Sage Barbs - Real or Myth?
LongWushi - Heavens Tear
Posts: 138 Arc User
More and more I'm coming across barbs that just fail hardcore as a tank. I understand that the super DD BMs and Sins are making it harder to play as a real barb, but where did you all go? Real barbs are the whole point to my cleric really. Demon barbs are fail (admittedly a few play demon very well, but just a few). They squish too fast.
1. I am a cleric. I go squish. I need a real barb to give me a good buff and snatch agro fast to save everyone's life, mine included, without going squish him/herself (for the ladies playing barbs).
2. I thought the whole point to a barb was to tank. That is what that class is made for right? Specifically tanking?
3. And I also thought the whole idea to a squad was to let the BEST tank do the tanking and the DDs manage their attacks so they aren't killing themselves unnecessarily.
At what point did this change that barbs became... obsolete? I have heard tales where real barbs were told to let the sin or BM tank. I'm sorry. I want the barb to tank. I will take a barb tank over a BM (unless it happens to be a particular BM I leveled up with on my veno). I will take a barb tank over a sin, hands down.
Demon build barbs will not run rebirth well if they cannot survive the Lure. Demon build barbs will not run FF well if they cannot survive the Lure. Maybe a BM could take their place there, but I would feel safer with a real tiger. Demon barbs are a desperate attempt to turn this class into a DD and it's not working, not in my opinion.
Where did you go? Will you come back? There are some of us who miss you.
With love from a real cleric who misses real barbs.
1. I am a cleric. I go squish. I need a real barb to give me a good buff and snatch agro fast to save everyone's life, mine included, without going squish him/herself (for the ladies playing barbs).
2. I thought the whole point to a barb was to tank. That is what that class is made for right? Specifically tanking?
3. And I also thought the whole idea to a squad was to let the BEST tank do the tanking and the DDs manage their attacks so they aren't killing themselves unnecessarily.
At what point did this change that barbs became... obsolete? I have heard tales where real barbs were told to let the sin or BM tank. I'm sorry. I want the barb to tank. I will take a barb tank over a BM (unless it happens to be a particular BM I leveled up with on my veno). I will take a barb tank over a sin, hands down.
Demon build barbs will not run rebirth well if they cannot survive the Lure. Demon build barbs will not run FF well if they cannot survive the Lure. Maybe a BM could take their place there, but I would feel safer with a real tiger. Demon barbs are a desperate attempt to turn this class into a DD and it's not working, not in my opinion.
Where did you go? Will you come back? There are some of us who miss you.
With love from a real cleric who misses real barbs.
Post edited by LongWushi - Heavens Tear on
0
Comments
-
I have been playing a Barb since I found the Wizzy to Squishy for my playing style. I think I am pretty good as a barb. I went Sage because it was the type I thought was best for me. I think that a true Tank needs the sage abilities and buffs. I for one love to tank and have the hard hits laid on me. If I fail as a barb I know the rest of my party will fall and that is something I hate more than anything else. If the demon barbs can handle good hits then let them tank if not then it is time for the real Barbs to step up and be noticed. I have yet to see a good enough BM tank Polearm at lvl 70 but as a Barb I was tanking him at lvl 65. I will say that without a good cleric most barbs are just fluff me included but I can stand longer than most.
I will continue to play my little barb until I find a better class for tanking.0 -
Sage Barbs still have a role, it may not be big, but it can still be of benefits. Sage Barbs are nice for cata-pulling. Sage Barbs can still hurt in PvP. Just depends on your goals.
Demon Barbs are popular due to the skills being very nice, perhaps even OP if you want. The -int frenzy is a bonus if you understand the build and can fund its cost.
Tanking can get difficult at about lvl 95.. At that point, Barbs are useless for tanking, however, the buffs are very very nice. Everyone at that point want -int players.
At lvl 100+, Barbs usually don't tank unless you have 5.0 aps. Loads of ppl are nukes with r8/G15 Nirv weapon at +10 or higher, at that point, aggro just bonuces in a squad without a 5.0 aps user. Barbs can only do so much! lol
Point is, Sage Barbs lost their concept with the state of the game. If you really love being Sage though, by all means, stay Sage. lol[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
b:flowerHave a Techno Rave Flower!b:flower
-Self-Proclaimed TW commentator of HT-
-Certified Barbarian Master-
-You gained +10 coolness points for viewing this signature-
-Master of Coffee-0 -
Knownase - Heavens Tear wrote: »Tanking can get difficult at about lvl 95.. At that point, Barbs are useless for tanking, however, the buffs are very very nice. Everyone at that point want -int players.
