Wizard dmg sucks vs Psychic dmg?
Comments
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Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »Oh come on that's your only argument... people complain of balance because they either want balance in the game (not to win...) or because they care about their class. For many (non-childish) people the point in a game is not to pwn others with whatever means, you know.
One good thing we got against a psychic, distance shrink. If you got out of genies and tricks and chi, which you WILL as a mage (cause we tend to suck, not sure about psychics but they seem to be susceptible to same problem too) you can just run away from them until at least some of your cooldowns recover. Or whatever.
oO I remember disagreed with you back in the day but now you just told exactly my thoughts (and haven't changed much tbh).
yes it is my only argument
im tired of this ****
its like
BECAUSE ITS TOO HARD, WE ARENT GOING TO TRY!
I remember when sins first came out
yes they are hard to fight, but it takes a lot of timing and effort to win.
I fought sins with much better gear than me and lived because you just gotta get lucky with the timing and **** them up.
Psychics are the least to complain about
they have like 6 skills that hit like a wiz.
their first 2 vs pyrogram/gush
their 39 skills vs stone rain
their 79 skills vs sandstorm
their 100 skills vs BT
look at that
after the beginning
they need their 39 skill level 10 to = stone rain(our level 6 skill) at level 10
they need 79 skill to reach 39
100 skill to reach 59
the most i ever been hit by a psychic was a 3.2k crit which is nothing(unless you have 3k Hp at level 100, all jokes aside). If you come prepared, most of the things people complain about are trivial.
Being a wiz means you are prepared to spend a lot. I've spent quite a bit of coins getting my wiz to the point it is now and everyone else wants to give up because of something that happened, AT THE POINT A WIZARD IS DISADVANTAGED you cant compare wiz to other classes until at least 90+
my rant is over with
sidenote: Borsuc, i first seen you on the forums as a high 6x/low 7x and seen you go all the way to 101. Yes, you do drive me crazy sometimes, but you are a smart person. Im sure you can see what I'm saying.Sins are Scissors. Psychics are Rocks.
Archers, Venos, Barbs, Wizards, BMs, Mystics, Seekers are Paper.
...and Clerics are Mushrooms.
Paper beats Rock. Scissors beats Paper. Scissors also happens to beat Rock...until Rock gets 50k+ soulforce at which point Rock becomes an unstoppable killing machine that beats Paper... and would beat Scissors but it can't find Scissors, because Scissors are invisible.
So Scissors beat Paper and avoids Rock, and that is called BALANCE. -cheze0 -
Well damage-wise you are definitely right, but the lvl79 skill (Crystal Light) channels in 1 second. It slows down by 80% making me compare it with Glacial Snare instead. And it only does like 4k less damage (PvE wise) irrespective of weapon (compared against lvl11 Glacial Snare damage).
And don't forget their black voodoo. Since this thread is about damage, not survivability. :P0 -
Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »Well damage-wise you are definitely right, but the lvl79 skill (Crystal Light) channels in 1 second. It slows down by 80% making me compare it with Glacial Snare instead. And it only does like 4k less damage (PvE wise) irrespective of weapon (compared against lvl11 Glacial Snare damage).
And don't forget their black voodoo. Since this thread is about damage, not survivability. :P
black voodoo = frenzy b:surrender
frenzy gives me like....2kish damage or so
btw
i got sage BT so i can do that triple BT/BIDS thing
Sins are Scissors. Psychics are Rocks.
Archers, Venos, Barbs, Wizards, BMs, Mystics, Seekers are Paper.
...and Clerics are Mushrooms.
Paper beats Rock. Scissors beats Paper. Scissors also happens to beat Rock...until Rock gets 50k+ soulforce at which point Rock becomes an unstoppable killing machine that beats Paper... and would beat Scissors but it can't find Scissors, because Scissors are invisible.
