BH revision (rough draft)

Sheikah - Raging Tide · July 2010

ACLucius - Archosaur wrote: »

I'd say that pretty much does say that I am closed minded. If I weren't, or didn't appear to be so to you, then I would obviously be "open to the truth" which I obviously am. However, seeing as you weren't around for long before the BH system came in, based on you saying you've been here a little over a year, you haven't seen the decline which others of us have. You can only speak from your experience, I understand that and do not begrudge you such. However, people who have been around for a long time have seen the decline in player skill levels.

However, I'll be fair. Take the average BH51 run as an example. In total, it gives 250k exp for all three parts. Now, the run itself can take anywhere from 30 minutes (if everyone stacks quests) to 1 hour, more if the squad does poorly or there is excessive AFKing. So, you could earn 250k exp in 1 hour compared to how much in a zhen party in the same time space? Now, before you jump on your high horse (I know I sound like an **** saying this, but I'm not intending it as such) and say "but just cause you had to go through it the hard way doesn't mean we should," just hear it out. I don't care what I had to do in the past to level, that is irrelevant. What is relevant though is that this means the person who wants to grind can't level as fast.

I'm not saying cut BH down to being useless, I'm saying put it on par with grinding, except with a little more exp. I want BH to still be worth doing, because I like it personally. I just don't think it needs to give so much exp for such a simple task. Therefore, it should have an increased difficulty and a decreased exp gain. It doesn't need to be an insane amount, but a person who grinds should be able to level as quickly as a person who does BH.

I was not saying you were closed minded when I said you weren't open to the truth. Trust me if that is what I intended to say, I would have just said that from the beginning.

Secondly, don't tell me I haven't been here long enough because I have and there is no "decline" at least not because of BH. If your so worried about fast lvling stoping blaming BH and look at oracles, hyper exp stones, and the many exp events we keep having. Those are the real culprit. And anyone who would supposedly know how to lvl off BH learned from higher lvl, more experienced players ( no not from other noobs noobs >.>).

And no one that I know of can lvl straight off BH, I'm not saying its impossible but I really don't see it being that effective. At 57 I'm lucky if I even get 20-50% from BH and that's with it stacked.

Also, BH isn't meant to be on par with grinding, if you do that people won't use BH. Why, because they could just go grind. I'm sorry but I detect a hint of jealousy in that idea quite possibly.

I would also ask you to stop devaluing mine and other peoples opinion by saying we haven't been around to see this supposed trouble. Like we're some how blind to what has or is going on in game. Believe it or not suggesting something like that in a discussion is an insult which is unfair as I have not insulted you, at least not intentionally seeing as you misunderstood what I said about not being open to the truth. Bringing that up again let me explain what I did mean: what I meant by that was well like what you did with this last post. You criticize and devalue my opinion by basically implying I don't agree with you because "I haven't been here long enough".

And regardless you still ignore the fact no one except you wants it changed there are people who have posted who have been here longer then me and still don't want changes. So don't tell me I ain't seen the decline. That don't sound open minded to mine or anyone eases opinion who disagrees with you now does it? And no I'm not calling you closed minded here either I am on the other hand saying your behaving like it.

I have before this game been on a much harder mmo one where I said people got there wish the insane amount of exp people got from quests for the similar feature got cut down just like everyone wanted and they found out the grass ain't always greener on the other side. You need to think of what everyone wants not just your self, not just the high lvls who think BH causes fast lvling completely ignoring even faster lvling options available to players, such as oracles, hyper stones and exp events, or crazy stone for that matter. Also any of the supposed bad noob players have you ever asked them how they lvled up? If not how can you imply they misused BH when you don't know that, considering the other possibilities I mentioned? Since exp events, hyper stones, esetoricas have been available there are spikes in lvling even I can see it, since these have been around people lvl in the blink of an eye. So why do you ignore the real problem? Especially when you say you like BH?

I hear your reasons but your missing the real culprit, changing BH won't get rid of the other (more effective) methods that make people lvl way faster then BH.

Also, how fast someone lvls should be something someone decides themselves not you because its to fast or not fair. Such things shouldn't be up to you or me, because that infringes on another players right to lvl how they what with whatever method they want. How would you like it if a noob complained you lvl to slow and said grinding should be outlawed? (not that such a thing would happen let alone if it did actually succeed) Do they really have the right to tell you what methods to use to lvl? or how fast you should do it? No. So you shouldn't try to have the same control of others methods and speed of lvling.

Changes to BH won't get rid of noobs, noobs need Patience and understanding and do be taught to mostly do their quests, to know what skills they need, what the class is supposed to do in TW etc. Some people won't learn these things on there on, especially when it comes to tips and tricks of tanking and how to run an fb or instance. It's helpful to have someone apprentice you and teach you some things.

Also, just deal with the fact their will always be noobs both low and high lvl ones. PWE will not do anything that would scare even some of their player base away (least not the paying one *shrugs*). So you can either train the noobs and try to eradicate them or you can ignore their needs completely and just deal with their existence. I will also note there are more players now then there used to be So yes back when the game was new or back when it was closed beta people probably had more skill but its not the way they lvl now, its the change in the amount of players. There are significantly more players now then there used to be and that is inevitably going to effect skill lvl of players as there twice as many new people.

Telarith - Sanctuary · July 2010

Even making the FB done 10 levels earlier than current, it still will only solve part of the problem. It will help in boss tanking and a little on aggro, but it doesn't introduce the things that made people learn early on.

Because as long as it is able to be wined, it is a very basic 1v1 where aggroing other mobs isn't really an issue until around BH89. People seem to use the same strategy as usual, and cannot adapt when something goes bad, because there isn't many instances where it even can. Whereas with grinding only, people looked to maximize xp gain as much as possible, which meant pushing survivability to the limits and finding new ways to further increase it.

Could make it so the BH is for the instance, and total xp for all 3 BHs would be computed, and spread out as a boost to the individual mobs in the instance. So wining would reduce the reward, making it no longer worthwhile. Bosses will be done irregardless, for the drops. The ones who don't bother will increase the price of molds due to less supply, until it balances at the point where it is worth it.

Then you will have the people interested in doing it faster, so people would experiment on how to gather and kill to increase xp vs. time spent. So the want to experiment would be re-introduced and allow for learning.

EDIT: And there was always ways of gaining xp even before BH or Rebirth was cracked. CS, WQ, and Cube each day could easily earn 10% of lvl meaning with a bit of grinding and doing the few quests would be around a lvl a week. Now you can ask if anyone else feels like doing a cube run and have 9X ask what cube is.

ACLucius - Archosaur · July 2010

Sheikah - Raging Tide wrote: »

I was not saying you were closed minded when I said you weren't open to the truth. Trust me if that is what I intended to say, I would have just said that from the beginning.

Secondly, don't tell me I haven't been here long enough because I have and there is no "decline" at least not because of BH. If your so worried about fast lvling stoping blaming BH and look at oracles, hyper exp stones, and the many exp events we keep having. Those are the real culprit. And anyone who would supposedly know how to lvl off BH learned from higher lvl, more experienced players ( no not from other noobs noobs >.>).

First, Oracles and Hyper stones have to be bought, one way or another, with actual money. Therefore, people who buy those things are supporting the game it self and they are paying to get special treatment, such as faster leveling. Yes, they deserve it. If someone wants to pay $300 just to reach the high levels, by all means let them, its their money and whatever they pay for, they deserve. BH however has no cost to it. Any repair/pot costs can be compensated by drops from mobs/bosses inside easily. It is free exp and it gives it out at such excessive amounts for such a short amount of time spent and little to no effort or cost.

Second, yes I will say you haven't been here long enough. I, as well as others such as Micheal_Dark, have seen a decline in the skill of players since the inception of BH. Correlation there leads to a supported idea that BH does in fact cause this. Hypers were implemented at the same time as the newer BH system, so they may have played a part. However, most players do not use them during the lower levels, but during the higher levels. Those that do, we can't get a statistic on. However, we can pretty much assume everyone does BH.

You can also correlate BH with the increased number of players who will wear gear 20-40 levels below their own, thinking it is good. No joke, I've seen 6x players in TT who were wearing their rank I gear.

Obviously, you don't see these problems the way others of us have. When a Cleric who is 6x says purify is useless, something is wrong. When you see a Barb say "I do more damage in human form, so I can hold aggro better," you know something is wrong. Yes, there are more people in this game now than before. However, back then I never saw these kinds of people, and if I did it was extremely rare. This is common place now.

And no one that I know of can lvl straight off BH, I'm not saying its impossible but I really don't see it being that effective. At 57 I'm lucky if I even get 20-50% from BH and that's with it stacked.

It's actually quite easy. I've seen it several times on this forum, as well as factions I have been in, that players will log on, do BH, and log off. Yes, it is possible, and it shouldn't be. I understand, people have lives outside of the game, they should and need to. However, BH has allowed these people to get to high levels quickly and never learn their class they way it should. They learn how to play in a squad, but BH and TT are two completely different animals.

Just to reinforce, I was AoE grinding on the poison mobs on Nameless Isle. A Cleric came up to me and asked how I was managing to do it. When I told him I was using Ironheart and Purify, he said, "oh, is that what that (Purify) is for?" He had a TT90 magic sword.

[/QUOTE]Also, BH isn't meant to be on par with grinding, if you do that people won't use BH. Why, because they could just go grind. I'm sorry but I detect a hint of jealousy in that idea quite possibly.[/QUOTE]

You still don't get it. BH isn't on par with grinding, and that is part of the problem. Players find no need to grind at all because they get more than enough exp from BH to say "I don't need to do anymore." Zhen is a lost method because it is a waste of time compared to BH. Zhenning though requires more teamwork than a BH does, with the exception of when **** hits the fan. However, most of the time players don't know what to do in that situation, and the squad wipes. I can't tell you how many times walkers in BH51 have caused a wipe of Fush or Rank just because everyone is too scared to go over and keep them off the squad. The only time they don't cause wipes in my squads is either when a player who knows what they are doing takes control, or when I'm on my Assassin.

