Question about HA/Arcane

If you do go heavy/arcane at a low level, I'd recommend searching out -req heavy armor; that makes it a lot easier to find the stat points you need.

i recommend just avoiding the build in its entirety. the only way it can remotely outdamage either of its casting cousins is via melee attacks with stacked - interval gear (which is expensive). quite frankly, if you wanted to build like that you would've been better off an assassin or blademaster. it isnt impossible to have ridiculous defense as an arcane, or to make full use of fox form as a light armor build (which would have plenty of crit and accuracy to back up the demon cultivation) and doesnt require the headache of finding +stat gear provide you cannot afford the elite anniversary pack gear.

the only thing this build ends up doing is stacking ridiculous amounts of physical defense, which isnt necessary after 10k where it experiences exponential decay in usefulness. *aka the more you get, the less useful it is*

try garnets in robes, or light armor + buffs. itll get you alot further.

As I know HA gives you more HP from refines than the other two armours. You already have an insane physical defence so you don't have to spend socket slots on garnets. You can get citrines instead and end up with higher HP than Arcanes and probably higher than LAs because some might want to add garnets to LA.

i compare all 3 on purpose, throw vit arcane into that loop, you still come out with 5k+ def without buffs, and easily have 5-6k hp with low refines. its cheaper, more effecient in terms of damage and healing, and can hold its own as one of the best pvp builds around.

The critical hits are nice but with the right equipment/ornaments you can get up to 10% easily with little Dex points. Dex doesn't benefit the Venomancer in this case. The Str you use for the HA build will give you higher physical attack.

what is the point of physical attack without accuracy? LA gets this + good crits ontop of it. a good LA build can have on upto amounts of 30+ % crit, which easily makes up for the less attack. turn this into casting, and it becomes an even greater power on terms for pve and pve.

Either way, fox damage is low and will be low since you have to use magic weapon. That if you compare it with other melee classes. I remember however that someone had done the maths (I think it was Solandri) and proved that fox dps at high levels surpasses the caster Venomancer (please correct me if i'm wrong) and ends up doing more damage?

as i said, only with stacked interval gear, works the same way with any class trying to melee instead of doing their intended purpose IE. claw archers.

all in all, i have an extreme disdain for HA/AR (we have arcane robes not armor lol) and will continue to dissuade new users to it as long as i breate air.

I skimmed over Avryll's posts and obviously that poster is not someone I would bother listening to. Listening to people pose hypothetical nonsense as the basis of it is rather silly. A good amount of HA/AA venos are on this forum so can give you actual worthwhile advice.

a majority of this forum is metagame when it comes to comparisons, which is purely hypothetical in nature. i gave my opinion on why i find it the least useful of the 3 builds, just because it is contrary to the topic at hand does not make it detrimental to the rest of the community. they are viable, well known facts, especially when it comes to damage, casting/healing, etc.. i will do everything i can to try and dissuade others from following this build, because it is nonsensical to the way venos are ment to be played.

if this was DnD where casters like clerics could wield heavy armor, shields, and maces etc, this would be another story. unfortunately it isnt.

Avryll - Sanctuary wrote: »

i recommend just avoiding the build in its entirety. the only way it can remotely outdamage either of its casting cousins is via melee attacks with stacked - interval gear (which is expensive). quite frankly, if you wanted to build like that you would've been better off an assassin or blademaster. it isnt impossible to have ridiculous defense as an arcane, or to make full use of fox form as a light armor build (which would have plenty of crit and accuracy to back up the demon cultivation) and doesnt require the headache of finding +stat gear provide you cannot afford the elite anniversary pack gear.

the only thing this build ends up doing is stacking ridiculous amounts of physical defense, which isnt necessary after 10k where it experiences exponential decay in usefulness. *aka the more you get, the less useful it is*

try garnets in robes, or light armor + buffs. itll get you alot further.

Actually, it's more of a survivability thing. Light armor in foxform is useable. I remember a veno did that at one point thought forgot her name. Obssesed and Rei did the HA/AA builds and they would better explain it than me, but here it goes. The build is to even out the defense so that melee monsters won't be so hard to come by if so pet happens to die along with still keeping a good magical defense. Magic attack is lower than arcane yet still effective as they balance their str points and mag points. It's a very expensive build though I wouldn't say trash the thing. You get the +stats and right gear and you won't be disappointed. They aren't melee peeps like I so you can't tell them to roll things that are completely off.

I have zero experience in PWI PvP so i kinda cant comment on the PvP thingy. I did duell an Archer and a BM but they werent realy trying. BM killed himself with his Cala Axes+4 i was perma stunned and casted like 1 thing in every of the 3 duells with him and the Archer was to lazy to run... :P

Yes at my level i feel like a pure mag or vit/mag Veno with as expensive gear as mine would probably outdamage me. Still i dont feel like i grind slow. I kill Huggy Hares almost as fast as my Archer 77 friend so i dont mind.
While fighting Bosses its at my current level not me who does the damage anyways. Its mainly my Pet while i concentrate on always haveing Amp up, giving Chi to the person in need as soon as its ready.
For this i have the personal feeling that i build Chi much faster while i melee.
Also i use Ironwood as benefical as possible and Befuddeling Mist from time to time, with a high eva tank i feel it actually is of use.
Also i watch the Sparks, if i see sparking DDs i use Extreme Poison. Sometimes i even have the spare time/sparks to join the sparking.
I have not too much experience with that but this is how it worked great for me so far.

