BH revision (rough draft)

ACLucius - Archosaur

Sheikah - Raging Tide wrote: »

I've been playing since before BH (for over a year or so) and I like the bounty hunter system the way it is. Working harder doesn't make something an accomplishment, doing something ones self is an accomplishment but that doesn't mean the task has to be hard. As long as you take pride in what your doing and the skills that you've earned thats an accomplishment regardless of difficulty.

Also, the "old ways" aren't always best, people used to wash clothes with rocks in the creek and hand-washer/dryers do you want to go back to that? After all it makes the task harder so its more of an "accomplishment", right? So by your logic it must be better. So why do we wash our clothes in a washing machine, pfft such easyness should be outlawed.

People use to grow their food themselves and harvest food entirely by hand. Goodness each individual family grew their own food! You want to go back to that? After all just going to the super market or a fast food place for a bite to eat ain't hard or much of an accomplishment. Guess we need to go back to the old ways there too? Then everyone will have even LESS time for mmos!

Besides going into human nature for a sec no one is going to want to do a ton of work for practically zero reward. Why? Because people like to be rewarded for the effort they put in, that EQUALS the effort they put in not under.

Also, some people like extreme challenge but most don't. Simply, because most people don't think spending an eternity in an mmo just to lvl is an accomplishment. After all it don't pay the bills does it? It don't wash my clothes does it? Don't get me a degree does it? No. So, why do I want to take even MORE time away from REAL-life accomplishments to attain ones that can be gone with one power outage? Does it really make me a better player? a better person? Does it really make me want to love my character enough to WANT to know how to play it right, because lvling is so hard? No.


Also, going back to the washing machine thing how would you like if your grandma or something looked at you or your parents using a washing machine to wash clothes and said "I didn't have that, I had to wash my clothes by hand. I had to work to have clothes to wear. If you want to amount to anything dear you should do it by hand! After all its so much harder then using that silly machine!"



In conclusion no one is going to want your system. The only ones who will want it will be fanatics with no life that either 1. like extreme challenge or 2. have no real life accomplishments to speak of and NEED virtual ones to feel like their worth something.
I will also note not every one is good at mmos or games in general but they don't want to be excluded. They have every right to play and enjoy a good game just as much as the next person. Your system excludes people with real lives and those who aren't good at mmos and games, as well as none-cashshoppers and that just ain't fair.


You probably won't like this post but I can tell you aren't open to the truth. You think your right and your way is better even though it will result in no one ever again using the BH system. And to be blunt any one who doesn't like the BH system because "people lvl to fast" or "because we didn't have it in closed beta" is just jealous either that or aren't thinking over the consequences of such changes.


Ok last thing: I respect your a opinion but I don't think your thinking this entirely through. From want I can tell your looking at this in terms of YOUR play-style and abilities not the average person who also like you was here before BH. And anyone who doesn't know their char because of BH or doesn't know how to play by 40-60ish lacks common sense and or skill and making things harder won't give them either of those (not everyone can be good at this game, some can put in just as much or more effort than you and still have trouble).

Yep, I'm closed minded, that is exactly why I said "critique this please, say how it can be improved, give suggestions and ideas." I'm guessing you didn't read my posts very well, as you don't seem to understand I don't think what I have in my OP is the absolute right. I said in it that it needs a lot of work, that it needs changes and improvements. In fact, I even said I was posting here instead of suggestions because I want opinions on this and suggestions on how to improve it. So far, I have seen a very few posts that did anything but either state the obvious about it, or just flat out attack me and misunderstand me in the process.

If I wanted this to fit my play style, it would go "give me unlimited BH's in all different dungeons," because I have grown tired of grinding after all my time on this game. I level very slowly and leisurely because I just like doing instances over and over. I don't level nearly as fast as many others. In fact, I can't even remember how many days I missed BH on my Assassin during 7x just because I liked doing TT. If you want to grind, go grind. You want to do instances all day, find me on Arch and I'll be more than happy to accompany you. I'm not doing this for my own benefit, or else I would say we need more exp from BH. When I see Clerics though who think purify is a waste because "that icon just keeps coming back, so there is no point to it," then I know that something is wrong. This is happening because people level too quickly.

I'm also not saying to reduce the BH rewards down to nil. Make them worth the effort I say, and if nothing else give extra to it. 25% though at 69? That is just excessive. Making it harder though and level them a bit slower, that will teach them how to play. Like I said, I can go in and solo my BH59 on Glut and Drake with my Cleric only. I'll also get 20% of what I need from just those as well. With wines, that means in about 30 minutes tops, I'll get nearly 300k exp with little effort. Compare that to Oracles if you want, but Oracles you have to pay for one way or another. Pop a few Concentrate Orbs though, and I get it from BH pretty much for free.

So, this time when you respond, do me a personal favor and make some suggestions on how to improve the idea overall instead of just saying "you're wrong, I'm right, goodbye."

And sorry Kupuntu, but I'm inclined to agree with Sheikah. We do use our experience from real life when we talk about this game. If we only ever used experience from it, I would never feel inclined to increase the difficulty of BH. I personally have always liked a challenge, both in games and real life. It makes everything more worthwhile to me if it is harder to do. That's not because of my experience on this game, it's just how I like everything in general.

And before anyone thinks it, no I am not trying to force everything to fit what I want. I honestly have seen a decline, like Micheal, in the quality of players, and it has happened since the implementation of the BH system. I regard it much like the Nien event, a very good idea that didn't have as much thought put into it as I wish it would have. However, I'd rather not turn this into a Nien thread.

In any case, I am off to sleep. I do hope that tomorrow I can come in here and find some suggestions for improving this. I don't want a thread I created with good intentions to sink to a flame wars thread with nothing to gain. At the very least there can be some improvements made, whether they involve including more of the current BH system or doing a complete overhaul.

Traz - Dreamweaver

DrHook - Lost City wrote: »

There are fail BHs mostly because of people not knowing how to play there class.

I think it's funny the progression of "seasoned" players referring to the newer level 100s.

-First there was oracle babies
-Second BH babies
-Now hyper babies

Irony? If someone did grind for exp to hit 100 or used anything else they would call them morons. b:chuckle

Sheikah - Raging Tide

ACLucius - Archosaur wrote: »

Yep, I'm closed minded, that is exactly why I said "critique this please, say how it can be improved, give suggestions and ideas." I'm guessing you didn't read my posts very well, as you don't seem to understand I don't think what I have in my OP is the absolute right. I said in it that it needs a lot of work, that it needs changes and improvements. In fact, I even said I was posting here instead of suggestions because I want opinions on this and suggestions on how to improve it. So far, I have seen a very few posts that did anything but either state the obvious about it, or just flat out attack me and misunderstand me in the process.

