Question about HA/Arcane

Desdi - Sanctuary

The OP also stated that "I don't need to know what "is the only and proper way to play venos." I love creativity in a game, I'm sorry but saying "you can't do this" doesn't cut it for me. " (directly copy&pasted from their post.)

If you watch PWI's class introduction videos you will see that the Venomancer class is presented as the Hybrid Mage. They were designed and meant to be able to deal both magical and physical damage.
Venomancers are not Damage Dealers therefore comparing to Damage Dealer classes is not exactly the right thing to do.
Venomancers are debuffers, not a very successful debuff class in my opinion (they could have added better skills), but still they are debuffers. Nobody wants the Venomancer in their squad for the damage, they want it for the skills' effects (unless the Venomancer is like +10 adove the mobs, she's not the DD...and rarely does a squad invite a Venomancer when they ask for DDs in chat). Venomancer's skill effects are based on the skills themselves and not the damage. Along with a nice set of debuffs on the pet (debuffs that are missing from the skill tree such as reduce physical attack or reduce magical defence).
Being a hybrid it's normal that they don't have high attack on both sides. If they did, that would be completely unfair towards the other classes. Imagine a Venomancer having the high magic attack of a Wizard and the high physical attack of the Blademaster....

Sure, you have every right to try and build your Venomancer with a high magic attack and all, but this doesn't mean they are supposed to be Damage Dealers.
Venomancers are hybrid, versatile and flexible. They can be played with different builds and still be effective. Any of the three builds, HA, LA and AA, can give them a good survivability. Any of the three builds give them the ability to use their debuffs, DoTs, Chi etc. etc. Any of the three builds give them the ability to lure/use pets. In conclusion, they fulfill their role in squads and therefore any of the three builds work. Of course, this doesn't mean that you should gimp your attack completely but it has already been stated that:
- Auto-attack melee in fox form surpasses the damage output of caster Venomancers at high levels
- Pure Vit build is same as HA build in terms of damage and both are still able to be effective in PvP/PvE
- Even with low accuracy fox Venomancers still rarely miss (theories doesn't always work in practice)

I don't care if you have a build preference and support it so much, however, you have said things about the class that are simply wrong. The latter is what bothers me because that will lead newcomers to confusions and misunderstanding the class. And please don't start the insults now... Ms_HopToIt is far from being "high and mighty". They have more experience than you according to their posts.

Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary

tearvalerin wrote: »

the dude should be informed of the cons, along with the pros. Op even said in one of his posts he'd like to know of the dangers of the build before attempting it as well. now he has a plenty valid option to look from both sides of the coin. if someone wants to recommend against it, thats their perogative, get off their case, ms. high and mighty.

cons doesnt mean insult the build. it means give facts. not illogical bullcrap.

i will do everything i can to try and dissuade others from following this build, because it is nonsensical to the way venos are ment to be played.

^ That isn't a con. that's an insult to the build.

OP even said this:

I already stated, I don't need to know what "is the only and proper way to play venos." I love creativity in a game, I'm sorry but saying "you can't do this" doesn't cut it for me.

Obviously OP didn't like Avryll's input and they definately arent going to listen to yours either.

You should get off your high horse, too. Give out advice to the veno's interested in the vit-arcane or LA build, but don't come here insulting the HA build just because you "dont like it". I don't try to persuade arcane venos to go heavy, it's their freaking choice. You or your friend aren't to say whether or not they can't.

Solandri - Heavens Tear

tearvalerin wrote: »

Using a magic weapon is not an inhibitor.

dude, dunno what planet you're from, but yes it is O_o;
-horrible p.atk per refine.

Actually, magic weapons get the most patk per refine of any melee weapon. The devs got lazy and instead of coding up a separate refine table for magic weapon patk, they just used the same refine table as matk. But weapon matk is typically much higher than weapon patk, to compensate for spells taking more time to cast than a typical single melee attack. So magic weapons matk refine is proportionately larger, causing them to get a disproportionately huge refine bonus to patk.

e.g. A +12 refine gives:
+787 patk - Nirvana daggers
+787 patk - Nirvana claws
+1050 patk - Nirvana axes
+1050 patk - Nirvana magic sword

Factoring in attack interval (with no interval gear), the +12 refine adds:
+875 patk/sec - Nirvana axes
+984 patk/sec - Nirvana daggers
+1124 patk/sec - Nirvana claws
+1313 patk/sec - Nirvana magic sword

-the highest available p.atk magic weapon - pataka, slow as dirt

High patk only really matters if you're using skills which do >100% weapon attack damage. Venos don't get any so you're not really losing anything by not using patakas. The exception used to be the Rank 8 pataka - that had such high patk it had more DPS than TT99 magic swords. But since the introduction of Nirvana weapons, there are better alternatives now.

