Sage Barbs - Real or Myth?

AlbireoTwo - Lost City

Do you have a level 100 character?.....

VlLKASS - Sanctuary

I just want barbs back where they belong. Having a Sin or a BM or a fail d. barb attempt tanking and splatter and then ask why the died...?

I still see no reason why you weren't able to heal a barb in abaddon, since almost any class (except squishy casters - even though I've seen some of the mdo it as well) can tank it. A lot here depends on the healer. Not hinting you're bad or anything, but perhaps you missed a stream of rejuv or two or sage vanguard (i duno your culti just giving examples) if you have one; instead of just spamming IH as most clerics do, or haven't stacked enough of it, or not purified in time.

Also a lot depends on what lvl barbs you are running with, since most of the int starts +99/100 & you're 92; or maybe you just squading with fails... who knows.

LongWushi - Heavens Tear

Blood_Panda - Raging Tide wrote: »

Talking down about demon barb as compare to sage barb either way is like arguing about cleric Sage/demon or any class for that matter.

There is no right or wrong answer. Not all demon barb goes 3str/2dex, some sage barb do go there as well.

I am a demon barb, I have enough str for Heavy armor/ Enough dex for Striking Dragoon the rest of the points i put it in vit.

I have 5aps when i spark. and i can do decent tanking without much party wipe. The only time where something can go wrong is when someone is hitting something totally different or i am stunned.

Let me give u DD point of view,

@ low level 40-60, They do 3 hits and rest to keep aggro
@ 60-88, they do 3 hits and rest + take off their attack blessing/buff/change lower bow
@ 89-98, they do 2-3 hit and rest + take off their attack blessing/buff/change lower bow/even gear

so @ lvl 99-100+

What can they do to hold back aggro?

While @ this point well refine Sin and Bm can tank the boss barbs are tanking without much problem. So why do they have to hold back? and if they don't whats the point of having a sage barb?

If you let a vit sage barb hold aggro, time needed to complete a FC run on average is 1.5-2hr
if everyone almost going all out, with demon barb tanking, time needed to complete a 5 person run is 45 min - 1hr

Do they still need to hold aggro then? Yes
Archer need to wait till I demon spark before they start attacking
BM need to HF more
Sin, need to wait till i demon spark and hold their attack if they are doing way higher dmg then me.

but for most case, i end up as the main tank/Spark healer/Main DD/Sin Puller/Lurer ,
something i eventually come to like.

Why is everyone missing the main point of this thread? I ASKED WHERE DID THE SAGE BARBS GO AND WHY PEOPLE DO NOT LIKE THEM ANYMORE. I dislike demon barbs because I have never seen a good one. How many times must I repeat myself before you understand this? Steel and I have a date. He can prove he is a good one and I will fix any of my statements as I please afterwards. So stuff it.

I have seen sage and pre-89 culti barbs run FF in 45m-1hr before the aps craze. It all depends on the squad as a whole, not just the "barb."

AlbireoTwo - Lost City wrote: »

Do you have a level 100 character?.....

I have a L101 Veno. This is my second highest character. I have a L71 Wizard and a L59 HA Veno (for kicks) and a L33 Sin that I rotate playing. I have been through four factions, three of which were major TW factors for a while and one of which currently holds the HT Map. My real life prevents me from playing as much as I used to. Do not be so obnoxious.

VlLKASS - Sanctuary wrote: »

I still see no reason why you weren't able to heal a barb in abaddon, since almost any class (except squishy casters - even though I've seen some of the mdo it as well) can tank it. A lot here depends on the healer. Not hinting you're bad or anything, but perhaps you missed a stream of rejuv or two or sage vanguard (i duno your culti just giving examples) if you have one; instead of just spamming IH as most clerics do, or haven't stacked enough of it, or not purified in time.

Also a lot depends on what lvl barbs you are running with, since most of the int starts +99/100 & you're 92; or maybe you just squading with fails... who knows.