If I wanted this to fit my play style, it would go "give me unlimited BH's in all different dungeons," because I have grown tired of grinding after all my time on this game. I level very slowly and leisurely because I just like doing instances over and over. I don't level nearly as fast as many others. In fact, I can't even remember how many days I missed BH on my Assassin during 7x just because I liked doing TT. If you want to grind, go grind. You want to do instances all day, find me on Arch and I'll be more than happy to accompany you. I'm not doing this for my own benefit, or else I would say we need more exp from BH. When I see Clerics though who think purify is a waste because "that icon just keeps coming back, so there is no point to it," then I know that something is wrong. This is happening because people level too quickly.

I'm also not saying to reduce the BH rewards down to nil. Make them worth the effort I say, and if nothing else give extra to it. 25% though at 69? That is just excessive. Making it harder though and level them a bit slower, that will teach them how to play. Like I said, I can go in and solo my BH59 on Glut and Drake with my Cleric only. I'll also get 20% of what I need from just those as well. With wines, that means in about 30 minutes tops, I'll get nearly 300k exp with little effort. Compare that to Oracles if you want, but Oracles you have to pay for one way or another. Pop a few Concentrate Orbs though, and I get it from BH pretty much for free.

So, this time when you respond, do me a personal favor and make some suggestions on how to improve the idea overall instead of just saying "you're wrong, I'm right, goodbye."

You misunderstand me as well though. I never said you were closed minded or that you thought your opinion was 100% right. I never said it nor implied it. But, the point your missing is from what I've seen most people don't think its too hard in fact most people are grateful for bounty hunter and feel just as much if not more of an accomplishment now than they did before bounty hunter because it was so hard to see end-game content.

And to be honest I don't see where anyone has attacked you, (though my sis bella I don't know, she hasn't had sleep and has a bit of a temper^^') they have brought up points of why they disagree with you had flaws in your system, etc. But that's all I've seen (and bringing up flaws in it is part of critiquing because if you don't know whats wrong with it you can't know how to improve it).

And I disagree with you and I stated why as well as pointed out where I think there are flaws with your idea. I also never said I was right and you were wrong all I did was disagree with the BH system needing changed and I have that right. What I meant by that last statement was that you are so bent on that the system needs changed that your ignoring the fact that most people like it as is. You want to change something that a lot of people think isn't broken and thereby shouldn't be fixed.

And the game bella mentioned that had a similar system they claimed the same thing "people lvl too fast now that we have such and such" "no one knows what their doing", etc
Problem is once they got what they wanted and the systems got the changes people thought it needed people thought it was too much and the whole thing was no longer worth using (and there was still just as many noobs). And I can see your idea or possibly any change to the BH system leading to the same thing.

I will also note with BH as is I don't lvl my chars anywhere near as fast as you. Also, not everyone uses BH and even the ones that do most of the time know how to play. Lvling to fast does not cause noobs because even before BH you still had them. And that is the point I think your missing. That fast lvling does not cause noobs, noobs cause them selves through unwillingness to learn.

And I can't find anyway to critique your system because as I said BH in my opinion is fine as is, and I can't see any improvement to it needed and even if I did not the ones your proposing. As I said I can't lvl all that fast with or without BH so I don't see where you think everyone lvls super fast from it. As the exp doesn't amount to that much all ready.

But, if I can think of any improvements i'll let you know.

P.S all I wanted was for you to see the consequences of any possible changes both good and bad. Also, I said you seemed to be tailoring it to your play style and abilities simply from how you turned down the peoples opinions stating BH is fine.

Also, if you really want to prevent noobs then we need some kind of training or apprentice system where higher more experienced players train the newer ones because not everyone catches on quickly. There are probably many noobs who don't even know what BH is let alone able to lvl fast from it.

Edit: I thought of some ideas as to changes for BH if you feel it really needs any (I'm also including why I think some of the current ideas won't work, as well as down sides to my ideas given)

1. you can decrease the reward and the difficulty of BH-draw back: it could make BH extremely routine to the point people give up on doing it all together

2.You can increase the difficulty and the reward (the increase in reward could be either items, coins or exp)-draw back: People could still not do it simply because its too hard

3.Keep exp the same but make BH less frequent-drawback:

4.Decrease exp and also make it less frequent still-drawback:

5.Make it start no earlier than 45-50ish and make it so only a certain lvl range can help (i.e no lvl 80+ helping on certain BH's)-drawback:

6.combine some or all of above-draw back:

7.Make people go through some kind of char specific training ground before they can participate in BH or any instance-Draw Back:

That's all I can think of, also as to the idea of decreasing the reward AND increasing the difficulty that wouldn't work I don't think because people could give up on doing BH all together depending on how the rewards were decreased.

Khanderin - Lost City

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

Umm.. you're kidding right? What end-game content? You mean spamming 3-3 and Nirvana hundreds of times over and over and over and over? How many times are you gonna kill that same world boss over and over... That and TW is all that is really left. Enjoy the ride, don't race to the end, cause when you get there you'll be lonely in a crowd of people who have known each other for many months or over a year and get upset when they all say 'who the hell are you' when you think you've hit 100 and pro and looking for a squad and most of these people only invite friends.

Last year, by the time you hit 89, pretty much everyone either knew you or knew of you and knew what to expect. Now there are nameless and faceless 100's running around in **** 9x gear begging for squads and help and not getting it because they don't have any friends who will run with them because they just wanted to hit end-game as fast as they can.

Anyways, whatever. Play the game how you want. If you spend enough cash you might get lucky enough to get in one of the major factions. There isn't really any time for you to waste to actually farm your own gear anymore because players just have to hit 100 as fast as they can and get dejected because nobody will help them farm 3-3 for gold mats or join pickup parties and get nothing and end up quitting because there's not much left for them to actually do. Or make an alt and start all over. b:bye

You think it's any different being stuck at 70 or 80 for a year? You say enjoy the ride but there is no ride. At 70 or 80 and you're doing the same thing over and over again just like you're doing at 100. The only difference is at 100, you have more stuff to do. At 8x right now, I haven't experienced a lot of stuff like warsong, nirvana, higher HHs, sage/demon skills, triple spark etc and I appreciate not grinding my **** off for a year to have a chance of doing these. Then there's TW. You can't tw for **** at 7x or 8x. It's pointless when you're fighting a bunch of level 100s you might as well not be in the tw at all.

And who really cares about being known. If you feel the need to be famous on a MMO you have ego problems. You make friends and join guilds along the way and by the time you're 100, you should have met some people and found a guild both of which you can do instance runs with. There's no need to be known by the whole server.

And to those that are saying fast leveling makes level 100 noobs, you're WRONG. Noobs are noobs and will always be noobs. There is only so much you need to learn with any given class and it's very simple. You just need to make the effort to learn them.

Take a barb for example. It takes less than 5 runs of BH39 to realize you need to do 2 things. 1 is to continuosly poke all mobs you're tanking so cleric doesn't get heal aggro and 2 is to constantly flesh ream the boss to maintain aggro. I don't even have a barb and I know these things yet there are fail 8x barbs who don't and lose aggro constantly. If they haven't realized what they need to be doing after 50 or 100 BH runs, what makes you think they will learn after 200 or 500?