-the most remotely reasonable melee substitute - magic sword, they hit like lower level assassin weapons. kind of inferior to other DD classes, really |:

Just to make this fair, say the daggers get one of the +130 max patk bonues.

G15 Nirvana magic sword +5: (665-982) + 160 = 983.5 avg patk
G15 Nirvana daggers +5: (685-1028) + 675 + 130/2 = 1041.5 avg patk

G15 Nirvana magic sword +8: 1187.5 avg patk
G15 Nirvana daggers +8: 1194.5 avg patk

G15 Nirvana magic sword +10:1447.5 avg patk
G15 Nirvana daggers +10: 1389.5 avg patk

G15 Nirvana magic sword +12: 1873.5 avg patk
G15 Nirvana daggers +12: 1708.5 avg patk

So as you can see, with typical endgame refines, the magic sword is actually as good as or better than daggers. Heavy foxes don't get as much stat bonus to damage due to having just minimum str (BMs have higher str, Assassins have higher dex). But the 150% or 200% melee mastery bonus (vs 75% or 90% for melee classes) pretty much cancels out that difference. Add in that heavy venos can attain the highest pdef of any class able to tank, and I think they're pretty solid.

The fox veno's two big weakness are:

• Lack of skills which do enough damage to make them worth using. But as you pointed out, we get some awesome debuffs which IMHO more than compensates. And at endgame, DPS comes from interval.
• Inability to attain more than 2.22 atk/sec due to lack of interval equipment and demon spark not giving an attack speedup.

uhwat? how was this ignored o-o. he said the dex was garbage. lets take a look at pwcalc ladies and gents. http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=31ae22397bfd081a 2x +50% acc rings, and sage fox, like he said, barely breaks 1500 acc. that is kinda crappy when you think about it. how are you supposed to hit anything like this?

Since the devs seem to be in no rush to fix the pdef debuff bug, accuracy is not really useful. You can hit anything with just 1 accuracy.

Not gonna comment on the rest since I'm not sure if you're talking PvE or PvP.

Desdi - Sanctuary

Solandri thank you so much for all the effort you put in every post! There's always so much to learn from you.
I had completely forgotten about the physical defence debuff. With Ironwood or pet skill Pierce the Venomancer has no problem fighting in fox form in terms of accuracy.

Zairi - Dreamweaver

Oh i didnt even know that. o.O
Thanks for those numbers Solandri.
+12 is kind of not gonna happen for me but maybe one day +8.

Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

Solandri thank you so much for all the effort you put in every post! There's always so much to learn from you.
I had completely forgotten about the physical defence debuff. With Ironwood or pet skill Pierce the Venomancer has no problem fighting in fox form in terms of accuracy.

I actually tested this out once, with my demon ironwood and came to figure out that the debuff actually has to hit for the trick to work.

i.e.: if you use ironwood on a mob, switch to foxform and DD, you won't miss as long as ironwood is up. even if you have hardly any accuracy.

I hardly miss as it is, but testing this, i did miss a few times when demon ironwood debuff missed. but every time it hit, i didnt miss.

but, I supposed this would be better tested on a lvl 9 veno hopefully with no dex added, and since they are just now able to learn foxform and ironwood. So i might test that out.

Desdi - Sanctuary

Yes of course, as long as the debuff hits and is on otherwise it doesn't make any difference.
I should also mention the Barbarian & Cleric physical defence debuff. If the timing is right, the debuff should/could be up all the time and thus a Venomancer in fox form should always be able to hit the boss.

Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary

Yea, barb and cleric debuff is nice too. but don't forget about a bm's glacial spike. I have a lovely cleric friend that uses her debuff's every chance she gets. And i also love stacking amp with bm debuff. time it just right, and you'll both cast at the same time. and cooldowns are both 30 secs, so if timed right you'll always stay in-sync with each other.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

tearvalerin wrote: »

veno expert tired of lurking here to end the debate!

