sins will go demon to achieve 5.0 easier and don't realise how effective skills can be.

In an evenly matched TW-wise if your kill:death count is worse than 2:1 your doing something wrong and then you get all these sins that think they can melee everything to death but from what I see most die so fast moment their out of stealth or die after they kill one person.

These are the type of people that think TW is same as pvp, hell no. You can hang at west and poke people off one by one all you want but in TW you will die fast if you think no one will tab target you.

TW is group based, every AoE helps, I'd appriciate a sin subsea strike > 5-6 people rather than one that tries to solo one person and die right after they get the job done or die trying.

Red to make it easier to see what I'm replying to.

FYI: I'm not even sure you read the original post carefully, the first post states that I personally am a fan of demon earthen rift over sage in a TW situation. PvP, heck even PvE I'd probably prefer sage too so I'm not even sure what your disagree-ing with b:chuckle

Firefeng - Dreamweaver

Let's not forget that (good) TW is team-oriented PVP, and if I'm popping out of stealth to drop a Subsea/Mire on an unfortunate group of people that have clustered too close together so my squad can AoE, I may as well toss off an Earthen Rift while I'm at it. In those situations, I'm going to be dead or force stealthed after debuffing a group of people, anyway.

The reverse is also true, and one of the reasons why people say Sins aren't all that good in TWs compared to Wizzies/Archers/Psys; I really hate it when my opponents are on task and an entire squad Assist Attacks me the second I'm out of stealth.

It bears mentioning that Demon Rift would really help my *** out in FCs when there are magic casting mobs just out of range of my main target, too. I still vote Sage Rift better, though, on the basis that Demon Rift is only situationally more useful, whereas any Sin that's had to deal with Rift's 8M range for 99 levels will already adjust their attacks to maximize damage regardless of the range differences.

Still, Demon Wolf Emblem + Demon Subsea + Demon Rift makes for a nasty combo, PVE or PVP. My next goal on my sin is to break 150k on a group of mobs with Rift (my current record is 108k using +7 Hitman Legend daggers).

Empu - Sanctuary

armsrace wrote: »

Red to make it easier to see what I'm replying to.

FYI: I'm not even sure you read the original post carefully, the first post states that I personally am a fan of demon earthen rift over sage in a TW situation. PvP, heck even PvE I'd probably prefer sage too so I'm not even sure what your disagree-ing with b:chuckle

For me, your first paragraphe of 1st post was refering to pve, and 2nd pvp/tw. From what you stated in red, I suppose you only fcc, nirvana and tw. Why? cause you obviously didn't use rift on a lvl100+ mob. I got sage rift, with +10 r8 daggers (up to you to judge this as end game or not) and sage dagger devotion. With that and 39% crit, I don't 1 hitt a lvl100+ mob in sage world. Sure in a lvl80s instance it's different, but why would I even amuse myself at 1 hitting lvl80s mobs. (Btw, especially with high grade weapons, the additional 30% will be bigger in absolute numbers)

I don't really get the first part of your 2nd red texte. I don't see how going demon for 5.0 aps and neglecting skills makes you come to a comparison of sage and demon rift. But w/e. If you like demon rift better then sage for TW, I can't denie your personal taste. I stil consider 8m to 10m as not much (I basicly got the same expansion on my cleric with sage razor feathers and really don't notice a difference, but ofc that's not used in tw).

Finrah - Sanctuary

menkara wrote: »

OK i wanna be a 5 aps assassin but of course im not gonna get that for some time but even so which would be better demon or sage? also for my main,whose gonna get the money for my next char once i create him,which would be better for him over all? please include the cons and pros of deamon and sage

If you want 5 APS, its going to be Demon. And that's all you get, as a Demon.

Skill wise overall Sages are better. Sage you can get to 4 APS, and 4.5/4.8 with Genie Wind Shield and Relentless courage (though depending on your genie stats too)

Only 1 APS difference... with an exchange of skills that are 90% better than demon skills... I'm sure you know which is better by now.

