Wizards are toughest to play? Ok.

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear · September 2010

Feiric - Harshlands wrote: »

That's very interesting, but you completely missed my point.

I can tell from your comparison that you interpreted my words "Great DPS" as high DPS. While not entirely wrong, you only included one factor in what makes, "Great DPS." If you read after the first sentence, you might have gotten my meaning. You also did a very nice job proving my first quote in your post right.

Alright, let me break it down this way. I'll start off with the same sentence I did last time.

"Anyways, the DPS thing is waaaay overrated and misunderstood, and a lot of people don't seem to realize this. " (Clever to leave that second half out.)

Super high DPS is the equivalent to driving a race car with super sensitive controls. Yeah you can do things faster, but you also waste a whole lot of time if you get in a wreck - not just for you, but everyone around you (like your squad in the game). It comes with a lot more risk. Sure, there are people who can handle it, but from what I've seen, it's a small club.

Why would anyone pick a class like this opposed to "better" DD classes? A question like that coming from a level 100 wizard is interesting ... Anyway, the only answer to that question would be an opinion when you get down to it. I'll give you mine, just to help you see my side of the argument, even if you disagree.

Wizards seem to have the best car-breaks. Our longer channeling gives us more time to react and stop DDing when things go wrong in squads, or when we DO steal aggro. Is that incorrect? You seem to get the most control of your output with a Wizard in your slower, harder hitting attacks.

You finish an instance much faster if you don't get a party wipe. That being said, super high DPS is just more risky in stealing aggro. As I said before, there are people who can handle it, and good luck finding them.

You don't realize, if they steal agrro in end game gear what happens? Absolutely nothing, because they are tankers anyway. Except sins. Wizards are useless now except even useless TW nowadays.

Feiric - Harshlands · September 2010

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You don't realize, if they steal agrro in end game gear what happens? Absolutely nothing, because they are tankers anyway. Except sins. Wizards are useless now except even useless TW nowadays.

Sure. End game gear is very nice, but a lot of people don't have it because it's hard to get.

Ugh, if you guys want to be apathetic about your wizard toons then go ahead. Your problem, not mine.

I'm just wondering why you still bother with the whole subject of wizards if they're so useless as you say. Why not play a different class, if the one you're playing is useless? Why not just delete your useless wizard?

Arma_Geddon - Heavens Tear · September 2010

I

my wizard

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear · September 2010

Feiric - Harshlands wrote: »

Sure. End game gear is very nice, but a lot of people don't have it because it's hard to get.

Ugh, if you guys want to be apathetic about your wizard toons then go ahead. Your problem, not mine.

I'm just wondering why you still bother with the whole subject of wizards if they're so useless as you say. Why not play a different class, if the one you're playing is useless? Why not just delete your useless wizard?

I don't play this game any more. I'm playing private pw which is much more balanced and free. This game going down hill and I just waiting for new mmorpg coming out. I stopped play this game after almost 2 years of playing just because of this unbalances.

Sirrobert - Dreamweaver · September 2010

Feiric - Harshlands wrote: »

That's very interesting, but you completely missed my point.

I can tell from your comparison that you interpreted my words "Great DPS" as high DPS. While not entirely wrong, you only included one factor in what makes, "Great DPS." If you read after the first sentence, you might have gotten my meaning. You also did a very nice job proving my first quote in your post right.

Alright, let me break it down this way. I'll start off with the same sentence I did last time.

"Anyways, the DPS thing is waaaay overrated and misunderstood, and a lot of people don't seem to realize this. " (Clever to leave that second half out.)

Super high DPS is the equivalent to driving a race car with super sensitive controls. Yeah you can do things faster, but you also waste a whole lot of time if you get in a wreck - not just for you, but everyone around you (like your squad in the game). It comes with a lot more risk. Sure, there are people who can handle it, but from what I've seen, it's a small club.

Why would anyone pick a class like this opposed to "better" DD classes? A question like that coming from a level 100 wizard is interesting ... Anyway, the only answer to that question would be an opinion when you get down to it. I'll give you mine, just to help you see my side of the argument, even if you disagree.