No, not really.

dude, dunno what planet you're from, but yes it is O_o;
-horrible p.atk per refine.
-the highest available p.atk magic weapon - pataka, slow as dirt
-the most remotely reasonable melee substitute - magic sword, they hit like lower level assassin weapons. kind of inferior to other DD classes, really |:

What idiot veno uses a pataka for doing melee attacks? lol?

Pataka highest available p.attack?

Buddha's Leaf: 1.25 AR 456-684 (level 95 lunar gold magic sword)
http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/16097

Dying Spirit: 1.00 AR 535-654 (level 95 lunar gold pataka)
http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/16112

Yeah right. The rest of this silly nonsense..

uhwat? how was this ignored o-o. he said the dex was garbage. lets take a look at pwcalc ladies and gents. http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=31ae22397bfd081a 2x +50% acc rings, and sage fox, like he said, barely breaks 1500 acc. that is kinda crappy when you think about it. how are you supposed to hit anything like this?

.. and this solandri covers, however, fox form, especially the sage version, has no issues hitting mobs. None whatsoever. This is another hypothetical made up by people who guaranteed don't even have a HA/AA veno.

the only way this is possible is if they have a decent stacked - interval rating. they dont out damage casters at all otherwise. some of them sparking pure mag **** hurt like hell, especially the sage ones. +900% m.atk boost + chi gain out the *** man.

Oh yes they do out damage magic casting veno's..

its extremely situational. theres only one major boss that's really wood immune, and mana drain is irrelevant with a cleric/sage sprint/spark. refill your mp super quick and easy, and get back on that casting horse. even as a pure mage/LA i wouldnt melee; we're not really made for it.

A veno should not sit there and expect a cleric to be constantly purifying them unless the veno is tanking over everything else in the squad. In the case of bosses like Peachblossom or the third boss in Nirvana, it's way more efficient to attack in fox form as a HA/AA veno. NG/MB cannot keep up with mana spamming attacks plus severe mp drains, so a veno in these cases (not rare to be doing either boss) has to eat pot after pot after pot while the melee veno keeps attacking and debuffs following spark attacks.

since you seem to love using rhetorical questions as a debating technique (ie a logical fallacy) you pointed out that venos had other skills made for melee use. this was being addressed, and you cant call someone out for addressing your point and use it as if it was some flawed argument into cluelessness on how a class works.

but he is right, ****, ****ing melee skills on venos hit for **** damage, and that aint ever gunna change.

No, sadly, you both are incorrect. Again, why is there a need to argue hypothetical points? There are numerous HA/AA venos here who play. One of which I guarantee you won't respond to, he just owned your stupid magic sword <-> dagger theory.

(cough)frostblade(cough)

CoughnoaccuracyormeleepassivestohelpwithFBcough.

besides the point, i believe the point here was being made that they can capitalize on their defensive buff in robes. they don't need HA to achieve BM like defense.

Without a doubt a HA veno can get way more physical def than an AA build can. There is no doubt about this, especially when fox form, especially the sage version, gives such high phys def bonuses that get amplified with HA gear. Plus, BM's can phys marrow. You might wanna re-think such a hilarious assertion, though it's easy to tell you haven't put much thought, nor any actual playing time, into how a HA/AA veno works.

then what would be the incentive of an HA veno? i mean, really if its just for the defense, robes really do get the job done just as well..

i mean if that were the case, what would the point of an LA wizard be, or an LA psychic (dont laugh, ive seen these), if not other than for the defense. if they're meant for pure magic offense, i say what's the point.

that entire last paragraph of his pointed out: VENOS ARE MADE FOR SUPPORT. you only supported his entire conclusion with this stupid section here lol.

The incentive of a HA/AA veno, as someone who has and plays a level 100 HA/AA veno, is do to very decent physical attack damage, moderately decent magic attack damage, debuff, all the things a veno normally does, with a tilt toward melee attacks. Caster venos will do **** damage in fox, but will do better magic damage than HA/AA venos in most cases. The reason to be HA/AA is the versatility it offers, especially if you like playing in fox, which without a doubt supports melee as a decent build. Again, phys atk skills, phys atk passives, accuracy and phys def bonuses, as well as having bonus phys atk damage along with bonus mag atk damage with spark, which you conveniently ignored, is the point. A LA veno is neither better at physical damage than a HA/AA build nor better than a AA veno at magic damage. It's a crappy build and an expert in nothing. Even a LA build has less phys def than HA, and doesn't have the versatility to switch to AA for decent mag def.