If you wanna PK/PVP/TW.... even better.

Kill your opponent with Skill, not JUST speed. Both demon and sage can be good PKs AS LONG AS the player knows what they are doing. But because skills on a Sage benefits a sin more, most of the time Demon sins just normal attack you to death. So, use your skills because Sages have a 'brain'; so to speak.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Finrah - Sanctuary wrote: »

If you want 5 APS, its going to be Demon. And that's all you get, as a Demon.

Skill wise overall Sages are better. Sage you can get to 4 APS, and 4.5/4.8 with Genie Wind
Shield and Relentless courage (though depending on your genie stats too)

Well if you want to get tough, a Sage with 5 aps with Deicide is really going to have the highest possible survivability. You get the 25% reduction on spark, the 5 aps, the 3% bloodpaint.

I mean, Sages already take a lot less damage than Demons. Now give them 5 aps and you basically have what you'd get if Archers could get Bloodpaint: Cheapest 5 aps in the game with extremely high survivability.

Also, if you went HA, it'd get plain ridiculous: 5 aps, HA, Sage Spark, 3% Bloodpaint. That's like a fist BM on some really effective steroids.

armsrace

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

For me, your first paragraphe of 1st post was refering to pve, and 2nd pvp/tw. From what you stated in red, I suppose you only fcc, nirvana and tw. Why? cause you obviously didn't use rift on a lvl100+ mob. I got sage rift, with +10 r8 daggers (up to you to judge this as end game or not) and sage dagger devotion. With that and 39% crit, I don't 1 hitt a lvl100+ mob in sage world. Sure in a lvl80s instance it's different, but why would I even amuse myself at 1 hitting lvl80s mobs. (Btw, especially with high grade weapons, the additional 30% will be bigger in absolute numbers)

I don't really get the first part of your 2nd red texte. I don't see how going demon for 5.0 aps and neglecting skills makes you come to a comparison of sage and demon rift. But w/e. If you like demon rift better then sage for TW, I can't denie your personal taste. I stil consider 8m to 10m as not much (I basicly got the same expansion on my cleric with sage razor feathers and really don't notice a difference, but ofc that's not used in tw).

I'll say +10 r8 daggers are as end game as +10 1st cast nirvana daggers (If you just want the higher spikes and crits.) Though I've been heaven/hell to try and mob, mob's I've tried aren't really worth AoE-ing since their too disperse.

2nd red text part is a suggestion that sins I see try and treat TW as a a PvP ground rather than a GvG grounds (guild vs guild). Melee-ing key targets also works fine but it's all a matter of play style.

The 5.0 demon to sage/demon rift comparison comes down to people believing that once they achieve something, that it's the only thing they can/should do, in this case it's them believing they can/should only melee people to death rather than throw an AoE that can hit well over 10k damage on arcanes/light.

Sins can cloak behind enemy lines and either melee/AoE targets that are hard to get, clerics, wiz usually like to stick reasonably close to them, and if you can get that close 2m range makes a big difference, same for cata teams that hang behind enemy lines waiting for DD teams to clear a path.

Firefeng - Dreamweaver wrote:

Let's not forget that (good) TW is team-oriented PVP, and if I'm popping out of stealth to drop a Subsea/Mire on an unfortunate group of people that have clustered too close together so my squad can AoE, I may as well toss off an Earthen Rift while I'm at it. In those situations, I'm going to be dead or force stealthed after debuffing a group of people, anyway.

The reverse is also true, and one of the reasons why people say Sins aren't all that good in TWs compared to Wizzies/Archers/Psys; I really hate it when my opponents are on task and an entire squad Assist Attacks me the second I'm out of stealth.

