Melee (non fox) Venomancer?
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kamatsudash
Posts: 0 Arc User
Hi,
I'm posting this as I've seen quite a few lvl 10+ Venomancers running around wearing heavy armor, wielding dual-maces and such. When fighting they don't cast any spells (obviously can't since not unarmed or wielding a magic weapon) and just auto-attack melee the mobs. Some of them have pets out, some don't.. and none of them use fox-form.
I thought that Veno's melee was all done in Foxform? Or can you use the fox melee skills outside of foxform?
Is this just people being silly? Or is there a valid reason for just melee'ing without (80% of them had no pet out) a pet? Is it quicker and easier to level just auto-attacking with no skills rather than using pet and magic attacks?
If quicker/easier to level auto-attack melee'ing.. just how long does this last before you'd need to consider using a pet and/or switching to either foxform melee or switching to a magic weapon and casting spells?
Guess I'm just trying to understand the mindset of playing a "magic caster" class (which can melee, albeit in a certain form as far as I thought...) as a auto-attack melee class using no skills rather than casting magic spells or using the melee form for melee'ing..
I'm posting this as I've seen quite a few lvl 10+ Venomancers running around wearing heavy armor, wielding dual-maces and such. When fighting they don't cast any spells (obviously can't since not unarmed or wielding a magic weapon) and just auto-attack melee the mobs. Some of them have pets out, some don't.. and none of them use fox-form.
I thought that Veno's melee was all done in Foxform? Or can you use the fox melee skills outside of foxform?
Is this just people being silly? Or is there a valid reason for just melee'ing without (80% of them had no pet out) a pet? Is it quicker and easier to level just auto-attacking with no skills rather than using pet and magic attacks?
If quicker/easier to level auto-attack melee'ing.. just how long does this last before you'd need to consider using a pet and/or switching to either foxform melee or switching to a magic weapon and casting spells?
Guess I'm just trying to understand the mindset of playing a "magic caster" class (which can melee, albeit in a certain form as far as I thought...) as a auto-attack melee class using no skills rather than casting magic spells or using the melee form for melee'ing..
Post edited by kamatsudash on
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Comments
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Basically they do it to be unique and different. People have carried the build to 9x and used a L20 wand anytime they wanted to cast buffs/debuffs/other spells.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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Alphae - Lost City wrote: »Basically they do it to be unique and different. People have carried the build to 9x and used a L20 wand anytime they wanted to cast buffs/debuffs/other spells.
lol well funny because when I was playing earlier today, 80% of the Veno's I saw were going that path. Guess it's likely to just be co-incidence, but funny timing imo.
So guess that just auto-attacking works then (seeing as ppl got it to lvl 90+..)? Wouldn't it just be more time-consuming with no/few actual skills they can use?
Edit - hmm, changing avatar changed posting name and post count. heh.0 -
You'd be changing your tune when you get booted out of BH or FF/RB squads. I've seen an axe veno without any magic skills or magic weapon or anything get that far, then she got booted from squads and changed her tune. Any class that can only single target hit stuff is completely useless in higher level instances that either require AOEs to survive or to run within a reasonable time. Hitting with axes can be a fun secondary thing (with my veno it was fun to watch her steal aggro in BH with calamitys) but without fox and/or human skills and doing only single target attacks, you'd be a fail and completely useless veno to a squad.0
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Don't let people fool you -_-' I'm a level 85 axe veno sporting the FF gold hammers. I have insane hp as well as physical defense. However, axe venos are never be allowed in FF or some TT runs unless there are some really nice people (which sadly I haven't). The reason why most venos never make it to my level or change around this time is peer pressure and the fact that every time you turn around you get called fail. But like I say everytime I see something like this pop up, To each their own. Some people may think it's fail but they don't realize there's no rules saying I can't be.[SIGPIC]http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b158/poop15267/Angel/Perfect World/mariananna.png[/SIGPIC]0
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Marian_anna - Heavens Tear wrote: »Some people may think it's fail but they don't realize there's no rules saying I can't be.
No there isn't, and I mean this with all possible respect, but is there a valid reason why you should? I seriously mean that with all respect. Just curious.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Alphae - Lost City wrote: »No there isn't, and I mean this with all possible respect, but is there a valid reason why you should? I seriously mean that with all respect. Just curious.