No, that did not support his entire conclusion. Maybe you didn't read it properly. Those skills are not based on your magic attack. Both of you are guilty of ignoring half of what makes a veno a veno, and half of the benefits PWI gave to a veno which is why so many venos now play HA/AA hybrids. All both of you are guilty of are glittering generalities about a build you've obviously never had nor played, all while people who have the very build you criticize laugh at silly theoretical attempts to dissuade others from trying a build that is quite viable. Every build has it's downsides, but no veno build has as many upsides or flexibility as the HA/AA build.

he didn't, he called them flawed and/or useless.

Which is why he's in such bad company around a lot of HA/AA venos who actually know what they're talking about. b:chuckle

he has plenty of legitamate points, which you are conveniently just responding to with just rhetorical questions, and logical fallacies.

point and case: HA/ARCANE ROBE if just not as effective as the other three builds in this one person's eyes, in which he argued quite logically. its pretty profound how stupid people get over someone having a different opinion, for ****s sake. grow up guys.

"In this one person's eyes".. "responding with just rhetorical questions and logical fallacies".

He's not arguing from any statistical based standpoint nor by experience. And neither are you. In fact, the only argument that you've put up that even tangible is how patakas have more phys atk than magic swords and they don't. You're wrong and not only are you wrong, but it's you and your buddy who are the only ones that are arguing hypotheticals, as any substance you try to put into the notion that a HA/AA build sucks gets thrown back in your face and shows how little you know about this game, and especially the venomancer class.

tearvalerin

What idiot veno uses a pataka for doing melee attacks? lol?

Pataka highest available p.attack?

i was awfully vague there; but yes http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/12651 this pataka has the most available p.atk in the game, and it is slow as dirt. its made specificially for attacking, but i do not know why anyone would.

.. and this solandri covers, however, fox form, especially the sage version, has no issues hitting mobs. None whatsoever. This is another hypothetical made up by people who guaranteed don't even have a HA/AA veno.

and this has nothing to do with being an HA veno. its a bug, which in reality has no business supporting your claims. this has nothing to do with being hypothetical, its fact with **** accuracy you are going to miss alot.

fix the pdef debuff bug,

being unaware of this bug, that is a new one by me.

Oh yes they do out damage magic casting veno's..

did you not even read solandri's post? it confirmed everything we've been saying

The fox veno's two big weakness are:
Lack of skills which do enough damage to make them worth using. But as you pointed out, we get some awesome debuffs which IMHO more than compensates. And at endgame, DPS comes from interval.
Inability to attain more than 2.22 atk/sec due to lack of interval equipment and demon spark not giving an attack speedup.

you need interval to make up for that damage, and that the melee skills suck. how was this not even a tangible argument? oh wait, its just you ignoring things like you are so into accusing people of doing. innttteerrrvvvvaaaalllll.

tis easier just to cast in my opinion, should i want to DD.

A veno should not sit there and expect a cleric to be constantly purifying them unless the veno is tanking over everything else in the squad. In the case of bosses like Peachblossom or the third boss in Nirvana, it's way more efficient to attack in fox form as a HA/AA veno. NG/MB cannot keep up with mana spamming attacks plus severe mp drains, so a veno in these cases (not rare to be doing either boss) has to eat pot after pot after pot while the melee veno keeps attacking and debuffs following spark attacks.

hey! you just confirmed my point! its extremely situational. one or two bosses in one instance does not make it something you need to depend upon. but even then it wouldnt matter in other situations. ive had to herc tank peachblossom on multiple occasions. i gave a ton of valid ways to get right past it, spark, sage sprint, cleric, mp food, etc. not that i expect a cleric to sit around and be my purify *****. hell, what does this have to do with anything? why even bring it up?

No, sadly, you both are incorrect. Again, why is there a need to argue hypothetical points? There are numerous HA/AA venos here who play. One of which I guarantee you won't respond to, he just owned your stupid magic sword <-> dagger theory.

what? how was the assassin thing my theory? ****** get your people straight. i said, and read this slowly, i know you have a hard time doing this, :

but he is right, ****, ****ing melee skills on venos hit for **** damage, and that aint ever gunna change.

you asked

There are other skills that do physical damage. What do you think that's for?

he addressed it, and then you called it cluelessness.

this was confirmed by:

The fox veno's two big weakness are:
Lack of skills which do enough damage to make them worth using

point and case: veno melee skills suck like a kirby vaccuum.
which you are totally blowing out of proportion with your inability to read.

