Anyone worred that Wizards will die?

NinnaXXX - Sanctuary wrote: »

With Rank8 out and the cheap reps wizzs are coming back out of their caves b:chuckle i kno alot of friends who started making wizz alts

Bzzzt, sorry, this does not conform with Mumintroll's wishful thinking of the game dying out as fast as he/she/it would like. Therefore, it merits another bazillion posts about how wizards and the game are dying, despite quitting the game 6 months ago. I always rely on people who don't play the game for information on what's going on in game.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Bzzzt, sorry, this does not conform with Mumintroll's wishful thinking of the game dying out as fast as he/she/it would like. Therefore, it merits another bazillion posts about how wizards and the game are dying, despite quitting the game 6 months ago. I always rely on people who don't play the game for information on what's going on in game.

My theory is supported by numbers of playing wizards. The fact is, this game become most unbalanced MMO I ever seen. And yes. The game IDEA is already death. The classes were built for some specific use. Every character had a place in squad. What is now? Everything is ruined. All idea of game.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Bzzzt, sorry, this does not conform with Mumintroll's wishful thinking of the game dying out as fast as he/she/it would like. Therefore, it merits another bazillion posts about how wizards and the game are dying, despite quitting the game 6 months ago. I always rely on people who don't play the game for information on what's going on in game.

Its just not even wizzies is seems like every class but Venos, Clerics, BM's, and Sins....b:surrender

If anyone on Sanc thinks wizzies are dying out then throw me a PM and meet me outside SZ with PK switched on....I'll be happy to demonstrate otherwiseb:laugh

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

We currently have a situation where 5aps characters can do things which other characters can not.

-Such as?

There's a lot I can do that they can't.

Regenbogen - Lost City wrote: »

5min nirvana?

I can 1 shot 50+ mobs w/o getting hit without having to pay for and wait for help to do Nirvana (try that with 5aps). Also, not every 5aps can do 5m Nirvana (is this even really possible?). -Some can't even out dps me (caster) and I have -20% HP debuff, +30% amp, armor/ mind breaks, purge, etc. A good veno is better than another 5aps in such a squad.

If a 5aps can not out dps you as a caster. It must be either because:
1) You lie
2) You are talking only about multiple mobs.
3) You out gear that 5aps by more than 50 times. (If some one has 5 aps they will not have weak gears).
4) The 5 aps user lags like a ****
5) The 5apser epically fails.

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

Permaspark?

Isn't most of the offensive benefit from erupting consumed by the time it takes anyway? I'm not familiar with the melee versions and what real benefit that is, but I know for us casters it keeps us from running out of MP while keeping the dmg up. We also have enough channeling to be able to spam Lending Hand without running out of spark. Sorry if I'm being naive, but I'm just not aware of why it matters.

hahahahahahah1 wrote:

If a 5aps can not out dps you as a caster. It must be either because:
1) You lie
2) You are talking only about multiple mobs.
3) You out gear that 5aps by more than 50 times. (If some one has 5 aps they will not have weak gears).
4) The 5 aps user lags like a ****
5) The 5apser epically fails.

I think you're being naive here. Claw grants already 1.43 hps. 5aps is only between 3-4 times that. -66% channeling yields about 2x the dps. Already we're talking 2x vs 3-4x of raw dmg (no where near 50x). Now my attack level is approaching 50+, I'm pure mag, and have +mag bonuses even on my channeling gears. My weapon is also +10 which can make a huge difference. Also, with mag: there are no misses. I'm sure the 5aps can catch up fast in dmg. I don't think having unrefined weapon and survival shards in gears equates to fail if they've just managed to achieve 5aps. My dps is pretty good. Others have told me better than some archers with +10 HS w/o the pet's assistance.

Kibble - Raging Tide wrote: »

Isn't there a cap of -60% chan? Idk where someone told me this.

Nope. I know people on DW who have -80%+ chan with demon spark b:shocked

Kibble - Raging Tide wrote: »

Isn't there a cap of -60% chan? Idk where someone told me this.

Afaics: it's just rumor. I've observed the results to be expected from the -20% buff a cleric can provide on top of -66%. There was another rumor that the limit was 74%, then another that after 70% there is no channeling. There's also a rumor that you can force the xp/rep reward on glitched bosses by delaying the tabbing, and another one that 5aps does 50x the dps of a caster.

Admante - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You're forgetting that spark gives bonus to attack damage too, not just speed. Going from 3.33 to 5 aps while increasing damage 2-3x and having the spark effect on constantly is something that casters can't match (for single targets). My BM does about 72k dps sparked and unlike a caster, I can keep it up indefinitely on bosses.

Who's forgetting? You don't have the spark effect of higher dps while you're erupting. Demon eruption for BM gives 500% of weapon dmg, I get 900% of magic attack. Deicide refined to +10 gives about 1k for weapon atk. My matk is around 11k. APS is capped at 5, so you don't get the aps bonus if you're already 5aps. Which is better: to be in state of eruption more (doing no dmg), or do more dmg per eruption? It'd be nice if someone had the figures on how long the eruption takes so we could compute the percentage of downtime.