I would also ask you to stop devaluing mine and other peoples opinion by saying we haven't been around to see this supposed trouble. Like we're some how blind to what has or is going on in game. Believe it or not suggesting something like that in a discussion is an insult which is unfair as I have not insulted you, at least not intentionally seeing as you misunderstood what I said about not being open to the truth. Bringing that up again let me explain what I did mean: what I meant by that was well like what you did with this last post. You criticize and devalue my opinion by basically implying I don't agree with you because "I haven't been here long enough".

I'm telling you what others who have been here as long as I would tell you. I'm telling you the same thing I tell Yulk every time he says something that he is likely to get flamed for. Players who are more experienced and have been around longer are seeing these things. I've seen the steady increase in players who have little to no skill with their class in the higher levels, and it has been on the rise since the inception of BH.

Now, am I insulting you by saying you haven't been here as long? No. Drawing on real life comparisons, as you seem to be fond of them. Let's assume I am working for company X for a year, and you come on a year after me. After I have been there for two years and you for one, I might say "this company is going down hill, has been for a while now." You then say, "no it isn't, it's actually better than my last job." Is it an insult if I say that because you haven't worked there during the time I have, I probably have seen more within the company to show that it's overall quality is in decline? No, it's a simple fact I have seen more in company X than you have, so I can make a better judgment of whether it has or hasn't been on the down slope.

If you feel insulted by it, I'm sorry, I don't mean for you to. If you feel I have devalued your opinion, don't, because I still find it of value, the same with everyone else. I've said several times, the OP is subject to change based on the community desire, not mine, so if I saw forty people come in here and agree with you, while even thirty agreed with me, I'd just as well say "well, I don't agree with you, I still think it needs to be changed, but obviously enough people feel it is better the way it is." I value your opinion as much as anyone else, and probably more than I value my own because I realize I am biased towards my own.

However, it's true nonetheless that you haven't been around to see the skill level of players during the time I was. You don't have as much experience in this game to compare. Again, this is not an insult, it's simply a statement of fact. It does not mean you are a bad person, it does not mean you don't have any points in any arguments you make. It simply means I have seen things you have not, so perhaps you could lend credit to that.

And regardless you still ignore the fact no one except you wants it changed there are people who have posted who have been here longer then me and still don't want changes. So don't tell me I ain't seen the decline. That don't sound open minded to mine or anyone eases opinion who disagrees with you now does it? And no I'm not calling you closed minded here either I am on the other hand saying your behaving like it.

Did I not see on page 5 that others agreed fast leveling, including BH, was a problem? Did you maybe miss them in your discussion with me? Either way, it shows other people do agree that BH is a problem. Even our young Yulk seems to think so, although I don't know how much credit that really lends. Look at him, he levels possibly the slowest I've ever seen anyone do, even before at CB, but he is at least going to learn his class very well and be proficient at it. I don't agree with staying at one level until all of your skills are maxed as much as they can be, but if he does that, more power to him.

I have before this game been on a much harder mmo one where I said people got there wish the insane amount of exp people got from quests for the similar feature got cut down just like everyone wanted and they found out the grass ain't always greener on the other side. You need to think of what everyone wants not just your self, not just the high lvls who think BH causes fast lvling completely ignoring even faster lvling options available to players, such as oracles, hyper stones and exp events, or crazy stone for that matter. Also any of the supposed bad noob players have you ever asked them how they lvled up? If not how can you imply they misused BH when you don't know that, considering the other possibilities I mentioned? Since exp events, hyper stones, esetoricas have been available there are spikes in lvling even I can see it, since these have been around people lvl in the blink of an eye. So why do you ignore the real problem? Especially when you say you like BH?

I'm not thinking about myself, and I'm not thinking about other higher levels either. If anything, this hurts us just as much because when we decide to roll an alt, we can't level as quickly. Chances are when a new server comes out, I'll switch to that one. I will have to start all over, from the beginning, getting my character back up to the higher levels, getting all of my gear, all of my coin, everything the hard way, by farming it. If I were thinking about myself, I wouldn't want a change to BH as it helps me get by all the boring grinding I'd have to subject myself to.

I'm thinking about the newer players, the ones who do not learn their class until it is too late. Ask any of those four on a couple pages back, they will tell you the decline they have seen.

I hear your reasons but your missing the real culprit, changing BH won't get rid of the other (more effective) methods that make people lvl way faster then BH.

You are right, it won't get rid of Oracles or Hypers. However, fewer people use those than those who use BH. Like I said before, if a person wants to buy their levels with money, let them. They deserve whatever it is they decide to buy. I don't mind, they help support the game. As I said though, BH is free exp. You want to see a real difference between that and grinding? Die twice during a BH, you are still in the green for exp. Die twice while grinding for 2 hours, unless you are extremely efficient at it, you have lost exp (with the exception of having a Cleric with a good Revive level comes to save you). So, if you keep dying and dying while grinding, you will start to learn your class better because you want to actually level. With BH, almost always you will not lose exp, you will still gain it. So who will really care if they die, they aren't being hurt by it.

Also, how fast someone lvls should be something someone decides themselves not you because its to fast or not fair. Such things shouldn't be up to you or me, because that infringes on another players right to lvl how they what with whatever method they want. How would you like it if a noob complained you lvl to slow and said grinding should be outlawed? (not that such a thing would happen let alone if it did actually succeed) Do they really have the right to tell you what methods to use to lvl? or how fast you should do it? No. So you shouldn't try to have the same control of others methods and speed of lvling.

You are so right, only the person playing should decide how fast they level. Hey, GM! I want to get 27 levels on my Assassin the next time I log on and do my BH. It's me playing, so I should be the decider in when I reach 105, not you!

I'll admit, its quite heavy on the sarcasm spectrum, but I hope I'm making a point clear to you. You are saying a player should be able to level at a decent speed with whatever method. However, what about the player who can't afford to charge zen, but likes to grind? Well, he is basically screwed and has to do BH to level quickly like he wants. The person (like me) who likes to do instances all day long but still be able to level, he can do BH and be happy.

Like I said, I'm not trying to punish players who like BH. I want players to slow down the leveling and learn their class better. With such, players who like to grind and can't afford Hypers can have a fair chance if BH is on par. If you really believed that it should be fair to each player on how fast they level based on their personal method, you wouldn't disagree that BH is unfair to the grinder who can't afford Hypers.

Changes to BH won't get rid of noobs, noobs need Patience and understanding and do be taught to mostly do their quests, to know what skills they need, what the class is supposed to do in TW etc. Some people won't learn these things on there on, especially when it comes to tips and tricks of tanking and how to run an fb or instance. It's helpful to have someone apprentice you and teach you some things.

Honestly, I'd agree with an "apprenticeship program" as such. I think it would be great. However, most players don't learn from theory, they learn from practical use. As an example, again from real life, Judo. You can learn all the moves, all the tricks and all the escapes, but theory has no use. Until you apply these in a real situations which constantly changes, you cannot learn how to compete. If I ask my instructor "but what if I'm in this position, can I do this?" He will not just say yes or no, he will put me in that position and tell me to try it. If I'm in a competition though, he can't be up there telling me what to do when it matters, I have to use what I know and adapt.

Also, just deal with the fact their will always be noobs both low and high lvl ones. PWE will not do anything that would scare even some of their player base away (least not the paying one *shrugs*). So you can either train the noobs and try to eradicate them or you can ignore their needs completely and just deal with their existence. I will also note there are more players now then there used to be So yes back when the game was new or back when it was closed beta people probably had more skill but its not the way they lvl now, its the change in the amount of players. There are significantly more players now then there used to be and that is inevitably going to effect skill lvl of players as there twice as many new people.

There were also a lot more players a few months before the BH system than at the start, but you still saw the skill level roughly the same. It was only a few months after those who started with BH that you could see a slow decline in the skill of players. Looking back now, I see the decline was very steadily going down, and still is.

Some players don't just can't be taught, they have to learn on their own. I can't count how many times I've told other Assassins "Shadow Escape to reset the mob's aggro on you." I've seen many Assassins who I would resurrect after they stole aggro from a boss and told them "if the boss aggro's you, Shadow Escape so it loses aggro on you." Still, they don't listen.

An example not related to classes, but rather a faction, showing that some players can't be taught, is when the faction leader of Anima+ decided to bid on a land. I had told him several times over that the faction did not have nearly enough high level players to do a TW, and in fact if we went, it would take about 5 minutes if that to destroy our crystal without ever getting a hit on theirs. I have a feeling he will have to learn that the hard way eventually, because he didn't listen to me when I told him 75 level 3x and 4x players with 3 5x and 2 7x players could not beat 50+ level 7x+ characters in TW. You can't teach some players, they just have to learn it the hard way. I know there will always be low skilled players, it would be pretty ignorant not to. However, there were never so many within the population before levels were just given out.

Now that I have finished replying to your post, just note I've gone back over this reply to try to not make you feel insulted. Honestly, I don't ever wish for someone to feel insulted by what I say. Well, sometimes I do, but when I do I always make sure there is no room for error that it is what I intend. Back to the point though, know that I don't want you to feel insulted.

Just as well, if I have been mistaken about you insulting me, you'll have to forgive me, written words do not always have a pleasing effect unless accompanied with the expressions shown in verbal and physical communication. However, I always assume the worst, as it is better to apologize for what you misinterpret than to foolishly think someone respects you when in fact they don't. That said, should you reply to this (which I think and hope you will, for the sake of coming to an agreement of some sorts), I ask you to just say that you, like me, do not wish to make any insults. At least this way, our posts towards each other may take on a more passive energy.