CoughnoaccuracyormeleepassivestohelpwithFBcough.

you claimed wizards dont have anything to support melee. i proved you wrong. it increases p.atk, which aids melee. though i find it highly unlikely a wizard would melee, you are still wrong.

Without a doubt a HA veno can get way more physical def than an AA build can. There is no doubt about this, especially when fox form, especially the sage version, gives such high phys def bonuses that get amplified with HA gear. Plus, BM's can phys marrow. You might wanna re-think such a hilarious assertion, though it's easy to tell you haven't put much thought, nor any actual playing time, into how a HA/AA veno works.

lol are you ****?

this is avryll's veno:
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=7a79c7e0f7b0b9c6
15k def, FIFTEEN THOUSAND. yes, that is possible on a wizard too, easily mr. 'silly assertion.' due to the way stone barrier / FF / herc buff works. it isnt an extra 50% def, its doubled + 50 pretty much. I.E. demon stone barrier. oh but id assume you'd know that mr. 'i have a wizard too.'

this is BM like defense - marrows.

No, that did not support his entire conclusion. Maybe you didn't read it properly. Those skills are not based on your magic attack

which was you entirely missing his point. he said venos are made for support, and he does not need ridiculous defense to do so. all of those moves you listed are support moves. thus you are supporting his claim.

He's not arguing from any statistical based standpoint nor by experience. And neither are you. In fact, the only argument that you've put up that even tangible is how patakas have more phys atk than magic swords and they don't. You're wrong and not only are you wrong, but it's you and your buddy who are the only ones that are arguing hypotheticals, as any substance you try to put into the notion that a HA/AA build sucks gets thrown back in your face and shows how little you know about this game, and especially the venomancer class.

you fail at reading comprehension, defend yourself from criticism with your own criticism (tu quoque), argue points that have nothing to do with his previous point (ignoratio elenchi), attack his credibility/character (ad hominem), and answer questions with (loaded) questions. if you cannot come up with a feasible argument without fully addressing the points at hand, keeping people straight, or riddled with fallacy, dont even bother trying at all.

the only thing i was incorrect in is my horrible p.atk per refine ascertation. but feel free to rage all you like, bro. been playing and understanding venos since before you even cast your first venomous.

Kittennice - Heavens Tear

tearvalerin wrote: »

point and case: veno melee skills suck like a kirby vaccuum.
which you are totally blowing out of proportion with your inability to read.

OMG XDDDDDDD That made me lol.b:victoryb:chuckle

tearvalerin

Kittennice - Heavens Tear wrote: »

OMG XDDDDDDD That made me lol.b:victoryb:chuckle

tear aim's to please, love. it was something vulgar at first, but it was kind of racist at the same time, so i editted it.

Kittennice - Heavens Tear

Racism against a pink blob? Oh neva x3

So like this is another build debate? We're all venos here. This is like saying a basketball player can't croshay because it isn't in the job description and it'll make him a bad player. Or whatever. I don't feel like reading much lol. I just get boredz of arguments over ancient things unless theyre funny.

tearvalerin

lol dont bother, it's not even an argumant, its a farce. but feel free to watch us squabble over stupid things!

gelnd

With all due respect, I'd rather this thread not become a squabble. I started it to ask for advice on HA/AA, not to debate what's the "best" build. I appreciate contrasting the build with others so long as it remains civil and useful, but certain posters have already mentioned their intent to "dissuade anyone from taking a fail build" and that's not what this thread is for.

Kittennice - Heavens Tear

Sad to say it but its just how most people are on here.

Fist_Mama - Harshlands

but but but kirby vaccum lets me turn into zelda!!!!( and whoever eisle i swallow)

Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary

It's useless to argue back anyways. I've done it, but their just to stuck up in their stubborn way.

Kittennice - Heavens Tear

It reminds me of this story I heard long ago. Two friends were walking down the street together. One had on red glasses and the other had on green glasses. There was a white dog that went in their view and one guy was like "Hey, look its a red dog." And the other was like" Dude, you need your eyes checked. It's clearly a green dog." So they argued and argued over a stupid thing for hours never noticing that both of their views were correct. And outsiders just watched how stupid they looked arguing over the color of a dog that really had no importance whatsoever.

gelnd

Lol guys... now the thread is turning into bashing the bashers!