So Scissors beat Paper and avoids Rock, and that is called BALANCE. -cheze0 -
even worse it has aoe effect like will of phoenix = hits targets in a row + higher range than 28.5mBorsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »Well damage-wise you are definitely right, but the lvl79 skill (Crystal Light) channels in 1 second. It slows down by 80% making me compare it with Glacial Snare instead. And it only does like 4k less damage (PvE wise) irrespective of weapon (compared against lvl11 Glacial Snare damage).
And don't forget their black voodoo. Since this thread is about damage, not survivability. :P
@mizuoni:
i know sage bids is awesome but here again you talk about a 2spark nuke of the wiz i was talking about the normals spells mainly because in my opinion it is still unfair that wiz has longer chan + lower dmg/hit. Isnt it the same idea behind channeling like with weapon choice of a bm? weapons that hit harder have lower hitrate while fists with high hit rate got lower dmg/hit. As a wiz 1 hit of my gush should make more dmg than 1 hit of the psychics aqua spam attack. But i realized that this doesnt work and if you look at the table of magicsaber again you will see it not only not works for gush but for most of the wiz attacks compared with equivalent psychic skill
greetz harm0wnie0 -
HarmOwnie - Dreamweaver wrote: »even worse it has aoe effect like will of phoenix = hits targets in a row + higher range than 28.5m
@mizuoni:
i know sage bids is awesome but here again you talk about a 2spark nuke of the wiz i was talking about the normals spells mainly because in my opinion it is still unfair that wiz has longer chan + lower dmg/hit. Isnt it the same idea behind channeling like with weapon choice of a bm? weapons that hit harder have lower hitrate while fists with high hit rate got lower dmg/hit. As a wiz 1 hit of my gush should make more dmg than 1 hit of the psychics aqua spam attack. But i realized that this doesnt work and if you look at the table of magicsaber again you will see it not only not works for gush but for most of the wiz attacks compared with equivalent psychic skill
greetz harm0wnie
you are at the point
where you are not at your best
sakymuni's light sucks as a damage weapon
your psychic friend is probably using the 74 mold with 54 mag atk x2 and 15 vit
when you reach 100 and get endgame stuff, its way different.
a wizard speciality is spark skills, thats our jobs. If we had the channeling of a psychic, do you know how OP we would be.Sins are Scissors. Psychics are Rocks.
Archers, Venos, Barbs, Wizards, BMs, Mystics, Seekers are Paper.
...and Clerics are Mushrooms.
Paper beats Rock. Scissors beats Paper. Scissors also happens to beat Rock...until Rock gets 50k+ soulforce at which point Rock becomes an unstoppable killing machine that beats Paper... and would beat Scissors but it can't find Scissors, because Scissors are invisible.
So Scissors beat Paper and avoids Rock, and that is called BALANCE. -cheze0 -
Mizuoni - Dreamweaver wrote: »If we had the channeling of a psychic, do you know how OP we would be.[/COLOR]
See? Physic has exactly what you said. He has lower channeling and he hit comparable strong maybe even stronger. So logic conclusion is, they are OP.b:laugh[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »Oh come on that's your only argument... people complain of balance because they either want balance in the game (not to win...) or because they care about their class. For many (non-childish) people the point in a game is not to pwn others with whatever means, you know.
One good thing we got against a psychic, distance shrink. If you got out of genies and tricks and chi, which you WILL as a mage (cause we tend to suck, ...
I remember when I annoyed a psychic with my wizard (I dared to harvest the herbs that he had been farming), back when my wizard was level 89. He asked me to go away. I did not want to. He tried to kill me. So I killed him. So he called in a wizard friend of his. So i killed both of them (I did this one by one -- they did not manage to coordinate their attacks properly). They were both in their mid 90s and were from a faction that owned a good chunk of the map that required good gear before you were allowed in. I was alone.
So um... i agreee with you: wizards tend to suck.