Paramedic - Dreamweaver · July 2010

nobody wine bh29-59 (maybe 59 now because now u can have 3 bosses there)

anyway, 29-59 should be enough to learn basics of behavor in squad, for those willing to learn at least.

imo main prob is power level, -20lvl instances and too much exp reward

if u can be 70lvl in 2 weeks then how can u learn anything? By visiting instance 3-5 times and putting char on follow? =/

then at 70+ ppl wine BHs and miss lesson again..

as result u get bunch of frustrated high lvls who just rage quit after a while. sad b:bye

Myai - Heavens Tear · July 2010

How I think the BH system should be:

- You can only get 1 per day
- They're not stackable, can't have more than one BH quest in your quest log
- People that aren't within the BH level range can't be in the squad or no one gets the credit Ex: if a level 39- or 50+ is in a squad doing BH39 none of the 40-49 players that have the BH quest will get credit.
- The BHs can't be wined
- The bosses are currently too easy but that what you're suggesting seems to hard. I don't think a level 40(maybe not even a lvl 49) barb would be able to stay alive with only one cleric healing him while he tanks Wyvern. If he can't then the squad will be forced to have more clerics and less room for DDs. It's already hard enough to find clerics for BHs, it'll be even harder if BHs start requiring 2-3 per squad. And with your system (and mine) a higher level cleric can't help either.
Which leads me to think that this is the wisest pairing of levels and instances:
40-49 - BH39
50-59 - BH51
60-69 - BH59
70-79 - BH69/70
80-89 - BH79
90-99 - BH89 (Hell boss or Heaven boss)
100-105 - BH99
- Rewards for BH39-89 receiving the same amount of EXP as the current BH II
- Rewards for BH99 should get the same reward as the current BH I and the BH II (Or just the BH II reward)

I think that's it for what I think should be changed...
I'm not saying my system is better than yours, just that I'd personally rather have it this way.

b:bye

Sheikah - Raging Tide · July 2010

ACLucius - Archosaur wrote: »

First, Oracles and Hyper stones have to be bought, one way or another, with actual money. Therefore, people who buy those things are supporting the game it self and they are paying to get special treatment, such as faster leveling. Yes, they deserve it. If someone wants to pay $300 just to reach the high levels, by all means let them, its their money and whatever they pay for, they deserve. BH however has no cost to it. Any repair/pot costs can be compensated by drops from mobs/bosses inside easily. It is free exp and it gives it out at such excessive amounts for such a short amount of time spent and little to no effort or cost.

Second, yes I will say you haven't been here long enough. I, as well as others such as Micheal_Dark, have seen a decline in the skill of players since the inception of BH. Correlation there leads to a supported idea that BH does in fact cause this. Hypers were implemented at the same time as the newer BH system, so they may have played a part. However, most players do not use them during the lower levels, but during the higher levels. Those that do, we can't get a statistic on. However, we can pretty much assume everyone does BH.

You can also correlate BH with the increased number of players who will wear gear 20-40 levels below their own, thinking it is good. No joke, I've seen 6x players in TT who were wearing their rank I gear.

Obviously, you don't see these problems the way others of us have. When a Cleric who is 6x says purify is useless, something is wrong. When you see a Barb say "I do more damage in human form, so I can hold aggro better," you know something is wrong. Yes, there are more people in this game now than before. However, back then I never saw these kinds of people, and if I did it was extremely rare. This is common place now.

It's actually quite easy. I've seen it several times on this forum, as well as factions I have been in, that players will log on, do BH, and log off. Yes, it is possible, and it shouldn't be. I understand, people have lives outside of the game, they should and need to. However, BH has allowed these people to get to high levels quickly and never learn their class they way it should. They learn how to play in a squad, but BH and TT are two completely different animals.

Just to reinforce, I was AoE grinding on the poison mobs on Nameless Isle. A Cleric came up to me and asked how I was managing to do it. When I told him I was using Ironheart and Purify, he said, "oh, is that what that (Purify) is for?" He had a TT90 magic sword.

Also, BH isn't meant to be on par with grinding, if you do that people won't use BH. Why, because they could just go grind. I'm sorry but I detect a hint of jealousy in that idea quite possibly.

You still don't get it. BH isn't on par with grinding, and that is part of the problem. Players find no need to grind at all because they get more than enough exp from BH to say "I don't need to do anymore." Zhen is a lost method because it is a waste of time compared to BH. Zhenning though requires more teamwork than a BH does, with the exception of when **** hits the fan. However, most of the time players don't know what to do in that situation, and the squad wipes. I can't tell you how many times walkers in BH51 have caused a wipe of Fush or Rank just because everyone is too scared to go over and keep them off the squad. The only time they don't cause wipes in my squads is either when a player who knows what they are doing takes control, or when I'm on my Assassin.

I'm telling you what others who have been here as long as I would tell you. I'm telling you the same thing I tell Yulk every time he says something that he is likely to get flamed for. Players who are more experienced and have been around longer are seeing these things. I've seen the steady increase in players who have little to no skill with their class in the higher levels, and it has been on the rise since the inception of BH.

Now, am I insulting you by saying you haven't been here as long? No. Drawing on real life comparisons, as you seem to be fond of them. Let's assume I am working for company X for a year, and you come on a year after me. After I have been there for two years and you for one, I might say "this company is going down hill, has been for a while now." You then say, "no it isn't, it's actually better than my last job." Is it an insult if I say that because you haven't worked there during the time I have, I probably have seen more within the company to show that it's overall quality is in decline? No, it's a simple fact I have seen more in company X than you have, so I can make a better judgment of whether it has or hasn't been on the down slope.

If you feel insulted by it, I'm sorry, I don't mean for you to. If you feel I have devalued your opinion, don't, because I still find it of value, the same with everyone else. I've said several times, the OP is subject to change based on the community desire, not mine, so if I saw forty people come in here and agree with you, while even thirty agreed with me, I'd just as well say "well, I don't agree with you, I still think it needs to be changed, but obviously enough people feel it is better the way it is." I value your opinion as much as anyone else, and probably more than I value my own because I realize I am biased towards my own.

However, it's true nonetheless that you haven't been around to see the skill level of players during the time I was. You don't have as much experience in this game to compare. Again, this is not an insult, it's simply a statement of fact. It does not mean you are a bad person, it does not mean you don't have any points in any arguments you make. It simply means I have seen things you have not, so perhaps you could lend credit to that.

Did I not see on page 5 that others agreed fast leveling, including BH, was a problem? Did you maybe miss them in your discussion with me? Either way, it shows other people do agree that BH is a problem. Even our young Yulk seems to think so, although I don't know how much credit that really lends. Look at him, he levels possibly the slowest I've ever seen anyone do, even before at CB, but he is at least going to learn his class very well and be proficient at it. I don't agree with staying at one level until all of your skills are maxed as much as they can be, but if he does that, more power to him.

I'm not thinking about myself, and I'm not thinking about other higher levels either. If anything, this hurts us just as much because when we decide to roll an alt, we can't level as quickly. Chances are when a new server comes out, I'll switch to that one. I will have to start all over, from the beginning, getting my character back up to the higher levels, getting all of my gear, all of my coin, everything the hard way, by farming it. If I were thinking about myself, I wouldn't want a change to BH as it helps me get by all the boring grinding I'd have to subject myself to.

I'm thinking about the newer players, the ones who do not learn their class until it is too late. Ask any of those four on a couple pages back, they will tell you the decline they have seen.

You are right, it won't get rid of Oracles or Hypers. However, fewer people use those than those who use BH. Like I said before, if a person wants to buy their levels with money, let them. They deserve whatever it is they decide to buy. I don't mind, they help support the game. As I said though, BH is free exp. You want to see a real difference between that and grinding? Die twice during a BH, you are still in the green for exp. Die twice while grinding for 2 hours, unless you are extremely efficient at it, you have lost exp (with the exception of having a Cleric with a good Revive level comes to save you). So, if you keep dying and dying while grinding, you will start to learn your class better because you want to actually level. With BH, almost always you will not lose exp, you will still gain it. So who will really care if they die, they aren't being hurt by it.

You are so right, only the person playing should decide how fast they level. Hey, GM! I want to get 27 levels on my Assassin the next time I log on and do my BH. It's me playing, so I should be the decider in when I reach 105, not you!

I'll admit, its quite heavy on the sarcasm spectrum, but I hope I'm making a point clear to you. You are saying a player should be able to level at a decent speed with whatever method. However, what about the player who can't afford to charge zen, but likes to grind? Well, he is basically screwed and has to do BH to level quickly like he wants. The person (like me) who likes to do instances all day long but still be able to level, he can do BH and be happy.

Like I said, I'm not trying to punish players who like BH. I want players to slow down the leveling and learn their class better. With such, players who like to grind and can't afford Hypers can have a fair chance if BH is on par. If you really believed that it should be fair to each player on how fast they level based on their personal method, you wouldn't disagree that BH is unfair to the grinder who can't afford Hypers.

Honestly, I'd agree with an "apprenticeship program" as such. I think it would be great. However, most players don't learn from theory, they learn from practical use. As an example, again from real life, Judo. You can learn all the moves, all the tricks and all the escapes, but theory has no use. Until you apply these in a real situations which constantly changes, you cannot learn how to compete. If I ask my instructor "but what if I'm in this position, can I do this?" He will not just say yes or no, he will put me in that position and tell me to try it. If I'm in a competition though, he can't be up there telling me what to do when it matters, I have to use what I know and adapt.

There were also a lot more players a few months before the BH system than at the start, but you still saw the skill level roughly the same. It was only a few months after those who started with BH that you could see a slow decline in the skill of players. Looking back now, I see the decline was very steadily going down, and still is.

Some players don't just can't be taught, they have to learn on their own. I can't count how many times I've told other Assassins "Shadow Escape to reset the mob's aggro on you." I've seen many Assassins who I would resurrect after they stole aggro from a boss and told them "if the boss aggro's you, Shadow Escape so it loses aggro on you." Still, they don't listen.

An example not related to classes, but rather a faction, showing that some players can't be taught, is when the faction leader of Anima+ decided to bid on a land. I had told him several times over that the faction did not have nearly enough high level players to do a TW, and in fact if we went, it would take about 5 minutes if that to destroy our crystal without ever getting a hit on theirs. I have a feeling he will have to learn that the hard way eventually, because he didn't listen to me when I told him 75 level 3x and 4x players with 3 5x and 2 7x players could not beat 50+ level 7x+ characters in TW. You can't teach some players, they just have to learn it the hard way. I know there will always be low skilled players, it would be pretty ignorant not to. However, there were never so many within the population before levels were just given out.

Now that I have finished replying to your post, just note I've gone back over this reply to try to not make you feel insulted. Honestly, I don't ever wish for someone to feel insulted by what I say. Well, sometimes I do, but when I do I always make sure there is no room for error that it is what I intend. Back to the point though, know that I don't want you to feel insulted.