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

Sheikah - Raging Tide wrote: »

I have read ALL the post's my opinion stands. And I don't really care if you like my post or not it's the truth. And yes you should compare games to rl because that is how people judge the world around them. This game is a persons version of an ideal world it is BASED off of rl therefore rl applies.

And noobs are not created by "fast lvling" people can lvl fast and know what their doing pretty much everyone I have met since BH's creation know what their doing. Noob's are people who don't care to know what their doing. The kind of person that turns in to a noob can do BH (or any instance) over and over and over again and STILL not know what their doing. Why? because they don't really care whether they learn or not or whether their doing it right. I know tons of people that have lvled fast and know what their doing.


I will also note even the original posters thoughts on this subject (whether he realizes it or not) come from rl experience and thought. People develop their understanding from rl, everything you or I think is influenced by rl you can't escape that. If you think for even a sec you can then you have no business discussing this or any thing else.

1) Noobs are created by leveling fast. Like you said, you can level while not caring how to do it right. If you leveled like in the old times, you would have to care how to do that. And yes, I know more people who know what their doing than people people who don't know what they're doing. It's just that if you couldn't level fast, there wouldn't be as many high level noobs because most noobs would quit before reaching the high levels.

2) Your last paragraph is entirely correct. I didn't mean that you could develop a game without knowing RL things. However, you can't just say that people should level fast so that they can concentrate on RL things such as finding a job or graduating. Doing certain things in a game should be accomplishments, not something that are handed to you. "Look at me, I'm level 100. I just spent 200$ and won the game. Look at me." It's pathetic. Same thing goes for being a high level without using RL money. Before this game, people spent a couple hundred hours in a console game maxing their stats and killing all the high level bosses. When they did that, they felt that they had done something not everyone can do.

3) What I understand by comparing RL to a game: "I can't PK you, killing people is illegal".

4) Having real life goals is different from in-game goals. One day I'm going to become either a doctor or a politician. It's just that I'm not going to work for those goals on my free time because I don't have to. I know that I can become a successful doctor by doing my homework and getting good grades.

Sheikah - Raging Tide

Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »

1) Noobs are created by leveling fast. Like you said, you can level while not caring how to do it right. If you leveled like in the old times, you would have to care how to do that. And yes, I know more people who know what their doing than people people who don't know what they're doing. It's just that if you couldn't level fast, there wouldn't be as many high level noobs because most noobs would quit before reaching the high levels.

2) Your last paragraph is entirely correct. I didn't mean that you could develop a game without knowing RL things. However, you can't just say that people should level fast so that they can concentrate on RL things such as finding a job or graduating. Doing certain things in a game should be accomplishments, not something that are handed to you. "Look at me, I'm level 100. I just spent 200$ and won the game. Look at me." It's pathetic. Same thing goes for being a high level without using RL money. Before this game, people spent a couple hundred hours in a console game maxing their stats and killing all the high level bosses. When they did that, they felt that they had done something not everyone can do.

3) What I understand by comparing RL to a game: "I can't PK you, killing people is illegal".

4) Having real life goals is different from in-game goals. One day I'm going to become either a doctor or a politician. It's just that I'm not going to work for those goals on my free time because I don't have to. I know that I can become a successful doctor by doing my homework and getting good grades.

1. fast lvling does not create noobs you have to know how to play your class in order to grind without dying. and I have lvled the old fashion way and I do not think I'm a good player because of it, I think I'm good because I like knowing what I'm doing not because I lvled fast or slow.

2. I never said people should lvl fast to be able to concentrate on rl things. But, on the other hand rl things can (with the old ways or even the new) make something take twice as long as it would for someone with all the free time in the world. Therefor making it much harder for that person to enjoy the game. Lvling shouldn't neither be painfully slow nor excessively fast because an mmo has to fit into various age groups of players lifestyle so each can enjoy the game. And someone who doesn't have tons of time to spend on an mmo is just as likely if not more likely to quit the game as a noob when it comes to trying to get to higher lvls.

3. Saying you can't pk because killing is illegal is doing more then comparing games and rl
it's completely forgetting that its a game. You need to use logic and common sense those two things need to govern a game just as they do rl at least games like mmos because mmos fantasy or not mimic rl. So what people like or don't like in terms of challenge lvl, etc are going to be the same. The setting is different but people's reactions when it comes to things will be the same.

4. I do also agree things shouldn't be just handed to a person they should (at least to a certain degree) have to work for them. But, even that requires the person in question to have some kind of work ethic and not everyone who plays this is going to nor necessarily ever going to have that. Hence noobs will always exist because some people just aren't going to have the will or the work ethic needed. And kids especially are going to want that instant gratification that comes from lvling fast or having someone do everything for them as a lot of them (and some adults too) don't or won't yet have the Patience to do every single thing (especially if the task is rather difficult) them selves.

I'm an adult I don't have all the time in the world to lvl because I know every second I'm here is 1 second more I'm a way from something else. So, I like BH and other lvling aids because they are fun and I can still enjoy the game without spending a ridiculous amount of time to accomplish 1 in game goal. In other words if lvling is too hard you are forced to spend more than just your free time playing the game trying to accomplish your goals. I already spend too much time on this game as it is, I don't want to have to spend a whole day just to go up 1 lvl or to get 10% of a lvl. Not because I'm lazy but because I would like to see my goals accomplished before I'm married and have kids or before I'm 50+. I see nothing wrong with wanting to be lvl 80-100 in about 1-2 yrs without having to play non-stop. This game is my hobby not my life.



Also, when in comes to lvling fast its not really BH that's doing it. Its BH plus Hyper stones, Exp events, etc. So its more a combination then any one specific thing.

Yulk - Heavens Tear

whoa, terrible idea. Yes, BH's difficulty level is easier than wicked pirates. But what can a level 45 squishy class do against Rankar? Especially as a cleric, b:surrender . Props for you encouraging more of a challenge, but people don't even accept lower than that person with the FB tab. Don't go for a disaster of squad either.

Bounty hunter quests should be removed IMHO. Its like beating up a blind man or a handicapped person.

Like I suggested before level 40-48, 49-58, 59-68, 69-78, 79-88, 89-98, 99 and 100 should be in their own FBs and level restricted. Which will force people to learn how to play instead of just auto attacking their way at the boss.

You can just auto attack and use a few IHs, thats how easy BH is

Zoe - Heavens Tear

It's not about BEING level 100+, its all about GETTING to be 100+.

Once you are a high level, there is nothing much to do anymore. A world chat I saw yesterday said it all.

"Level 100 barb looking for something to do"

I've been here since the game began and I'm only 95. I'm willing to bet that I've done a heck of a lot more on this game than anyone who has skipped their way to a high level with BH and oracles and hyper exp.

Being a high level means nothing when you skip the entire game to get there.

However it is indeed possible to learn your class while doing the current BH system. On my barbarian for example, I did use oracles to get him through the swamp area fast, and he does do BH runs. However, he also tanks every single boss he needs, at the level he needs it.