And, yes, I used distance shrink several times during those battles.0 -
LOL weird thing is I don't find that hard to believe at all. b:victory0
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i get almost the same damage from a +12 r8 psy as a +12 r8 wiz just faster. the fact that i get more messages that ive been killed by the psy more that a wiz is sad0
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that's exactly the point i wouldnt have a prob with the psy faster channeling but the dmg/hit should be higher which also seems not to be the case. I guess the main problem is the stacking effect of black voodooi get almost the same damage from a +12 r8 psy as a +12 r8 wiz just faster. the fact that i get more messages that ive been killed by the psy more that a wiz is sad
sage black voodoo
Increases your Attack Level by 22.
Reduces your Defense Level by 11.
Lasts 15 minutes.
Overwrites White Voodoo.
Attack Level is increased by an additional 3.
black voodoo stacks with jones blessing or other attackblessings used so the dmg difference would be even higher whereas if the player uses a def blessing he can limit the negative effect from black voodoo from -11 to -3 def level.
:-/0 -
HarmOwnie - Dreamweaver wrote: »I guess the main problem is the stacking effect of black voodoo
...
Increases your Attack Level by 22....
black voodoo stacks with jones blessing or other attackblessings used so the dmg difference would be even higher...
And black voodoo and jones blessing stacks with frenzy
And earth vector stuns for six seconds (AoE) with 28.5 m range for the sages and demons and 1 second casting time (and only one spark). If a psychic stuns you, your survival possibilities become rather... limited...0 -
And black voodoo and jones blessing stacks with frenzy
And earth vector stuns for six seconds (AoE) with 28.5 m range for the sages and demons and 1 second casting time (and only one spark). If a psychic stuns you, your survival possibilities become rather... limited...
Mountain's Seize has possibility to stun too (AOE).
Also from Pandora's PVP Wizard Guide:Force of Will can buy you a few seconds to get another Sandstorm off.
We (Wizards) have good spells.
But some of these spells have big channeling time and low damage output in comarison with Psychic's spells (see my first post at first page of this thread).[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Magicsaber - Dreamweaver wrote: »Mountain's Seize has possibility to stun too (AOE).
Also from Pandora's PVP Wizard Guide:
We (Wizards) have good spells.
But some of these spells have big channeling time and low damage output in comarison with Psychic's spells (see my first post at first page of this thread).
the problem here is mountain seize has 5s channeling and requires 2 sparks so unless you cast it in a sutra ( your entire chi) you wont be able to use it as a stun still
force of will got only 5s of seal when maxed whereas psychics stun start with 8 s + the cooldown of fow is higher so where is the point?0 -
HarmOwnie - Dreamweaver wrote: »the problem here is mountain seize has 5s channeling and requires 2 sparks so unless you cast it in a sutra ( your entire chi) you wont be able to use it as a stun still
force of will got only 5s of seal when maxed whereas psychics stun start with 8 s + the cooldown of fow is higher so where is the point?
If developers will be able to reduce channel time at least for Wizard's spells, Wizards will get greater damage output (than now) to be with same dps as Phychics.
But I think, this will be not done.
They did greater duration for black voodoo ("White and Black Voodoo have had their duration changed from 60 to 900 seconds"), that caused disadvantage of Wizard class and changed dps of Psychics by 20% (although they had greater dps before this), so I wander if they will do same improvement for Wizards.
And really, this must be written at the suggestions section of pwi forum, to be seen at least for moderators of this forum as propostion for restoration of balance between classes.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Magicsaber - Dreamweaver wrote: »If developers will be able to reduce channel time at least for Wizard's spells, Wizards will get greater damage output (than now) to be with same dps as Phychics.
But I think, this will be not done.
They did greater duration for black voodoo ("White and Black Voodoo have had their duration changed from 60 to 900 seconds"), that caused disadvantage of Wizard class and changed dps of Psychics by 20% (although they had greater dps before this), so I wander if they will do same improvement for Wizards.