Meh it's something different I suppose. I just happen to find it incredibly fun and exciting.[SIGPIC]http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b158/poop15267/Angel/Perfect World/mariananna.png[/SIGPIC]0 -
Even if it is something different its still a total fail to go Axe Veno. Im a Melee Fox Veno and i have higher attack in fox form using TT99 Gold then i would, when i use Gold OHT100 Axes same refines. Cause of the 200% melee bonus for Magic Wep. BMs and Barb got Axe + Hammer Mastery 60% to increase the dmg. 60% mastery is alot on Axes and as Veno, ur missing it. And also dont forgett the Skills u cant use when using Axes , like AMP Purge and melee AoEs . The next advantage of Melee fox over Axe is ur able to use the cast AoEs Nova + Noxious Gas which are needed for RB + FF or else u wont get ur 99 Cultivation done in which u need to go do RB. What would an Axe Veno do in there ? first 2 waves running are ok and then ? so bassicly Axe Veno is a FAIL cause weaker attk/attkrate + not able to use Casts0
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I would imagine it not to be so difficult for an axe veno to hotkey a low level mag wep... I don't myself consider this to be a functional build, but as long as the veno is able to fulfill her squad role and manage a decent dps output for her character level (not the level of refine on weapon) then it certainly is her choice to make, and a squad would have no legitimate reason not to want her. Damage output varies a lot on different builds and with different pet configurations. As long as you can manage the same dps as 6 mag using a decent wep and rings with appropiate refines and a Walker, everything else is extra. The build seems solid on the defense side using HA, which makes ressilience a non issue.
As i've said before, we seem to have come to focus too much on minmaxing...0 -
Even on the defense side it sucks compared to other HA classes . BM got the Marrows to increase the Mag- and normal Defense . Barb got the True Form / Shape Shifting Intensity and Fox Venos get the Pdef through Fox Form. When im fully Buffed as HA i get 14k pdef Cast form and at Fox Form arround 23k pdef . So it Loses that part aswell .0
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MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »I would imagine it not to be so difficult for an axe veno to hotkey a low level mag wep... I don't myself consider this to be a functional build, but as long as the veno is able to fulfill her squad role and manage a decent dps output for her character level (not the level of refine on weapon) then it certainly is her choice to make, and a squad would have no legitimate reason not to want her. Damage output varies a lot on different builds and with different pet configurations. As long as you can manage the same dps as 6 mag using a decent wep and rings with appropiate refines and a Walker, everything else is extra. The build seems solid on the defense side using HA, which makes ressilience a non issue.
As i've said before, we seem to have come to focus too much on minmaxing...
Well, yea, it'd be incredibly easy for a HA veno to use axes and switch to a magic wep to cast amp.... then back to axes to normal attack. But, wth is the reason for that? Your dps would be alot better using a magic wep in foxform. (Your numbers would be lower, but you'd hit alot faster, and not to mention you can use skills) I'm very nitpicky about alot of venos, (Idc what your build is..... but if you dont at least use amplify damage at a boss, then you aren't even trying to do your job the slightest bit.)>.<0 -
Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary wrote: »Well, yea, it'd be incredibly easy for a HA veno to use axes and switch to a magic wep to cast amp.... then back to axes to normal attack. But, wth is the reason for that? Your dps would be alot better using a magic wep in foxform. (Your numbers would be lower, but you'd hit alot faster, and not to mention you can use skills) I'm very nitpicky about alot of venos, (Idc what your build is..... but if you dont at least use amplify damage at a boss, then you aren't even trying to do your job the slightest bit.)
Once again, i don't myself consider it a functional build. All i'm saying is that if a veno can meet minimum specs, it's her own problem if the build is unpractical... HA would still likely be better than Arcane just from hp gains in refining and as i've said, if it can manage the same damage output as the baseline (full vit with decent gear and Glacial Walker) then a squad's no worse for it.
It's one thing to point out a build's flaw (as it's frequently done with full vit or LA) and quite another to completely dismiss it as failure. That's like Tweakz territory...0 -
Axe veno is fail.
I don't care if you agree or disagree, but the reason why a build like that is fail is because you're gimping yourself. Why? Because a fox form HA veno can deal more damage than you AND use skills.