Just as well, if I have been mistaken about you insulting me, you'll have to forgive me, written words do not always have a pleasing effect unless accompanied with the expressions shown in verbal and physical communication. However, I always assume the worst, as it is better to apologize for what you misinterpret than to foolishly think someone respects you when in fact they don't. That said, should you reply to this (which I think and hope you will, for the sake of coming to an agreement of some sorts), I ask you to just say that you, like me, do not wish to make any insults. At least this way, our posts towards each other may take on a more passive energy.

1.I was going to comment on Michael_Darks behavior to the other posters who said BH shouldn't be changed but I think I shall refrain. I will still state that from the behavior I saw in those posts he's not a reliable source to give on whether there is or isn't a decline in skill as I don't like how he responded to the other posters.

2.And your job comparison doesn't work, 1. because anyone applying for a job would do research and know where the company stands before applying to work there. 2. The response that its better "then my last job" doesn't really address any decline in the company. Its not a good defense for there being nothing wrong and there would be signs of decline. Even for someone that hasn't been there very long, as anyone with any skills of perception would be able to detect something. They may not get the full picture but that doesn't me they don't get most of it, nor enough to make a sound judgment or response about the state of said company. And in rl the person most likely to get a job is the person with good communication and people skills, not necessarily the one with more experience. And x amount of years does not always= experience or knowledge any more then it does in rl.

3.I never said there wasn't noobs, I never said fast lvling and BH doesn't contribute in some cases, but I disagree with being enough of the cause to need changed or at least to the degree you suggest.

4.I also never said BH was on par with grinding in contrast I said "it shouldn't be on par with it, ever". And Its not unfair to someone who likes to grind to have to lvl slower, 1. because they know the consequences of liking/choosing that method. I have grinded and no it doesn't produce the fast results I'd like but in the other game I played (and I think still in this one) if you want to get any where some times you have to do it whether you want to or like doing it or not. I hate grinding and as someone who gets bored and distracted quite easy its not the easiest task for me. But, I worked through it and I don't begrudge those who can find a way to lvl fast off of BH nor do I want in on par with grinding.

Its a persons choice/and right to choose their method and speed lvling knowing the pros and cons of each.

5.Its a double standard to say its ok for a cashshopper to lvl fast because they paid but wrong for someone to do it for free because they can't afford cashshop items. Why should I be denied the same privileges because I can't pay? I deserve it just as much if not more then the cashshopper. Money shouldn't grant special privileges, especially when this game is supposed to be free.

If I give you an expensive, inexpensive or even homemade gift do you deserve it any less because you didn't buy it off me? No, of course not. And yet its ok for a cashshopper who more then likely is a kid spending is parents money which he more then likely didn't earn in any way to lvl fast?

Both groups should either have to grind or should if one gets to lvl fast so should the other, its only fair. Free players support the game in their own way, they make their contributions too so they should not be denied privileges. Also, more people cashshop then you realize.

6. I also never implied that in an apprentice system the higher lvls would just teach the newer people by saying: "this is how you do this, this and this". My thoughts for it would be they not only tell- but show/demonstrate, tell, and have the person do it them selves in a controlled setting. Much like what you said about Judo. I realize not everyone can learn the first time (or ever) and that its easier to learn by trying something ones self (though people have different learning styles: some learn better by doing, some seeing and others hearing, not that they don't still use a combination of those three but people tend to have more success with a certain one of those- example: I myself learn by watching and doing better then being told what to do, my sis is on the other hand learns better by hearing and I don't know the second thing ). as well as some learn slower then others and need something shown or told to them several times before they get it. Believe me I have more experience with that, then you know.

7. I know some others agreed with you, I have read every single post since before and after I started posting here. And I never said "no one" agreed with you, I have been saying "most" don't seem to agree with you. That is quite different from you implying I missed posts and that I thought no one AT ALL agreed with you.

And I will state I have NEVER meant to insult you. I do on the other hand think I have more experience then you give me credit for. You seem to be under the impression I haven't heard the complaints about BH before. I've heard people complain about BH, I've heard people complain about fast lvling and noobs, etc. I played another mmo for a LONG time before this one and the complaint and reasoning's are the same. This is nothing new trust me. The game I used to play noobs ran rampant and higer lvls complained like crazy (but the higher lvls also had a bad habit of looking down on lower lvls like they were some kind of Gods). And the only way you could lvl fast was if you had a higher lvl friend who would plvl you and that was not done for well the same supposed reasons for BH. And there were as I said before just as many noobs as there are in PW right now and there really was no way to skip through lvls. In other words I've heard these arguments before and they are (no offense intended here) just as absurd as they were there.

I respect your opinion and I can assure you of one characteristic of mine: If I didn't mean it, I wouldn't say it. (though I also have a bad habit of speaking opinions of things before actually having time to think over everything and make my true final opinions, in other words I need time to think on things before I actually knowing what my final opinions and conclusions are but I tend to out of feeling rushed, say things as I feel about a subject at the time of first hearing the subject- even more plainly I talk out of the spur of the moment with out having thought everything over^^' ). And I can come off harsher then intended as I am also quite blunt but I mean everything I say in a kind way even when it doesn't sound like it. As you can see in my l paragraph above this one my opinions in other games have been demeaned by higher lvls who think they are "the all powerful Oz", so yes I find the whole idea of "I've been here longer so I know more then you" just as insulting as the concept of "I'm higher lvl so I know more. no wait I mean I know everything". I like to give everyone equal value and I think such things causes separation as well as the temptation to look down on someone else or not give them a fair shot at getting the hands on experience they need and people complain they don't have.

So, I will say I respect you, I have nothing against you and I know how to agree to disagree. I also applaud you for discussing this topic with me with out getting childish and flaming my personal character and such (saying I'm a bad person or other things like that)

As most people I discuss and debate with tend to do when they can't get me to give into them (for some reason a lot of people think that doing that means they automatically when the discussion/argument/debate

Don't know why).

Disclaimer: if there is any seeming harshness, rudeness or anything offensive what so ever in this post its completely unintentional, and I apologize here in advance so there are no misunderstandings (hopefully).

Yulk - Heavens Tear · July 2010

Paramedic - Dreamweaver wrote: »

nobody wine bh29-59 (maybe 59 now because now u can have 3 bosses there)

anyway, 29-59 should be enough to learn basics of behavor in squad, for those willing to learn at least.

imo main prob is power level, -20lvl instances and too much exp reward

if u can be 70lvl in 2 weeks then how can u learn anything? By visiting instance 3-5 times and putting char on follow? =/

then at 70+ ppl wine BHs and miss lesson again..

as result u get bunch of frustrated high lvls who just rage quit after a while. sad b:bye

No, your wrong, 29-39 does NOT teach you at all, I done those BHs before many times so sick of it being boring. It is not hard to auto attack elite mobs to death that is 10-20 levels lower than you.

29 is a joke, all you need is a veno with at least a pet with decent hp and physical defense and a ranged pet with good m.def which can solo the BH with just pet heal. Or a tank with at least 3k HP or 3k earth defense with a cleric. Wizards and barbs can easily drop Qingzi with cleric with 3 stacked IH buffs and thats it. DDs aren't really needed for Qingzi and he doesn't AOE

39 is a bigger joke, which can easily be soloed, I bet at 59, my barb can solo the whole entire BH. Venoes can solo the whole entire BH as well. You don't need a squad for BH39 unless you really suck or don't want to use a few pots. My barb tanked Farren serenity with 4+ mobs on him and murder them all.

My barb tanked FB51, with other level 50+ and that was a challenge, and yes succeeded all the times but, I know BH51 would become a joke as well. Unless they fail that hard. I would not be surprised if the other BHs are easy as well

@sheika the OP is right, BH was too abusive because of exp gain, if BHs aren't to blame, then why people are spamming BHs? Can you explain why? And why look at people who used to spam oracles? I gotten 19 oracles for free from some random oracle person, which it only gives him 0.2% from wicked pirates, I used it for the money and spirit. I seen more people do BHs than doing oracles. Even crazy stone which is famous, you don't do anything, it is obviously abusive. 3x BH is the new power level, stop blaming on oracles that was only abused from last year, stop beating around the bush and bringing up the past. Hyper exp stones (your right about that) and 3x BHs are the new and improved way of power leveling.

Legases - Lost City · July 2010

its very well thoughout post ill give you that, but bh isnt a quest we do to get gear, we do it to lvl in fact its pretty much the only real way to lvl after 65 unless u CS (not including frost 85-100). cool idea for maybe a seperate daily all together =]

Sheikah - Raging Tide · July 2010

Yulk - Heavens Tear wrote: »

@sheika the OP is right, BH was too abusive because of exp gain, if BHs aren't to blame, then why people are spamming BHs? Can you explain why? And why look at people who used to spam oracles? I gotten 19 oracles for free from some random oracle person, which it only gives him 0.2% from wicked pirates, I used it for the money and spirit. I seen more people do BHs than doing oracles. Even crazy stone which is famous, you don't do anything, it is obviously abusive. 3x BH is the new power level, stop blaming on oracles that was only abused from last year, stop beating around the bush and bringing up the past. Hyper exp stones (your right about that) and 3x BHs are the new and improved way of power leveling.

One, you made a mistake in addressing me. Why? Because as I have already stated to others as well as the OP my opinion STANDS, I have reasons for my opinion and if you honestly think I'll be that easily swayed by your joke of a post your completely wrong. BH ain't that good and is not on par with plvling. With plvling you stand there while someone else fights that is NOT the way BH is run, so don't compare the two.
People can't exactly "spam" BH you can do it 3 times hardly what I would call spamming, as well as its only effective to lvl fast at low lvls the higher you go the less that exp does, regardless if it goes up or not.

Crazy stone at my lvl gives 10% of my exp needed to lvl, that ain't that great hardly exp abuse -.-

Also, training esotericas are still around you know and we just had a couple weeks ago a 2X exp event, if a person works really hard during one of those they can easily get 5 or more lvls in that 2 week time (and that's starting from about the 40-50ish range, imagine how much a lower lvl could do in that time).

Forgive me for being harsh but saying "you know the OP is right" is not going to change my opinion. So for you to think your going to magically change it with that sentence and supposed harsh rebuke to my "error" is some what comical as well as requiring a bit of harshness.