When he was 19, he tanked his own fb 19. Tanked fb 29 at 29, 39 and 39 etc. Tanked his own fb 69, it was fun I was able to cancel almost all of polearms skills since I had already gotten so good at it by taking all of my own bosses. I needed to kill eyes of the krimson beyond at 60, tanked it myself.

I've run dungeons without anyone pulling so I could learn how to control agro.

If you make a good effort to really learn how to play your class, you can do so with the current BH system. The main issue is that almost no one bothers to learn.

LeLelle - Sanctuary

Change the BH? Seriously?

You have no idea what it is that you are asking for, do you?

The cat is out of the bag. Remove leveling ability of BH and it gets replaced by a cash shop item. Probably will be able to purchase exp directly.

Level 100 will be attainable by those who can spend 3 figures per month on the game.

Level 102 + is reserved for those who can spend 4 figures per month on the game.

Is this what you want?

Thanks for the suggestion.

Zoe - Heavens Tear

LeLelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Change the BH? Seriously?

You have no idea what it is that you are asking for, do you?

The cat is out of the bag. Remove leveling ability of BH and it gets replaced by a cash shop item. Probably will be able to purchase exp directly.

Level 100 will be attainable by those who can spend 3 figures per month on the game.

Level 102 + is reserved for those who can spend 4 figures per month on the game.

Is this what you want?

Thanks for the suggestion.

The point is, YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO LEVEL THIS FAST!

It leaves the game with a bunch of level 100s that don't know what they are doing, that have nothing to do and simply leave the game in a month since they skipped the whole darn thing.

Level 100 is supposed to be a major thing that takes many months to reach. Not a week.

Paramedic - Dreamweaver

BH should be +10lvl, not 20 like now

there should be tickets for it like for rebirth (no power leveling)

and no bh2 and 3 (at least on low levels)


it still would speed up lvling and make game more casual (or not hardcore mmo) players friendly


now it s just silly. so much game content which u skip by BH-whoring and nothing wait for you on 100lvl

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Khanderin - Lost City wrote: »

You think it's any different being stuck at 70 or 80 for a year? You say enjoy the ride but there is no ride. At 70 or 80 and you're doing the same thing over and over again just like you're doing at 100. The only difference is at 100, you have more stuff to do. At 8x right now, I haven't experienced a lot of stuff like warsong, nirvana, higher HHs, sage/demon skills, triple spark etc and I appreciate not grinding my **** off for a year to have a chance of doing these. Then there's TW. You can't tw for **** at 7x or 8x. It's pointless when you're fighting a bunch of level 100s you might as well not be in the tw at all.

Just because I say it's too easy now, you think I'm suggesting to put the game back as it was a year ago? Are you that much of an idiot? I didn't say that either. You ARE one of the new generation of players that are pretty worthless to take into an instance other than BH.

You think that you're so pro because nobody dies in your BH squad? BH is a rinse/repeat wine it, kill a mob or two, play follow the leader to maximize your wine costs until you DD the boss to death. That's a horribly efficient way to learn to play your class, yeah?

So you race through BH to get to 100 fast, you still don't really know the game. You need to be led through any other instance other than BH, if someone tells you how to run an FB you're lost, and your type is usually the weakest link in a party, are too timid to do anything when the **** hits the fan and most likely are the spectator in a squad of experienced players.

And who really cares about being known. If you feel the need to be famous on a MMO you have ego problems. You make friends and join guilds along the way and by the time you're 100, you should have met some people and found a guild both of which you can do instance runs with. There's no need to be known by the whole server.

You completely missed the point of my comment. Of course you're being either sarcastic or stupid. Who the hell are you? Hyper frost, hope to see you at 100. You do know that the majority of TT and Nirvana parties are done within closed circles. Race to 100 then hope to find a 3-3 party who will farm you your gold mats. Pickup parties just love to do that. lol

You're one of those players who will hit 100, be pretty much laughed at in a real guild and then expect to be taught everything you should have learned along the way. Yeah I have no clue what I'm talking about, I've only seen dozens of players that fit your mold.

And to those that are saying fast leveling makes level 100 noobs, you're WRONG. Noobs are noobs and will always be noobs. There is only so much you need to learn with any given class and it's very simple. You just need to make the effort to learn them.

Yes, you've learned as much about playing your class as your able in a short span of time. So pro.

I'm a carebear, but you're an Assassin getting close to 9x... and you have 12 PvP kills? lmao. You've wasted most of your time in a BH instance. Get out and PvP with players your own level. When you hit 100 you're gonna be owned by everyone... I bet you QQ a lot too. b:laugh

Take a barb for example. It takes less than 5 runs of BH39 to realize you need to do 2 things. 1 is to continuosly poke all mobs you're tanking so cleric doesn't get heal aggro and 2 is to constantly flesh ream the boss to maintain aggro. I don't even have a barb and I know these things yet there are fail 8x barbs who don't and lose aggro constantly. If they haven't realized what they need to be doing after 50 or 100 BH runs, what makes you think they will learn after 200 or 500?

LOL. You're using a BH39 as your example of learning how to play your class. Hilarious. So after 10 or 100 BH runs, you still know relatively little about your class, but you are PRO at running that particular BH instance. Running one BH over and over doesn't teach you anything except how to run that particular BH. Of course you don't understand, you couldn't. b:bye

Quilue - Sanctuary

Khanderin - Lost City wrote: »

You think it's any different being stuck at 70 or 80 for a year? You say enjoy the ride but there is no ride. At 70 or 80 and you're doing the same thing over and over again just like you're doing at 100. The only difference is at 100, you have more stuff to do. At 8x right now, I haven't experienced a lot of stuff like warsong, nirvana, higher HHs, sage/demon skills, triple spark etc and I appreciate not grinding my **** off for a year to have a chance of doing these. Then there's TW. You can't tw for **** at 7x or 8x. It's pointless when you're fighting a bunch of level 100s you might as well not be in the tw at all.

And who really cares about being known. If you feel the need to be famous on a MMO you have ego problems. You make friends and join guilds along the way and by the time you're 100, you should have met some people and found a guild both of which you can do instance runs with. There's no need to be known by the whole server.

And to those that are saying fast leveling makes level 100 noobs, you're WRONG. Noobs are noobs and will always be noobs. There is only so much you need to learn with any given class and it's very simple. You just need to make the effort to learn them.

Take a barb for example. It takes less than 5 runs of BH39 to realize you need to do 2 things. 1 is to continuosly poke all mobs you're tanking so cleric doesn't get heal aggro and 2 is to constantly flesh ream the boss to maintain aggro. I don't even have a barb and I know these things yet there are fail 8x barbs who don't and lose aggro constantly. If they haven't realized what they need to be doing after 50 or 100 BH runs, what makes you think they will learn after 200 or 500?

About TW, levels don't mean jack **** when people don't have the gear and experience. The only people who are of any challenge in the TWs i go to are notably the older players, the names i recognize. They have the decent gear and the experience to put up a fight. Then there's other people where you attack and you can notably notice them fumbling and using stupid spells because they're panicking and inexperienced.