If it's because you think it's fun, than make an Axe bm, but do not waste your time on a veno.
claw using venomancer with 4.0+ aps can be interesting though.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Retsuko - Shifong
Karmapwi.com0 -
Actually, I ran the numbers once at level 60/70 and unless you're an interval build or have a weapon refined moderately high, the extra points a fox veno puts into mag can be dumped into str in an axe veno, resulting in slightly higher DPS than fox (the extra str and higher DPS of axes outweighs melee mastery in fox form).Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary wrote: »Well, yea, it'd be incredibly easy for a HA veno to use axes and switch to a magic wep to cast amp.... then back to axes to normal attack. But, wth is the reason for that? Your dps would be alot better using a magic wep in foxform. (Your numbers would be lower, but you'd hit alot faster, and not to mention you can use skills)
So at early and mid levels (when you have no interval gear and don't refine much) I'd consider it an unusual but viable build. But at higher levels, you're basically a BM with a pet but no really combat skills. HF and Amp work out to the same average damage increase (20% @ level 10, 30% with sage veno vs demon bm), so that advantage is effectively gone. And you don't have all the juicy stuns which get BMs invited to groups. So yeah you're not gonna get invited to many groups.0 -
MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »It's one thing to point out a build's flaw (as it's frequently done with full vit or LA) and quite another to completely dismiss it as failure. That's like Tweakz territory...
same ****, different color trollBe kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.0 -
MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »Once again, i don't myself consider it a functional build. All i'm saying is that if a veno can meet minimum specs, it's her own problem if the build is unpractical... HA would still likely be better than Arcane just from hp gains in refining and as i've said, if it can manage the same damage output as the baseline (full vit with decent gear and Glacial Walker) then a squad's no worse for it.
It's one thing to point out a build's flaw (as it's frequently done with full vit or LA) and quite another to completely dismiss it as failure. That's like Tweakz territory...
Well, it is fail. Idk why anyone would try it when they could just roll a Bm for axes. But, then again, i already stated what i expect veno to at least do in a squad. Idc, if you just stand there the rest of the time, but if you don't amp (at least when my amp wears off), then to me, you arent doing your job. (and those are my minimum specs)Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »Actually, I ran the numbers once at level 60/70 and unless you're an interval build or have a weapon refined moderately high, the extra points a fox veno puts into mag can be dumped into str in an axe veno, resulting in slightly higher DPS than fox (the extra str and higher DPS of axes outweighs melee mastery in fox form).
So at early and mid levels (when you have no interval gear and don't refine much) I'd consider it an unusual but viable build. But at higher levels, you're basically a BM with a pet but no really combat skills. HF and Amp work out to the same average damage increase (20% @ level 10, 30% with sage veno vs demon bm), so that advantage is effectively gone. And you don't have all the juicy stuns which get BMs invited to groups. So yeah you're not gonna get invited to many groups.
Well, yea maybe in lower lvls, but then again the veno throwing scarabs might as well be out DDing the axe veno normal attacking. Idk for sure, but i was considering what would be best for a 90+ squad. I've actually managed to steal aggro from a fist/claw bm w/2.0+ attack (probably 2.5 w/ demon spark). I know that's not much but considering that I dont have any interval for fox yet, thats pretty good imo. Also managed to steal aggro from a barb in human form by critting 105k in eden. And i never thought my scarab's would hit that high. lol. But, anyways, I dont think an axe veno could match that dps.>.<0 -
Others in a squad won't find it so fun, so know that your limitations in being able to only hit single targets at a time are going to deprive you of certain squads later on, and they would be in the right since a veno that can AOE and debuff in many of these instances is far more useful and thus would be picked first.Marian_anna - Heavens Tear wrote: »Meh it's something different I suppose. I just happen to find it incredibly fun and exciting.0 -
Honestly, when I first started (up to lvl 20) what I did was lvl my strength more than anything else because I am a close contact fighter and liked swords over magic, but I wanted to have a pet help me at the same time (so I'd switch between sword and wand)
But once getting higher up I compared my stats to what I was actually doing and while my STR was higher than my MAG my magic attack was still stronger than my str. Because that is how venos are meant to be, they have a magic advantage so that is when I stopped doing the swords and decided magic only.
Though, I will say, I don't do fox form. I don't like it. So I just cast things and heal my pet and let my pet do it all, I save up my spirit and money by not paying for the "while in fox form" things.