Kittennice - Heavens Tear

Meh it isn't my fault it reminded me of the story >.<

kenlee

lol! reading the whole thread, that Avryll guy really has some good points which most of you chose to ignore but whatever

i consider myself an average veno or under average (because of my gear) but i already can get 17k pdef buffed and i am vit/aa build. that is more than the majority of hybrids HA/AA venos i met, i'll probably score like 19k later on but idk how long i'll play. a wiz still hit me like 8k on my 10k magic defense, i dont want to know the damage they take on those HA builds.

then someone said that melee outdamage caster, its true only with interval. we did some calc. some long time ago and to outdps a 2.22 melee veno you needed like 72% channeling or so... i dont really remember exactly but the point is, there is no super uber damage as a sage melee veno

want to know whats the best dps and versatile veno? exactly what Avryll said... a LA veno, and demon. because of more reasons, you can still wear best magic weapons, considering some of them need only 285 mag (including G15 nirvana), you can wear all the interval gear and you can wear deicide with the right build. im not talking about going fox form with deicide but you can get that 650% bonus from spark in human form too. not to mention better crit rate and accuracy. we already had those threads, dont make me post all this again.

of course you can go full heavy, max str, almost no mag, dex for fists and so on for best theoretical dps but the most impractical imo.

yes i think that guy Avryll is fully aware that there is a fox tree but there is nowhere saying its only usable in HA. all the skills used in fox form are used for the effect. thats why i play veno as a support too

Meyki - Sanctuary

Avryll's "good points" were disproved, not ignored....

kenlee

Meyki - Sanctuary wrote: »

Avryll's "good points" were disproved, not ignored....

with no real arguments imo. i have the feeling thats the only one who really tested and rest of the people arguing against him were just talking...

Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary

My argument wasn't about vit arcane vs every other veno build. It was the fact that Avryll said this

i will do everything i can to try and dissuade others from following this build, because it is nonsensical to the way venos are ment to be played.

Both sides are right in the some points, but no player should dissuade another player from trying a build, which is exactly what Avryll was trying to do, and continued to do it even after the OP said that he didn't wish to be dissuaded but merely presented with facts.

kenlee

well, i said some good points not all... every player can try any build they want even if its a fail one like axe veno or whatever.

personally i pointed out somewhere in a recent thread that some HA/AA veno with 4 pieces of nirvana gear and better items in general has almost same pdef as me lol... its obvious that a HA build need a lot and a lot more coins to invest than other builds to get a nice result. i have decent defenses but i dont plan to tank ever... there are plenty of 4-5aps classes or other types of overpowered DD's in my faction or on my server, i just try to be a support and survive and thats all.

if i had to think about something else than arcane (which is obviously the cheapest to be efficient, no matter pure or vit) i would think about what other class i have on the same account to share gear and what its my budget to get that kind of gear. yes i would never go HA veno if its was the only char on my account. about farming that gear, i would never be able to solo 2-3 wurlord or ape as HA as i do now as AA unless i had much much better refines on weapon as HA. then there is pvp/tw and damn wizards have +12 weapons too and still hurt much more than others. see, for me its kinda like that

Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary

kenlee wrote: »

well, i said some good points not all... every player can try any build they want even if its a fail one like axe veno or whatever.

personally i pointed out somewhere in a recent thread that some HA/AA veno with 4 pieces of nirvana gear and better items in general has almost same pdef as me lol... its obvious that a HA build need a lot and a lot more coins to invest than other builds to get a nice result. i have decent defenses but i dont plan to tank ever... there are plenty of 4-5aps classes or other types of overpowered DD's in my faction or on my server, i just try to be a support and survive and thats all.

if i had to think about something else than arcane (which is obviously the cheapest to be efficient, no matter pure or vit) i would think about what other class i have on the same account to share gear and what its my budget to get that kind of gear. yes i would never go HA veno if its was the only char on my account. about farming that gear, i would never be able to solo 2-3 wurlord or ape as HA as i do now as AA unless i had much much better refines on weapon as HA. then there is pvp/tw and damn wizards have +12 weapons too and still hurt much more than others. see, for me its kinda like that

It's true that HA/AA build isn't the economical build. I'll admit that, but my point against Avryll's build was that his build wasnt exactly cheap either. http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=7a79c7e0f7b0b9c6. That's a nice arcane vit build set up, I'll give him that much, but imagine how much it costs to 4 socket those G 14 items and 2 socket the buddha's leaf.