I say if you have to be inexperienced and undergeared, better go in as a 8x than as a 10x, at least you won't look as terrible.

And to those that are saying fast leveling makes level 100 noobs, they're right, very right. Failures did not always end up so far in this game. When leveling was slow, people, believe it or not, ran more instances because they spammed FBs for exp and TTs for gear - gear they would use for weeks to come. They also did group grinding on esos which helped establish their network of friends. Bad players simply didn't have friends and they leveled slow and got bad gear. Now they have this realization at lvl 100 instead of say, lvl 60. I remember my FB69 was healed by 2 6x clerics and tanked by a lvl 70 barb, now I hear of 8x squads getting wiped in BH69. This game was originally designed with discouraging mindless exp early. Why do you think something as mindless was world quest was only available for 7x and above?

RedsRose - Lost City

Michael and Quilue = Spot on!!


Many new players have no idea. Hell, I know 10x that don't even have 1st map because they did not realize a culti went with it -.-

^ Sad imo

1) People should not be leveling as fast as they are...getting to 100 just means you take the friends you have made and live in instances with the occasional PvP for some. or you can even just sit around Arch until TW weekend.

2) Many of us "old timers" started to TW when we were 6x and for some even lower level then that. Experiance in knowing your character/class in and out will not even always save you in "high end" TW's...trust me -.-. Pin yourself up against equally or higher geared/same level players and you are in for a ride.

3) People never having done but one quest or very minimal miss out on SO much of the game imo. I have done all of my quests and tbh every one of them (although some SUCKED) have helped me to greater understand my class and even other classes.

4) I lol'd at level 100's having more stuff to do...*sigh*


Meh...I could keep going on but no point...b:surrender

EmpireMind - Harshlands

It's pretty much the developers fault that they give all this fast leveling with no endgame content. Of course, they probably don't even care because u bought things from the precious Boutique to level faster and in the end, they got your time and money on something not worth it.

Michael_Dark - Lost City

RedsRose - Lost City wrote: »

4) I lol'd at level 100's having more stuff to do...*sigh*

It's hurry up and get to 100... don't make any real friends on the way, don't put together a regular farming party, don't learn how to farm or make coin, so when you get there, you'll need to cash shop all your gear. So maybe if you spend enough money you'll have decent gear, but you'll still be a horrible player.

They don't even realize that it takes a few months before you find those people that you fit along with, share the same goals and ideals and are willing to be selfless to even make a regular farming party.

The only thing to do at 100 IS to farm. b:surrender

Airyll - Dreamweaver

+1 to Michael (again... xD), Quilue and RedsRose.

I didn't necessarily start as early as any of the three, but I started early enough to know that there were very few to no failures above level 75 before BH came along. People would not squad with you, you didn't have friends to go and farm things on a regular basis with, nobody would even consider taking you on a dungeon run of any kind nor an RB if you didn't know what you were doing. Because you were not worth everybody else's time and effort.

Yet these days we have level 100s living off macros and never adapting to a situation. I won't name names but I wasn't kidding about the barb who thought he could tank a wave in gamma in human form. This guy would have been slapped sideways and back again by the old community and he would never have found another Gamma. Yet, he was not booted from the squad and the squad tried three RBs until they gave up.

It's a huge sign of failure when not only does somebody get it so wrong it makes you cry, but when other people don't think there's a problem.

RedsRose - Lost City

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

The only thing to do at 100 IS to farm. b:surrender

^ Amen to that.

Really it is sad...Farming and TW then more farming then maybe PvP for 5 minutes then Farming then TW then stand in Arch and duel to test combo's or genies skills then Farm then afk then setup shop then Farm....

People do not realize it then get to 100 and RageQuit b:chuckle


I remember when +5 Gear with Flawless shards was OP b:cry

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

It's hurry up and get to 100... don't make any real friends on the way, don't put together a regular farming party, don't learn how to farm or make coin, so when you get there, you'll need to cash shop all your gear. So maybe if you spend enough money you'll have decent gear, but you'll still be a horrible player.

They don't even realize that it takes a few months before you find those people that you fit along with, share the same goals and ideals and are willing to be selfless to even make a regular farming party.

The only thing to do at 100 IS to farm. b:surrender

You realize the problem with your post? Since everyone speeds through the game, making friends that farm with you is close to impossible. It means that even if you would like to play the like you describe, you can't.

Eoria - Harshlands

Lets be honest with ourselves... There have always been noobs. There's no way around this. Hell, I remember a time back on a different version where this level 100 barb responded to my looking for one for TT 2-3. This barb had no idea what Flesh Ream was, thus DDs aggroed, and we party wiped. I had to kick the barb and call in a friend who just logged on to tank for us. At the time, we did not have BH or the revamped FC either.

Anywho, I remember leveling with quests and later doing zhen parties as a fox form lure (without those Transcendental Scrolls 95% of the time), using those Punish quests (dunno the name here, sorry) to grind with other people, and fishing parties. Frankly, I would not want to go back to that. I did it from level 1 to the mid 80s on my veno when we finally got the first version of BH (until it went on permanent vacation to the Bahamas) and it's an utter pain in the ****.

All of you whining about how these people don't know how to do so-and-so dungeon because all they know is BH, did you consider that it's likely their first time doing it or even their first time with a certain boss? You need to teach them. Then they can teach others. For example, a friend of mine showed me how to kill Mystrealm (Illusion Lord or something on here?), the final boss of TT 3-3. After that, I showed others how to kill him. The same thing occurred with pretty much the whole of squad mode of Lunar Glade.

And speaking from experience, most of those that run BH do know what they're doing by the time they start BH51. There's still some outliers and mistakes, but no one's perfect. Also, TT/Lunar/FC are not all that different from FB/BH. If you can run BH just fine, you can run TT/Lunar/FC pretty easily provided someone EXPLAINS the differences and what to do on the bosses/certain mobs.

So yeah...just keep BH the way it is.

P.S. Anyone who can manage to get to 100, even with BH, without having at least a few friends isn't doing something right. Seriously.

BellaKitsune - Raging Tide

Ok now that I had some sleep, I had a little more time to think on this.

I don't have a problem with starting BH with 39 instead of 29, and dropping the BH down 10 levels.

Something like this maybe:

levels 40-49: BH39 all 3 bosses

levels 50-59 BH51 all 3 bosses

levels 60-69 BH 59 all 5 bosses

ect.

By removing BH29 and lowering the level at which the types of BH are done, and adding in the extra bosses that would make it a little more challenging, but I would still keep the same rewards. But the reward now would fit the effort required. I still don't care for the idea of spreading them out, in my opinion they should stay in the same instance.

But keep in mind that even if you change BH, even if it turns out better, your still gonna have a lot of those players who don't know what their doing. Because as long as there's hypers and oracles people are just gonna use those to level up instead. In my opinion hypers should be removed or level restricted to like 80 or 90+, and oracles should never be offered in the cash shop even though they don't always offer them, I don't think they should ever be. And the 2x and 3x exp events don't help ether.