So, I understand what they are doing (as in more of a looking good and all) but in the end they are ripping themselves off because they should be putting those points toward magic and working that way, I mean, if you want to be a melee you have to up your strength A LOT MORE than the other classes who are meant for the melee stuff. But you can still do it. I personally wont because it's a waste for me. I have an advantage in magic, might as well take what I've got and use it for me instead of fighting it.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Though, I will say, I don't do fox form. I don't like it. So I just cast things and heal my pet and let my pet do it all, I save up my spirit and money by not paying for the "while in fox form" things.
Not playing a veno in Fox Form might be viable in low lvl's ( as you are now), but completely dumping it, would be extremely stupid, because you will miss many alternatives/options in high lvl.0 -
Shame Kittenmice isn't in this topic. Would have enjoyed seeing her opinion on it.
Personally, I'd only find this build viable at low and maybe mid levels when there's not much -int available and you wouldn't be refining your weapon much and Heavy/Robe is still too annoying to try to keep up with armor and weapon properly.
However, once you get to the higher levels, this wouldn't be viable at all and you'd mostly be gimping yourself, IMO.
Now if you had enough mag for a magic weapon your level and the the str/dex for a melee weapon that was at a relatively decent level as well, then I wouldn't have much problem with it... but dds are that wouldn't be the case for most (how many people still have problems trying to meet the basic reqs for heavy/robe? Yeah... )0 -
Well it seems the community has spoken. A word to the wise, do be careful with unusual builds. Just for the record, i have not been trying to defend this build but have merely pointed out my opinion that if it can in fact function on the same capacity as other venos while mantaining a similar dps output to those considered viable it shouldn't make much difference. Yeah, switching weapons is probably not as seamless as it may seem in practice but a veno's skills are used rather for the effect than for their damage. This component is dependant on level, not weapon, which means in theory you could effectively amp, spark, ironwood, myriad and nova with a lower level wep. Yes, AoE capabilities take the biggest hit but perhaps the use of genie skills such as Tangling Mire or Bramble Rage can somewhat make up for it.
Is this practical? Certainly not. But i reserve my opinion that it does depend on how this is played and if it indeed can manage some level of functionality. I'll agree that if all a veno with this build does is attack with axes, neglecting the class job, then yes, this is a failure. I would certainly not want to switch weps everytime my pet takes a hit, but then i imagine this would require very different tactics, which is (in my opinion) a legitimate reason to experiment with a different build. I for one, although it may seem i'm almost alone in this, would give such a veno the benefit of doubt.
Edit; And Tweakz, your newfound obsession with **** is starting to become downright disturbing...0 -
4aps veno seems very nice in theory,...
remain in caster-mode all the time, coz cant swap to fox in fists.
but our demon 3spark is 650% compared to 500% which other classes get. that makes up for the mastery we miss0 -
You raaaaaaaaaaang? ^,.,^
I'm really not going to argue on this subject. It's been brought up so long ago, this shouldn't be an argument. Those that say its fail "get bent" and stick with your's. Those that like it, keep liking it and keep playing as it. I hate arcane and really don't work with it well, but do I call it a fail? No. As long as you can play well, it really shouldn't matter.
Word of wisdom "Don't say something is fail because you fail at it."
You can say math is fail because you fail at it. But hey, we haz successful Mathematicians so it really can't be fail, now can it? Your argument is vacuous.
b:victory DucesThe VenoX: Heavy Pure Melee (Axe User with a hint of magic) Venomancer and Proud
Having fun since lv1
5 more levels baby!
^_____^
{=^.^=} < I'll never give up. Never give in. )
I'm for The Cursed!
pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=6561320 -
I would like to point out that somewhere between lvl 10 and 20 you get dual hammers as a quest reward, and at that lvl on a HA veno, they actually do much more damage then just using magic attack. I know the HA veno I lvled up used them for a while back then.
However, that pretty much stopped after she couldn't use axe/hammer close to her lvl anymore. Of course I still have a set of calamities on me 'cause sometimes it's just FUN to smack stuff when you've been grinding for ages and are bored! Also venos just look so cute wielding these HUGE things that are pretty much just waaaay too big for them.0 -
Ok, if it shouldn't matter, tell me how a melee non fox veno with no magic skills or magic weapon should do rebirth after running tickets? How about FF? How about lunar? Nirvana? I wanna know, since "as long as you can play it well it shouldn't matter" isn't going to help anyone.Kittennice - Heavens Tear wrote: »You raaaaaaaaaaang? ^,.,^
I'm really not going to argue on this subject. It's been brought up so long ago, this shouldn't be an argument. Those that say its fail "get bent" and stick with your's. Those that like it, keep liking it and keep playing as it. I hate arcane and really don't work with it well, but do I call it a fail? No. As long as you can play well, it really shouldn't matter.