I was trying to keep the BM alive, who had taken agro (and claimed to be our tank) and splitting IHs between a Barb and BM is aggravating. I don't like to use Stream as it takes too long to channel. If I really need the time to save their life I put the wings on them and just keep using IH. I just don't understand how a barb with even 20k HP can't take the aoe from a boss well. It dropped 1/6 to 1/5 of his health every hit.

_blood_rain - Sanctuary

Wushi I think you might just be getting a little too threatened by change.
But let me tell you where the sage barbs went....demon.
Many top barbs on my server that were sage went demon. Why? well The issue at endgame with barbs seems to be holding aggro. I know some demon barbs who steal aggro from sage barbs with regular hits(AXES not fists). At that level in the game is it necessary to just stack the defence on top of all that barb hp (talking about pure hp build) by going sage? Most have found the answer to be simply, "no its not." How necesary is that extra defence and hp when dd classes can tank the same boss and make the kill go faster? Part of it is imbalance in the game, and thats what happened to our sage barbs.
One thing that bothers me is how you dis the demon barbs. LOL go tell Herojet the demon claw barb who can solo ancient evil in 2-3 that demon barbs suck. Or go tell that to Wolfgore, or many of the other barbs who are demon and in demand because they are good at what they do, they dont have to wait for the weekend tw to pull catas like sage pure hp built barbs...because they adapted. Yes I can understand why you'd miss the sage barbs.and its natural to be threatened by change. I'm not saying sage barbs suck, or that demon is superior to sage, but sage+ pure hp build is just not what ppl need end game for the most part.

Sorry to say but above all else you just sound bitter. With no real foundation in your argument. I could be wrong but thats what im getting from your post.

WnbTank - Archosaur

LongWushi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Thank you for explaining, but I had taken your former statement as an attack on my argument. That is why I said prove it. As to your question I have a L100 barb on my side as well. Or did you discount Dark because he is my friend? And the other barbs are just a broken record of things I already know. Barbs cannot compete with the aps **** going on. It does not change the fact that I have not seen one good d. barb and that the barb class is a specifically tanking class, which they should be allowed to do. That was iterated to me very well on all of my characters. Barbs tank and DDs have to moderate their damage to not take agro and go SPLAT! I just want barbs back where they belong. Having a Sin or a BM or a fail d. barb attempt tanking and splatter and then ask why the died...? It gives me a headache. I have come across a few BMs and Sins who could pull it off well without going to the brink of death. I have yet to see a d. barb do it, which is why Steel and I have a date for a run in a dungeon.



For this I can understand the whole kill faster part, but I do not get taken into these dungeons yet. I am unfamiliar with them and because I know they are difficult I avoid volunteering for them. I will wait until I am sure I can handle them better and then I will go and learn how it is done.

When it comes to archosaur, I have done things with my badly geared demon barb, like tanking wurlord w/o charm & cleric. Well my aggro ability is likely best on server, discounting the few claw barbs so far, we got what 2-3 on 10x, I might be the next. Getting 2.5+ aps is not that expensive, I doubt any sage hold aggro from that(talking `bout my server), I can, to some extent. I got 60 base dex, I got 21% constant crit rate on tiggy, I deal full dmg there. That crit helps me keeping aggro, not some bif adventage but adventage neverthless.

Anywhere pulling is needed, demon sunder(100% crit to next 5s, sunder itself included) just rocks, sunder + surf = over 50k dmg to all mobs, easily, a lot more if I want to arma like I use to do in delta. That is huge PvE adventage to demon cause really, keeping aggro means DDs live. Roar alone wont keep aggro, if you think so, you are sadly mistaken. If DDs can dish out anything they want to and not take aggro, as long as barb lives, there is no argument which path is better on even more traditional barb build. That is talking about delta, which in my eyes is the only "hard" instance left, well granted snakefist is a bi.tch, still even my low gear can live him would some furry *** forget to take the pill quest =/.

When we get past ~15k marker, extra hp is irrelevant PvE wise, it only looks cute and well, it would help with arma, that`s about it. There is no real adventages on sage `cept pulling cata on TWs, everywhere else demons with their ability to hold aggro better are better bet for tanks. 45min FC with pre89 barb? Either you are lying or barb wasnt tanking or barb had some +10 wep/something. With the dmg reduction etc, lvl 10 fr just isn`t enough to hold aggro on 45min FCs, well if we are talking about full, not till heads as that might be possible if a stretch.