I don't really like the idea of using hypers or oracles to level up, and have never once bought a hyper or oracle, and the only oracles I ever used were ones from quests or drops. I enjoy working on quests even if they can be tedious at times and would care less if hypers and oracles up and vanished lol. I'm not necessarily opposed to changing the BH system some, but I don't want it to be like the other game I played where it becomes so pointless it's not worth doing.

@ACLucius: I apologize for getting the time frame wrong, I was tired last night when I posted and misread that part.

I also like my sister's apprentice idea they could have someone say level 80+ apprentice someone lower perhaps with some kind of reward, not necessarily exp, but something useful though.

As for having something to do at level 100, I plan to help lower levels and aid the faction, with stuff, and running fbs which I adore doing. so I don't think I'll be board.

@Eoria: I like this, you make very good points^^

SilverCleric - Lost City

@ ACLucius: I like you idea of making FBs / BHs more challenging, but in the long run it doesn't seem worth changing. ijs

But I have my own ideas of how to make BHs/FBs for challenging. (I'll tell you later on)


@RedsRose, Michael_dark, and Quilue: +5 With most of your posts. (I didn't read all of them)

I agree with most of the post you made since now it is to easy to lvl with no challenge at all,
its all just oracle/Hyper/BH to a high lvl with no effort, and the people who lvl that way have
no clue how to play their class and make failed squads. Only if players take their time with with lvling a little bit and get to know more about their class and the instances they can or cant do so they can think of ways to survive if something go's wrong or be prepared if something bad happens during different situations.

To bad nothing will change in PWI. b:surrender


As for my "idea" to make FBs/BHs more challenging I think Devs should add different types of traps in instances and I think instances should be 2-3 times larger than before.

For example: Add more hands, Make bridges that if you step on the wrong panel you die. and make trap rooms, where you need to fight your way out. But those are only examples.


Also I would like for FBs to be bigger and every time you go in a instance for a FB/BH the bosses will be in random spots though out the FB to make it harder to find the boss.


But all of these are just ideas of what I think would be better for PWI and to make the game more fun. b:victory



~SilverCleric~ b:cool

Michael_Dark - Lost City

RedsRose - Lost City wrote: »

^ Amen to that.

Really it is sad...Farming and TW then more farming then maybe PvP for 5 minutes then Farming then TW then stand in Arch and duel to test combo's or genies skills then Farm then afk then setup shop then Farm....

People do not realize it then get to 100 and RageQuit b:chuckle


I remember when +5 Gear with Flawless shards was OP b:cry

That's about all there is to do, oh, and level up alts.

Yeah, +5 gear used to be so pro. Now it's not even factor.

Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »

You realize the problem with your post? Since everyone speeds through the game, making friends that farm with you is close to impossible. It means that even if you would like to play the like you describe, you can't.

The problem with my post? Apparently there is none because you just reiterated my point.

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

The problem with my post? Apparently there is none because you just reiterated my point.

I had a feeling that you suggested us to play the game like you said in your post.

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »

I had a feeling that you suggested us to play the game like you said in your post.

I wasn't really telling anyone how to play, only pointing out the shortcomings of speed leveling your main for your first time in the game.

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

All of you whining about how these people don't know how to do so-and-so dungeon because all they know is BH, did you consider that it's likely their first time doing it or even their first time with a certain boss? You need to teach them. Then they can teach others. For example, a friend of mine showed me how to kill Mystrealm (Illusion Lord or something on here?), the final boss of TT 3-3. After that, I showed others how to kill him. The same thing occurred with pretty much the whole of squad mode of Lunar Glade.

The problem isn't having to teach people new things, it's having to teach them things they should already know at a given level.

Take for instance the lvl 100 Barb I took to GV for their 2nd Map culti. They hadn't even done GV before, I ended up having to lure, having to manage aggro and have to play BM at the same time while the barb sat there single attacking mobs in tiger form cause he didn't have the gear, the charm or the skills to even lure. I'm sorry, a barb by lvl 100 should know how to run a basic Rebirth squad.

Or hearing about 10x running people's FBs, getting the boss orders wrong, not getting all the mobs... I mean, come on, you're lvl 100 and you don't know how to run a FB51 and get all quest mobs in one run? Seriously.

Or people who run people's FBs like BH runs because they don't know any better? First, it's kind of rude to a tabber to make them wait while half the party ports out to turn in a BH, and doing their BH out of order.

You can make all the excuses you want, people get to 100 these days without knowing simple basics. Sure, I'd expect ot have to teach new players how to run a 3-3 or a Nirvana, but having to tell them that their constant use or lack of using specific needed skills has to change? Lvl 100 archers who don't even have lvl 10 sharptooth, lvl 100 barbs that don't have lvl 10 HP buff or other skills?

Come on. At lvl 100 you should have most of your 89 skills and at least a few of your 92 skills.

A friend was asked by a lvl 96 barb "how do I refine?" I mean come on. b:surrender

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

And speaking from experience, most of those that run BH do know what they're doing by the time they start BH51.

Of course you think that. You're part of the new group of users that we're discussing... Even a butter knife is considered sharp when you compare it against a bunch of spoons.

BTW, new Lunar is easy mode. A squad of low 8x shouldn't have any problem with it. b:bye

Eoria - Harshlands

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

The problem isn't having to teach people new things, it's having to teach them things they should already know at a given level.

Take for instance the lvl 100 Barb I took to GV for their 2nd Map culti. They hadn't even done GV before, I ended up having to lure, having to manage aggro and have to play BM at the same time while the barb sat there single attacking mobs in tiger form cause he didn't have the gear, the charm or the skills to even lure. I'm sorry, a barb by lvl 100 should know how to run a basic Rebirth squad.

I do not expect barbs or anyone to know how to run a full GV by 100. That is ridiculous. Honestly, if he didn't have the charm and said he didn't know how to run it, you should have told him to get a charm and teach him or just found another barb if you weren't in the mood to teach.

Or hearing about 10x running people's FBs, getting the boss orders wrong, not getting all the mobs... I mean, come on, you're lvl 100 and you don't know how to run a FB51 and get all quest mobs in one run? Seriously.

Or people who run people's FBs like BH runs because they don't know any better? First, it's kind of rude to a tabber to make them wait while half the party ports out to turn in a BH, and doing their BH out of order.

Actually, this brings up one of my only problems with BH and that's having days where the bosses are in reverse order. Like, instead of a normal Fush->Rank->Wyvern, we get Wyvern->Rank->Fush. It's utterly stupid.

You can make all the excuses you want, people get to 100 these days without knowing simple basics. Sure, I'd expect ot have to teach new players how to run a 3-3 or a Nirvana, but having to tell them that their constant use or lack of using specific needed skills has to change? Lvl 100 archers who don't even have lvl 10 sharptooth, lvl 100 barbs that don't have lvl 10 HP buff or other skills?