Grippieluver - Lost City · July 2010

I think we should all chill before a gm/mod steps in... lol.. anyways, there's no need to change BH it's fine the way it is... honestly

Yulk - Heavens Tear · July 2010

Sheikah - Raging Tide wrote: »

One, you made a mistake in addressing me. Why? Because as I have already stated to others as well as the OP my opinion STANDS, I have reasons for my opinion and if you honestly think I'll be that easily swayed by your joke of a post your completely wrong. BH ain't that good and is not on par with plvling. With plvling you stand there while someone else fights that is NOT the way BH is run, so don't compare the two.
People can't exactly "spam" BH you can do it 3 times hardly what I would call spamming, as well as its only effective to lvl fast at low lvls the higher you go the less that exp does, regardless if it goes up or not.

Crazy stone at my lvl gives 10% of my exp needed to lvl, that ain't that great hardly exp abuse -.-

Also, training esotericas are still around you know and we just had a couple weeks ago a 2X exp event, if a person works really hard during one of those they can easily get 5 or more lvls in that 2 week time (and that's starting from about the 40-50ish range, imagine how much a lower lvl could do in that time).

Forgive me for being harsh but saying "you know the OP is right" is not going to change my opinion. So for you to think your going to magically change it with that sentence and supposed harsh rebuke to my "error" is some what comical as well as requiring a bit of harshness.

3 times seems like a spam, and yes you get less experience every stage, by a little bit less, even BH III have a ton more exp gain than using 3 oracles at once. The fact that you are killing a level 44 boss at level 58 seem such of a challenge to you? Regardless if you become familiar with instances or not. Having trouble with instances at your own level and DDs don't have to do anything in BHs, its just the tank and healer matters.

About power leveling... I been in squad with DDs that done nothing but spectate. It happened a few times when I was tanking and healer was healing but the job was done. A barb with no armor and no weapon was in BH in my squad and he was causing havoc to the squad, I was tanking for the squad, making him just a laughable barb and he got power leveled still. I still remember that assassin just standing still while I was only helping the veno tank everything.

What makes BH different from oracle and hyper exp stones?

Sheikah - Raging Tide · July 2010

Yulk - Heavens Tear wrote: »

3 times seems like a spam, and yes you get less experience every stage, by a little bit less, even BH III have a ton more exp gain than using 3 oracles at once. The fact that you are killing a level 44 boss at level 58 seem such of a challenge to you? Regardless if you become familiar with instances or not. Having trouble with instances at your own level and DDs don't have to do anything in BHs, its just the tank and healer matters.

About power leveling... I been in squad with DDs that done nothing but spectate. It happened a few times when I was tanking and healer was healing but the job was done. A barb with no armor and no weapon was in BH in my squad and he was causing havoc to the squad, I was tanking for the squad, making him just a laughable barb and he got power leveled still. I still remember that assassin just standing still while I was only helping the veno tank everything.

What makes BH different from oracle and hyper exp stones?

As I see your aren't going to listen, I'm not going to bring up any points to refute your post. Not because I can't but because I'm not going to spend time I could be doing something else arguing with you -.- It would be a waste of mine and your time as I have made my points known and have valid reason for my opinion. But, you obviously right or wrong aren't going to listen, so I'm not going to try its just pointless if you don't get it now you never will.

So you and I will have to agree to disagree and promise not to respond to each other anymore on this topic unless we absolutely have to. You can't change me and I can't change you we're just going to have to live with that.

ACLucius - Archosaur · July 2010

Sheikah - Raging Tide wrote: »

1.I was going to comment on Michael_Darks behavior to the other posters who said BH shouldn't be changed but I think I shall refrain. I will still state that from the behavior I saw in those posts he's not a reliable source to give on whether there is or isn't a decline in skill as I don't like how he responded to the other posters.

I agree he has a very harsh way of stating his opinion. Reminds me of a guy on the GunZ forums I often went head-to-head with. Still, he does know what he is talking about, and he has seen a lot more than most. So, I see him as a valuable resource for showing that there is a decline in skill.

2.And your job comparison doesn't work, 1. because anyone applying for a job would do research and know where the company stands before applying to work there. 2. The response that its better "then my last job" doesn't really address any decline in the company. Its not a good defense for there being nothing wrong and there would be signs of decline. Even for someone that hasn't been there very long, as anyone with any skills of perception would be able to detect something. They may not get the full picture but that doesn't me they don't get most of it, nor enough to make a sound judgment or response about the state of said company. And in rl the person most likely to get a job is the person with good communication and people skills, not necessarily the one with more experience. And x amount of years does not always= experience or knowledge any more then it does in rl.

It works, but I think you might be looking too much into it. You can do all the research you want into a company, but some things can only be seen on the inside of it. For example, at my previous job I had noticed some questionable practices going on, but they only started after I had been there for a while. People coming on after I had didn't see the problems with them that I had. Sometime after I had left, those practices were made public, the company suffered a fine and had a change in policy.

My point with it though is that people who have been in a company can see some of the inner workings that others can't. A person who comes onto this game can read all they want about it's history of gameplay and such, but they will not be able to notice any problems because they don't have the experience of it's history to depend on.

Also, how you get the job doesn't matter in this comparison, as we are just assuming you got it. It doesn't matter why, all that matters is that you got it. Obviously, we could take everything to a more literal sense, but then there could never be analogies made. Like I said, the point is I have seen some things within this game, being the decrease in skill level of the average player, that people who are newer than me either could not see, or would see on a much lesser level.

3.I never said there wasn't noobs, I never said fast lvling and BH doesn't contribute in some cases, but I disagree with being enough of the cause to need changed or at least to the degree you suggest.

And noobs are not created by "fast lvling" people can lvl fast and know what their doing pretty much everyone I have met since BH's creation know what their doing. Noob's are people who don't care to know what their doing. The kind of person that turns in to a noob can do BH (or any instance) over and over and over again and STILL not know what their doing. Why? because they don't really care whether they learn or not or whether their doing it right. I know tons of people that have lvled fast and know what their doing.

You've said noobs are created by people who don't care to learn their class. I can agree, but they don't need to care when all they have to do is BH to level, an instance that takes very little skill. By making it harder, you solve this because if they don't learn, they either get kicked or they get killed over and over. Less exp means that if they die, they cannot gain as much exp overall, and therefore their progress is slowed enough that they will learn.

Like you said in that quote, I too know a lot of people who play their class very well. However, the majority of players have a much lower skill level than players of a similar level did before BH. That is the major problem, and like I said, some players just can't be taught, they have to learn the hard way before they can become better players.

4.I also never said BH was on par with grinding in contrast I said "it shouldn't be on par with it, ever". And Its not unfair to someone who likes to grind to have to lvl slower, 1. because they know the consequences of liking/choosing that method. I have grinded and no it doesn't produce the fast results I'd like but in the other game I played (and I think still in this one) if you want to get any where some times you have to do it whether you want to or like doing it or not. I hate grinding and as someone who gets bored and distracted quite easy its not the easiest task for me. But, I worked through it and I don't begrudge those who can find a way to lvl fast off of BH nor do I want in on par with grinding.

All BH did was make grinding useless on a larger scale because it replaced it. Now, the grinders suffer because this new system forces them to play a way they don't like if they want to level fast. When I say BH needs to be on par with grinding, I don't mean that in one hour, a grinder should make as much exp as someone doing BH over the same time. I'm not asking for a 1:1 ratio, but right now it is more like 1:7 ratio. 1:2 or 1:3 would make grinding worth the effort and in my opinion, on par. If BH is made to be on par with grinding, both grinders and squaders can do what they like, while also decreasing the progress of players and increasing the difficulty of an instance. Now, if I can't convince you of both, that's fine, but one of them needs to happen at the very least. Either players need to have harder instances, or have less exp from BH. If I had to choose a preference, I'd go with making the instances harder.

Its a persons choice/and right to choose their method and speed lvling knowing the pros and cons of each.

Just the same then, if BH were to be made useless in the greater eye because of a decrease in exp and an increase in difficulty, it just means a person has to know that doing BH is going to have a harder time leveling. Now, like I said, I'm not for this, I like BH being worth more than grinding in terms of exp. I just think it is too much for such a simple task.

5.Its a double standard to say its ok for a cashshopper to lvl fast because they paid but wrong for someone to do it for free because they can't afford cashshop items. Why should I be denied the same privileges because I can't pay? I deserve it just as much if not more then the cashshopper. Money shouldn't grant special privileges, especially when this game is supposed to be free.

It's not a double standard. It's only a double standard if the two groups are in the same standard to begin with. Players who play for free are not putting anything of value into the game besides their time, but that is the same across the board to all players. People who pay with real money to play the game are in a separate standard. They are given the bonus of leveling faster because they are paying for it with money.

If I give you an expensive, inexpensive or even homemade gift do you deserve it any less because you didn't buy it off me? No, of course not. And yet its ok for a cashshopper who more then likely is a kid spending is parents money which he more then likely didn't earn in any way to lvl fast?

If you were to just give me a random gift, I'd be grateful. However, you haven't provided a context of why I have received it for it to really compare to this. Let's say you were building a garage and wanted help from others to get it done. I came over and did the acceptable minimum of work. Another person came over and went above and beyond what they needed to in order to help you. Should I receive a gift just as good as theirs? No, because I didn't do a lot, I just did what you asked and left. The other person though did what you asked, as well as more. If you gave me a fruit basket as a gift, give that other person a prime rib roast.

Yes, a kid spending his/her parents' money is likely what it is. However, in that case, it is the parents who are paying for their child to have the added benefits the cash shop brings. It is simply a transference of the bonus.

Both groups should either have to grind or should if one gets to lvl fast so should the other, its only fair. Free players support the game in their own way, they make their contributions too so they should not be denied privileges. Also, more people cashshop then you realize.

Yes, it is only fair that people who play completely free be able to level at the same rate. However, the difference is that both groups shouldn't have to do one of the other, they should get to do what they want and level all the same. Ideally, that would be the preference of everyone, rather than either group being forced to do something they don't like in order to level as quickly.

