Wizards are toughest to play? Ok.
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Feiric - Harshlands
Posts: 240 Arc User
Now, I've played wiz for a while. Not a huge PvP person, despite the server I'm on. I got my wiz to 70 by the time BH came along a year ago, and started before genies came out. I will say that I don't think wiz is the hardest class after getting serious on this Cleric. Sure, we have to know our **** to go out there. (I'm a bit drunk right now. Just started drinking some vodka that's been sitting in my car for a few weeks.)
One thing wizards don't have to deal with is responding to jerks who steal aggro. Seems like any DD class besides wizzies, in my experience, don't have the aggro 'control' that we have. Seems like anytime I play the cleric role in groups with my cleric, I have to juggle anteater magic just to keep the party alive, namely assassins, psychics and archers. I'd say clerics have it pretty hard. Let's not even start with the fact that clerics have to taste the almighty fury of party wipes, unless they have a rez scroll and guardian scroll.
Point of this rambling is, the difficulty of wizards might be a little overrated.
Cool story, bro. There, said it for ya. Enjoy.
One thing wizards don't have to deal with is responding to jerks who steal aggro. Seems like any DD class besides wizzies, in my experience, don't have the aggro 'control' that we have. Seems like anytime I play the cleric role in groups with my cleric, I have to juggle anteater magic just to keep the party alive, namely assassins, psychics and archers. I'd say clerics have it pretty hard. Let's not even start with the fact that clerics have to taste the almighty fury of party wipes, unless they have a rez scroll and guardian scroll.
Point of this rambling is, the difficulty of wizards might be a little overrated.
Cool story, bro. There, said it for ya. Enjoy.
Post edited by Feiric - Harshlands on
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You're comparing 2 different things, clerics in instances and wizards outside of them. When people say wizards are hard to play they mean that outside of instances as in questing, grinding, u have to know how to play (while as cleric u spam ih on yourself and u can go berserk). Ofc in instances the cleric is harder to play duh.0
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Well, cowboy. I'd say knockbacks and kiting are a bit easier to deal with than trying to deal with a scrambling group of cats who steal aggro from eachother. I'm not talking in two subjects. I'm talking overall - including the PMs you deal with asking for buffs and pms while taking down whatever's in front of you.
With a wiz, you know what you're dealing with most of the time. Clerics are judging who needs the most attention, which varies group by group.0 -
Feiric - Harshlands wrote: »Point of this rambling is, the difficulty of wizards might be a little overrated.
This be a human made game....Everything here be ridiculously easy to me...even with me inhibitors.
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Yeah, I'm with hamsta on this one. None of the classes are particularly difficult... though 1-20 on an archer is pretty much an exercise in boring frustration.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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i really dont think wizzies have it that hard true a cleric can spam IH and go nuts but your mp goes by so fast its not even funny >.>
and in instances its soooo hard because when a charm ticks on a barb or a squad wipe happens guess who gets the blame? thats right the cleric gets yelled at for it most of the time >.< and in an instances its not even funny how much of a headache u can get with aggrohungry sins and archers/bms or a full nirvana squad who are on there first run like many people have said a pro cleric usually plays baby sitter for the squad >.>b:angryb:infuriated0 -
This makes me wanna go back to lvling my cleric just so I can let aggro stealers die in instances (with my lvl 1 ress)
I agree on most peeps. When they say wizzy is hardest, they usually mean to stay alive in solo questing/grinding/stuf. Cleric can heal theselfs properly during the fight, which makes it easier for them.
I also agree that clerics have the most shtty job when it comes to squads9 out of 10 voices in my head say I'm not crazy... the 10th is singing the music of tetris0 -
Sirrobert - Dreamweaver wrote: »This makes me wanna go back to lvling my cleric just so I can let aggro stealers die in instances (with my lvl 1 ress)
I agree on most peeps. When they say wizzy is hardest, they usually mean to stay alive in solo questing/grinding/stuf. Cleric can heal theselfs properly during the fight, which makes it easier for them.