Ps. To the queston, sage barbs rerolled/hide till it`s time to pull catas, not really needed for anything else. Oh why hide? Ppl pm and bug em for buffs, that`s why.

Freizer - Lost City

Xnastyx - Lost City wrote: »

Well your only lvl 92, so maybe u just cant heal high enough to keep them alive?Also, it takes a while for demon barbs to develop, there skills cost money <_<. While sage barbs have the majority of everything thats good for them right off the bat i.e sage tiger form. Demon is and always will be a more harder road to go for barbs, (but way more rewarding). I see sage as the cheap way out.

If you can't tank mostly everything with a 92 cleric, I pitty you b:surrender
As a 96 sage barb I can do 2-3 with a wizard (up to the last boss) and various other things with low level clerics. If you can't well.>i think you're loosing sight of your class.


Also, sage barbs are the more expensive option of the two, especially on lost city, that "sage tiger form" runs about 1mil to your demon form which you can get about for 200-500k. That is because we are 'rare" on the server as apposed to the hoards of demon barbs.

Malord - Heavens Tear

I prefer sage barbs for tanking or BMs barb in humna form imo are squishy as ***. b:surrender

I prefer sage to tank caus ewhen the cleric/clerics suck and die and i end up solo healing the Barb i dont have to worry about how fast their hp drops

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

I think the argument is in what a "tank" really is?

Is it someone who can survive massive amounts of damage to make healing them easier?

Or is it the person who can hold aggro while still surviving?

Ideally, barbs should be both. What we traded was that ideal for faster dieing boss. The character levels and gear has gotten to a point where any decent cleric should be able to heal almost any class through almost any boss (almost).

So, back to the question of "what is a tank?" I thought it was super cool to see a sage barb with 24k hp tanking in TT asking the cleric to DD instead and he'd just use his genie and self heal. One by one everyone in the squad stole aggro and the cleric spent most the time rezzing the squad. We then backed off, and had a super slow but safer run letting our barb tank.
On the other hand, demon barb's are given better skills for DDing, and can keep up with damage output of some players, but alot of them become DDers themself giving up their vitality points for more dex and strength (and fists). When they join a squad the blend in with the BM's and sins.

I would always pick the demon barb over the sage barb. He will try to do his job and hold aggro. If he can't, he at least has BKI'd the person who becomes the tank. Add on Titans, devour, and bloodpaint and the replacement tank should have no problems. Then DDers can do their job, and the cleric can do hers.

_blood_rain - Sanctuary

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

I think the argument is in what a "tank" really is?

Is it someone who can survive massive amounts of damage to make healing them easier?

Or is it the person who can hold aggro while still surviving?

Ideally, barbs should be both. What we traded was that ideal for faster dieing boss. The character levels and gear has gotten to a point where any decent cleric should be able to heal almost any class through almost any boss (almost).

So, back to the question of "what is a tank?" I thought it was super cool to see a sage barb with 24k hp tanking in TT asking the cleric to DD instead and he'd just use his genie and self heal. One by one everyone in the squad stole aggro and the cleric spent most the time rezzing the squad. We then backed off, and had a super slow but safer run letting our barb tank.
On the other hand, demon barb's are given better skills for DDing, and can keep up with damage output of some players, but alot of them become DDers themself giving up their vitality points for more dex and strength (and fists). When they join a squad the blend in with the BM's and sins.

I would always pick the demon barb over the sage barb. He will try to do his job and hold aggro. If he can't, he at least has BKI'd the person who becomes the tank. Add on Titans, devour, and bloodpaint and the replacement tank should have no problems. Then DDers can do their job, and the cleric can do hers.

well said, well said.

but i have met some dd built sage barbs that hold their own very well wouldnt quite say I'd always pick the demon barb.