At lvl 100+, Barbs usually don't tank unless you have 5.0 aps. Loads of ppl are nukes with r8/G15 Nirv weapon at +10 or higher, at that point, aggro just bounces in a squad without a 5.0 aps user. Barbs can only do so much! lol
Point is, Sage Barbs lost their concept with the state of the game. If you really love being Sage though, by all means, stay Sage. lol
That is the biggest load of hogwash I have seen in a long time. Useless for tanking? Lost their concept? Why do so many squads cry in world chat for hours looking for a barb to tank the BH TTs? Is it because only a barb can tank them? Disregarding they are hard as all get up to do in the first place.
Agreed a barb can only do so much, but it is the squad's responsibility to be the BEST DD they can be while letting the barb do his/her job of tanking. When I started my cleric and read up on the threads for how to play the class, problems others had playing it (in squad, duo, and solo), and just being decent if not good, it was all about the tank. The tank is the barb. That point was made very clear, not only on the cleric boards but the veno boards and others. The point made was to let him (her) do the tanking and to be a good little DD and not steal from them.
Dark is a barb I have run with and continue to run with. I met him when we were doing 59 for BHs and when he reached his 80s I had him helping my veno with her BHs in 79 and 89. Because I love my veno and she is my favorite as my first successful character, I did the really stupid thing of fighting him for agro on a boss I knew I couldn't and shouldn't tank. I did it anyway and he held agro beautifully.
My veno is no push over, but any good barb can hold agro from good DDs. Meaning DDs that know how to DD without taking agro. That is their place - their job. I will probably get in trouble for saying that since I very much like to DD on my cleric, but I know very well how to put on a few heals and get my licks in as well. Another reason not to like squishy tanks is their maintainence. They need constant vigilance on their HP and that is really boring. It is the equivalent of putting BB or RB up and sitting in it till the boss is dead. Not that I am saying BB/RB are bad skills, just really boring to use.
Squishy tanks are absolutely worthless.0 -
Why do you insist that demon barbs are fail? b:cryIt's a game and I'm proud to be a stupid fail demon barb!
My EPIC Fail Demon Barb has 40k/48k HP and my stat points are as follows:
VIT 552 STR 310 DEX 60! b:surrender0 -
Because I have never seen one do a good job? Because the demon barbs have like 10k (or was it almost 15k?) HP buffed in tiggy form and use claws. Because even though I dropped like 10 IHs on him he still died (it was some evil boss in Abba, the one that looks like Pole I think). Because I think the APS/INT stuff is ridiculous. Because I'm from the time when Dragons owned a fair portion of the map and RoC was seen a faction of KS/PK jerks and Rad or Evo were the factions to be in and almost every baby barb was going sage. Suddenly it all changes and I can't for the life of me understand why someone would want to replace a perfectly good sage tigger with a perfectly squishy other class with about half the HP and whose only key to keeping agro is the fact they can get ten hits in while you are just getting your second or third.
If you would like to prove that not all of you fail hardcore I will certainly run a dungeon with you sometime. Which means you must tank and keep agro (or at least hold it 85% of the time). This is what I expect of barbs, even demon ones.0 -
LongWushi - Heavens Tear wrote: »Because I have never seen one do a good job? Because the demon barbs have like 10k (or was it almost 15k?) HP buffed in tiggy form and use claws. Because even though I dropped like 10 IHs on him he still died (it was some evil boss in Abba, the one that looks like Pole I think). Because I think the APS/INT stuff is ridiculous. Because I'm from the time when Dragons owned a fair portion of the map and RoC was seen a faction of KS/PK jerks and Rad or Evo were the factions to be in and almost every baby barb was going sage. Suddenly it all changes and I can't for the life of me understand why someone would want to replace a perfectly good sage tigger with a perfectly squishy other class with about half the HP and whose only key to keeping agro is the fact they can get ten hits in while you are just getting your second or third.
If you would like to prove that not all of you fail hardcore I will certainly run a dungeon with you sometime. Which means you must tank and keep agro (or at least hold it 85% of the time). This is what I expect of barbs, even demon ones.