A lot of people do cash shop, and it is proven by the constant revival and renewal of packs. They are always in there because people buy them a lot. However, I doubt even more than 60% of the people in this game spend more on this than they would on a few games they could pick up at a store. I think probably about 25% of the players spend a consistent amount over their career on this game. However, the other 75% I think just charge once or twice, and then are done, especially since they at that time have a lot of in game money and have a method of making a lot of in game money.

6. I also never implied that in an apprentice system the higher lvls would just teach the newer people by saying: "this is how you do this, this and this". My thoughts for it would be they not only tell- but show/demonstrate, tell, and have the person do it them selves in a controlled setting. Much like what you said about Judo. I realize not everyone can learn the first time (or ever) and that its easier to learn by trying something ones self (though people have different learning styles: some learn better by doing, some seeing and others hearing, not that they don't still use a combination of those three but people tend to have more success with a certain one of those- example: I myself learn by watching and doing better then being told what to do, my sis is on the other hand learns better by hearing and I don't know the second thing ). as well as some learn slower then others and need something shown or told to them several times before they get it. Believe me I have more experience with that, then you know.

Yes, but like I said, some people just can't learn from being told. I guess it is hard to relate Judo to this, but I'll try. Some situations I have found myself in Judo, I have had to make up what I need to do on the spot. Such as if all the standard joint locks and pins won't work, I have to come up with a new, unconventional means of doing so. I can't do that just by knowing what to do in the standard situation, or in a controlled setting. I have to use what I know about joint locks and pins (or skills in this game) and combine them or manipulate them into what fits such a unique situation. As an example, I have actually been choked out by my own foot in a randori (practice match), something which is completely unconventional and never happens. My opponent didn't do it because he knew a move to do it, he did it because at the time, it was necessary.

So, to take this example to the game, I've taken a very unconventional method and made it a common practice of mine to save squads from wipes. On my Assassin, I have Alpha Male on my genie. If something goes wrong and the Barb or Cleric dies, I will take aggro using it, and will use my speed skills to run the boss out of sight. If it is a boss I can stealth to reset, I will. If not, I just let him kill me. Now, I can almost guarantee not even 10% of the Assassin's out there in this game do that. It is something I can teach, sure, but I wasn't taught this. That is the skill level I am talking about us older players having in comparison to newer players. Most people would never combine skills in such a way to accomplish that goal. It's not because players are always bad, its because they haven't found themselves in enough varying circumstances to need to.

7. I know some others agreed with you, I have read every single post since before and after I started posting here. And I never said "no one" agreed with you, I have been saying "most" don't seem to agree with you. That is quite different from you implying I missed posts and that I thought no one AT ALL agreed with you.

And regardless you still ignore the fact no one except you wants it changed there are people who have posted who have been here longer then me and still don't want changes.

This is where I'm replying to. You did say no one wants it changed, but several people have said they do. It sounds to me as though you were saying no one agrees that BH should change. Now, perhaps you meant no one wants it changed to what my OP is, and that I could agree with. I doubted from the beginning anyone would, and if so I would have started to question the intellect of the community. However, people do want a change, and since most people don't even post on these forums on a regular basis, no one can say how many do or don't want a change. Unfortunately, not even 10% of the forum community will ever post on this thread, let alone read it. I can hope, but I don't find it likely. So, we will never find out whether most agree with me or with you on whether this needs to change. That is why I will base the end result of the OP on what people say in this thread. Before I can do that though, I need people making suggestions, going either way.

And I will state I have NEVER meant to insult you. I do on the other hand think I have more experience then you give me credit for. You seem to be under the impression I haven't heard the complaints about BH before. I've heard people complain about BH, I've heard people complain about fast lvling and noobs, etc. I played another mmo for a LONG time before this one and the complaint and reasoning's are the same. This is nothing new trust me. The game I used to play noobs ran rampant and higer lvls complained like crazy (but the higher lvls also had a bad habit of looking down on lower lvls like they were some kind of Gods). And the only way you could lvl fast was if you had a higher lvl friend who would plvl you and that was not done for well the same supposed reasons for BH. And there were as I said before just as many noobs as there are in PW right now and there really was no way to skip through lvls. In other words I've heard these arguments before and they are (no offense intended here) just as absurd as they were there.

Unfortunately, I have to disagree with this being the same as it is there. It is two different games, two different communities. On an extreme, compare the GunZ community to this, you will see this community is like utopia in comparison. There, you can't play without someone saying "noob" when you play a game. If you can't do all the moves there, you are considered a noob. If you decide you want to use a certain weapon, even if it is better. I'd like to go into better details on this, but unfortunately it's such a complex game it would only cause confusion to try to explain.

However, maybe I am not giving you enough credit for your experience. However, I think that the same could be said in reverse.

I respect your opinion and I can assure you of one characteristic of mine: If I didn't mean it, I wouldn't say it. (though I also have a bad habit of speaking opinions of things before actually having time to think over everything and make my true final opinions, in other words I need time to think on things before I actually knowing what my final opinions and conclusions are but I tend to out of feeling rushed, say things as I feel about a subject at the time of first hearing the subject- even more plainly I talk out of the spur of the moment with out having thought everything over^^' ). And I can come off harsher then intended as I am also quite blunt but I mean everything I say in a kind way even when it doesn't sound like it. As you can see in my l paragraph above this one my opinions in other games have been demeaned by higher lvls who think they are "the all powerful Oz", so yes I find the whole idea of "I've been here longer so I know more then you" just as insulting as the concept of "I'm higher lvl so I know more. no wait I mean I know everything". I like to give everyone equal value and I think such things causes separation as well as the temptation to look down on someone else or not give them a fair shot at getting the hands on experience they need and people complain they don't have.

Please don't think I am looking down on you for any lesser amount of experience. We were all newbies at one point, so I value someone based on how they play and how they change that when it is necessary. So, even if a person who plays a Barb thinks they do better holding aggro in human form, I look at them in higher regard if when I tell them they will hold it better in tiger, they listen. However, all I can judge you on in terms of your experience is, unfortunately, the length of time you have been here. Your opinion still is valuable to me. You've said you disagree with me, and that means that is one more person who thinks I am wrong. Unlike the electoral college, I find every vote matters, not just those within a certain circle.

So, I will say I respect you, I have nothing against you and I know how to agree to disagree. I also applaud you for discussing this topic with me with out getting childish and flaming my personal character and such (saying I'm a bad person or other things like that) As most people I discuss and debate with tend to do when they can't get me to give into them (for some reason a lot of people think that doing that means they automatically when the discussion/argument/debate Don't know why).

I seem to have the exact same problem with most people, and the appreciation goes both ways. Like I said though, I automatically assume someone is going to be insulting me. Now that we have an understanding of each other, I think we both can continue to discuss this in a civil manner. Hopefully, we will get more people to join us.

Also, just a tip since you said you tend to say things in a way you don't mean for it to come out. Long posts (like this) I will often spend over an hour just going back through it and revising. If I posted everything exactly as I had originally written it, I think I might actually sound like the Hitler of the forums. I don't always post right after a reply because I will sometimes just leave, come back and continue writing.

Sheikah - Raging Tide · July 2010

I agree he has a very harsh way of stating his opinion. Reminds me of a guy on the GunZ forums I often went head-to-head with. Still, he does know what he is talking about, and he has seen a lot more than most. So, I see him as a valuable resource for showing that there is a decline in skill.

Ok, Mchael_Dark isn't a reliable source because from what I gather from his posts he is: arrogant, rude, obnoxious, thinks he better then those who use other methods to lvl (so of course he going to agree with you), there by not a reliable source. In other words he seems to feel grinding makes him superior not to mention how long he's been here and he doesn't share your respect and kindness for the people who post here thereby by the "I'm better then you noob cause I did it old school" as I said before makes him unreliable because is attitude is going to make him agree with you as he all ready disproves of BH.

It works, but I think you might be looking too much into it. You can do all the research you want into a company, but some things can only be seen on the inside of it. For example, at my previous job I had noticed some questionable practices going on, but they only started after I had been there for a while. People coming on after I had didn't see the problems with them that I had. Sometime after I had left, those practices were made public, the company suffered a fine and had a change in policy.

My point with it though is that people who have been in a company can see some of the inner workings that others can't. A person who comes onto this game can read all they want about it's history of gameplay and such, but they will not be able to notice any problems because they don't have the experience of it's history to depend on.

Also, how you get the job doesn't matter in this comparison, as we are just assuming you got it. It doesn't matter why, all that matters is that you got it. Obviously, we could take everything to a more literal sense, but then there could never be analogies made. Like I said, the point is I have seen some things within this game, being the decrease in skill level of the average player, that people who are newer than me either could not see, or would see on a much lesser level.

That is not always true who sees what when is a matter of perception not un iron-clad rule hence why I corrected you analogy. I consider myself to be a very perceptive, logical and analytical person but I acknowledge I'm not the best and that there are others with these skills better then what I have.

And it is that perceptive, logical and analytical side of me that I'm trying to get you to see has let me see more of whats going on in the time I've been here, then you think. Because you label people with a certain amount of knowledge of the situation you think they really have based on how long they've been here.

You've said noobs are created by people who don't care to learn their class. I can agree, but they don't need to care when all they have to do is BH to level, an instance that takes very little skill. By making it harder, you solve this because if they don't learn, they either get kicked or they get killed over and over. Less exp means that if they die, they cannot gain as much exp overall, and therefore their progress is slowed enough that they will learn.

Like you said in that quote, I too know a lot of people who play their class very well. However, the majority of players have a much lower skill level than players of a similar level did before BH. That is the major problem, and like I said, some players just can't be taught, they have to learn the hard way before they can become better players.

Again your missing the fact that an average player doesn't nor more then likely will ever have the skills you think people have when it comes to BH. See you are a man of very good skill and so for you it is easy but speaking as someone who is good at games but not on the lvl you are I know what I'm talking about. I still have several video games I've been trying to beat since I was 10! And despite trying over and over and over I still can't beat them. Not because I'm bad at at video games but I only have so much skill, to be honest less then I would like and I've tried to improve and maybe with somethings have a little in my 11 years of playing video games, but my skill sadly is as good as its going to get I'm afraid, not because of lack of trying though.