I have been in several parties on the other version where I've had to tell others to use a certain skill (especially when it comes to venos about using amplify and debuff because they figure they're mage venos, not fox form ones and thus don't need fox form skills). It isn't anything new so I don't know why you're acting like it is.

You either tell them to start using that certain skill, go level it, or kick them if it's party-endangering. This goes for BHs as well. Most BH parties would kick and find another cleric if they found out their current cleric didn't have ironheart or purify or something. How would you expect these people to even get through BH like that unless they're extremely lucky.

This whole people not knowing how to play thing is not to be chalked up to BH. It's to be chalked up to more people = more chances to come into contact with idiots.

Of course you think that. You're part of the new group of users that we're discussing... Even a butter knife is considered sharp when you compare it against a bunch of spoons.

BTW, new Lunar is easy mode. A squad of low 8x shouldn't have any problem with it.

I've been playing PW since May 2008. I have a level 99 veno with second angel and a level 100 wizard with third devil. I do believe I am not new. New to this version, maybe. But I am not new to the game at all. Maybe I just have a high tolerance for bull****, but most of the parties I've been in have been decent with a few exceptions.

Also, nice to hear about new Lunar. The old one took four-six hours to get through to the final boss each full run I did with competent players with one special exception.

ACLucius - Archosaur

Sheikah - Raging Tide wrote: »

You misunderstand me as well though. I never said you were closed minded or that you thought your opinion was 100% right. I never said it nor implied it. But, the point your missing is from what I've seen most people don't think its too hard in fact most people are grateful for bounty hunter and feel just as much if not more of an accomplishment now than they did before bounty hunter because it was so hard to see end-game content.

And to be honest I don't see where anyone has attacked you, (though my sis bella I don't know, she hasn't had sleep and has a bit of a temper^^') they have brought up points of why they disagree with you had flaws in your system, etc. But that's all I've seen (and bringing up flaws in it is part of critiquing because if you don't know whats wrong with it you can't know how to improve it).

And I disagree with you and I stated why as well as pointed out where I think there are flaws with your idea. I also never said I was right and you were wrong all I did was disagree with the BH system needing changed and I have that right. What I meant by that last statement was that you are so bent on that the system needs changed that your ignoring the fact that most people like it as is. You want to change something that a lot of people think isn't broken and thereby shouldn't be fixed.

And the game bella mentioned that had a similar system they claimed the same thing "people lvl too fast now that we have such and such" "no one knows what their doing", etc
Problem is once they got what they wanted and the systems got the changes people thought it needed people thought it was too much and the whole thing was no longer worth using (and there was still just as many noobs). And I can see your idea or possibly any change to the BH system leading to the same thing.

I will also note with BH as is I don't lvl my chars anywhere near as fast as you. Also, not everyone uses BH and even the ones that do most of the time know how to play. Lvling to fast does not cause noobs because even before BH you still had them. And that is the point I think your missing. That fast lvling does not cause noobs, noobs cause them selves through unwillingness to learn.

And I can't find anyway to critique your system because as I said BH in my opinion is fine as is, and I can't see any improvement to it needed and even if I did not the ones your proposing. As I said I can't lvl all that fast with or without BH so I don't see where you think everyone lvls super fast from it. As the exp doesn't amount to that much all ready.

But, if I can think of any improvements i'll let you know.

P.S all I wanted was for you to see the consequences of any possible changes both good and bad. Also, I said you seemed to be tailoring it to your play style and abilities simply from how you turned down the peoples opinions stating BH is fine.

Also, if you really want to prevent noobs then we need some kind of training or apprentice system where higher more experienced players train the newer ones because not everyone catches on quickly. There are probably many noobs who don't even know what BH is let alone able to lvl fast from it.

Edit: I thought of some ideas as to changes for BH if you feel it really needs any (I'm also including why I think some of the current ideas won't work, as well as down sides to my ideas given)

1. you can decrease the reward and the difficulty of BH-draw back: it could make BH extremely routine to the point people give up on doing it all together

2.You can increase the difficulty and the reward (the increase in reward could be either items, coins or exp)-draw back: People could still not do it simply because its too hard

3.Keep exp the same but make BH less frequent-drawback:

4.Decrease exp and also make it less frequent still-drawback:

5.Make it start no earlier than 45-50ish and make it so only a certain lvl range can help (i.e no lvl 80+ helping on certain BH's)-drawback:

6.combine some or all of above-draw back:

7.Make people go through some kind of char specific training ground before they can participate in BH or any instance-Draw Back:

That's all I can think of, also as to the idea of decreasing the reward AND increasing the difficulty that wouldn't work I don't think because people could give up on doing BH all together depending on how the rewards were decreased.

You probably won't like this post but I can tell you aren't open to the truth.

I'd say that pretty much does say that I am closed minded. If I weren't, or didn't appear to be so to you, then I would obviously be "open to the truth" which I obviously am. However, seeing as you weren't around for long before the BH system came in, based on you saying you've been here a little over a year, you haven't seen the decline which others of us have. You can only speak from your experience, I understand that and do not begrudge you such. However, people who have been around for a long time have seen the decline in player skill levels.

However, I'll be fair. Take the average BH51 run as an example. In total, it gives 250k exp for all three parts. Now, the run itself can take anywhere from 30 minutes (if everyone stacks quests) to 1 hour, more if the squad does poorly or there is excessive AFKing. So, you could earn 250k exp in 1 hour compared to how much in a zhen party in the same time space? Now, before you jump on your high horse (I know I sound like an **** saying this, but I'm not intending it as such) and say "but just cause you had to go through it the hard way doesn't mean we should," just hear it out. I don't care what I had to do in the past to level, that is irrelevant. What is relevant though is that this means the person who wants to grind can't level as fast.

I'm not saying cut BH down to being useless, I'm saying put it on par with grinding, except with a little more exp. I want BH to still be worth doing, because I like it personally. I just don't think it needs to give so much exp for such a simple task. Therefore, it should have an increased difficulty and a decreased exp gain. It doesn't need to be an insane amount, but a person who grinds should be able to level as quickly as a person who does BH.

Yulk - Heavens Tear wrote: »

whoa, terrible idea. Yes, BH's difficulty level is easier than wicked pirates. But what can a level 45 squishy class do against Rankar? Especially as a cleric, b:surrender . Props for you encouraging more of a challenge, but people don't even accept lower than that person with the FB tab. Don't go for a disaster of squad either.

Bounty hunter quests should be removed IMHO. Its like beating up a blind man or a handicapped person.

Like I suggested before level 40-48, 49-58, 59-68, 69-78, 79-88, 89-98, 99 and 100 should be in their own FBs and level restricted. Which will force people to learn how to play instead of just auto attacking their way at the boss.

You can just auto attack and use a few IHs, thats how easy BH is

Yulk, you're very infamous on these forums for poor posts. BH isn't meant to be tabbed, so this also helps solve that with a staggered level system. Most won't be able to tab their BH because a few of the players will most likely be below the level for it. That also incorporates your idea of having FB's level restricted, without it actually affecting the FB's. I'm quite sure players do more BH's than FB's at this point on average, so it only makes sense that if you have to limit one of them, limit BH.