Rage much? Saying you've never seen a demon barb do a good job seems like a stretch, but maybe you've just had especially terrible luck at finding barbs.0 -
Yes rage much. It's not a stretch. It's ridiculous. The only demon barbs that I can remember having any semblance of being decent was when my veno was in Triad, but it was only for one TT run and that's not a very good platform. I see demon barbs running around with claws or fists on and wonder what the hell went wrong that suddenly being a sage barb is like having the plague.
I do seem to have bad luck with barbs when I have a demon barb with 10k HP UNBUFFED in tigger form agro two blue rhinos and Phlebo and go splat at the top of the hill. He wiped out half of the squad and I was forced to solo tank the rhinos and escape Phelo because anyone left standing wouldn't help me. That's some stupidity. He could have at least buffed himself before agroing mobs. He could have at least put Ream on them. He could have tried to do something other than let the sin and second cleric die.
It's bad luck that when you need a real tank you can't find one. In that particular instance the assassin and wizard were plenty happy to step back a bit and let a sage barb do the tanking. Not everyone plays badly, true, but I haven't met one that does play well. I will recant many words as soon as I am proven wrong and that means doing several runs with any demon barb willing to do so. As a Doubting Thomas, I need to see it, touch it, feel it, experience it to believe it.0 -
Not all demon barbs are fail, just some people are stupid. Not all demon barbs are claw barbs and not all demon barb have fail hp. (not all claw barbs are fail either, just need to know how to make the build and have the cash to support it. When I was claw I had 15/18)
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=7ae752c1b2a3aad3 b:surrender
Anytime you want to run a instance and don't plan to bring 5aps people with you just pm me. b:victoryIt's a game and I'm proud to be a stupid fail demon barb!
My EPIC Fail Demon Barb has 40k/48k HP and my stat points are as follows:
VIT 552 STR 310 DEX 60! b:surrender0 -
SteelStar - Heavens Tear wrote: »Anytime you want to run a instance and don't play to bring 5aps people with you just pm me. b:victory
Har har. Then I shall at least make sure I have DDs that will give you a run for your money. That should make it fair, should it not?0 -
SteelStar - Heavens Tear wrote: »Not all demon barbs are fail, just some people are stupid. Not all demon barbs are claw barbs and not all demon barb have fail hp. not all claw barbs are fail either, just need to know how to make the build and have the cash to support it.
me. b:victory
True
and preferably can it be Abba instance :O i think mono is the best challenge for most squishy demon barbs ive seen and lowest Hp ive seen is 10k in +5-7 armor for demon claw barb b:pleased Fashion Mastery
"The skill for fashion tailoring. A master who is proficient in
producing fashion can make the most eye-catching, colorful clothes around!"0 -
Well your only lvl 92, so maybe u just cant heal high enough to keep them alive?Also, it takes a while for demon barbs to develop, there skills cost money <_<. While sage barbs have the majority of everything thats good for them right off the bat i.e sage tiger form. Demon is and always will be a more harder road to go for barbs, (but way more rewarding). I see sage as the cheap way out.0
-
LongWushi - Heavens Tear wrote: »Har har. Then I shall at least make sure I have DDs that will give you a run for your money. That should make it fair, should it not?
When you say a run for the money are you referring to a +12 wiz, might as well just bring a squad of 5aps... If your talking realistic people with a average set of gear then I'm all for it. No matter sage or demon you'll never hold aggro from a 3.33+asp or +11-12 wiz.It's a game and I'm proud to be a stupid fail demon barb!
My EPIC Fail Demon Barb has 40k/48k HP and my stat points are as follows:
VIT 552 STR 310 DEX 60! b:surrender0 -
Also something I would like to point out.....
I see this all the time:
DD: Why can't you keep aggro
Barb: Because your smacking a different mob than I am
DD: So?
Like I said there are stupid people out there, I can guarantee anyone that if you hit the same mob I'm hitting you'll never die unless I do. b:shutupIt's a game and I'm proud to be a stupid fail demon barb!
My EPIC Fail Demon Barb has 40k/48k HP and my stat points are as follows:
VIT 552 STR 310 DEX 60! b:surrender0 -
SteelStar - Heavens Tear wrote: »Also something I would like to point out.....
I see this all the time:
DD: Why can you keep aggro
Barb: Because your smacking a different mob than I am
DD: So?