So in other words its easy to you but I think there are quite a few or would disagree with you. That's where maybe having two types of BH would be effective those who find the current to easy could do that and those who think its hard could stay with current or try the harder out to test their skills.

All BH did was make grinding useless on a larger scale because it replaced it. Now, the grinders suffer because this new system forces them to play a way they don't like if they want to level fast. When I say BH needs to be on par with grinding, I don't mean that in one hour, a grinder should make as much exp as someone doing BH over the same time. I'm not asking for a 1:1 ratio, but right now it is more like 1:7 ratio. 1:2 or 1:3 would make grinding worth the effort and in my opinion, on par. If BH is made to be on par with grinding, both grinders and squaders can do what they like, while also decreasing the progress of players and increasing the difficulty of an instance. Now, if I can't convince you of both, that's fine, but one of them needs to happen at the very least. Either players need to have harder instances, or have less exp from BH. If I had to choose a preference, I'd go with making the instances harder.

Just the same then, if BH were to be made useless in the greater eye because of a decrease in exp and an increase in difficulty, it just means a person has to know that doing BH is going to have a harder time leveling. Now, like I said, I'm not for this, I like BH being worth more than grinding in terms of exp. I just think it is too much for such a simple task.

How does BH force grinders to play a way they don't like? Crazy stone can help boost their exp to make grinding a little faster. As well as if they like grinding so much they would still do it regardless and would be fine regardless there pace in lvling. I don't like grinding but I still grind and do quests on PWI BH doesn't replace anything for me. And lvl 50+ you don't get that much exp from it and there are quite a few high lvls in my faction (who have been playing for 2 or more years) who get bored of doing instances to lvl, like fc, TT, BH, etc because even with those its not that easy to lvl. Those who could really speed lvl off of BH are the 30-40ish range and BH don't start till 40 and at 40 you really don't even need as theres a certain quest chain that boosts ya to later 40's early 50s easily. So no one really unless there trying it out or were taught by a higher lvl to do it for lvling does BH straight at 40.

It's not a double standard. It's only a double standard if the two groups are in the same standard to begin with. Players who play for free are not putting anything of value into the game besides their time, but that is the same across the board to all players. People who pay with real money to play the game are in a separate standard. They are given the bonus of leveling faster because they are paying for it with money.

If you were to just give me a random gift, I'd be grateful. However, you haven't provided a context of why I have received it for it to really compare to this. Let's say you were building a garage and wanted help from others to get it done. I came over and did the acceptable minimum of work. Another person came over and went above and beyond what they needed to in order to help you. Should I receive a gift just as good as theirs? No, because I didn't do a lot, I just did what you asked and left. The other person though did what you asked, as well as more. If you gave me a fruit basket as a gift, give that other person a prime rib roast.

Yes, a kid spending his/her parents' money is likely what it is. However, in that case, it is the parents who are paying for their child to have the added benefits the cash shop brings. It is simply a transference of the bonus.

Yes, it is a double standard because your giving something they do or don't deserve because they have money. Also, if I was to get behind on bills because my bill company's decided they wanted more money and charged more then I could afford on propose so they could have my house. Do I deserve to lose my house? Do I deserve to be on the street because I have no money? Again No. I still have a right to a house. And in reality I shouldn't be deprived of shelter because of no money (of course this goes on all the time in rl, but there was once upon a time when houses couldn't be repossessed when someone owned something like a house it was there to keep, because they needed a place to live like everyone else).

And you've got my gift thing all wrong. There was no need to specify a reason why you got the gift because you didn't do anything. There was no working on a garage the gift is something I just decided to give you, either because you needed it, wanted it or I just decided I would. And you don't deserve it any less just because you didn't work for it or because you didn't buy it from me.

And I hate to tell you this but I would give people who do something out of the kindness of their heart the same gift regardless of how much each person worked. Not to cheat someone out a better reward but because the reward shouldn't matter, and because it again is discrimination. Both workers help was voluntary, both workers deserve the same reward. I don't play favoritism with people with money or time spent on something because the two parties rich or poor, working more hours or not are equal. You can say I'm being unfair by refusing to put distinction between two workers on a garage and refusing to give one a better reward best on his time. But, I'm not being unfair quite the opposite.

Yes, it is only fair that people who play completely free be able to level at the same rate. However, the difference is that both groups shouldn't have to do one of the other, they should get to do what they want and level all the same. Ideally, that would be the preference of everyone, rather than either group being forced to do something they don't like in order to level as quickly.

Problem is grinding is meant to be different from grinding in both experience of doing it and in the actual reward. And they don't have to choose one who the other you can do both and lvl at a decent but not excessive rate. Also people choose to do BH if they don't like it they don't have to do it. And again you want people to lvl the same off both but that isn't fair because the two things aren't meant to lvl you at the same rate. Its not just about preference of how to lvl. And no one if the exp is cut down or BH is made hard (at least in an excessive way) is going to do BH because for a lot of people doing an instance over and over to lvl gets tedious and boring and repetitive even now.

A lot of people do cash shop, and it is proven by the constant revival and renewal of packs. They are always in there because people buy them a lot. However, I doubt even more than 60% of the people in this game spend more on this than they would on a few games they could pick up at a store. I think probably about 25% of the players spend a consistent amount over their career on this game. However, the other 75% I think just charge once or twice, and then are done, especially since they at that time have a lot of in game money and have a method of making a lot of in game money.

I'm sorry but its more like 50% to 60% use cashshop, and that percent could easily go up to about 65%-70% or so if you add in the fact people can buy cashshop items in game which provides some of the same (if not all the same) privileges as direct cashshopping.

Yes, but like I said, some people just can't learn from being told. I guess it is hard to relate Judo to this, but I'll try. Some situations I have found myself in Judo, I have had to make up what I need to do on the spot. Such as if all the standard joint locks and pins won't work, I have to come up with a new, unconventional means of doing so. I can't do that just by knowing what to do in the standard situation, or in a controlled setting. I have to use what I know about joint locks and pins (or skills in this game) and combine them or manipulate them into what fits such a unique situation. As an example, I have actually been choked out by my own foot in a randori (practice match), something which is completely unconventional and never happens. My opponent didn't do it because he knew a move to do it, he did it because at the time, it was necessary.

So, to take this example to the game, I've taken a very unconventional method and made it a common practice of mine to save squads from wipes. On my Assassin, I have Alpha Male on my genie. If something goes wrong and the Barb or Cleric dies, I will take aggro using it, and will use my speed skills to run the boss out of sight. If it is a boss I can stealth to reset, I will. If not, I just let him kill me. Now, I can almost guarantee not even 10% of the Assassin's out there in this game do that. It is something I can teach, sure, but I wasn't taught this. That is the skill level I am talking about us older players having in comparison to newer players. Most people would never combine skills in such a way to accomplish that goal. It's not because players are always bad, its because they haven't found themselves in enough varying circumstances to need to.

And again I don't think people should just be told, I think they should also be shown and allowed to do it them selves at least a few times in a controlled setting (and by controlled setting I mean higer lvl taking a lower lvl that can get in say TT and showing them as the same time as telling them if possible, then doing TT again either directly after or at a time when the lower lvl is a bit higher and letting them try again a couple times with the higher lvl watching so as to be able to bale them out if absolutely necessary.

I took ballroom dance lessons for 5-6 years and the teacher every class would tell us what we were learning and how to do it. Then he would show and tell us at the same time and then he would have us to it ourselves and correct us as needed.

This is where I'm replying to. You did say no one wants it changed, but several people have said they do. It sounds to me as though you were saying no one agrees that BH should change. Now, perhaps you meant no one wants it changed to what my OP is, and that I could agree with. I doubted from the beginning anyone would, and if so I would have started to question the intellect of the community. However, people do want a change, and since most people don't even post on these forums on a regular basis, no one can say how many do or don't want a change. Unfortunately, not even 10% of the forum community will ever post on this thread, let alone read it. I can hope, but I don't find it likely. So, we will never find out whether most agree with me or with you on whether this needs to change. That is why I will base the end result of the OP on what people say in this thread. Before I can do that though, I need people making suggestions, going either way.

No, not really. Have you not read the 5 or more posts not wanting BH changed at all? Am I the only one who took the time to read them all? And no I never said no one wanted it changed and if I did I meant it that way the majority doesn't (in other words I was editing out the minority). And I'm not just going by posts in this thread I'm going by those I see in-game, etc. Most from the majority I see think its fine.

Unfortunately, I have to disagree with this being the same as it is there. It is two different games, two different communities. On an extreme, compare the GunZ community to this, you will see this community is like utopia in comparison. There, you can't play without someone saying "noob" when you play a game. If you can't do all the moves there, you are considered a noob. If you decide you want to use a certain weapon, even if it is better. I'd like to go into better details on this, but unfortunately it's such a complex game it would only cause confusion to try to explain.

*sigh* 1. two different games or not doesn't change the fact the basic idea is the same nor the fact that everything that goes on here went on there. And that a lot of the changes people want here they either all ready had or wanted on that game and they were miserable. It also does not change the fact the players are the same in how they think, things they want out of the game, etc. A different setting in terms of storyline, graphics, etc yes. But in terms of players still comparable.

However, maybe I am not giving you enough credit for your experience. However, I think that the same could be said in reverse.

Thing is (and I mean no offense when saying this) when you joined according to what you said in your original post was you joined in sep 08 that isn't that long before me. yet you think the insight you've gained is good enough (up to a point) to back up your opinions but because I'm short a few months I supposedly ain't been here long enough and haven't seen enough? I'm sorry but even if we went by your way of determining someones ability to know this subject if you say I haven't been here long enough you'd have to say the same of your self in a way. Because the few months you've been here more then me I don't think makes a big enough gap between our knowledge. More clearly put I don't think that you yourself have not been around enough to know, so how can you really say the same of me?
That I've not been around enough? Also to put more clearly why I'm against bringing join date into this is because it leads people to always want to side or choose the one with the longer years and no matter how long someone else has been here there will always be someone with more years. So the newer people could and or will always get beat out by those people and its not fair.

