is def lv broken after a point?

It's not necessarily broken, it just suffers from severe diminishing returns when it gets too high.

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=698392

^ this thread might give a bit of insight on this problem.

well, did you really think that a sage psy with 15 JoSD would be invincible?

Ellantria - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Uhh, Dian, refining armor doesn't give +pdef. Refining just gives +hp. To increase pdef, you'd have to shard garnets.

Phys ornaments and might rings (if you feel like having one of those for whatever reason) both grant phys defense when refined.


*goes back to lurking this section of the forums*

Ellantria - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Uhh, Dian, refining armor doesn't give +pdef. Refining just gives +hp. To increase pdef, you'd have to shard garnets.

But the having only +39 def levels while in black voodoo (I'm assuming Demon, since with the -11 defense levels sage and level 10 have, you'd only get 37 def levels), really only equates to you having about a 9 def level advantage, due to basically everyone in PWI having jones. However, if you added the anni blessing on to that, you'd have 54 defense levels in black voodoo. Which would equate to a 32 def level advantage over jones users, though you'd still be at a 12 attack level disadvantage versus jones + CoTD sins, 17 vs sage sins.

= 3= So, while it would be an alright alternative to sharing garnets with about a 3 garnet: 1 citrine ratio, it's way more expensive and out of the more average player's budget.

*cough*nottomentionyou'reprobablysporting+10equipssoyoudon'thavetoworryaboutHP*cough*

For P.def refines, I think he's referring to jewelry.

As for this:

But the having only +39 def levels while in black voodoo (I'm assuming Demon, since with the -11 defense levels sage and level 10 have, you'd only get 37 def levels), really only equates to you having about a 9 def level advantage, due to basically everyone in PWI having jones.

That logic is absolutely flawed. Just because the game views 0 attack and 0 defense level as the standard doesn't mean you should too. +39 is +39, no matter where your actual advantage lands you. Just because he only has a "defense level advantage" of 9 doesn't mean he hasn't reduced incoming damage by 39%, and just because people wear Jones blessing doesn't mean defense level is useless.

The only difference is that people now hit harder thanks to Jones Blessing. Just because people will still hit about the same as they used to before Jones Blessing with all those defense levels does NOT mean the defense levels are useless.


Also I dunno wtf all that **** about sins is all about, though I do know it's not "objective thinking."

Okay, I lied about lurking since I had some free time to make this post.

Ellantria - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Well, the advantages require your defense levels to beat out your opponent's attack levels.

For example, if you are fighting a BM who is wearing the anni blessing, he has 15 attack levels and 15 defense levels.

If you are in level 10 white voodoo, you have a 51 defense level advantage, meaning you take 51% less damage after the other reductions are taken in.

Then let's say you switch to level 10 black voodoo. In level ten you have -11 defense levels, so you are at a 26 defense level disadvantage, meaning you'll take 26% MORE damage from that BM wearing an anni blessing's attack.

Now then, if he is wearing jones' and you are in level 10 white voodoo, you are only at a 36 defense level advantage, meaning you take 36% less damage. And in black you are at a 41 defense level disadvantage.

Now then, because Dian has +39 defense levels in black voodoo, against jones wearers only 9 of those levels actually benefit him. Since Jones is +30 attack levels, he is only 9 levels above an opponent. He is still getting a benefit, just not as much as he would in white voodoo. If he were to equip the anni blessing, he would have 54 defense levels, or a 24 defense level advantage. So a 24% damage reduction.

HOWEVER, fighting against sins makes this more complicated due to Chill of the Deep. At level 10, it adds 30 attack levels to a sin. With anni + black voodoo, Dian would be at a 6 defense level disadvantage against the sin. In white, with 121 defense levels, he would have a 61% defense level advantage.

Now then, unless your defense levels OUTLEVELS your opponent's attack levels, it's useless. But since Dian's outlevels most of his opponents, it is useful to him.

HOWEVER, the average player doesn't have access to the tens of millions it takes to get all four sockets on level 100 gear and 24 Jade of Steady defense, meaning that his build is useless to the average player and the average player is better off sharding garnets and citrines.