I also agree that clerics have the most shtty job when it comes to squads
all my frost squad/nirvana hate me bcuz my ress ish onleh lvl 1 :P0 -
XDarkJessX - Lost City wrote: »all my frost squad/nirvana hate me bcuz my ress ish onleh lvl 1 :P
Lols
Me tried to go on a frost run once on me level 1 cleric shop alt before.
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Went from 1-73 in 2 months, and I agree, wasn't that hard. First time playing PWI as well. Archer mobs that hit for like 20% of your health (low level pure robe
) are a definite pain, but I don't see a 6x barb doing much better against magic mobs. At least wizzies have a heal, lol. PvE is predictable, since you can't randomize code properly. Adapting to something repetitive is easy. However, there is no way to adapt to actions of a human when you've only met them for 10 minutes...
I've been with squads where the barb would pull in FC style, and ask for a heal without roaring. They never roared, got killed, and blamed the Cleric. Also been in Fb69 where too many poison mobs were agro'd. All 6 people including the Cleric got poisoned (don't ask how...). The Cleric got called a...well, I won't repeat it here, for not purifying the 4 people who wanted a purify at the same time. One of the reasons I can never play a healing class, I have a really short temper and this is just going to give me a heart attack >_>
On a not so related note, is it normal to see more sins in one BH squad than you have seen wizards in an entire week?"There's no art to find the mind's construction in the face."
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DDEShare - Raging Tide wrote: »On a not so related note, is it normal to see more sins in one BH squad than you have seen wizards in an entire week?
Yes! And my experiences accumulate to support the observation that they're aggro-stealing tendencies are second only to psychics. I think it's the high DPS. I've begun to think that high DPS doesn't make you awesome unless you can control it.
Sometimes I feel like leaving a BH squad simply because there's two or three assassins in it. BMs are also good at stealing aggro, but at least they can survive it if they're smart enough to pass it back to the barb.0 -
weird, i used to steal agro from DDs my archer, i used to tank the bh59 w/o agro problems not even sins were able to take agro from me
about being a wizzie i rerolled and i was like **** this is going to be hard/fun but is the same thing as the archer (wich is pretty easy to lvl) im going LA so for me is killing everything in 3-4 hits sometimes i get hit once (i just got d.s.), with the archer is maybe 4-5 hits w/o getting hit if u use k.b., the only dif. is that the wizzies so far are more expensive and hit harder even if u go LA (andthatwizziesown+90) about being a cleric i tried a 5X cleric and healing and sht is actually fun but i wont use a cleric in tw
cuz it sux + is expensive till 75
off topic i gotta practice how to use my d.s. xD0 -
I've played both cleric and wiz to 70+, and wizard is defintly harder to play.
On a cleric, you can heal and buff yourself. On a wiz, yes you can heal yourself, but its more cost effective to use a healing pot, rather than morning dew and an mp pot...
The funny thing about cleric is that IT'S ONLY AS HARD AS YOU WANT IT TO BE.
OP complained about stupid tanks, people always asking for help, etc. Well, you DONT have to do any of that. Somebody asks me for buffs? Sure, that'll be 5k. Tank wants to run into a group of mobs and not get aggro? I'm not ticking my charm/wasting mp on a rez, no sir.
I will admit that in instances, a cleric can be stuck with babysitting duty, but heres another thing to think about. If the cleric decides the squad is fail, how hard is it for a cleric to find a new bh/fc squad that needs them, compared to when a wiz decides the squad is fail and wants a new squad. Point is, clerics have more options if they feel like they need a new squad.
Oh, and dont wine about people blaming you (the cleric) for squad wipes, etc. If they were stupid enough to steal aggro or not hold aggro, then they obviously don't have enough inteligence to tell a good cleric apart from a bad one.0 -
Cleric in a full Leeroy squad with aoeing bosses, random aggro and seals is the hardest class to play imo T_T
though what i can say venomancer is a easy class in every aspect of the game including pvp
PIE WALK
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i did let some venos play my char while i was playing their veno, guess who died after a few mins xD?i like potato0 -
send fenix and kite thats pretty easy imo xD0
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No way.DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »On a cleric, you can heal and buff yourself. On a wiz, yes you can heal yourself, but its more cost effective to use a healing pot, rather than morning dew and an mp pot...