One idea that's been going around my mind is whether 5aps can do decent AoE with their -int weapon? I could be wrong, but it appears they switch to axes or poleaxe for AoE. It seems like -int isn't just a lot more expensive on it's own; but also for having to maintain 2 weapons to be dynamic.

Allynna_ - Dreamweaver wrote: »

500% more weapon damage is equal to having 750 more Str, or Dex when figuring out how much your base atk bonus is. Most Fist users have ~150-400 str max, so it makes a large impact over their base str. The Magic classes' spark gives 700% more WEAPON damage also , which is equal to 700 extra magic (though Sage Veno's is apparently 900%, which is 900 more Magic). A lot of pure magic probably caster's have ~400-550 magic, so the gap between sparked and un-sparked damage is a lot bigger for Fist users than Magic classes.

Thanks for the clarification. It appears to me that either has the effect of giving 2-3x more dmg. Now does anyone know the duration of an eruption?

Not to mention they can build as much chi per second at 5APS than a -100% channeling caster spamming Burning Scarab without the cool down can (which would be about 25 chi per second, except the cool down is too long to spam that non-stop).

But can we show in numbers how that chi affects dps?

Most spells have at least a .8 to 1 second cast time which pretty much limits their max spells per second, and the ones you can spam at that rate have either too long a cool down, or don't generate enough chi. Also, 5APSers have more crit and are not reliant on mana to keep their attacks up.

MP is a non issue. Chi again needs to show numbers for it's effect on dps (might need duration of eruption for this). More crit is a good counter to the fact they can miss.

It's really the perma-spark IMO that kinda makes 5APS the powerhouse it is.

Wouldn't that be for 3.33aps?

If there was no cap on -channeling and over 100% ate into cast time to, I could see casters being more viable. Though if -channeling effected Dragon's Breath that could make Wizards pretty deadly at DPS if they could keep their MP pool up . . .

We are viable. This discussion has hinged on 1vs1 dps, and I think but am not sure that we can conclude that mage 1-1 dmg isn't anywhere near as bad as 1/50th that of 5aps even for a veno w/o pet. I believe it's more like 1/2. Now if it is on average 1/2; then only idiots are going to wait around for 1/2 hour longer to find a 5aps to run things like FF. - Especially when we have them beat at AoE. It's not like we haven't seen wizards soloing bosses like Black Hole Devourer with ease, or a veno that can round up ~50 mobs and 1 shot AoE them w/o getting touched. Nirvana is new. Nirvana favors 1-1 dps. Too much attention and focus is on Nirvana which helps support the ignorance of casters.

Many of us casters are still thriving. Wiz's have many opportunities for rebirth. As a veno, I'm often able to make a 5aps do more than double their dps in addition to my dps.

Thanks for the clarification. It appears to me that either has the effect of giving 2-3x more dmg. Now does anyone know the duration of an eruption?

Sage/Demon Eruption lasts 15 seconds, but the first three seconds (in which your invulnerable) you can't do anything, so you have 12 seconds of sparked attacks. Also, for a Fist Archer/Assasin minimum str would be a bit over 150 with items at best. 500% MORE weapon damage pretty much gives them ~5x more damage over their base damage. For a 300 str BM, thats still ~2.5x damage. 700 more effective magic when you already have 400-450 is a little over 2x extra at best.

But can we show in numbers how that chi affects dps?

Well, a BM/Sin/Archer/Barb get 5 Chi per second, 5 Attacks per second, means 25 chi a second, which generates 300 chi in 12 seconds, coincidentally just fast enough to spark the second their spark ends. As I pointed out above that's about 2.2x more damage (for a 350 str char) to 5x more damage (for a 150 str char).
If it takes 3 second pause to actually spark, Phys 5APS classes are spending 12/15 seconds, 4/5ths of their time, sparked.

MP is a non issue. Chi again needs to show numbers for it's effect on dps (might need duration of eruption for this). More crit is a good counter to the fact they can miss.

So, I'm going to say we have Bob the level 100 Wizard. Bob has -50% channeling. The two fastest spells Bob has are Pyrogram, and Gush. With Bob's -chan, Pyro takes 0.75 seconds to channel, and 0.8 to cast, Gush 0.5 and 1. Thats about 2 spells every 3 seconds, each one giving 10 chi, so 20 chi in 3 seconds. Which means in order to generate 300 chi, he needs to fire off that combo 15 times, each time taking just over 3 seconds, so thats 45 seconds to generate the chi needed. If he spends 45 seconds to generate that chi, including the 3 second pause at the start, for every 48 seconds of attacking, he spends 12 of it (1/4th the time) sparked.

Wouldn't that be for 3.33aps?

Yes, but Demon spark boosts it to 5APS, and Sins/Archer can have 5APS base with enough -int on Fists/Claws.

We are viable. This discussion has hinged on 1vs1 dps, and I think but am not sure that we can conclude that mage 1-1 dmg isn't anywhere near as bad as 1/50th that of 5aps even for a veno w/o pet. I believe it's more like 1/2. Now if it is on average 1/2; then only idiots are going to wait around for 1/2 hour longer to find a 5aps to run things like FF. - Especially when we have them beat at AoE. It's not like we haven't seen wizards soloing bosses like Black Hole Devourer with ease, or a veno that can round up ~50 mobs and 1 shot AoE them w/o getting touched. Nirvana is new. Nirvana favors 1-1 dps. Too much attention and focus is on Nirvana which helps support the ignorance of casters.