But if you have the money to do all of this and refine your gear to +8 or higher, then it would benefit you.

But at the same time, you're not looking at the full picture. Even if you have less defense levels than your opponent does attack, or only have a minor amount more than their attack levels, you're still reducing overall damage done.

Say someone normally hits you for 100 damage. With Jones bless, and you having 0 defense levels, that becomes 130. Now, let's assume you have the anniversary bless on. The damage you'd take would now drop to 115. Sure it isn't enough to negate their attack levels, but it's still an effective source of damage reduction. Now let's just say your opponent was packing a warsoul, chill, jones bless, and had frenzy on. That's 130 attack levels meaning you'd take 230 damage instead of the original 100. If you stacked 24 JoSD for the 48 defense levels, that damage taken would drop to 182, a large difference even without having a defense level above your opponents attack level. Toss in the 66 defense levels from white voodoo and that gets the damage you'd take down to 116. Throw in the anniversary blessing and it drops down to 101. Sure, your opponent would still have an attack level advantage over you in this scenario.... but could you honestly say the defense level is not only not worth it, but that garnets and citrines would have managed to get you a similar effect?

As for your final statements, it's already widely acknowledged that when you're poor and have low refines, you shard garnets and citrines because you have no actual defense for the defense levels to build up on (If someone can 1-shot you without critting while you have a defense level of 0, a defense level of 50 will only give you a chance until they do crit.). However, once you start to refine your armors/ornaments, it's quite recommended to switch to defense level stones as it not only makes black voodoo a bit less dangerous for you, but it also gives an overall greater benefit compared to the other options available.

Born_Free - Harshlands;
:O You guys are rolling Harshlands? Come and see Long and Urdian and that's it.

Fixed xD

I understand what you're trying to say, I just completely disagree.

Next to attack levels, defense levels are the most powerful feature in the game and not nearly enough people take advantage of them. The only reason I put attack levels first, is that if you can kill someone before they hit you then you don't have to worry about defense .

A dead character, no matter what class, is less useful than one that's alive. Granted, you need some minimal levels of HP, physical defense, and magical defense to stay alive. However, as I said in the VERY FIRST sentence of my original post "If you can refine for HP and p.def" then defense levels are an amazingly powerful add for Psychics. With end game gear, it's not too hard to get to 5K p.def and 5K HP as an arcane class like psychics.

Now, lets consider the 10x psychic that has reached 5K p.def and is now considering what shard to add to that next empty socket. If he adds a Garnet Gem (costs about 15M give or take on Harshlands), his PHYSICAL damage mitigation will probably not increase by even 1%, it certainly won't increase by 2%. Also, he's done nothing to change damage vs magic attacks. However, if he adds a Jade of Steady Defense (costs about 12M give or take on Harshlands), he adds 2% damage mitigation against all types of attacks. Now granted, if in White Voodoo you're probably going to be subject to some diminishing returns, however, if you're in Black Voodoo, most people will get the full 2% reduction.

Now, this example was for only adding ONE shard. Take that and multiply by 3, or 10, or 19 (the number I wear), and you have made a significant difference in survivability. No longer is a psychic just a "glass cannon". We're now an offensive force that can deal with a variety of situations, both PvP and PvE, and have a tremendous ability to STAY ALIVE!

I think all psy can agree...def. lvls help. So let that be the plateau that we all stand on firmly.

From that point, in my opinion, I think it branches off like any class, into the way you're going to play your psychic. I personally play my psychic in a way most people don't agree to, but I've built myself for more PvE than PvP. Sharding with Citrine to get a lot of HP and having my White maxed so in a pinch (I actually have my White macroed with my SoR which is also maxed) I can turtle myself to try and survive. Granted this focuses dangerously on defense. In PvE, the mob's and bosses won't be attacking as fast as in PvP.

In PvP, it's understandable why people would want to shard with Def. Lvl shards. If they're in Black all the time, it's like holding up a huge sign saying "I'm in a weakened state, one-shot me!". Whether it's useful to have ALL your sockets filled with def. lvl shards, personal opinion, but I can see removing that -11 def. lvl status from Black Voodoo a high priority on PvP servers, or for PKing.