Like I said there are stupid people out there, I can guarantee anyone that if you hit the same mob I'm hitting you'll never die unless I do. b:shutup
Amen to this post. This is my favorite scenario I've seen:
Wiz: You won't be able to hold agro on me if I go all out (he only had a +5 TT 90 mag sword)
Me: Yeah I can, go crazy bud and let's drop him quick (we're in bh 79, I'm tanking for a buddy who's in squad b/c he couldnt find a tank)
*boss gets pulled, I ream, no agro lost ever during fight, Linus is down.
Me: Alright, pull Brig
*as someone is pulling Brig w/ genie, Wiz 3 sparks before Brig is even off his platform, starts firing and agros Brig and all his mobs.
Me: *sigh* everyone stand back.
*Wizzie dies
Wiz: QQ you can't keep agro.
Me: No, you're a moron.
*Wiz gets kicked, we finish bh.0 -
LongWushi - Heavens Tear wrote: »That is the biggest load of hogwash I have seen in a long time. Useless for tanking? Lost their concept? Why do so many squads cry in world chat for hours looking for a barb to tank the BH TTs? Is it because only a barb can tank them? Disregarding they are hard as all get up to do in the first place.
Agreed a barb can only do so much, but it is the squad's responsibility to be the BEST DD they can be while letting the barb do his/her job of tanking. When I started my cleric and read up on the threads for how to play the class, problems others had playing it (in squad, duo, and solo), and just being decent if not good, it was all about the tank. The tank is the barb. That point was made very clear, not only on the cleric boards but the veno boards and others. The point made was to let him (her) do the tanking and to be a good little DD and not steal from them.
Dark is a barb I have run with and continue to run with. I met him when we were doing 59 for BHs and when he reached his 80s I had him helping my veno with her BHs in 79 and 89. Because I love my veno and she is my favorite as my first successful character, I did the really stupid thing of fighting him for agro on a boss I knew I couldn't and shouldn't tank. I did it anyway and he held agro beautifully.
My veno is no push over, but any good barb can hold agro from good DDs. Meaning DDs that know how to DD without taking agro. That is their place - their job. I will probably get in trouble for saying that since I very much like to DD on my cleric, but I know very well how to put on a few heals and get my licks in as well. Another reason not to like squishy tanks is their maintainence. They need constant vigilance on their HP and that is really boring. It is the equivalent of putting BB or RB up and sitting in it till the boss is dead. Not that I am saying BB/RB are bad skills, just really boring to use.
Squishy tanks are absolutely worthless.
Alright,
I did say Sage Barbs "lose their concept". Why? At 100, yea, 100+, when you wanna farm, BH, etc, you will see why the -int hype is sooo ridiculous. The majority of tanks at endgame, are not average barbs. They are any -int with 5.0 aps, 5.0 aps instantly rips aggro. I will say a large majority of 5.0 aps people can tank about anything a Barb can.
Sage Barbs are nice from 89+ to about 98. At 99+, 5.0 aps comes into play, Barbs aren't needed for tanking anymore. I know I said 95+, but for the sake of the post, Im gonna say lvl. 98.
Faster Runs > Slow runs with a vit Barb. People want faster runs, faster runs = more benefits for less time, aka money or EXP. Everyone loves to get things done fast after all right?
Why are Demon Barbs so popular? Because, at endgame, Demon Barbs have way better effects for PvP than Sage. Its just common opinion at that point. It makes Sage less appealing.
I know alot of Sage Barbs who have swapped over to Demon, even one of HT's top barbs retired his Barb and fell for the -int craze on a BM.
So answer this question, would you want a Sage Barb and run TT/Nirv/FF a lot slower?
or a 5.0 aps user who can tank for sure and have a very fast run?[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
b:flowerHave a Techno Rave Flower!b:flower
-Self-Proclaimed TW commentator of HT-
-Certified Barbarian Master-
-You gained +10 coolness points for viewing this signature-
-Master of Coffee-0 -
I see that a lot!Korsov - Heavens Tear wrote: »Amen to this post. This is my favorite scenario I've seen:
Wiz: You won't be able to hold agro on me if I go all out (he only had a +5 TT 90 mag sword)
Me: Yeah I can, go crazy bud and let's drop him quick (we're in bh 79, I'm tanking for a buddy who's in squad b/c he couldnt find a tank)
*boss gets pulled, I ream, no agro lost ever during fight, Linus is down.
Me: Alright, pull Brig
*as someone is pulling Brig w/ genie, Wiz 3 sparks before Brig is even off his platform, starts firing and agros Brig and all his mobs.
Me: *sigh* everyone stand back.