It bears mentioning that Demon Rift would really help my *** out in FCs when there are magic casting mobs just out of range of my main target, too. I still vote Sage Rift better, though, on the basis that Demon Rift is only situationally more useful, whereas any Sin that's had to deal with Rift's 8M range for 99 levels will already adjust their attacks to maximize damage regardless of the range differences.

Still, Demon Wolf Emblem + Demon Subsea + Demon Rift makes for a nasty combo, PVE or PVP. My next goal on my sin is to break 150k on a group of mobs with Rift (my current record is 108k using +7 Hitman Legend daggers).

I'll agree with majority of these stuff, a good sin imo knows their gonna be tab targetted moment they pop out and AoE and will domain to give them enough time to cloak back off rather that think they can force stealth and take the hits.

Overall I think we can at least both agree it's a personal taste and situational @ both posts. 30% (of weapon damage, not overall) doesn't make that big of a difference to me for example learning sage mastery on my barb and I only noticed a 600 patk increase which to me wasn't as much as I had hoped, it's nice of course but it's similar to having another 2% more crit.

Raequel - Dreamweaver

I have a sage assassin and I love it. Lots of people say you can't reach 5.0 Sage but you can with a genie. Either way, it's easy enough to get 4.0 Sage and you'd still take agro from the 5.0 Demon.

Sages make better tanks for their spark buffs and general sage skills (like bloodpaint - 3%)

Imo, if you can't afford the full interval gear, but still want to reach 5.0, go demon. If you can get every little interval piece, and a nice genie to achieve the 5.0 as a sage, go for it

AliceXV - Lost City

Evict - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Demon. Cannot reach 5.0 APS as Sage, ijs.

hahaha where u get that bs from? b:chuckle

Ashivas - Dreamweaver

AliceXV - Lost City wrote: »

hahaha where u get that bs from? b:chuckle

Thread is 10 months old, Im assuming he got it from 10 month old information.

Check post date from now on.

lnnershadow

Well considering the necro recently I'm going to ask a similar question in this thread than start a completely new one.

I'm a pretty nooby sin on a relatively low budget playing the game for enjoyment and mostly PvE/PvP/Dueling. I'm currently level 75 (76 by tomorrow) and don't know whether or not to go Sage or Demon when the time comes. I've done a lot of research as to the ups and downs, but I don't know if I can accurately confirm whether or not Sage or Demon is better for me. I've heard a lot that Demon is a better way to go for a lower-budget/Non-TW player like me, but BP, Dagger Devotion, and Wolf Emblem Sage skills look like they could overall deal more damage.

I'm full dex and pretty much always build with the intention of dealing the highest amount of damage in the shortest amount of time (not necessarily DPS on base hits; skill use counts as damage), but still would like some advice on which direction to follow.

I'm also wondering about the viability of a CoTD-based sage burst damage dealer with skills versus an APS sin, and which is cheaper.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

lnnershadow wrote: »

Well considering the necro recently I'm going to ask a similar question in this thread than start a completely new one.

I'm a pretty nooby sin on a relatively low budget playing the game for enjoyment and mostly PvE/PvP/Dueling. I'm currently level 75 (76 by tomorrow) and don't know whether or not to go Sage or Demon when the time comes. I've done a lot of research as to the ups and downs, but I don't know if I can accurately confirm whether or not Sage or Demon is better for me. I've heard a lot that Demon is a better way to go for a lower-budget/Non-TW player like me, but BP, Dagger Devotion, and Wolf Emblem Sage skills look like they could overall deal more damage.

I'm full dex and pretty much always build with the intention of dealing the highest amount of damage in the shortest amount of time (not necessarily DPS on base hits; skill use counts as damage), but still would like some advice on which direction to follow.

I'm also wondering about the viability of a CoTD-based sage burst damage dealer with skills versus an APS sin, and which is cheaper.

I'd start your own thread. Your question concerning your specific goals are going to get burried in this crapfest of a necro, but I'll throw my two cents in.