Of course casters are Viable, but with -int stacking exponentially and the larger effect spark has on Physical classes. the gap is noticeable. Yeah, a Magic class is more fun to play, and are better to AoE than a pure APS character The APS Character can be a 1v1 DPSing farming machine, and then switch back to a weapon for other things. Also, the -int equipment at end game can give you high level of survivability, while a lot of -channeling, not so much.

IMO that's the real problem that -interval builds can use very similar gear for what they might need in other parts of the game, while casters might need two different sets of gear depending on what they need to do that day.

Allynna_ - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Sage/Demon Eruption lasts 15 seconds, but the first three seconds (in which your invulnerable) you can't do anything, so you have 12 seconds of sparked attacks. Also, for a Fist Archer/Assasin minimum str would be a bit over 150 with items at best. 500% MORE weapon damage pretty much gives them ~5x more damage over their base damage. For a 300 str BM, thats still ~2.5x damage. 700 more effective magic when you already have 400-450 is a little over 2x extra at best.

I've been referring to my venomancer which gets 900% *though this is a wiz thread. My veno currently has ~525-575mag (571 @ -66%). A wizard would have slightly more matk with the same amount of mag (possibly compensating for difference).

Well, a BM/Sin/Archer/Barb get 5 Chi per second, 5 Attacks per second, means 25 chi a second, which generates 300 chi in 12 seconds, coincidentally just fast enough to spark the second their spark ends.

Sage veno has 20% chance to gain 30 chi on Venemous 1.5s/ch 1s cast or about 1 shot every 1.5s (channeling can go well beyond my meager -66% also). Normal chi gained for Venomous is 10 per hit (& never misses). Sage veno also gets 15chi for Lucky Scarab (not spammable) which is 1.5s/ch .8s/cast. Noxious gives 20 chi and benefits most from -ch out of the 3 as it's cast time is .8s but ch time is 2.5. Sage wizard's have pyrogram which like Venemous has 20% chance to gain 30 chi. Wizards also have Essential Sutra which can give them 0 channeling for 6 seconds for only 2 sparks, and their Wellspring Quaff can double dmg for 15s w/ instant cast for 1 spark making Wizards a little more complex. This bears repeating: double dmg for 15s for a single spark. -whew!

As I pointed out above that's about 2.2x more damage (for a 350 str char) to 5x more damage (for a 150 str char).
If it takes 3 second pause to actually spark, Phys 5APS classes are spending 12/15 seconds, 4/5ths of their time, sparked.

-Ty!

Yes, but Demon spark boosts it to 5APS, and Sins/Archer can have 5APS base with enough -int on Fists/Claws.

That was my point.

Of course casters are Viable, but with -int stacking exponentially and the larger effect spark has on Physical classes. the gap is noticeable.

The spark effect appears only slightly larger. I've always seen about 2x effect from it on my veno. -int stacking exponentially is nice; but limited. You don't get -int from ornaments like we get -ch, and it's limited to 5aps. My meager -66% can be improved on.

Yeah, a Magic class is more fun to play, and are better to AoE than a pure APS character The APS Character can be a 1v1 DPSing farming machine, and then switch back to a weapon for other things. Also, the -int equipment at end game can give you high level of survivability, while a lot of -channeling, not so much.

Melee users benefit far more from survivability than ranged (we can handle the loss).

For the sake of the thread: I almost think we can agree that a great mage is going to do about half the 1-1 dd of a 5aps (not 1/50), and that 5aps isn't always worth the time waiting for.

Now if I've convinced anyone: lets talk about my pets -lol

Ok, just 1- Scorpion with 4078atk and non reduced dmg on [?] doing a double dmg hit every 8s. Scorpion also has Howl yielding -36% mdef for 15s (cd is 30 but can be timed with eruption), oh, did I mention that my DD pets have Claw (+30% patk in addition to the 4078). The aggro or dmg distribution between pet and caster is what gave venos a very unfair advantage in Public Quest ch.2.

KAZMOENEEK - Heavens Tear wrote: »

uhh i thought wizzies died like a year ago..hell i killed mine at 86 like ..hel i cant even count when lolol.So man just use fist/daggers now days u dont need a wizb:chuckle they are just bland anyways..oh tweakz..uhhh come on look what u have on..ok

I ended up loving playing a venomancer way more than a wiz. -However: A wiz is a lot more hands-free, and cheaper. It's an ideal multi-box companion and still a viable toon for squads. Although it's weak at Nirvana: my most preferred people to roll with there is a Wiz and his wife.

Look at your wizzie forum's stickies. -They aren't helping in how they paint LA as a decent build! We have the same problem in the veno forum in regards to stickies. LA, Vit build? -lol. PW would make less profit if they stickied good advice. Even the biggest WC spamming idiot wizard on HT finally switched from LA to AA, yet these fail guides are still up.