Surely tho I'd be more inclined to pick the barb who picked which path to go(demon or sage) based on what would complement his or her own build, one who did their research before making that choice; rather than one of the many barbs who just went pure tank build+sage because it was the popular thing to do.

Vivetus - Sanctuary

as previously stated the sage barbs have gone demon and well i personally believe that the ability one has does not lie in their culti but rather their skill as a player,

I have met some amazing sage barbs, and some amazing demons, but in the end there will always be bad apples on both sides. Judging by the join date of the OP they werent around when barbs with 9k hp at level 95+ were regarded as gods (at least on sanctuary) and well, by the looks of it clerics are reluctant to adapt to the new conditions set by the playerbase. The only clerics that are really complaining are those who have been spoiled by barbs tanking, this is not a cheapshot at the OP, simply an observation.

I personally being an archer with only 6k hp manage to survive on most bosses on my own, granted no clerics ever heal DD's. Those betching about wanting an efficient tank, seem to be blinded by the fact that survival is no longer an issue, and that in order to be efficient one must be fast.

One of the greatest barbs i know happens to be both demon, and a fist build.

He did this to be efficient, to be the best he could be simply to help squads, and in order to get into squads.

To the OP: before you let your personal preferences cause ignorance, consider what is best for the squad.


If you havent noticed, clerics are little by little also disappearing, simply because those "squishy DD's" that were neglected before have now found other means to care for themselves

Anyways.... /archerrant

Tawarwaith - Sanctuary

I quit playing barb at lvl100 simply cause sage barbs are just buff-goons, and only tank a few bosses (well snakefist is pretty much the only one, and more and more bms can tank that one too). There is no fun at being a barb when you can't hold aggro, especially when the ones taking aggro can also tank the boss. I never thought that barb class should be the only class capable of tanking, but if ppl prefer to have a bm/sin tank when there is a barb in squad, the class is just obsolete. Most barbs now seem to go fist to play their class, which is sad imo. Fists are a bm weapon, if barbs try to become some fluffy-bm, again, class is obsolete. I refuse to go fist on any class other then bm, so well just quit barb.

@ OP : I think everyone who plays pretty much knows by now that besides buffs, barbs are pretty pointless except some rare occasions, therefor there end up being less barbs in the game over-all. Believe me, at lvl100 if you're a sage barb, nobody will think of inviting you to anything besides bh-metal and rb. Sometimes if they have a spot left to fill, but they see you more as a burden. I rerolled a sin to actually tank again... (My barb has TT99 armor and weapon, with some +10 vit stones, pretty much all skills sage lvl, including aggro skills and buffs, still I can't hold aggro, and barely got any invites other then metal and rb. Go figure why there are no barbs around anymore)

Redmenace - Heavens Tear

Demon Barb =/= Fist Barb

Just because all your interactions with Demon barbs have been BM/Sin wannabes, doesn't mean that all Demon Barbs are that way.

I went demon, but because I wanted to hold aggro. I do full damage in cat form, and with a set of GX's and a near full set of demon skills I can keep aggro from most anything <+10 (rank weps and 5.0 sin's are a lost cause with current barb skills).

You can continue to blame the barbs for the lack of skills PWI gave us, but that doesn't make it true. I wanted to do more than pull cat, so I went demon.

But this has been an informative thread. I'm sure plenty of barbs reading this thread are making note of your name.

Red

Tawarwaith - Sanctuary

Redmenace - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Demon Barb =/= Fist Barb

I never said they were, and don't know why you got that feeling. However I never met a kitty barb (sage or demon) that is still able to hold aggro with the aggro fleshream. And that is very sad imo. Sorry if you think I compare demon with fist-barb. I just don't really know how demon barb does at 100+ cause I'm sage, but from what I hear it's pretty much the same : obsolete.

On sanctuary, most of the lvl100+ barbs seem to restat to a fist-build. I hate fist-barbs, but that is just a personal opinion. Actually I think it's sad that pretty much any class is using fists instead of their class' weaps, but that is another topic. Seems kitties only tank a few things in end-game, wether they are demon or sage.

On a side note, let ppl note my name, cause I don't play barb anymore. Boring to play a tank that can't tank. I can't say for demon, but sage barb is dead end-game.