It's weird the way i play, because im demon HA and i pve alot. Ofc I can't solo wurlord 2-3 or comso, but i really don't care if i can. I find soloing TT's pretty boring, tbh. Ive played arcane, then did LA for foxform from lvl 6x-90. and i loved it, but i figured out that i wanted a boost in my physical attack. So that's why I went heavy at 90. And i didn't lose much magic attack either. I can't really comment much on the pvp side, since i dont engage myself in that. But, I can say that my build with the way I play is perfect for me. I wouldnt change it.

It's all a matter of preference in accordance to playstyle. Advice is nice to give out about each build, but no one has a right to tell someone not to do it.

tearvalerin

It's all a matter of preference in accordance to playstyle. Advice is nice to give out about each build, but no one has a right to tell someone not to do it.

everyone has a right to tell someone to avoid a buiild if they dont find it spectacular. preference and play style is just a crock of **** pseudojustification to make yourself feel better about something not as efficient. its much like those sage archers who occsionally pop up and defend it adamantly... when everyone knows demon is far better.

i dont care if they are having fun doing what they are doing, what i do care is if my party gets the job done quickly and efficiently. if your 'special' build is a hinderance to that, then you are worthless piece of garbage to me. (i.e. HA assassin, LA barb; ive seen these >_>, etc.)

Solandri - Heavens Tear

tearvalerin wrote: »

and this has nothing to do with being an HA veno. its a bug, which in reality has no business supporting your claims. this has nothing to do with being hypothetical, its fact with **** accuracy you are going to miss alot.

Yes it's a bug. But it's the current state of the game, and the bug is triggered by some major veno, barb, and cleric skills, making it nearly impossible to avoid. You don't have to go out of your way to trigger it like equipping claws in fox form.

you need interval to make up for that damage, and that the melee skills suck. how was this not even a tangible argument? oh wait, its just you ignoring things like you are so into accusing people of doing. innttteerrrvvvvaaaalllll.

Unfortunately, because of the lame interval system they've implemented in this game, that's the best way to get DPS, period. Archers, BMs, Assassins, Barbs, and Venos all do the most DPS with interval and no skills.

lol are you ****?

this is avryll's veno:
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=7a79c7e0f7b0b9c6
15k def, FIFTEEN THOUSAND. yes, that is possible on a wizard too, easily mr. 'silly assertion.' due to the way stone barrier / FF / herc buff works. it isnt an extra 50% def, its doubled + 50 pretty much. I.E. demon stone barrier. oh but id assume you'd know that mr. 'i have a wizard too.'

Out of curiosity, I used that build as a template and converted it to an "equivalent" HA/AA build. Mind you I would never shard a heavy like this, but I just wanted to see how close they could get if you were trying for the same defenses.
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=deb40dce23e56e76

There you have it. Avryll's build has 250 more hp, 2250 more mdef, 2300 less pdef. Defensively I'd say they're pretty indistinguishable, within spitting distance of each other. But the HA/AA will get more hp from higher refines and thus eventually pass Avryll's build in hp. Increase the armor refines to +6 and the HA/AA is only 20 hp behind. By +8, the HA/AA is 400 hp ahead (yes, four hundred). Also, the HA/AA has the flexibility to switch armor pieces to raise or lower pdef/mdef as needed. Swapping the top for a TT90 top yields 22k pdef, or switch to full-arcane to match Avryll's mdef (and pdef if you choose to shard your arcane set with garnets).

Offensively, without sparks and using a Sage Ironwood - Lucky - Venomous - Venomous - Venomous - Venomous cycle for the caster, the heavy veno ends up doing 8773 raw DPS in melee. The caster using spells (with 18% channel due to the equipment selection) only gets 7537 DPS with a 12.98 sec cycle time needed to repeat Lucky. Only 86% as much DPS as the HA/AA.

I get the two having equivalent DPS when the caster has 39% channeling. That yields a 11.09 sec cycle time, so you'd actually have to toss in an extra Venomous to repeat the cycle (Lucky has a 12 sec cooldown). But Ironwood only has a 10 sec cooldown so figure it averages out. (This is another weakness of veno spells - the cooldowns on the good ones are long enough that you're forced to use Venomous a lot, which has atrocious DPS.)