The three skills you listed for possibly preferring sage:

-Sage BP really is nicer, but you don't need to be sage to get sage bp.
-Dagger Devotion between the two culties is about equal. For the most part its about a 1% difference either way. The better your endgame weapon the more Demon is favored.
-Wolf Emblem depends on your play style. I have no trouble remembering to use Wolf Emblem as often as possible so the 40% is better than the 20% but permanent buff. Most bosses can be killed in the length of a demon Wolf Emblem or just slightly over. With mobs the running distance between mob groups is basically your cooldown. So it may be active less than half the time you're playing, but you can have it on almost all the time you're actually doing combat.

Btw, for a low budget sin both culti's have advantages. Because sage sins get damage reduction they can start soloing a little sooner. Not as fast, but sooner. Demon's need to get more refines on their armor and hp before they can survive using their aps and paint heals alone. But once refined I think demon's have an easier time surviving due to better dps and more paint heals, as well as quicker heals (ex. healing 5 times a second vs 3.33 times). Sage sins may start being able to farm gear sooner, but to compete dps wise they need more -int gear, which is very expensive. A demon can be 3.33 about 150 mil sooner than a sage. That's why most people consider demon the cheaper path, is because they need less gear for the equivilant aps.

Sage does have the better skills for high dph hits. Does skill spamming for high dph compare to high aps perma spark? No. Not even close. Like 6 times the difference.

HeIlsFury - Heavens Tear

Awesome. Thanks for the speedy response.

Yea, If it's in the hundreds of millions to get 3.33 APS on a sage, then clearly Demon is the way I'll be going the first time around. I can always build a sage later on a new character if I get the gear and get bored.

Though isn't sage DD 90% whereas Demon is 60%? I feel like that's a huge difference.

Stalker - Lothranis

HeIlsFury - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Awesome. Thanks for the speedy response.

Yea, If it's in the hundreds of millions to get 3.33 APS on a sage, then clearly Demon is the way I'll be going the first time around. I can always build a sage later on a new character if I get the gear and get bored.

Though isn't sage DD 90% whereas Demon is 60%? I feel like that's a huge difference.

Demon is 75%, however it only applies to weapon damage. A 15% difference in weapon damage won't be significant in pretty much any situation you can think of.

InControl - Lost City

Typhyse - Sanctuary wrote: »

The hell are you smoking? That's only if one limits oneself to daggers.

FAIL SIN. LOL.
...and proud.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

HeIlsFury - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Awesome. Thanks for the speedy response.

Yea, If it's in the hundreds of millions to get 3.33 APS on a sage, then clearly Demon is the way I'll be going the first time around. I can always build a sage later on a new character if I get the gear and get bored.

Though isn't sage DD 90% whereas Demon is 60%? I feel like that's a huge difference.

It's 90% sage vs 75% + 2 crit for demon, and that's a weapon multiplier. To compare, every 150 dex is 1 multiplier and you'll have 450+. Other things that add to your dd are usually in the form of weapon multipliers. In the end the 15% weapon multiplier difference is almost exactly equal, and when you get into high refined G15 or R9 daggers the 2% crit (which is a total damage multiplier, not just a weapon damage multiplier) is actualy greater than the 15%. Either way you'll be within 2% of the other mastery, sage or demon. Some prefer demon dagger devotion for the added chance of a lucky crit in pvp.

thumbs

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Sage does have the better skills for high dph hits. Does skill spamming for high dph compare to high aps perma spark? No. Not even close. Like 6 times the difference.

4.0 base for sage achieves perma-spark on it's own. Wind Shield grants sages 5.0 aps for when it makes a difference. Keep on trolling.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

thumbs wrote: »

4.0 base for sage achieves perma-spark on it's own. Wind Shield grants sages 5.0 aps for when it makes a difference. Keep on trolling.

Read the question again and my response. He's asking about skill spam with high dph vs aps auto attack. Everyone knows what you just wrote and you didn't bother to read either the question or the response, so who is trolling?