Wizards seem to have the best car-breaks. Our longer channeling gives us more time to react and stop DDing when things go wrong in squads, or when we DO steal aggro. Is that incorrect? You seem to get the most control of your output with a Wizard in your slower, harder hitting attacks.

You finish an instance much faster if you don't get a party wipe. That being said, super high DPS is just more risky in stealing aggro. As I said before, there are people who can handle it, and good luck finding them.

I like that one. I'd compare wizzy to a 10ton truck in that comparasin. Not so fast but hits like.. well like a truck b:chuckle

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur · September 2010

I play a wiz (192 levels worth now on 2 different servers) because it is fun. The skills rock. I love how the ground shakes when I throw a BT. I love seeing glacial snare fly towards my target. Black Ice Dragon Strike and WoTP are probably the coolest looking skills in any game I've ever played. I even love emberstorm (god help me). I love saving a squad wipe with sutra + wizzie heals, or take over healing the tank while the cleric rez the rest of the party, and having the whole squad be like "how the hell did you DO that". b:chuckle

But noone ever WC's "Looking for Wiz for FC/BH/FB, squad ready to go". Noone gives a Wiz top picks for mats in TT runs. We are replaceable in every context in this game.

Look at the number of wizards in your squad, in your faction, on your server. Now look at the number of any other class. Go ahead, pick one and compare. Especially the newer servers. People play wizzie for 30-60 levels (or less) and reroll. Far more than the number that take them to end game.

Don't get me wrong: Clerics do have their challenges. But those challenges IMO have to do more with Clerics being the least "fun" to play, not the hardest. I'll give you that. I tried to level a cleric twice, and was bored off my *** by level 30 both times. Its not fun to wrongfully get the blame for squad wipes, or to have people who can't control aggro make you hop from tank to aggo thief and back again. Or to constantly pester you for buffs, or rez, or whatever. Least fun? For me that would be cleric hands down. Venos are equally boring imo, but at least you get a nix if you want to pk later, and that looks hella fun. b:victory

You can "I have it harder for this" and "you have it easier for that" all day for all of the classes. When the dust settles, the hardest class will be the one least in number at end game. And that class, more often than not, is the wiz.

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear · September 2010

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur wrote: »

I play a wiz (192 levels worth now on 2 different servers) because it is fun. The skills rock. I love how the ground shakes when I throw a BT. I love seeing glacial snare fly towards my target. Black Ice Dragon Strike and WoTP are probably the coolest looking skills in any game I've ever played. I even love emberstorm (god help me). I love saving a squad wipe with sutra + wizzie heals, or take over healing the tank while the cleric rez the rest of the party, and having the whole squad be like "how the hell did you DO that". b:chuckle

But noone ever WC's "Looking for Wiz for FC/BH/FB, squad ready to go". Noone gives a Wiz top picks for mats in TT runs. We are replaceable in every context in this game.

Look at the number of wizards in your squad, in your faction, on your server. Now look at the number of any other class. Go ahead, pick one and compare. Especially the newer servers. People play wizzie for 30-60 levels (or less) and reroll. Far more than the number that take them to end game.

Don't get me wrong: Clerics do have their challenges. But those challenges IMO have to do more with Clerics being the least "fun" to play, not the hardest. I'll give you that. I tried to level a cleric twice, and was bored off my *** by level 30 both times. Its not fun to wrongfully get the blame for squad wipes, or to have people who can't control aggro make you hop from tank to aggo thief and back again. Or to constantly pester you for buffs, or rez, or whatever. Least fun? For me that would be cleric hands down. Venos are equally boring imo, but at least you get a nix if you want to pk later, and that looks hella fun. b:victory

You can "I have it harder for this" and "you have it easier for that" all day for all of the classes. When the dust settles, the hardest class will be the one least in number at end game. And that class, more often than not, is the wiz.

Nice said. But not enough for me to stay in this game, especially when new 100000000x games coming out early.