Morning dew is what? 500 mana? And heals to about 4k or more for me. (I know at lower levels it heals less, but then it also costs less mana... example, 180 mana at lvl1)
Of course it depends on your magic attack & weapon but it's not that great of a difference. It is still far superior to healing pots over mana usage.
I wish we had a "regain mp" by wasting 500 hp and gaining 4k mp, then I would never have to use pots ever again out of combat. b:chuckle0 -
Yeah, you can leave a fail squad and find another. You might get another squad quick, but you might not. Be realistic! On paper, being a cleric = easy to get a squad. When you go out there, it doesn't always happen, though.
Leaving a squad to find a better one is risky for a few reasons. 1 - the next squad you get could also be fail (likely, in my experiences). 2 - it might take 5-10 minutes to get another squad, even as cleric, so instead of saving time, you're wasting more time. 3 - on top of all that, you could just stay with your first squad and educate everyone on how to do that boss that party wiped you. It usually takes just 2 or 3 lines of words. Easy. Demanding good chemistry from a group of mutual strangers isn't a successful mentality. It just makes you an A-hole.
Anyway, as a wizard --- since you are DD, you are occupying one of the DD slots that could otherwise be taken by a moron who can't control his "uber DPS". Hard to say, honestly. If you are smart and you network with good people, after a week you should never have a problem getting a group from your friends list if you are a good wiz, or any class for that matter.
To DaKillinator - A cleric who would leave a party at the first sign of trouble ... is kind of a crappy player in general. Sorry dude. I can't stand arrogant players. And charging 5k from other people for you using your skills of a class that you chose to play is kind of a red flag, in my book. If you can't afford mp/hp pots or charms, play a veno.
Whatever. I guess it all comes down to opinion, huh? It seems like I've had to use my brain a little more playing a cleric, because I've been playing wiz so long. Given that, I still think cleric has more challenge than wiz in PWI. To be clear, solo grinding and running squads are both a part of this game nomatter what class you play, so I still don't see why people are separating the subject in an overall class difficulty discussion.0 -
Have to be honest I don't seem to have much of a problem getting squads for BH, Nirvana, TT etc even though i have been out of faction for 2 months or more. It's all down to how you deal with people when you do get squads....act pro and you'll get plenty of invites, act n00b and you can't really be surprised if you don't get asked when people are building squads.
But yeah, clerics do have a far easier life getting squads etc - these days you dont even need a barb or BM to tank things like BH instances, but you do need a cleric for nearly all of them....0 -
wizards are toughest to play.
why you may ask?
a cleric has to put up with all the stupidity tht is a squad, but they are always invited to run instances. Wizards dont have good dps, and most of the time arent even invited to squads.
This leads wizards to either buy there gear with rl$$ or not have gear. not having gear means even less instances. so no money, wizzie quits.
a classes job isnt the only thing tht makes it hard to play js[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Nurfed_You - Harshlands wrote: »wizards are toughest to play.
why you may ask?
a cleric has to put up with all the stupidity tht is a squad, but they are always invited to run instances. Wizards dont have good dps, and most of the time arent even invited to squads.
This leads wizards to either buy there gear with rl$$ or not have gear. not having gear means even less instances. so no money, wizzie quits.
a classes job isnt the only thing tht makes it hard to play js
Or....use teh competent mind and harvest humans for monies.
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i say easy if know how to build and use your money, wizzy are the most (i think) money consuming.0
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The price of either class is debatable. Nomatter how you get your gear (unless someone just gives you gear for free), you're either spending rl money, or rl time ... the more you put in, the more you get back.
Anyways, the DPS thing is waaaay overrated and misunderstood, and a lot of people don't seem to realize this. Other veteran wizzies probably already know that, though. I've never actually heard of anyone getting kicked/replaced because of low DPS (not to say it doesn't happen, because I know there's morons everywhere. I just make an effort to avoid them.)