And really, this must be written at the suggestions section of pwi forum, to be seen at least for moderators of this forum as propostion for restoration of balance between classes.
a psychic friend of mine ( who has also a 90+ wiz) told me that a nerf in terms of dmg would make lvling for psychics hard in the low lvls since they dont got knockback or distance shrink. But if you ask me a reduction of the dmg for spamable skills would be enough. I'll write a topic about the problem in the suggestion forum maybe there will be a response.0 -
maybe not distance shrink, but psychic do have a knockback skill and they have it more early than mage b:avoidpsychics [[...] in the low lvls since they dont got knockback or distance shrink[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
HarmOwnie - Dreamweaver wrote: »a psychic friend of mine ( who has also a 90+ wiz) told me that a nerf in terms of dmg would make lvling for psychics hard in the low lvls since they dont got knockback or distance shrink. But if you ask me a reduction of the dmg for spamable skills would be enough. I'll write a topic about the problem in the suggestion forum maybe there will be a response.
Does your friend not have Landslide? o_O Level 19 skill (20 levels earlier than the wizard's knockback)
I'mma put it this way, my psy used the same macro from levels 20-39 and did just fine.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
HarmOwnie - Dreamweaver wrote: »a psychic friend of mine ( who has also a 90+ wiz) told me that a nerf in terms of dmg would make lvling for psychics hard in the low lvls since they dont got knockback or distance shrink. But if you ask me a reduction of the dmg for spamable skills would be enough. I'll write a topic about the problem in the suggestion forum maybe there will be a response.
huh? they get a knockback like 10 lvls before a wizard does.0 -
Id like to see our skills modified to accomadate slightly higher damage.
Wep modifiers should Increase by 10-30% and skill damage should be Increased too.
Eg: gush lvl 10 =1376.2 + 100% wep + base magic
Should be like 1550 + 120% wep + base magic.
How about a self/ party buff to decrease casting times. Or mods on weps.
Or an attribute modification where 10-20 magic = -6-10% cast. similar to the way dex increases crit.Koiz - omfg my life is now complete
Shevanel - haha oh?
~~~
Koiz - i took this massive dump
Koiz - while listening to im on a boat hahahah
Shevanel - hahahahaha
Shevanel - haha
Shevanel - Oh wow
Certain levels of Boredom..
ThaMessiah: I'd rather endlessly wack it till I shot a load that hits my ceiling than do a 3-20 -
HarmOwnie - Dreamweaver wrote: »black voodoo stacks with jones blessing or other attackblessings used so the dmg difference would be even higher whereas if the player uses a def blessing he can limit the negative effect from black voodoo from -11 to -3 def level.
:-/
no offence but this is kinda naive.
wizzies can get the same blessings therefore boosting their def/attack so the difference will always be 22/11 (or the sage/demon)
it's like saying: oooh the psy can get a +12 weapon so that would boost his dmg even more0 -
Shevanel - Sanctuary wrote: »Id like to see our skills modified to accomadate slightly higher damage.
Wep modifiers should Increase by 10-30% and skill damage should be Increased too.
Eg: gush lvl 10 =1376.2 + 100% wep + base magic
Should be like 1550 + 120% wep + base magic.
How about a self/ party buff to decrease casting times. Or mods on weps.
Or an attribute modification where 10-20 magic = -6-10% cast. similar to the way dex increases crit.
Party buffs, weapon mods and cast bonus due to int would benefit the whole magical classes.
Self buff... interesting if well implemented. 2 chi consumption and 600 seconds cooldown would be painful.
About skill mods, agree.
Anyway, i think PW is not interested in balancing classes. Hope I'm wrong.
Sorry by my english. =P0 -
Ok some time hast passed and im now 100% sure that my observation was right and psy does more dmg/hit than wiz
My psychic friend got the lvl 80 mold soulsphere and im wearing a lvl 79 glaive of divnity with 2 sockets. I compared the magic attack values of the 2 weapons and they are nearly identical. Both of us wear the attendance sheet rings so there is also no difference. We are both pure magic builds so dmg can be compared i think.