*Wizzie dies
Wiz: QQ you can't keep agro.
Me: No, you're a moron.
*Wiz gets kicked, we finish bh.
Me: LOL WTF?
DD: Why didn't you save me?
Me: Because your a dumb *** and I have no idea how you even made it to your current level....
Makes me b:chuckle every time.It's a game and I'm proud to be a stupid fail demon barb!
My EPIC Fail Demon Barb has 40k/48k HP and my stat points are as follows:
VIT 552 STR 310 DEX 60! b:surrender0 -
I can tank tt 3-3 with a decent cleric.... Abaddon never been a problem... unless once again the cleric is... special. & I dont have even 14k hp like the barbs you complain about.
I'm curently sitting in bh delta with a 14k hp buffed tiger form barb & he's doing fine.
Furthermore just cause barb is demon doesnt mean he'll have **** hp. If he's dex built for fists & doesn't bother refining the gear then it's a prob.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Xnastyx - Lost City wrote: »Well your only lvl 92, so maybe u just cant heal high enough to keep them alive?Also, it takes a while for demon barbs to develop, there skills cost money <_<. While sage barbs have the majority of everything thats good for them right off the bat i.e sage tiger form. Demon is and always will be a more harder road to go for barbs, (but way more rewarding). I see sage as the cheap way out.
Sage is the cheap way out???
*sigh*
Wushi, sucks that we're on different servers; we would definitely work well together. I read your posts and I wholeheartedly agreed with everything said. (Hope it's not a provocation though....)
I never liked the low accuracy/evasion of barbs at lower lvls, so I kinda built a hybrid instead of a plain meat shield. At 89 I went sage, because I might use the extra hp. My hp isn't so bad, but sometimes people make assumptions about it before they see me in action. I pride myself on holding aggro well most of the time. It often shocks people. Though, with every lvl I see the struggling barbs and the jacks 5aps people...
There is a choice, so sure, go demon if you want..., but going claw barb is just wrong for me... I refuse to conform with these 'standards'. Vit build barb going demon, seems ok, vit/str/dex barb going sage, ok, but dex barb going demon....
The thing is that again, it comes to cash shopping, and/or in game fortune. You can go demon and have more hp than a sage barb, because you might have the cash to get more sockets, more +10 vit stones, etc. Vit is not very important to me. It can easily be altered.
Besides coins, it is a lot about people you squad with. If a dder charges in on a boss without asking if everyone is ready, while barb has no chi... and then the dder triple sparks... That can't be right. In such squads I hope I have smart clerics that will let the 'dder' die.
What I noticed is that most of the 'awesome' people, with best gear and refines and sockets, are people with huge egos. They will complain a lot, while trying to be a hero..0 -
I R BARB.
I tank. Rawr.
More HP and defence make me a better tank.
Sage gives more HP and defence.
Sage barbs are better tanks.
So some people construct overly simplistic arguments and choose/unable to analysis beyond it, well you know what? Thats alright, this is just a game, and you play the game the way you want to.
But here is the thing, if you start berating the way other people choose to play to make yourself feel better about your choice, then be ready to cop ****.
There is nothing in PvE that a decently geared and skilled demon or interval barb can not tank or pull, on the contrary, we can tank and make more than a minute contribution to squad damage output. We're here and we're versatile, deal with it.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
my opinion
Im not even cloes to being sage or Demon at this point, but, when i was lvl5x i made the choice to go Demon, because every one told me i couldn't that i'd suck, well looks like i was right wasn't i, Demon is probably the better way to go, but right now im thinking sage.
is still have 15 odd levels to make a decision,
i want to choose the one that will balance out my build, so no im thinking of capping my dex at 60-80, so im thinking sage to balance that out and give me better hp, plus, more hp, the bigger your arma, if i do change my mind, (which i probably will with the new classes and content coming out) i will adjust my build accordingly so that they balance eachother, if i just cap my dex at 60, then ill go demon to give me better accuracy, if i cap it at 80+ ill go sag to give me better HP, im not to sure about the skill differences but ill look at those later, for now, im just going to concentrate on getting there first.
just my 2c
cheers0 -
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
b:flowerHave a Techno Rave Flower!b:flower
-Self-Proclaimed TW commentator of HT-
-Certified Barbarian Master-
-You gained +10 coolness points for viewing this signature-
-Master of Coffee-0 -
Xnastyx - Lost City wrote: »Well your only lvl 92, so maybe u just cant heal high enough to keep them alive?Also, it takes a while for demon barbs to develop, there skills cost money. I see sage as the cheap way out.