DPS is just something number crunchers brag about - and by the way - I've seen more problems from high DPS than low DPS in squads, and you know what I'm talking about. High DPS is good for everything but squads, since it puts the whole squad at risk by **** up the tank/cleric flow.
Both have pros and cons and not enough people realize that. However, I've seen plenty of people kicked because they are obnoxious or they cause party wipes, as we all have. But those situations don't speak for this argument I suppose.
Lastly, the whole, "Wizards have low DPS," thing is so not true. We have great DPS, which makes us a good DD class. Ever think that other classes' DPS might be too high to control? It's possible and is the case in many party wipes.0 -
i say easy if know how to build and use your money, wizzy are the most (i think) money consuming.
Idk what makes you say that. You can pretty much kill mobs without them hitting you which means less repair costs than melee's. And because of the mp buff and mp regen we also have low mp costs. I mean u ever played a cleric? It's like having an mp drain 24/7 on you >.>
As for the wizzies in squads thing, idk personally i never had any problem of other people not wanting me in the squad cause of dps or something and i didn't have problems of not being able to farm my gear.0 -
Wiz is easy to play. I recently started one, don't have much time to lvl her, but I love kiting. xD Nothing can touch me, I'm lvl27 so far and haven't died. x) My BM died like 10 times until lvl20, because apparently, I fail at melee classes. x.x To me, melee classes are the hardest to play, because they cannot kite.0
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Zaelmith - Sanctuary wrote: »Idk what makes you say that. You can pretty much kill mobs without them hitting you which means less repair costs than melee's. And because of the mp buff and mp regen we also have low mp costs. I mean u ever played a cleric? It's like having an mp drain 24/7 on you >.>
As for the wizzies in squads thing, idk personally i never had any problem of other people not wanting me in the squad cause of dps or something and i didn't have problems of not being able to farm my gear.
oh forgot my cleric existed, my first, like supporting but hated the cost and quit at lv6X cause exactly of that. well ok nvm wizz are 2nd.To be a force need good gear to last or at least a decent weapon, weapon wasn't a problem armor was. kiting was fun until higher lv magic mobs hate them armor wasn't great so i was like butter. i guess had trouble farming and bought most of my gear and well that why i thought so.0 -
not as hard as i thought >_>
LA so far, have more phy def than a average geared lvl75 archer, just checked yesterday, and the blessing compensates my build so yeah...in fact i was doing my 49 culti yesterday with a 8X veno, with the leg. set nix/herc (both pets = $$$) anyways a sin pop'd and 2 shot the veno he wen after me but it took him like 5 - 6 hits to take me down...i was like lol with expel i would own ya...at this lvls i can probably (for the exp i had with the sin) take almost anyone in a 1vs1 (around my lvl ofc) i still dont know why ppl says is so hard to play...probably sux at end game cuz u need to put some $$$ on it...0 -
nope it's not.Feiric - Harshlands wrote: »Anyways, the DPS thing is waaaay overrated and misunderstood
Actually it is.Feiric - Harshlands wrote: »Lastly, the whole, "Wizards have low DPS," thing is so not true.
Sage Sins (well actually one I know) without even 5 attacks per second (more like 2.5 or so) with TT90 +5 weapon outDPS my +7 TT99 by 2-3 times. It's not even hard to measure. Test with ANY melee class with some -interval gear on Open Sesame boss in cube if you want "hands-on experience" instead of number speculation (I realize not many people like theory).
Just measure how long it takes. If you want, both of you don't even spark. If you think that melee build chi faster or something like that, they still have way more DPS without taking sparks into account on both. I'm not talking about 10% or 20% more, I'm talking several times more.
Actually it's not really wizards having low DPS, it's magic classes in general that suck in this game. At least psys have the black voodoo for DPSing, but it's still ****.
At least archers can turn to fists too for massive DPS in comparison with bows... even though they already do like 70% more DPS on average than magic classes.