According to him psy spam skills with black voodoo do ~11k/hit non crit
my wizards gush/pyro does ~6-7k/hit non crit
Even more annoying to know this huge difference in dmg will be even larger because i got my masteries water fire earth lvl 10 but he hasnt maxed them yet. So in terms of dmgoutput my wizard disappoints me now even more than it was 10 lvls ago. Nevertheless i like to play my wiz and will go on playing it even if wiz seems to be one of the weakest classes in game dmgwise nowadays with 5aps bm/archers/sins and psychic around.
greetz harm0wnie0 -
What has it come to, that kings of PvP and gods of DMG - Wizards suck at dealing damage nowadays b:shocked0
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If i'm honest I don't think you should be comparing damage using a glaive... Glaives have a wide damage range compared to say swords or wands, maybe try with a sword/wand and compare damage then. Also try testing without black/white voodoo. I'm confused as to why your pyro/gush only deals around 6k at your level? I'm sure mine was higher than that..HarmOwnie - Dreamweaver wrote: »Ok some time hast passed and im now 100% sure that my observation was right and psy does more dmg/hit than wiz
My psychic friend got the lvl 80 mold soulsphere and im wearing a lvl 79 glaive of divnity with 2 sockets. I compared the magic attack values of the 2 weapons and they are nearly identical. Both of us wear the attendance sheet rings so there is also no difference. We are both pure magic builds so dmg can be compared i think.
According to him psy spam skills with black voodoo do ~11k/hit non crit
my wizards gush/pyro does ~6-7k/hit non crit
Even more annoying to know this huge difference in dmg will be even larger because i got my masteries water fire earth lvl 10 but he hasnt maxed them yet. So in terms of dmgoutput my wizard disappoints me now even more than it was 10 lvls ago. Nevertheless i like to play my wiz and will go on playing it even if wiz seems to be one of the weakest classes in game dmgwise nowadays with 5aps bm/archers/sins and psychic around.
greetz harm0wnie
I really don't think wiz are the weakest class in the game either, nothing gives me pleasure like dropping BT on an AoE in FF and seeing 55k on all mobs and the psy/sin are like b:shocked0 -
Helbear - Heavens Tear wrote: »...
I really don't think wiz are the weakest class in the game either, nothing gives me pleasure like dropping BT on an AoE in FF and seeing 55k on all mobs and the psy/sin are like b:shocked
There is DPS and DPH.Magicsaber - Dreamweaver wrote: »...
1) for psychic
Spell................Damage.....Damage per second
Aqua Impact......10092......5046
Spirit Blast.........10910......5455
Torrent..............14129......6422
Landslide............12810......6405
Aqua Cannon......12008......4003
Sand Trap..........15252......5084
Glacial Shards.....12780......4260
Sandburst Blast...13440......4480
Red Tide.............17196......5732
Earth Vector........12640......6320
Sandball Clash.....17295......4324
Sum..................148552....57531
Average.............13505.......5230
Soulburn.............270000....30000 (if physic had been hit twice per second)
2) for Wizard
Spell.............................Damage ..Damage per second
Pyrogram........................9935.......4319
Gush...............................9926.......4963
Stone Rain.....................11903.......3501
Crown of Flame..............10814.......5407
Hailstorm........................9354.......3118
Divine Pyrogram.............14033.......4678
Pitfall .............................11520.........5760
Dragon's Breath..............12550.......4183
Will of the Phoenix..........12521.......6260
Sandstorm.....................15586.......3896
Glacial Snare..................16296.......3790
Black Ice Dragon Strike....24178.......4317
Blade Tempest................16152.......2785
Mountain's Seize.............22680.......3544
Sum.............................197447......60522
Average.........................14103........4323
...
results are real and damage per second of psychic level 100 is 1,2 times more
Edit:
I just had seen that Psychic has
Aqua Spirit and Earthen Spirit skills (20% more for Psychic's Earth and Water skills ) + 20% or 0.2, so really
psychic level 100 has 1,4 times more powerful spells than Wizard.