_blood_rain - Sanctuary

Tawarwaith - Sanctuary wrote: »

I never said they were, and don't know why you got that feeling. However I never met a kitty barb (sage or demon) that is still able to hold aggro with the aggro fleshream. And that is very sad imo. Sorry if you think I compare demon with fist-barb. I just don't really know how demon barb does at 100+ cause I'm sage, but from what I hear it's pretty much the same : obsolete.

On sanctuary, most of the lvl100+ barbs seem to restat to a fist-build. I hate fist-barbs, but that is just a personal opinion. Actually I think it's sad that pretty much any class is using fists instead of their class' weaps, but that is another topic. Seems kitties only tank a few things in end-game, wether they are demon or sage.

On a side note, let ppl note my name, cause I don't play barb anymore. Boring to play a tank that can't tank. I can't say for demon, but sage barb is dead end-game.

Why would you hate fist barbs?
Pwi has been very imbalanced by how OP that high aps is and a barb who goes fist is simply adapting.
Yea some just suck as players and fail wether fist or not, but i have seen a LOT of pro *** claw barbs, I wouldnt call them obsolete endgame.

As an archer, I do plan to restat for claws. I agree with you it is sad that i have to change to a weapon my class wasnt quite intended to use just to compete with other dds cuz these days all you see in wc is " SQUAD LFS DDS 5APS 10 SECOND FCC/NIRVANA/WHATEVER HURRDURR" when barbs/ archers move to claws to be able to get squads we are just adaptingb:surrender Personally I'd say were lucky we can at least make the switch unlike some magic classes.
The saddest thing is that not only is something as noob as just spark+regular hits the most efficient thing in PVE, its also what you pretty much need to farm some bosses in the TT that the GMs so thoughtfully decided to make hard as **** to kill. b-.-d thumbs up for them.

Tawarwaith - Sanctuary

_blood_rain - Sanctuary wrote: »

I agree with you it is sad that i have to change to a weapon my class wasnt quite intended to use just to compete with other dds cuz these days all you see in wc is " SQUAD LFS DDS 5APS 10 SECOND FCC/NIRVANA/WHATEVER HURRDURR" when barbs/ archers move to claws to be able to get squads we are just adaptingb:surrender Personally I'd say were lucky we can at least make the switch unlike some magic classes.

There are several reasons why I don't like fist-barbs, but that is mainly my personal opinion. I don't think a fist barb would outdamage a fist bm or a sin with equal gear, so would it make a barb a tank again if they change? Also, unlike a bm or sin, a fist-barb has to change weapon to use any skill (like an aoe). This got my cleric killed several times. But you're right, fist-barb doesn't mean fail, just I will never become one.

Changing my class in a semi-bm just to compete with other dd is something I won't do. There is another way to adapt : Reroll a bm or sin. Btw, magic classes can do that too :P and it will be Perfect Fist World. But most psys and wizzies I know make an alt for farming, i.e. keep magic just for TW and never play it, or reroll a cleric ... Everyone is adapting to fists in a way, actually really sad, but kinda funny when you look at fist-threads from 2 years ago :P

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Tawarwaith - Sanctuary wrote: »

There are several reasons why I don't like fist-barbs, but that is mainly my personal opinion. I don't think a fist barb would outdamage a fist bm or a sin with equal gear, so would it make a barb a tank again if they change? Also, unlike a bm or sin, a fist-barb has to change weapon to use any skill (like an aoe). This got my cleric killed several times. But you're right, fist-barb doesn't mean fail, just I will never become one.

Changing my class in a semi-bm just to compete with other dd is something I won't do. There is another way to adapt : Reroll a bm or sin. Btw, magic classes can do that too :P and it will be Perfect Fist World. But most psys and wizzies I know make an alt for farming, i.e. keep magic just for TW and never play it, or reroll a cleric ... Everyone is adapting to fists in a way, actually really sad, but kinda funny when you look at fist-threads from 2 years ago :P

There has been alot of discussions on does a fist barb out dd a fist bm with equal gear and both buffed with Strength of Titans. They're very close because Poison Fang makes up the difference of Fist Mastery. I think BM takes it when channel canceling DBB but not alot of fist BMs do more than auto attack. A single refine level on the weapon can make the difference between who out DDs who between the fist bm and fist barb... Of course Sin still blows both of them out of the water. Point is you can tie for second highest DD in the game.