Feiric - Harshlands · September 2010

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I don't play this game any more. I'm playing private pw which is much more balanced and free. This game going down hill and I just waiting for new mmorpg coming out. I stopped play this game after almost 2 years of playing just because of this unbalances.

Well I'm with you there. I still enjoy this game enough to keep playing, but I'm waiting on Forsaken World, which seems like a fresh start and new spin from the same company.

Sirrobert - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I like that one. I'd compare wizzy to a 10ton truck in that comparasin. Not so fast but hits like.. well like a truck b:chuckle

Well yeah, and that fits a further analogy I thought of after I made that post. PVP is like a race track. Super high DPS classes are more like race cars that are meant to be on the track.

However, race cars don't belong on the freeway or highways (squads, for example). If you were an ambulance (cleric), and there were race cars speeding through the streets on a daily basis, who do you think would be your biggest customer? My cleric is lvl 71 now, and the comparison seems spot on.

My most recent memory in squad on my cleric: there were two assassins and a veno, along with my usual barbarian counterpart. So far it's rare when someone dies on my watch, but healing these guys was like a cleric-obstacle course. I just stayed with the group because it seemed like a really good challenge. If I could see this squad through, I thought, I can consider myself a pretty good support cleric.

And BLOODMYSTIC - I have seen people calling out for wizards for FC almost on a daily basis, even though it is like once a day.

Borsuc - Raging Tide · September 2010

Feiric, what you don't realize is that in a MMO, especially one like this one that at end-game almost every freaking stuff you can do (endgame related) needs a squad (without completely OP people ofc), so it's all about community.

The "great DPS" doesn't matter. It's just a matter of comparisons. Like, how our DPS is in comparison with others. You see, people don't care if wizards have "great DPS" (whatever that is): as long as something else does the job better (i.e more DPS, comparison) why would they take wiz?

Suppose running an endgame-related thing takes 10 mins with a wiz, 4 mins with an assassin. And with a class that doesn't have much DPS, suppose it takes 15 mins. Still, for the "DD" spot, which would you rather take? It doesn't matter if the wiz has "great DPS" all it matters is, something else has better so everyone picks that.

No matter how much you convince yourself that you have great DPS (and I'm not saying I disagree or anything), it's still other people you depend on. Cause frankly we're one of the worst "soloers" in the game too.

People would rather take claw barbs than wiz/magic classes for DD even.

And don't think psychics have it better, their DPS is only slightly better. If clerics were used for DPS purposes they would be even worse. Venos have amps & pets though (full damage on [?] stuff). Notice pattern? Yep, it's all about magic classes here sucking.

Feiric - Harshlands · September 2010

How many times have you been kicked out or refused in a squad for being a wizard?

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear · September 2010

Feiric - Harshlands wrote: »

How many times have you been kicked out or refused in a squad for being a wizard?

You will never be kicked. You just don't find squad. Lot of times i saw in world chat. That looking for nirvana members, BUT just fist BM/Barb/Archer/Sin required. Of course you will find squad but much more less than fists classes. Nobody will not tell you or kick you, just will not invite you.

King_Solomon - Heavens Tear · September 2010

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You will never be kicked. You just don't find squad. Lot of times i saw in world chat. That looking for nirvana members, BUT just fist BM/Barb/Archer/Sin required. Of course you will find squad but much more less than fists classes. Nobody will not tell you or kick you, just will not invite you.

Actually I see people refusing wizards while recruiting for FB and such. They're noobs... Don't bother with them! Explaining that Wizard is the 3rd best DD class is really a waste of time.

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur · September 2010

Feiric - Harshlands wrote: »

And BLOODMYSTIC - I have seen people calling out for wizards for FC almost on a daily basis, even though it is like once a day.

On our server they call for "dd" for fc, and no they won't boot a wizard. My point was never that they won't take a wiz, but more often than not the squads fill up with dd first, and people then wc for a barb, or a cleric or a bm. Its rare to see one just look for dd in general, and VERY rare to see them look specifically for a wiz.

If that's your experience, that's great. Not mine on more than one server (but admittedly not yours).