Wow. I will have you know that for my level I have my veno's cast off TT90 gear, with the exception of the gold sleeves, which had to be re-made for this character. I have the use of an Aquadash that is +7 and secondary weapons that are +5. I generally more HP and MP than clerics several levels above me. Like today, there was a L98 cleric squaded with me who had 500 LESS HP and 300 LESS MP. It's not a lot, true, but my gear was better too, but if there is a five or six level gap between us and I have that much more already, I am the better cleric in build. In a previous BH79 run there were three cleric and I was the one of the lowest leveled (there was another 91 and a 95 or so) but I had the highest magic attack. You might want to think a little before you spew garbage.
Yes, skills cost money, we all know this. That was a cheap cop out.SteelStar - Heavens Tear wrote: »When you say a run for the money are you referring to a +12 wiz, might as well just bring a squad of 5aps... If your talking realistic people with a average set of gear then I'm all for it. No matter sage or demon you'll never hold aggro from a 3.33+asp or +11-12 wiz.
No, the only ridiculously overpowered wizard I know is Evanera. My friends will suffice.Knownase - Heavens Tear wrote: »So answer this question, would you want a Sage Barb and run TT/Nirv/FF a lot slower?
or a 5.0 aps user who can tank for sure and have a very fast run?
Absolutely. Unless I'm sure of how much I can rush, I don't mind going a little slower to make sure it is done with fewer casualties. The reality is if the cleric goes down there is no one to come and save them. I know more good sage barbs to demon ones and I would not mind spending extra time getting something done. Of course, the sagey barbs I know also make up for their lack of DD power in other ways. Such as rushing/mobbing ability and they are about as crazy as I am when it comes to doing something new.Axelire - Heavens Tear wrote: »So some people construct overly simplistic arguments and choose/unable to analysis beyond it, well you know what? Thats alright, this is just a game, and you play the game the way you want to.
There is nothing in PvE that a decently geared and skilled demon or interval barb can not tank or pull, on the contrary, we can tank and make more than a minute contribution to squad damage output.
Prove it. It is and I like sage barbs. I want to know where they went. That is why I made this thread. I have seen decently geared d. barbs fall hard. I see this -int/aps (whatever) hype taking over and don't understand why you have to be so fast or so "strong" that when you don't have the HP or defenses to survive a couple hits.0 -
I'm going sage because I became a barb because I wanted to tank. Simple as that.
Speed isn't an objective with me as I mainly play with friends and we couldn't care less. Sure, we'd like to get stuff done sooner rather than later, but I'd like to get the job done thouroughly and with as little risk as possible.
Good friend of mine-prolly one of the best barbs on the server-is sage, so I'll be damned if I'll go demon. If I wanna DD i'll level my BM or sin.If I tear you open wide,and take a look inside;
Are you pretty?
Can I get inside your mind,see what I can find;
Are you pretty?
So just take off that disguise,everyone knows that you're only
Pretty on the Outside.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
LongWushi - Heavens Tear wrote: »Prove it. It is and I like sage barbs. I want to know where they went. That is why I made this thread. I have seen decently geared d. barbs fall hard. I see this -int/aps (whatever) hype taking over and don't understand why you have to be so fast or so "strong" that when you don't have the HP or defenses to survive a couple hits.
Prove what? That my demonstration of the reasoning behind the choice for sage is true for most sage barbs? Ask any sage barbs why they went sage, and most of them will cite "more HP and defence".
Or that it is overly simplistic? Here is one factor that most sage barbs probably didn't think about when they went sage - diminishing returns - "The tendency for a continuing application of effort or skill toward a particular project or goal to decline in effectiveness after a certain level of result has been achieved."
For example, before re-stating I had 20k+ HP as a demon barb, if I were sage, I would've had around 22k HP(?), for practical purposes are you really going to argue that it is going to make any realistic difference? For me, when a barb's hp exceeds 15k, the extra 1-2k doesn't really make any real difference, the threshold might go up and down slightly for different people. If you apply this concept to the extra Pdef that sage barbs get, it becomes even more relevant, thats why you see barbs with Mdef ornaments and not Pdef ornaments.
The two most cited reasons for barbs choosing demon is spike damage and balancing their build. The benefits of an increase in damage output, most noticeably in true form, is far more beneficial, imo, than the extra Pdef and HP a sage barb gets.