Even if BT has double damage (physical and fire: 16152*2=32,304) and average dph of Wizard is more if Psychic not use Black Voodoo or has not Aqua Spirit and Earthen Spirit skills (as you see from above tables), dps is less.
More, spamable skills, not required chi are less powerful for Wizard.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
cash shop > psy and wizzie.
is not matter of who plays better lawl...is matter of who has the best gear = cs wins.0 -
Readen - Lost City wrote: »What has it come to, that kings of PvP and gods of DMG - Wizards suck at dealing damage nowadays b:shocked
the problem is that
a) physical attackers reach higher dmg when they use weapons in favour of a higher attack rate -->5APS (you can see the trend if you compare the amount of BMs choosing fists with the amount of sword BMs)
b) psychics skills are also a lot faster and have nearly the same dmg multipliers and values compared to wiz --> check magicsabers table
so over all you can say pwi provides players who choose to go for DPH instead of DPS with a disadvantage :-/
@magicsaber: not only the lower chi requirements chi building is also easier with more APS and yeah i still had your formulas in mind but i still was hoping for an error in the data
@helbear: the dmg was taken fighting in the same squad at the same boss and no there were no effects of HF or extrem poison or something else that could have caused the variation. The 6-7k dmg are calculated without undine so maybe that's the reason why the dmg you have in mind is higher. I doubt that with the difference from 11-7=4k comes from larger weapon range.
The reason why i didnt include undine in the calculation but black voodoo is that undine has to be recasted every 12 seconds leaving the wiz with some dmgless time for renewing the debuff and psychics benefit equally from debuff whereas blackvoodoo remains for minutes so it can be considered as permanent dmg boost like the wellspring quarf for wiz0 -
Shield - Raging Tide wrote: »cash shop > psy and wizzie.
is not matter of who plays better lawl...is matter of who has the best gear = cs wins.
Of course gear matters but every class has its characteristics. So before TB came out
wiz was highest DPH and the character for big hits. The thing is where is the sense in playing a class that has become obsolete for PvP and PvE. I mean i can understand why some squads prefer psychics with their aoes because they can spam them and do only slightly less dmg than a wiz + psychics have many debuffs skillsideeffects at their hand so it would be more than fair to make the wiz the hardest hitting char in the game again because thats the only thing wiz is good at0 -
/facepalmShield - Raging Tide wrote: »cash shop > psy and wizzie.
is not matter of who plays better lawl...is matter of who has the best gear = cs wins.
Not this **** again.
Ok Einstein, we're talking about CLASSES. Not PLAYERS. Get 2 players with equal gear, or heck, max their gear all you want. Pimp them out as you can. Then compare.
Also HarmOwnie, there's no way only black voodoo can make the psy do 57% more damage, because the difference between 11k and 7k is around 57%. Maybe he used Jones Blessing and you didn't?
Because Black Voodoo only adds 22 attack level (so ~22% more dmg).0 -
Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »/facepalm
Not this **** again.
Ok Einstein, we're talking about CLASSES. Not PLAYERS. Get 2 players with equal gear, or heck, max their gear all you want. Pimp them out as you can. Then compare.
Also HarmOwnie, there's no way only black voodoo can make the psy do 57% more damage, because the difference between 11k and 7k is around 57%. Maybe he used Jones Blessing and you didn't?
Because Black Voodoo only adds 22 attack level (so ~22% more dmg).
thats exactly the miracle i cant understand borsuc. For the blessing issue we both have the anniversary blessing atm. He explained that his dmg boost is a total of 70% with the 22% black voodoo which doesnt sound logical to me but the dmg he does is obvious. I dont think that he's telling me wrong figures because he doesnt have to show off with his char and he has a lvl 90+ wiz on Lost City as well but when we decided to start on DW with some other friends and me he chose a psy because he wanted something different. He told me that something is calculated seperatly thats why the 22% lead to that dramatic increase in dmg i'll ask him for details0
This discussion has been closed.
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