Word of wisdom "Don't say something is fail because you fail at it."
You can say math is fail because you fail at it. But hey, we haz successful Mathematicians so it really can't be fail, now can it? Your argument is vacuous.
b:victory Duces0 -
JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »Ok, if it shouldn't matter, tell me how a melee non fox veno with no magic skills or magic weapon should do rebirth after running tickets? How about FF? How about lunar? Nirvana? I wanna know, since "as long as you can play it well it shouldn't matter" isn't going to help anyone.
It's called improvising. -.- And you people act as if melee venos don't spell cast. I infact do use them when they are needed such as para nova, scarabs etc. however my attack damage will come in melee aka axes whacking. DD roll you'll see me smacking something with axes. Tanking I'll switch to fox form when the boss hits hard then switch out to attack with axes. Supporting I'll use alpha male and foxform to get mobs on me and away from cleric and archers or DD in fists to prevent taking aggro but spam sparks to tank/cleric. I'm not going to give you a step by step thing to do in what instance. You wanna learn? Do it yourself or invite a true axe veno and find out how its done. I'm not going to write a How To Do Book.The VenoX: Heavy Pure Melee (Axe User with a hint of magic) Venomancer and Proud
Having fun since lv1
5 more levels baby!
^_____^
{=^.^=} < I'll never give up. Never give in. )
I'm for The Cursed!
pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=6561320 -
Fist fox-form venos are deadly in PvE.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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dark ironrock -> fist to death
gg0 -
DD in fists? We're talking about rebirth? The only time one would need alpha is during waves, and certainly no decent BM or archer or sin would be using fists during waves unless it was with a couple mobs left and exclusively to build chi before the chi aura went high. Coupled with your axe comments, I think I've read all I need to read. You don't need to write a "How To Do Book", it was actually a rhetorical question. No self respecting squad would take an axe veno. And this is from a person who has a HA/AA veno. No magic weapon and no magic skills (like purge, amp, SD (sage), scarabs, novas = crappy fail veno. Maybe you can write a How To Do Book on that.Kittennice - Heavens Tear wrote: »It's called improvising. -.- And you people act as if melee venos don't spell cast. I infact do use them when they are needed such as para nova, scarabs etc. however my attack damage will come in melee aka axes whacking. DD roll you'll see me smacking something with axes. Tanking I'll switch to fox form when the boss hits hard then switch out to attack with axes. Supporting I'll use alpha male and foxform to get mobs on me and away from cleric and archers or DD in fists to prevent taking aggro but spam sparks to tank/cleric. I'm not going to give you a step by step thing to do in what instance. You wanna learn? Do it yourself or invite a true axe veno and find out how its done. I'm not going to write a How To Do Book.0 -
JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »DD in fists? We're talking about rebirth? The only time one would need alpha is during waves, and certainly no decent BM or archer or sin would be using fists during waves unless it was with a couple mobs left and exclusively to build chi before the chi aura went high. Coupled with your axe comments, I think I've read all I need to read. You don't need to write a "How To Do Book", it was actually a rhetorical question. No self respecting squad would take an axe veno. And this is from a person who has a HA/AA veno. No magic weapon and no magic skills (like purge, amp, SD (sage), scarabs, novas = crappy fail veno. Maybe you can write a How To Do Book on that.
Obviously, you haven't read my post so I'm done trying to explain. I don't need my time to be wasted.The VenoX: Heavy Pure Melee (Axe User with a hint of magic) Venomancer and Proud
Having fun since lv1
5 more levels baby!
^_____^
{=^.^=} < I'll never give up. Never give in. )
I'm for The Cursed!
pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=6561320 -
Kittennice - Heavens Tear wrote: »Obviously, you haven't read my post so I'm done trying to explain. I don't need my time to be wasted.
Don't let him get to you -_- This is a war that will never be won because people wont let others just enjoy the game.[SIGPIC]http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b158/poop15267/Angel/Perfect World/mariananna.png[/SIGPIC]0
![http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b158/poop15267/Angel/Perfect World/mariananna.png[/SIGPIC]](http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b158/poop15267/Angel/Perfect%20World/mariananna.png[/SIGPIC]){kind=link}
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