I dont understand myself as the hottest/best/ultimate DD anyways. I understand myself as someone who helps those to enhance their damage even further.
If i was about numbers id roll a Sin or Wiz.

HA/AA is not pure melee. I prefer Fox but i also leveled a few of my nukes since this switch from caster to melee in whatever mood im in is what makes Veno my class of choice.
Besides that for my own understanding of my class and the way i want to play it neither haveing a maxed Ironwood nor some Nukeing options for the case i have to stay away at my level even if i have a Dark Wanderer with maxed Pierce is not an option...

Regarding the expensive gears. Yes its expensive but hell thats written all over every HA/AA Veno guide/advice/whatever: Its not cheap! I find it not realy annoying to surf the AH for good accesorries tho. I did that as LA already as a hobby.b:chuckle

Before someone says "but you cant wear HA and Magic Weapons of your level": Yes you can i wear Sakyamunis and TT70 HA (Armor since 72/73). I needed to get a lv2 Tome but already said: Its not cheap if you do it as fanatic as i do it. Other girls have their fashion i have my HA fetish.b:chuckle

Hm HP.. i feel like 38xx is just fine. Ya maybe casters one shot me but honestly how hard and slow can it be to click 4 items on my hotbar to suddenly stand there in full AA? XD
Point taken if i was on a PvP Sever and a Wiz/Psy/Cleric would sneak up on me yes.. i think he might be able to oneshot me but on my own level with the HP ammount i have i give myself atleast 2 spells.

I noticed that haveing 10k pdef or 13k is not that much of a difference but i wont say its neglectable. Again i dont have enough facts about that atm.

@Avryll: Why shouldnt melee Veno aim on -int? Almost all casters i saw/talked to aimed on -channel. Both is expensive and uuh... as far as i see it almost all who melee includeing BM and Sin, even Barbs, who are natural melees are useing -int later or aiming at it. Why wouldnt a melee Veno? Same with -channel, all Casters want it why shouldnt a casting Veno get it if he/she can/wants to afford it? I dont understand your point there im sorry b:surrender

Eh wall of text in, pretty sure of that, horrible english im sorry its late. Well i see if i posted nonsense tommorow after i slept.b:laugh

Avryll - Sanctuary wrote: »

its not that they shouldnt, its that thats the only way they will match a caster's damage or out damage it. but stacking -int on a veno is stupid, seeing as you can do the same on a BM/assassin/archer and have a far more beneficial, damaging character. veno doesnt benefit from a -int demon spark like they do, so what would be the point of melee at all? this is a class meant for magic, not to be another 5.0 cookie cutter of fistworld international.

The class isn't meant for melee? Then why the hell is there a fox tree? b:lipcurl

to me i allways thought HA/AA ment u use both armor such as this build http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=3e65d58468707edb
atleast that what my HA/AA veno would look like.

Don't listen to Avryll, he's over on the heavy-robe sticky thread saying how his build is cheaper and more effective when everything is full 4 socketed with garnets, including in gear that you cant even get from the packs anymore unless you buy a **** load of best luck tokens or farm your life away in unicorn forest and valley of the scarred. b:cute

Well, let's see.. fox form gives bonuses to accuracy and phys defense. What do you think that's for?

There's a specific passive called melee mastery. What do you think that's for?

There are other skills that do physical damage. What do you think that's for?

all for a failed attempt at making a battle mage. the whole fact they confined them to only magic weapons is that main inhibitor. they get horrible p.atk per refine, no interval bonus from either spark, and even with 2x misties, with TT90 req dex + sage FF you'll barely break 1500 acc. +100% accuracy of **** isnt worth ****. at best you'll be hitting like an 8x assassin.

on top of that, 3/6 of the melee skills require chi and hit for horrible damage. take it from a real melee veno named isala, old poster, quite prominent in the field of experimental classes. i quote "i never have a chance to spark, im using all my chi on fox moves." this is from a sage, the king of chi makers.

Certainly a veno doesn't need melee

thus they dont need str, nor HA. garnets in your arcane robes, or LA work just fine. there is no need to gimp your magic attack/mp/healing capabilities just for a tiny bit more defense, which offers only a tiny bit more % mitigation. you dont see wizards in HA do you? no, because it's stupid; and like the veno they have a defense buff to capitalize in while in robes.

play a veno nor what it's about.

its about support. i dont need to gimp my ability to damage and support just for a little bit more defense. we've been all about support pre phoenix TWs, we are support for 3-3 and nirvana, and we dont need HA to do any of this at all.

i certainly do not see you offering advice or constructive criticism, either do so, or put up and shut up.