Oh and of course, clerics can heal, which makes them useful in instances (less now due to bloodpaint, of course a stupidly overpowered melee buff). Now why the **** would anyone take a damage-dealing class that doesn't even deal damage comparable to a melee or archer?
The only thing we are good at is delta, and even there we can be replaced -- i.e wizards are not absolutely needed.
Devs have absolutely screwed up the concept of magic ranged attack and totally overestimated it. They gave physical (especially melee) already too many control skills, on top of that great survivability via skills or just HP-wise, on top of that awesome damage too.0 -
Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »nope it's not.
Actually it is.
Sage Sins (well actually one I know) without even 5 attacks per second (more like 2.5 or so) with TT90 +5 weapon outDPS my +7 TT99 by 2-3 times. It's not even hard to measure. Test with ANY melee class with some -interval gear on Open Sesame boss in cube if you want "hands-on experience" instead of number speculation (I realize not many people like theory).
Just measure how long it takes. If you want, both of you don't even spark. If you think that melee build chi faster or something like that, they still have way more DPS without taking sparks into account on both. I'm not talking about 10% or 20% more, I'm talking several times more.
Actually it's not really wizards having low DPS, it's magic classes in general that suck in this game. At least psys have the black voodoo for DPSing, but it's still ****.
At least archers can turn to fists too for massive DPS in comparison with bows... even though they already do like 70% more DPS on average than magic classes.
Oh and of course, clerics can heal, which makes them useful in instances (less now due to bloodpaint, of course a stupidly overpowered melee buff). Now why the **** would anyone take a damage-dealing class that doesn't even deal damage comparable to a melee or archer?
The only thing we are good at is delta, and even there we can be replaced -- i.e wizards are not absolutely needed.
Devs have absolutely screwed up the concept of magic ranged attack and totally overestimated it. They gave physical (especially melee) already too many control skills, on top of that great survivability via skills or just HP-wise, on top of that awesome damage too.
sadly I have to agree >.>Youtube Channel: youtube.com/user/D2VeT/videos?flow=grid&view=0
Current gear: pwcalc.com/6ab2893fbfb080a8
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Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »nope it's not.
Actually it is.
Sage Sins (well actually one I know) without even 5 attacks per second (more like 2.5 or so) with TT90 +5 weapon outDPS my +7 TT99 by 2-3 times. It's not even hard to measure. Test with ANY melee class with some -interval gear on Open Sesame boss in cube if you want "hands-on experience" instead of number speculation (I realize not many people like theory).
Just measure how long it takes. If you want, both of you don't even spark. If you think that melee build chi faster or something like that, they still have way more DPS without taking sparks into account on both. I'm not talking about 10% or 20% more, I'm talking several times more.
Actually it's not really wizards having low DPS, it's magic classes in general that suck in this game. At least psys have the black voodoo for DPSing, but it's still ****.
At least archers can turn to fists too for massive DPS in comparison with bows... even though they already do like 70% more DPS on average than magic classes.
Oh and of course, clerics can heal, which makes them useful in instances (less now due to bloodpaint, of course a stupidly overpowered melee buff). Now why the **** would anyone take a damage-dealing class that doesn't even deal damage comparable to a melee or archer?
The only thing we are good at is delta, and even there we can be replaced -- i.e wizards are not absolutely needed.
Devs have absolutely screwed up the concept of magic ranged attack and totally overestimated it. They gave physical (especially melee) already too many control skills, on top of that great survivability via skills or just HP-wise, on top of that awesome damage too.
Exactly.b:victory[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
If you have a squad that wants six 5 aps people, or five with a cleric, you are not going to get into that squad.
However, in other squads, you can have a role, if you put a little effort into it.
Your buff will increase the damage of a 5aps character.
You have attacks and skills that can pull aggro off of a cleric (and you have the ability to survive that aggro, for a few seconds anyways, if you have really good gear and leveled stone barrier you might even be able to tank it).
You have range (5aps is zero damage per second, and no chi building, for the second for two it takes to get into attack range).
You have some decent healing abilities -- not cleric level certainly, but if you have a cleric already a wizard can turn a bad situation into a survivable situation.