Of course changing equipment to reach 39% channeling means giving up a lot of the pdef gear, meaning the caster is going to have considerably worse defense than the HA/AA. I think that point is being glossed over in this discussion. Channeling only comes on magic gear which frequently doesn't come with pdef, vit, or hp mods. Modifying Avryll's build for 39% channel results in a "mere" 10.7k pdef in fox form (although mdef goes up 700 points). It's very difficult to get HA-like pdef while simultaneously having high channeling, meaning high pdef on an arcane comes at the cost of reducing your damage output.
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=3e2526dcf6ead834

the only thing i was incorrect in is my horrible p.atk per refine ascertation. but feel free to rage all you like, bro. been playing and understanding venos since before you even cast your first venomous.

That and magic weapons being worse at melee than daggers. I went over these numbers way back in early 2009, which is when I first noticed the problems with the interval and refine systems. So that's when I started putting together plans to make my veno HA/AA to see if practice bore out the theory. So far, it has.

HA/AA is not a build for everyone. If you hate to melee, it's definitely not for you. In a pinch I can swap to magic rings, put on some channeling gear, and sling spells, but I'm considerably less effective that way. Not ineffective, but definitely less effective. And the cost is enough to make you cry. Most people I know have trouble affording even a couple pieces of their TT90 or TT99 gear. As a HA/AA, you're looking at getting two entire sets of them.

But I've always played jack-of-all-trades characters in RPGs, so for me the flexibility is more than worth the high cost and annoying planning I need to do for the build.

kenlee wrote: »

i consider myself an average veno or under average (because of my gear) but i already can get 17k pdef buffed and i am vit/aa build. that is more than the majority of hybrids HA/AA venos i met, i'll probably score like 19k later on but idk how long i'll play. a wiz still hit me like 8k on my 10k magic defense, i dont want to know the damage they take on those HA builds.

17k pdef buffed is what I'm at with my mixed set too. If I have to tank, I swap a few pieces and can hit nearly 23k pdef with cleric buffs. I've hit 26k pdef with Sage BM buff. Defensively I'd say I'm pretty average too. I've mostly been concentrating on offense and hp. My pdef and mdef comes from pretty vanilla gear - TT90, widely available molds, and Rank 5/6 armor which is pretty much the same as TT90.

This is with TT90 armor BTW. I haven't been able to play much and only picked up 4 levels all year (94 -> 98) so I haven't really looked into TT99 armor yet. Not sure what armor you're using.

Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary

everyone has a right to tell someone to avoid a buiild if they dont find it spectacular. preference and play style is just a crock of **** pseudojustification to make yourself feel better about something not as efficient. its much like those sage archers who occsionally pop up and defend it adamantly... when everyone knows demon is far better.

I said I wouldnt say anymore, but here i go again. This isn't an argument, but merely a statement...

You might ultimately have a right to tell someone to avoid a build if you don't find it spectacular, but it still doesn't make it a right thing to do. Also, everyone has a right to the build they prefer. I could say something similar to you "Telling someone to avoid a build is just crock of **** pseudo justification to make yourself feel better." Point is, it might not work for you, but it works for some.

i dont care if they are having fun doing what they are doing, what i do care is if my party gets the job done quickly and efficiently. if your 'special' build is a hinderance to that, then you are worthless piece of garbage to me. (i.e. HA assassin, LA barb; ive seen these >_>, etc.)

In parties I do my best to get the job done quick and efficiently. My build does not hinder that. I already admitted I'm not a cookie cutter with the magic damage compared to some, but it's not enough to slow me down or the party down. Lol. I've seen an HA assassin and a LA barb. The sin was in fcc, and the barb in TT 2-x. I didn't really question the sin of his build, because it still got the job done. Maybe not as effectively, but it was decent. I questioned the LA barb even more of his build. He used HA, but he switched to to part OHT LA for more magic def on wurlord. I agree it's not as effective as maxing out vit on a barb and using magic def ortaments, but hilariously it got the job done. I've also seen a HA psychic, and I have to agree that there is nothing efficient about that. That is like seeing a HA wizard or HA cleric. Those classes are better off in arcane, but comparing a heavy veno to a HA assassin, LA barb, or HA psychic/cleric/wiz is like comparing a mustard seed to a watermelon. Again: HUGE difference in effectiveness. You can compare a HA veno to a LA veno or AA veno, but the difference in effectiveness will be few and far between which is what Solandri has clearly pointed out.