I will be going fist at 99 for a few reasons. First, I will have my BMs gear, so I will have the TT99 refines to compensate for loss of vitality and still be able to tank. Currently I am a level 93 dmg build with about 12.5k hp and I can do pulls and tank things with ease barbs with 16k+ hp can't do. Alot about surviving is in the skill, not in the hp numbers. Just ask BMs who put everything towards DD and pull aggro and tank with 5k hp. Fists BM's with base 3 vit have had to learn to survive and still do the jobs of old axe BMs that had 100+ vit.

Barbs complain they are no longer useful except as a buff machine, but a buff machine that can DD like a fist bm is very useful. Even if you aren't pulling aggro off a BM you are killing bosses quicker so tanking isn't as deadly. And if they really wanted you to tank they'd amp your sparks.

Don't want to be a bm? Weapon change and tiger form are both instant skills, you just need to be coordinated (and deal with a slight videocard lag) to pull them off when the situation calls for it.

My point is at least fists give you the option to be more than a buff machine, while still retaining all the versatility of the barb build by switching to axes.

Tawarwaith - Sanctuary

@Sakubatou : I think we're drifting of the original question. I agree with pretty much all you say, but that also brings me to the conclusion that sage axe/hammer barbs (with old-fashion vit build like my barb) are obsolete. I know from personal experience, with TT99 armor, TT99 polehammer, gold fcc belt, TT90 helmet all +5 or so (maybe not amazing, but I would say pretty good gear) my barb is just plain useless. Ofc, 2 options : going fist or reroll bm/sin. For several reasons I don't want to become a fist-barb, but it's not really the topic of this thread, and just personal anyway. Again, you're totally right (however I think that the average gear being way better then before also helps the 3vit bms survive the old axe bms job), I just don't like that play-style.

Baalbak - Dreamweaver

LongWushi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Demon build barbs will not run rebirth well if they cannot survive the Lure. Demon build barbs will not run FF well if they cannot survive the Lure. Maybe a BM could take their place there, but I would feel safer with a real tiger. Demon barbs are a desperate attempt to turn this class into a DD and it's not working, not in my opinion.

Where did you go? Will you come back? There are some of us who miss you.

With love from a real cleric who misses real barbs.

in my opinion, sage path for barb is essentially dead now save for being a catapuller. but even that can be impossible for a sage barb due to -int, jones blessings, rank gear etc. unless the barbs pocket runs deep. If the barb's pocket runs deep, then even a demon path barb can do it.

and FYI I'm demon build with just over 15k HP in tiger form (yeah kinda low, but my gears are only +4 at the moment). I've tanked a full delta on the equivalent of a silver HP charm, which actually died at the very last wave - which I finished out tanking (obviously) uncharmed. I run wave 5 deltas uncharmed. I run FC uncharmed. Ability to survive as a barb isnt necessarily related to sage/demon but rather knowing how to play the class.

oh.. and I love killing interval builds in TW with demon roar.b:laugh

LongWushi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

If you would like to prove that not all of you fail hardcore I will certainly run a dungeon with you sometime. Which means you must tank and keep agro (or at least hold it 85% of the time). This is what I expect of barbs, even demon ones.

feel free to roll on dreamweaver

but as I'm sure you're already aware of, ream - even sage or demon version - will NOT hold aggro against DD's that have -int builds. They don't even have to spark in order to steal aggro. simply attacking at 3.33 will take aggro from a barb sitting in tiger form reaming. the upside is that demon barbs in tiger form do a bit more damage, and ream cools down faster, so if your DD's aren't insane DPS'ers the demon barb is gonna hold aggro better than the sage one will. Its only logical.

any rate, I tank Abba and SoT for my faction and I don't die >.>