Have you considered why the only person who agrees with you in this thread is a level 90 barb? Why all the other 100 barbs disagree with what you have to say?[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
In the later tts like 3-3 the idea is "the fast you kill the better", since the faster you done with a boss, the less apos in cooldown, the less aoes & special skills boss uses, less chance for whipes. Going slower will not help you or make it safer, when the bosses will continually purge, amp & curse you over & over.Absolutely. Unless I'm sure of how much I can rush, I don't mind going a little slower to make sure it is done with fewer casualties.
That was true for me when I was chosing for my barb.is true for most sage barbs? Ask any sage barbs why they went sage, and most of them will cite "more HP and defence".
The thing is besides the diminishing returns & all that other stuff: you don't need 30k or even 20k to tank MOST of the PvE here. Even if you running catapul duty in tw as sage... with the rank sale & blessings that extra hp & def not gona save you from being dropped in a few secs.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Axelire - Heavens Tear wrote: »Prove what? That my demonstration of the reasoning behind the choice for sage is true for most sage barbs? Ask any sage barbs why they went sage, and most of them will cite "more HP and defence".
Or that it is overly simplistic? Here is one factor that most sage barbs probably didn't think about when they went sage - diminishing returns - "The tendency for a continuing application of effort or skill toward a particular project or goal to decline in effectiveness after a certain level of result has been achieved."
Have you considered why the only person who agrees with you in this thread is a level 90 barb? Why all the other 100 barbs disagree with what you have to say?
Thank you for explaining, but I had taken your former statement as an attack on my argument. That is why I said prove it. As to your question I have a L100 barb on my side as well. Or did you discount Dark because he is my friend? And the other barbs are just a broken record of things I already know. Barbs cannot compete with the aps **** going on. It does not change the fact that I have not seen one good d. barb and that the barb class is a specifically tanking class, which they should be allowed to do. That was iterated to me very well on all of my characters. Barbs tank and DDs have to moderate their damage to not take agro and go SPLAT! I just want barbs back where they belong. Having a Sin or a BM or a fail d. barb attempt tanking and splatter and then ask why the died...? It gives me a headache. I have come across a few BMs and Sins who could pull it off well without going to the brink of death. I have yet to see a d. barb do it, which is why Steel and I have a date for a run in a dungeon.VlLKASS - Sanctuary wrote: »In the later tts like 3-3 the idea is "the fast you kill the better", since the faster you done with a boss, the less apos in cooldown, the less aoes & special skills boss uses, less chance for whipes. Going slower will not help you or make it safer, when the bosses will continually purge, amp & curse you over & over.
For this I can understand the whole kill faster part, but I do not get taken into these dungeons yet. I am unfamiliar with them and because I know they are difficult I avoid volunteering for them. I will wait until I am sure I can handle them better and then I will go and learn how it is done.0 -
Korsov - Heavens Tear wrote: »Amen to this post. This is my favorite scenario I've seen:
Wiz: You won't be able to hold agro on me if I go all out (he only had a +5 TT 90 mag sword)
Me: Yeah I can, go crazy bud and let's drop him quick (we're in bh 79, I'm tanking for a buddy who's in squad b/c he couldnt find a tank)
*boss gets pulled, I ream, no agro lost ever during fight, Linus is down.
Me: Alright, pull Brig
*as someone is pulling Brig w/ genie, Wiz 3 sparks before Brig is even off his platform, starts firing and agros Brig and all his mobs.
Me: *sigh* everyone stand back.
*Wizzie dies
Wiz: QQ you can't keep agro.
Me: No, you're a moron.
*Wiz gets kicked, we finish bh.