Please don't think I am looking down on you for any lesser amount of experience. We were all newbies at one point, so I value someone based on how they play and how they change that when it is necessary. So, even if a person who plays a Barb thinks they do better holding aggro in human form, I look at them in higher regard if when I tell them they will hold it better in tiger, they listen. However, all I can judge you on in terms of your experience is, unfortunately, the length of time you have been here. Your opinion still is valuable to me. You've said you disagree with me, and that means that is one more person who thinks I am wrong. Unlike the electoral college, I find every vote matters, not just those within a certain circle.

I have a barb and I only have him in human form to buff, he always stays in tiger form

But, the thing is though people have different play styles and can do something sometimes the majority can't. People say my sin is squishy and say pure dex assassins have a worse time solo. Now, I don't know about high lvls as I'm just starting to inch my way there but of the 57 lvls I've gone through I've soloed all quests except boss quests as my low hp would make it hard to do those same lvl but that doesn't mean someone can't, just means if nothing else I can't.

I seem to have the exact same problem with most people, and the appreciation goes both ways. Like I said though, I automatically assume someone is going to be insulting me. Now that we have an understanding of each other, I think we both can continue to discuss this in a civil manner. Hopefully, we will get more people to join us.

I think that's a reasonable request and easily accomplished between us

and yeah it be more fun and easier to get a broader picture if more would post. I do have to say though I think our exchanges have help publicity for this thread if only a little^^

ACLucius - Archosaur wrote: »

Also, just a tip since you said you tend to say things in a way you don't mean for it to come out. Long posts (like this) I will often spend over an hour just going back through it and revising. If I posted everything exactly as I had originally written it, I think I might actually sound like the Hitler of the forums. I don't always post right after a reply because I will sometimes just leave, come back and continue writing.

Believe me I do edit, as I would also sound twice as worse if I didn't, lol. I used to be a tomboy and rebel/loner/wolverine wanna be(<--I know I'm a strange girl and I don't deny it, lol) so sarcasm and harsh response whether meant that way or not tend to be my default setting, lol. Oh, yeah and my last post a lone got edit about twelve or more times through out the day before you saw it.

For safety purposes:
Disclaimer: Any offensive, rude, harsh or seemingly insulting behavior or insult is completely unintentional, and here by apologized for. This post is not liable for any lost or stolen property, property lost or stolen while reading this post is subject to your local claims department with no returns, refunds or exchanges by this post. Thank-you for reading and yes, everything after the first sentence of this disclaimer is meant to be a joke and there by funny as the reader sees fit to find it.

dontviolate · July 2010

*Prays to god GMs ignore this post* b:shocked

DDEShare - Raging Tide · July 2010

I started reading this last night, sort of stopped at page 5 because there's just a bit too much. Meh, I've only been playing PWI for a month and a half, but I'll toss in my two cents, for what it's worth.

Firstly, this game is, hands down, the fastest leveling MMO I have ever played. I have spent about 6 months on another game, and only got to Lv55 out of a total of 120, even though I spent a similar amount of time per day. And yes, I do attribute a lot of this to easy quests. I remember that I got something like 100k exp back at Lv40 just for starting the Goshiki chain? I stayed at 5x for a week, which, by older players' standards, is probably long, but meh :P In fact I could have dinged twice today, and probably to 70 by this week, but instead I fed about 170% of my exp to my genie. Why? Because my normal quest list is massive, and I want to get rid of it, mainly for the rep.

Leveling in this game is incredibly fast, yes, but I don't feel like that's necessairly a bad thing. Yesterday was quite literally the first time I had actually grinded something (I don't really consider lower level quests grinding). And honestly, killing 60 mobs for 5% exp? Don't get me wrong, it's not that I'm lazy, I've done stuff like this for months on other MMOs. But there gets to be a point where something like this is just...not that worth it. I don't mind questing, but I would also like to be able to fill in that 80% shortfall when my quests run out with ease. I understand OP's position, that leveling TOO fast does cause problems, such as money-wise, and BH is pretty easy as a whole. I am definitely up for a challenge, but with your suggestions I don't think it's really worth doing a BH, only when I'm bored and wanting to kill something to pass the time. All in all, I like your suggestion, but that may be too hard. I would like the OPTION of leveling up fast. It doesn't necessairly mean I will abuse it.

I notice a LOT of debate about how BH and fast leveling makes/breaks a character. This is true, but only to an extent. BH does teach things solo grinding does not, such as how to work with a team and not get everyone else killed. But, in my opinion, repeating a macro a thousand times verses changing situatinos in a BH, solo grinding doesn't really teach you more. I know a barb in my faction who hasn't quested since Lv40. He was able to tank all of FC at Lv72, and is generally one of the pro-est person I know. On the flip side, I also know a guildie who doesn't know what BH stands for. He's a wiz with 70 vit, unidentified armor, and wielding 2 physical attack rings. Noobs are going to happen regardless of leveling speed. And personally, even with the current BH system, doing instances is still harder than solo grinding.

Just my two cents ;3

Scathatch - Harshlands · August 2010

sry I stopped reading at about page four, and w/e my join date says I've been playing pwi for a long time (though not on this char)

BH III would pretty much be a complete waste of time in your idea for BH, and would probably cost more exp/money then it would give....

also I agree with whoever said that BH's should be once per day and unstackable

ACLucius - Archosaur wrote: »

How do you think we did it back when this game was brand new? This is another reason I stated when I came here. When PWI started, we didn't have BH, we had to grind our levels. Yes, it took a few months usually to get to even 60+. We also did our FB's at our own level with a squad our own level. It used to be an accomplishment to say you got your 59 skills. It was considered and achievement to reach Demon/Sage, and if you got to 100, you actually felt like you made a great leap. Levels mean more the harder you have to work for them, and as it is, they are handed out with the current system.

i think your taking this a lil to seriously dude, its a game...

Asperitas - Lost City · August 2010

I'm just in shock people think 10% from doing 5 minutes of work is "nothing".

I mean, I'm a busy university student with a life. I only have time for WQ and MQ. I get like 5% a day, and I think that's the sh*t already. For 15 minutes of killing mobs that do 1 damage and then 2 hours of afk world quest, I feel like I'm powerlevelling with no effort at all. I mean I'm almost 95 already, and I don't quest, I don't BH, I don't even WQ anymore. I don't hyper frost, don't oracle, I don't do anything and somehow I'm nearing 95.

This levelling system is already as casual as it gets. Endgame in a few weeks? That's private server status.

Like so many other people said before, take the time to play the damn game, then maybe you'll figure out why nobody will take you to rebirth or TT.

By the way. Running a perfect BH doesn't make you a good player. That just means everybody performed their parts. That should be the norm. A good player really shines when the **** hits the fan and all havoc breaks loose. That's when you can tell a seasoned player from a crappy BH noob.

ACLucius - Archosaur · August 2010

Okay, I just got back from a very tiresome weekend, so I will just make a comment about one post, then respond to others later.

Scathatch - Harshlands wrote: »

sry I stopped reading at about page four, and w/e my join date says I've been playing pwi for a long time (though not on this char)

BH III would pretty much be a complete waste of time in your idea for BH, and would probably cost more exp/money then it would give....

also I agree with whoever said that BH's should be once per day and unstackable

i think your taking this a lil to seriously dude, its a game...

Yes, BH III would be useless pretty much. The point is though to give a quest which does not have exp as the incentive. For people to try a higher instance not for massive amounts of exp, but for a reward of some other type. Most people wouldn't do it, and to many it would be a waste. However, to those who do it, it's a bit of an accomplishment, along with giving them bragging rights amongst their friends. It's for the purpose of encouraging players to try something more difficult.

You can either make a regular weapon, or you can try TT, an instance harder than grinding for mats to make a weapon, to get a weapon more powerful. Just the same, BH III would be to encourage players to try something harder than usual, and reward them. I've said already, I don't care what the reward is, so long as it isn't more exp.

As for the quote you have, perhaps you should go back and read the post I made that to. I'll be kind enough to provide it right here.

BellaKitsune - Raging Tide wrote: »

Ok, it's almost 5am and I can't get to sleep and your post has irritated me so prepare for bluntness, just a warning.

I've been playing this game for over a year and I think this is idiocy, it's already hard enough as it is, and it only gets worst the higher level you get. Decreasing the exp is foolishness. I came to PWI from a game (which will not be named out of respect to PWI's ToS) where people begged for a decrease in exp for something similar to this and they did it, and now leveling in that game takes forever at high levels even if you play 24~7. And those same people who had wanted it to be changed in the first place were even more upset when they changed it, but of course none of them thought about how it would be if they had changed it, and now the feature in that game is practically worthless. And almost no one uses it now because everyone thinks it's pointless, because it has very little reward for all the effort.

And for doing it with instances your level, this was put in place so people could squad together and get it done, most people can't do a instance at their level. Say you had a level 39ish squad, good luck trying to tank farren at that level.

And decreasing the rewards will almost guarantee you can't find a squad, because no one is going to go through all that work for such a small reward. Also you should keep in mind too that there's a 4 hour time limit now in instances.

If you notice, this person made it out that players could not complete an instance their own level. This person also said leveling would take a long time in the higher levels. To which, I replied saying basically when I started playing, we did all of that and more. There were still players who managed to get to the higher levels, including 10x. I'm not being "serious" about this, I simply was making a point to say that it is not as hard as it makes it out to be.

I'll also again state a Cleric can solo Gluttonix and Drake in BH59. All a Cleric would have to do is wine it, do the bosses, and for 30-40 mins of work, get 285k exp, and it isn't even all that hard. If you don't see a problem with this, I very much doubt your experience within MMORPGs.

This is a very easy game, with leveling just coasting through the waters. What used to take 3 months now takes 2 weeks. What used to take 6 months now takes no more than 2. What used to take a year takes only a few months. You honestly don't see any problem with this? What happens when you are done with this game in a few months? At least with a harder leveling system, you could make a goal. The only thing I would call a goal now is Warsoul, and who knows when that will change.

xxxdsmer · August 2010

lol shooting way too high on the 54-64 lets send 'em after pole/noob. that'd be suicide every time, even with a vit barb and a badarse refined+garnett'd to the hilt max mag cleric.

and yes. BH does make noobs. but its the ppl playing the toons that allow it to make them noobs. they dont even play their class they just stand around while my herc kills the BH lmao

BH revision (rough draft)

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