FB's are an important source of Rep gain for players, and that is why they allow higher levels to do them. Take that away, you just took away the average player's primary source of Rep for reaching Rank VIII.

What can a squishy class, such as an Assassin do on Rank and Wyvern? Use a bow? All the other squishy classes by this time have at least a few skills maxed to keep them at enough of a distance to attack without taking too much damage from AoE's. However, it keeps players from having an easy time in BH.

Also, getting rid of BH is a bad idea as well. It is a great addition to this game, it just didn't have enough thought put into it. I respect you have your own opinion, but you are one of the people who are just too new to this game and too inexperienced to really provide a lot of substance to this discussion. Stay and post if you like, but remember there are still a lot of players who have been around longer than you and say the BH system should stay, just not the way it is, while others would keep it the same.

LeLelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Change the BH? Seriously?

You have no idea what it is that you are asking for, do you?

The cat is out of the bag. Remove leveling ability of BH and it gets replaced by a cash shop item. Probably will be able to purchase exp directly.

Level 100 will be attainable by those who can spend 3 figures per month on the game.

Level 102 + is reserved for those who can spend 4 figures per month on the game.

Is this what you want?

Thanks for the suggestion.

I've seen some stupid posts, but yours still doesn't beat Lingzi's complaints about the demon spark nerf for stealth.

People reached 100+ long before BH and Oracles were common, it's not impossible. However, if someone wants to pay real money for them, let them. They are actually paying for something with real money, they deserve to get it. You though, have just made one of the worst puzzles of logic in a post that I have ever seen. Congrats! b:victory

I'd respond to several other people, but right now I think it's better to just let this continue to unfold to see if any results actually come about. So far, I have seen more discussion on why BH is bad or good rather than ways to improve it. If you think it is good, fine, make suggestions you think would enhance it more. If you think it is bad, make suggestions on how it could change. I'm sure there is a compromise somewhere in this mess which everyone can agree on, but first it requires many suggestions on what to change and what to add/delete from the BH as it is now.

To those who have made suggestions, thank you. I have considered some of them myself, and I realize my personality makes me want what is probably too difficult for many. This is exactly why I wanted to throw this out there and find out what should be changed and/or added to this idea or to just change the current BH system as it is. Before I start making changes to the OP though, I want to see agreements on what suggestions are good, or at least suggestions which collaborate. So, like I said, please make some suggestions for me, and whether I agree with them or not is not going to affect if I take them in, it will be the reaction of the community to the suggestions that will. Basically, if I don't like it, but many others do, tough **** for me, it's going to get added.

Yulk - Heavens Tear

Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »

You realize the problem with your post? Since everyone speeds through the game, making friends that farm with you is close to impossible. It means that even if you would like to play the like you describe, you can't.

that is because they are more interested in leveling? I have some friends that are doing BHs rather than farming. I am for removing BHs completely. But I have a huge feeling that BH easy leveling is some secret for PWI to make money because you gain gears from cash shop. It won't matter to fail players as long as they cash shop. I am playing the game at my own pace, classic way. Which is by grinding and questing.

Most people are doing them for leveling fast. They don't care about challenge making that stupid excuse "useless PVE," and "PVE is no challenge" because they are too busy killing lower leveled things with genies. They want to level fast, then PVP. Where people only have a say as a level 100 when they say that they are against BHs, same mind game. I am against BHs by far, and I will love to see them removed as soon as possible. But if the devs are secretly making money out of BHs even though it looks free. People will be poor and forced to charge their credit cards because of them going in lower leveled instances instead of their own. It is really their own fault for leveling too quick instead of taking the chance of playing the game

And @ OP, again, why would a level 45 should be killing Rankar? Sure it might be done, but its so rare for them to beat rankar. That is asking for a death wish, and most people that help the tabbers in FBs to stay back. Rankar does AOE that seem far enough too, I hope you know that. 49 is fine, but lower than that is just insane. And I agree that tabs should allow any level to go in instances... So can't argue with higher levels needing rep and exp from FBs

ACLucius - Archosaur

Yulk - Heavens Tear wrote: »

that is because they are more interested in leveling? I have some friends that are doing BHs rather than farming. I am for removing BHs completely. But I have a huge feeling that BH easy leveling is some secret for PWI to make money because you gain gears from cash shop. It won't matter to fail players as long as they cash shop. I am playing the game at my own pace, classic way. Which is by grinding and questing.

Most people are doing them for leveling fast. They don't care about challenge making that stupid excuse "useless PVE," and "PVE is no challenge" because they are too busy killing lower leveled things with genies. They want to level fast, then PVP. Where people only have a say as a level 100 when they say that they are against BHs, same mind game. I am against BHs by far, and I will love to see them removed as soon as possible. But if the devs are secretly making money out of BHs even though it looks free. People will be poor and forced to charge their credit cards because of them going in lower leveled instances instead of their own. It is really their own fault for leveling too quick instead of taking the chance of playing the game

And @ OP, again, why would a level 45 should be killing Rankar? Sure it might be done, but its so rare for them to beat rankar. That is asking for a death wish, and most people that help the tabbers in FBs to stay back. Rankar does AOE that seem far enough too, I hope you know that. 49 is fine, but lower than that is just insane. And I agree that tabs should allow any level to go in instances... So can't argue with higher levels needing rep and exp from FBs

Yes, he has long range, I know that. Like I said though, players who are at their max range will suffer less damage than those up close. This is why the only class which should have any difficulty at level 45 with him is an Assassin, however even an Assassin can use a bow to decrease the damage done. Normally a 45 wouldn't kill him, but that is part of what produces the difficulty. Believe it or not, 4 levels do not make that much of a difference in terms of damage taken and damage dealt, unless those 4 levels results in a weapon change.

Eoria - Harshlands

Blah...all this talk about making it harder for the lower levels. Lets make it harder for those of you who are 90+.

90-99 BH suggestion:

TT 2-3 Ancient Evil
TT 3-2 Steelation, Dark Colluseast, Twilight Emperor, and Twilight Minister
fb89 Heaven and Hell trophy mode
fb99 Heaven and Hell final bosses
First two maps of old Lunar
GV stage 5

100+ BH suggestion:

TT 3-3 Illusion Lord
fb99 Heaven trophy mode (I'm not going to subject anyone to fb99 Hell trophy mode...it's too evil)
old Lunar trophy mode
GV full run
Harpy Wraith

Obviously, you wouldn't need to pay the entry fee to trophy mode as long as everyone in squad has the BH quest.

Seriously...the above is basically what you're asking for if you think a bunch of green level 45s should go do bh51. They haven't even had their fb51 by that time.

Of course if you really want to do that, we can always split BH into normal mode and hard mode with normal mode being the same as it is now and hard mode having the reward be more exp than if you did normal mode.

Edit~ These suggestions do not include Nirvana or Warsong simply because I am not familiar with them yet.