You have AoEs which multiply your dps by the number of opponents you have in your attack radius. And if you can coordinate with your blademaster you might be able to deliver several hundred thousand damage per target in a few seconds...
You have good magical defenses which will beat those of most any 5aps character you encounter.
All of this should be obvious, to anyone that has played a wizard.
Meanwhile, the damage output of those 5aps characters is heavily chi dependant. 5aps works great on a boss that just stands there and tries to tank them. 5aps is still nice, but not so nice, on random monsters that die quickly. You have to get to them before you can attack and if you spark you have to waste additional time before you start attacking and also if you triple spark you probably kill them before you build your chi back. And if you are a typical demon build 5aps you will not have 5aps without triple spark (and most of your 5aps dps comes from triple spark). If you are fighting monsters that move, these issues pile up, and all of a sudden your dps advantage over a wizard starts shrinking.
And then there's the whole tanking thing -- if you can not tank a monster your dps is limited by how much you can do without pulling aggro. And that might very well mean you do not dare use your triple spark.
Do not get me wrong: 5aps can be a wonderful thing. But if you can not figure out how to make your wizard useful, that will often be because you are not trying very hard.0 -
Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »nope it's not.
Actually it is.
Sage Sins (well actually one I know) without even 5 attacks per second (more like 2.5 or so) with TT90 +5 weapon outDPS my +7 TT99 by 2-3 times. It's not even hard to measure. Test with ANY melee class with some -interval gear on Open Sesame boss in cube if you want "hands-on experience" instead of number speculation (I realize not many people like theory).
Just measure how long it takes. If you want, both of you don't even spark. If you think that melee build chi faster or something like that, they still have way more DPS without taking sparks into account on both. I'm not talking about 10% or 20% more, I'm talking several times more.
Actually it's not really wizards having low DPS, it's magic classes in general that suck in this game. At least psys have the black voodoo for DPSing, but it's still ****.
At least archers can turn to fists too for massive DPS in comparison with bows... even though they already do like 70% more DPS on average than magic classes.
Oh and of course, clerics can heal, which makes them useful in instances (less now due to bloodpaint, of course a stupidly overpowered melee buff). Now why the **** would anyone take a damage-dealing class that doesn't even deal damage comparable to a melee or archer?
The only thing we are good at is delta, and even there we can be replaced -- i.e wizards are not absolutely needed.
Devs have absolutely screwed up the concept of magic ranged attack and totally overestimated it. They gave physical (especially melee) already too many control skills, on top of that great survivability via skills or just HP-wise, on top of that awesome damage too.
That's very interesting, but you completely missed my point.
I can tell from your comparison that you interpreted my words "Great DPS" as high DPS. While not entirely wrong, you only included one factor in what makes, "Great DPS." If you read after the first sentence, you might have gotten my meaning. You also did a very nice job proving my first quote in your post right.
Alright, let me break it down this way. I'll start off with the same sentence I did last time.
"Anyways, the DPS thing is waaaay overrated and misunderstood, and a lot of people don't seem to realize this. " (Clever to leave that second half out.)
Super high DPS is the equivalent to driving a race car with super sensitive controls. Yeah you can do things faster, but you also waste a whole lot of time if you get in a wreck - not just for you, but everyone around you (like your squad in the game). It comes with a lot more risk. Sure, there are people who can handle it, but from what I've seen, it's a small club.
Why would anyone pick a class like this opposed to "better" DD classes? A question like that coming from a level 100 wizard is interesting ... Anyway, the only answer to that question would be an opinion when you get down to it. I'll give you mine, just to help you see my side of the argument, even if you disagree.
Wizards seem to have the best car-breaks. Our longer channeling gives us more time to react and stop DDing when things go wrong in squads, or when we DO steal aggro. Is that incorrect? You seem to get the most control of your output with a Wizard in your slower, harder hitting attacks.
You finish an instance much faster if you don't get a party wipe. That being said, super high DPS is just more risky in stealing aggro. As I said before, there are people who can handle it, and good luck finding them.0
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