*vomits continuously* omfg *facepalm* thank you whoever you were wizard, you've given all 20 of us left in the game a bad name... and just think other wizards, don't we always claim phsycics are the hot headed non-logical ones? please tell me you killed that wiz in pvp later...[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
light armor rules, and JOKERZz are the best. shaff, you meh dogg. Neko, you smexy redhead you, yer my favorite veno out there. Evo, yer straight up crazy. Lillie, thanks fer giving LA cerics a good name. hask, what can't you tank? Kyo, yer wizard biuld sucks, and yer obsession with aps annoys me, but eveni will admit, yer a frackin pro. Chick, our dad's would be great friends in rl, and we'd have so much fun messin with them. fer all the rest of the clan, *salutes* at yer service doggs.b:cool0 -
LongWushi - Heavens Tear wrote: »Thank you for explaining, but I had taken your former statement as an attack on my argument. That is why I said prove it. As to your question I have a L100 barb on my side as well. Or did you discount Dark because he is my friend? And the other barbs are just a broken record of things I already know. Barbs cannot compete with the aps **** going on. It does not change the fact that I have not seen one good d. barb and that the barb class is a specifically tanking class, which they should be allowed to do. That was iterated to me very well on all of my characters. Barbs tank and DDs have to moderate their damage to not take agro and go SPLAT! I just want barbs back where they belong. Having a Sin or a BM or a fail d. barb attempt tanking and splatter and then ask why the died...? It gives me a headache. I have come across a few BMs and Sins who could pull it off well without going to the brink of death. I have yet to see a d. barb do it, which is why Steel and I have a date for a run in a dungeon.
I did read Dark's comment when you first started the thread, I must've overlooked it when I was typing my last comment.
I think anyone who has rolled a barb did so with the intention to tank, and that tanking would be their main role. I don't understand how <89 all barbs had the same set of skills to choose from, but suddenly >89 all the barbs that chose to go demon suddenly turned into ****. I can imagine you've met a few bad demon claw/fist barbs who re-stat to interval when they have little interval, abysmal HP, and consequently are bad tanks and DDs. I've seen a few, and have had people tell me stories as I don't get to squad with another barb that often. All I can say is that, if someone fails as a barb it isn't because they went demon or sage, its because they just fail. I think demon barbs stand out more because most barbs that want to go interval, go demon, so potentially more fail (unfinished, jumped the gun) builds.
EDIT: I suggest a full RB Delta run, or a 3-3 since you said you haven't done one yet.b:sin[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Abba or SoT will suffice. I have culti in SoT to do. I would like to run an RB but I have never done one on my cleric. I have done them a few times on my veno. I am uncertain as to how well my cleric would survive a 3-3.0
-
Talking down about demon barb as compare to sage barb either way is like arguing about cleric Sage/demon or any class for that matter.
There is no right or wrong answer. Not all demon barb goes 3str/2dex, some sage barb do go there as well.
I am a demon barb, I have enough str for Heavy armor/ Enough dex for Striking Dragoon the rest of the points i put it in vit.
I have 5aps when i spark. and i can do decent tanking without much party wipe. The only time where something can go wrong is when someone is hitting something totally different or i am stunned.
Let me give u DD point of view,
@ low level 40-60, They do 3 hits and rest to keep aggro
@ 60-88, they do 3 hits and rest + take off their attack blessing/buff/change lower bow
@ 89-98, they do 2-3 hit and rest + take off their attack blessing/buff/change lower bow/even gear
so @ lvl 99-100+
What can they do to hold back aggro?
While @ this point well refine Sin and Bm can tank the boss barbs are tanking without much problem. So why do they have to hold back? and if they don't whats the point of having a sage barb?
If you let a vit sage barb hold aggro, time needed to complete a FC run on average is 1.5-2hr
if everyone almost going all out, with demon barb tanking, time needed to complete a 5 person run is 45 min - 1hr
Do they still need to hold aggro then? Yes
Archer need to wait till I demon spark before they start attacking
BM need to HF more
Sin, need to wait till i demon spark and hold their attack if they are doing way higher dmg then me.
but for most case, i end up as the main tank/Spark healer/Main DD/Sin Puller/Lurer ,
something i eventually come to like.Build Aiming for : pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=99d12b053ed06fe9
Retired : pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=a798089d5502e95b
17k hp since level 92.. now @ 13k Hp on 1000
Categories
- All Categories
- 181.9K PWI
- 699 Official Announcements
- 2 Rules of Conduct
- 264 Cabbage Patch Notes
- 61K General Discussion
- 1.5K Quality Corner
- 11.1K Suggestion Box
- 77.4K Archosaur City
- 3.5K Cash Shop Huddle
- 14.3K Server Symposium
- 18.1K Dungeons & Tactics
- 2K The Crafting Nook
- 4.9K Guild Banter
- 6.6K The Trading Post
- 28K Class Discussion
- 1.9K Arigora Colosseum
- 78 TW & Cross Server Battles
- 337 Nation Wars
- 8.2K Off-Topic Discussion
- 3.7K The Fanatics Forum
- 207 Screenshots and Videos
- 22.8K Support Desk