Stacking -int on a veno is just as good as stacking chan gear on a veno.

wrong. with interval build up you can out damage your casting 2 fold... with fists + no skills whatsoever in fox form. then you would be another cookie cutter ****** like every other class built to fast results and not efficiency. the point is in order to even touch a caster's damage is with a large amount of interval, which is just another gimp on your veno.

you dont need -chan when you have skills that have little to no cast time.

you have no idea what i have and havent tried. i've recommended 3 other builds that get the job done just fine, and recommended he stayed away from the worst of 4 commonly accepted builds. that isnt 'do things my way logic' whatsoever. get off your soapbox and preach down to someone who gives a damn.

and btw, even with the extra damage, you still have **** accuracy, i calc'ed it honey.
takes an idiot to know an idiot, ijs.

veno expert tired of lurking here to end the debate!

lets take the most recent part and pick it apart to see whats going on here.

Using a magic weapon is not an inhibitor.

dude, dunno what planet you're from, but yes it is O_o;
-horrible p.atk per refine.
-the highest available p.atk magic weapon - pataka, slow as dirt
-the most remotely reasonable melee substitute - magic sword, they hit like lower level assassin weapons. kind of inferior to other DD classes, really |:

Please ignore this part too just like you did every single other iteration of physical skills, passives, and bonuses veno gets

uhwat? how was this ignored o-o. he said the dex was garbage. lets take a look at pwcalc ladies and gents. http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=31ae22397bfd081a 2x +50% acc rings, and sage fox, like he said, barely breaks 1500 acc. that is kinda crappy when you think about it. how are you supposed to hit anything like this?

Why is it a melee HA veno will outdmg a magic one on a single target?

the only way this is possible is if they have a decent stacked - interval rating. they dont out damage casters at all otherwise. some of them sparking pure mag **** hurt like hell, especially the sage ones. +900% m.atk boost + chi gain out the *** man.

Surely a wise veno will use both, but you're not preaching this. You're saying magic only, i.e. fail.

its extremely situational. theres only one major boss that's really wood immune, and mana drain is irrelevant with a cleric/sage sprint/spark. refill your mp super quick and easy, and get back on that casting horse. even as a pure mage/LA i wouldnt melee; we're not really made for it.

Sage venos, which get the best bonuses for melee (sage fox form, sage melee mastery), don't even use any chi for anything other than sparking when in fox form. You spark, you auto attack, that's it. Pretty similar to fist archers and BM's and sins. You've obviously never played a HA veno because you're clueless and keep posting hypothetical nonsense to people who actually have and play as a HA/AA veno, like yours truly.

since you seem to love using rhetorical questions as a debating technique (ie a logical fallacy) you pointed out that venos had other skills made for melee use. this was being addressed, and you cant call someone out for addressing your point and use it as if it was some flawed argument into cluelessness on how a class works.

but he is right, ****, ****ing melee skills on venos hit for **** damage, and that aint ever gunna change.

What physical attack bonuses do wizards get again?

(cough)frostblade(cough)

besides the point, i believe the point here was being made that they can capitalize on their defensive buff in robes. they don't need HA to achieve BM like defense.

There's no incentive to play a HA wizard.

then what would be the incentive of an HA veno? i mean, really if its just for the defense, robes really do get the job done just as well...

They are a true magic class that derives all their power from magic

i mean if that were the case, what would the point of an LA wizard be, or an LA psychic (dont laugh, ive seen these), if not other than for the defense. if they're meant for pure magic offense, i say what's the point.

Last I checked purge, amp, soul degen, lending hand, and other very useful veno skills

that entire last paragraph of his pointed out: VENOS ARE MADE FOR SUPPORT. you only supported his entire conclusion with this stupid section here lol.

which is why you conveniently ignored every single skill and passive that reflects veno's are also a melee class.

he didn't, he called them flawed and/or useless.

Have you ever played veno or did you just happen to stumble upon ecatomb, loading only half the veno skill trees, and think you have veno down? I doubt there's a single person who posts here that takes you seriously, and the only person you've convinced you know anything about a veno is yourself

he has plenty of legitamate points, which you are conveniently just responding to with just rhetorical questions, and logical fallacies.

point and case: HA/ARCANE ROBE if just not as effective as the other three builds in this one person's eyes, in which he argued quite logically. its pretty profound how stupid people get over someone having a different opinion, for ****s sake. grow up guys.

Your the one on a soap box. telling everyone you can to stay away from a build. Just because you dont like it, doesnt mean you have to tell everyone NOT to do it. (how many times do i have to say that.)

he is perfectly within his right to protest a build he dislikes, just like you sit and trashed LA/Vit arcane in another thread. LA/vit arcane are perfectly viable builds, who are you to insult em with ignorance.

Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary wrote: »

You're spitting out the same trash at the HA/AA build. I have a right to defend my logics.

A veno came on here and asked for an input about the build. And I would assume that input should come from a fellow HA/AA veno. NOT from a veno that dislikes the build.


They asked for advice. They didn't come here to be dissuaded.

Stop with your one-wayed nonsense. You can't always have it your way.

the dude should be informed of the cons, along with the pros. Op even said in one of his posts he'd like to know of the dangers of the build before attempting it as well. now he has a plenty valid option to look from both sides of the coin. if someone wants to recommend against it, thats their perogative, get off their case, ms. high and mighty.