Adroit - Lost City · September 2010

King_Solomon - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Actually I see people refusing wizards while recruiting for FB and such. They're noobs... Don't bother with them! Explaining that Wizard is the 3rd best DD class is really a waste of time.

3rd best DD? What are you smoking?

HexOmega - Dreamweaver · September 2010

uhm no, no kicks, in most of my squads i am squad leader in the first place (or friends/faction), the one who wastes teles and picks on people to join

i have to admit i prefer any class over a second wizard(or a psy) for $-stuff

nirvana with two wizards/psy is a pain (1 total useless **** DD is more then enough)
warsong will most likely fail (lack of dps, tank dies, everyone dies, fail)

the favorite class i have in my squad: a friend :P

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur · September 2010

HexOmega - Dreamweaver wrote: »

the favorite class i have in my squad: a friend :P

Awwwwwwwwwwww, can I be ur fwiend?

Feiric - Harshlands · September 2010

I wish you guys weren't having such a hard time in the squad experience. Most people are starting to think wizards are a horrible class or something, because there's fewer than before. Although, maybe it is a good thing lots of people think we're a lesser class. Keeps us less crowded. It's fun to get stuff like, "Oh! 9X wizard! Nice!" when I join squads, or more recently, my last two factions. Given that, it doesn't seem so bad sometimes.

That's the last of my arguing that wizards aren't a bad class. I love this class, and I guess the fact that the general public thinks it's useless gives us more chance to surprise them. In reality, when people ask for a DD, it's the first person to PM them. Otherwise they would specify beforehand. Some people do, enough people don't. We'll be fine, I think. People will miss that frostblade someday.

Wanna sit back and accept being useless? "I'm a wizard ... Is that ok?" You're not helping. That's my take on it.

... ... Ok. THAT'S the last of my argument.

fulgida · September 2010

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

Suppose running an endgame-related thing takes 10 mins with a wiz, 4 mins with an assassin. And with a class that doesn't have much DPS, suppose it takes 15 mins. Still, for the "DD" spot, which would you rather take? It doesn't matter if the wiz has "great DPS" all it matters is, something else has better so everyone picks that.

And how long are they going to spend recruiting for their squad?

Yes, some will spend an extra hour recruiting people to shave 5 minutes off their run. But you can usually find other people, and some of us even have friends.

Meanwhile, if you play your wizard well, you will have squads seeking you out and inviting you.

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur · September 2010

Noone is saying that they absolutely won't take a wizard, to the point that they will spend an extra hour recruiting some other class and turn down wizards.

What we are saying is we are the fat kid in gym class. Noone says "pick the fat kid". And if there are other choices, we get picked last.

fulgida · September 2010

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur wrote: »

Noone is saying that they absolutely won't take a wizard, to the point that they will spend an extra hour recruiting some other class and turn down wizards.

What we are saying is we are the fat kid in gym class. Noone says "pick the fat kid". And if there are other choices, we get picked last.

And yet, in my experience: good wizard will get picked over a typical member of another class unless that class is essential

Adroit - Lost City · September 2010

fulgida wrote: »

And yet, in my experience: good wizard will get picked over a typical member of another class unless that class is essential

your experience doesn't chive w/ mine at all. Love the occasional gc, "Need DD for nirvana (mages need not apply)."

Borsuc - Raging Tide · September 2010

Guy: LF 3 DDs for Nirvana.
Me: wiz for nirvana
Guy: Nope not wiz or psy sorry.

/ragequit

(ok not really but you get the point b:laugh)

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver · September 2010

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

Guy: LF 3 DDs for Nirvana.
Me: wiz for nirvana
Guy: Nope not wiz or psy sorry.

/ragequit

(ok not really but you get the point b:laugh)

b:surrenderi get in quite a few nirvanas, just too lazy to do a lot atm.

Shadowfire has like 25 raptures doing nirvana and he started like 2 weeks ago.