We're so diverse...it makes me smile knowing there's still a nice variety in what appears to be such a straight-forward class.

... ...Psychics Rule!

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »

i thought that UrDian had def lvl ~121 in white



yup, my point, there has to be a cap. either hard (99 as you said) or diminishing returns which appears to be the case


anyway, **** defense, DoTs everywhere!
oh, and btw, last time i checked dots ignore defense/attack levels so it's not every attackb:surrender

def level has increasing returns last i looked

its hard capped at 99

the only class that has a DoT worth useing is psys and none of you ever seem to play with em

Ellantria - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Defense levels are MOST USEFUL when you outlevel your opponent's attack level.

They are STILL USEFUL when you do not but NOT AS USEFUL as when you outlevel them.

And as for the jones and whatnot.

IF YOU HAVE 39 DEFENSE LEVELS and your opponent has 30 ATTACK LEVELS, 30 of your defense levels are negated by your opponent's 30 attack levels.

This puts you at a 9% damage reduction advantage. You STILL HAVE THE OTHER 30%. THAT DIDN'T MAGICALLY DISAPPEAR, IT'S STILL THERE.

BUT, you're only really getting the 9% extra, since the other 30% was used to lower your opponent to base damage.

This isn't even a PW issue or a Psy issue. This is a math issue.


This is how it is, simple as this:

1 (defense level) - 1 (attack level) = 0

Simple as that. The idea that the 1 representing the defense level is somehow less of a 1 when the result is lower than 0 is simply ridiculous. If your opponent raises his attack level to 10:

1- 10 = -9

Then there's nothing you can do about it. Your opponent now hits harder. As you say, the defense level does NOT disappear and it is STILL protecting you the same amount that it would, COMPLETELY REGARDLESS of how high your opponent's attack level is. Attack level has nothing to do with the value of defense level, as one defense level will ALWAYS decrease incoming damage by 1% (unless you have a crapton of it apparently, but here we're discussing defense level in relation to attack level). If you have 39 defense levels and your opponent has 30 attack levels, how much have you reduced incoming damage? By 39%. The difference is simply that your opponent also hits 30% harder, but you're still reducing incoming damage by 39% more than someone without defense levels, no matter what. If someone has 0 attack level and you have 39 defense level, how much have you reduced incoming damage? By 39%. The exact same amount. Their increase in attack does not diminish the value of your defense levels. At all. You're somehow arguing that a 1 becomes less than a 1 if you add it onto a negative. As if 1+3 will see better effectiveness and get more results than 1+ -3. In both cases, the resulting number increases by 1. Simple as that.

BUT.

If you only have 15 attack levels, you are at a 15 defense level DISADVANTAGE, because you are lacking enough to return you to base damage and defense. Do you understand me now? It's like have -15 defense levels.

NO idea what this is supposed to mean.

Now, is -15 better than -30 defense levels (You without defense levels versus a jones user)? Yes.

Correct. You've reduced incoming damage by 15%, whereas the latter number hasn't reduced jack.

Is it as useful as +9 defense levels or +36 defense levels from white voodoo? No.

^THAT is what I've been trying to say. Defense levels are useful, but they are MOST USEFUL if you OUTLEVEL YOUR OPPONENT'S ATTACK LEVELS. [/QUOTE]


....NO! O_O

It makes no difference. A defense level is a defense level is a defense level. It reduces the incoming damage by the same 1% no matter what. Your opponent's attack level is what has changed. Instead of reducing 1% of 10000 damage, you are now reducing 1% of 13000 damage. Defense level is EXACTLY the same and has the EXACT same effects. Attack level is your variable.


So no, I have NO idea what you're trying to say when you argue defense level is more useful when you have more of it than your opponent does attack level. It's the same reduced % no matter what; what you're referring to is a change in the incoming damage, not in the effectiveness of the defense level.

And quite frankly, I don't see what this has to do with anything. Your same argument could be applied to physical/magical resistance. "Physical/magical resistance is most effective if you have more of it than your opponents physical/magic attack." Still doesn't make sense, as a resistance point is a resistance point is a resistance point.



I'm just severely curious now as to what you're trying to say here. :P