Depends on personal experience i believe

Blood_Panda - Raging Tide · September 2010

personally I prefer a wiz over other class DD

As a tank myself, if i can choose..

we will need a Bm/Cleric first.. both give good buff that make a tank.. a Strong tank.

with archers/sin around i cant use devour , as they might snatch aggro.

Psy is good if they can heal reasonable amount but they dont have buff that a tank really need.

Wizard however is able to off heal if needed,
buff us with water attack.
Doesnt benefit from Devour phy debuff.

violetvalor · September 2010

Psychics have Empower Vigor which ups the effect of heals and pots and also reduces the cooldown time of charms.

Prohibited - Heavens Tear · September 2010

Blood_Panda - Raging Tide wrote: »

personally I prefer a wiz over other class DD

As a tank myself, if i can choose..

we will need a Bm/Cleric first.. both give good buff that make a tank.. a Strong tank.

with archers/sin around i cant use devour , as they might snatch aggro.

Psy is good if they can heal reasonable amount but they dont have buff that a tank really need.

Wizard however is able to off heal if needed,
buff us with water attack.
Doesnt benefit from Devour phy debuff.

pretty sure psy aoe heal and purify > negligent water damage added to the class with the lowest attack in the game

I personally would never take another wiz to nirvana and I am a wizard. Psychics have higher DPS and better buffs.

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver · September 2010

Prohibited - Heavens Tear wrote: »

pretty sure psy aoe heal and purify > negligent water damage added to the class with the lowest attack in the game

I personally would never take another wiz to nirvana and I am a wizard. Psychics have higher DPS and better buffs.

only sage psy gets purify

my 3 wiz nirvana squad took 20 mins + last boss
3 wiz, 1 BM, 1 sin, 1 cleric

Borsuc - Raging Tide · September 2010

BM or sin were probably 5aps or close. So point is moot. Do it with absolutely no 5aps people, and measure how long it takes.

EDIT: Actually take absolutely no melee people at all no matter their aps (you never know) except a tanking barb (tank build not fist build), would be fairer to see the dmg output on mag classes then. b:cute

fulgida · September 2010

I am wondering if anyone has ever tried dropping a blademaster heaven's flame + veno amp + wizard frenzied black ice dragon strike on goldwing phoenix? If you take him from half health to dead in one hit, can you avoid that big roasting turkey?

Aleeranan - Sanctuary · September 2010

Some of this has been said before but let me just summarize the facts.

Wizard is not a DPS class, it's a DPH class. Therefore the only thing wizards are good for is pvp. In regular pvp for the average wizard it basically comes down to "I hit you first, you die, you hit me first I die." I don't find that to be fun so I don't really solo pk with my wizard. The ONLY activity that my wizard is actually useful for is TW.

Now having established that wizards are only good for pvp, that leads to the conclusion that wizards are useless in instances. Nearly every other class has better DPS, better control skills, better aoes, and better survivability. If you need someone to save your cleric from rouge mobs and walkers, archers, venos, sins, bms and even psychics are better for that task. None of these classes is going to die if they don't get assistance after taking the mob in about 6 seconds. Being useless in instances = inability to farm your own gear. You're a DD so you NEVER get first pick of mats. Even if people take pity on you to help you farm it will still take twice as long as it would for, say, a cleric, and people will ALWAYS take a cleric if possible, even if they have a veno tanking. No one wants you for Nirvana unless you already have epic +12 Rank8/Nirvana/TT99/TT100 weapon, so no hope of making money that way much less actually farming enough raps to Nirvana your gear.

I've been a wizard for a long time, and I've come to realize that you just have to accept that you're useless in instances. Wizards are specifically built for one purpose only, and that's pvp. Don't try to lie to yourself and say that wizard is a pve class. So making money to improve your gear so that you can actually be useful in the one role that your class is good for is ALWAYS going to be hard.

Anyway, that's why people say wizard is the hardest class. It's not actually hard skill wise, in fact it's one of the easiest in that sense. It's hard because it's hard to get good gear without wasting tons of time farming money, and endgame is all about having good gear.

Wizards are toughest to play? Ok.

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