BH revision (rough draft)

Sheikah - Raging Tide wrote: »

I've been playing since before BH (for over a year or so) and I like the bounty hunter system the way it is. Working harder doesn't make something an accomplishment, doing something ones self is an accomplishment but that doesn't mean the task has to be hard. As long as you take pride in what your doing and the skills that you've earned thats an accomplishment regardless of difficulty.

Also, the "old ways" aren't always best, people used to wash clothes with rocks in the creek and hand-washer/dryers do you want to go back to that? After all it makes the task harder so its more of an "accomplishment", right? So by your logic it must be better. So why do we wash our clothes in a washing machine, pfft such easyness should be outlawed.

People use to grow their food themselves and harvest food entirely by hand. Goodness each individual family grew their own food! You want to go back to that? After all just going to the super market or a fast food place for a bite to eat ain't hard or much of an accomplishment. Guess we need to go back to the old ways there too? Then everyone will have even LESS time for mmos!

Besides going into human nature for a sec no one is going to want to do a ton of work for practically zero reward. Why? Because people like to be rewarded for the effort they put in, that EQUALS the effort they put in not under.

Also, some people like extreme challenge but most don't. Simply, because most people don't think spending an eternity in an mmo just to lvl is an accomplishment. After all it don't pay the bills does it? It don't wash my clothes does it? Don't get me a degree does it? No. So, why do I want to take even MORE time away from REAL-life accomplishments to attain ones that can be gone with one power outage? Does it really make me a better player? a better person? Does it really make me want to love my character enough to WANT to know how to play it right, because lvling is so hard? No.


Also, going back to the washing machine thing how would you like if your grandma or something looked at you or your parents using a washing machine to wash clothes and said "I didn't have that, I had to wash my clothes by hand. I had to work to have clothes to wear. If you want to amount to anything dear you should do it by hand! After all its so much harder then using that silly machine!"



In conclusion no one is going to want your system. The only ones who will want it will be fanatics with no life that either 1. like extreme challenge or 2. have no real life accomplishments to speak of and NEED virtual ones to feel like their worth something.
I will also note not every one is good at mmos or games in general but they don't want to be excluded. They have every right to play and enjoy a good game just as much as the next person. Your system excludes people with real lives and those who aren't good at mmos and games, as well as none-cashshoppers and that just ain't fair.


You probably won't like this post but I can tell you aren't open to the truth. You think your right and your way is better even though it will result in no one ever again using the BH system. And to be blunt any one who doesn't like the BH system because "people lvl to fast" or "because we didn't have it in closed beta" is just jealous either that or aren't thinking over the consequences of such changes.


Ok last thing: I respect your a opinion but I don't think your thinking this entirely through. From want I can tell your looking at this in terms of YOUR play-style and abilities not the average person who also like you was here before BH. And anyone who doesn't know their char because of BH or doesn't know how to play by 40-60ish lacks common sense and or skill and making things harder won't give them either of those (not everyone can be good at this game, some can put in just as much or more effort than you and still have trouble).

Yep, I'm closed minded, that is exactly why I said "critique this please, say how it can be improved, give suggestions and ideas." I'm guessing you didn't read my posts very well, as you don't seem to understand I don't think what I have in my OP is the absolute right. I said in it that it needs a lot of work, that it needs changes and improvements. In fact, I even said I was posting here instead of suggestions because I want opinions on this and suggestions on how to improve it. So far, I have seen a very few posts that did anything but either state the obvious about it, or just flat out attack me and misunderstand me in the process.

If I wanted this to fit my play style, it would go "give me unlimited BH's in all different dungeons," because I have grown tired of grinding after all my time on this game. I level very slowly and leisurely because I just like doing instances over and over. I don't level nearly as fast as many others. In fact, I can't even remember how many days I missed BH on my Assassin during 7x just because I liked doing TT. If you want to grind, go grind. You want to do instances all day, find me on Arch and I'll be more than happy to accompany you. I'm not doing this for my own benefit, or else I would say we need more exp from BH. When I see Clerics though who think purify is a waste because "that icon just keeps coming back, so there is no point to it," then I know that something is wrong. This is happening because people level too quickly.

I'm also not saying to reduce the BH rewards down to nil. Make them worth the effort I say, and if nothing else give extra to it. 25% though at 69? That is just excessive. Making it harder though and level them a bit slower, that will teach them how to play. Like I said, I can go in and solo my BH59 on Glut and Drake with my Cleric only. I'll also get 20% of what I need from just those as well. With wines, that means in about 30 minutes tops, I'll get nearly 300k exp with little effort. Compare that to Oracles if you want, but Oracles you have to pay for one way or another. Pop a few Concentrate Orbs though, and I get it from BH pretty much for free.

So, this time when you respond, do me a personal favor and make some suggestions on how to improve the idea overall instead of just saying "you're wrong, I'm right, goodbye."

And sorry Kupuntu, but I'm inclined to agree with Sheikah. We do use our experience from real life when we talk about this game. If we only ever used experience from it, I would never feel inclined to increase the difficulty of BH. I personally have always liked a challenge, both in games and real life. It makes everything more worthwhile to me if it is harder to do. That's not because of my experience on this game, it's just how I like everything in general.

And before anyone thinks it, no I am not trying to force everything to fit what I want. I honestly have seen a decline, like Micheal, in the quality of players, and it has happened since the implementation of the BH system. I regard it much like the Nien event, a very good idea that didn't have as much thought put into it as I wish it would have. However, I'd rather not turn this into a Nien thread.

In any case, I am off to sleep. I do hope that tomorrow I can come in here and find some suggestions for improving this. I don't want a thread I created with good intentions to sink to a flame wars thread with nothing to gain. At the very least there can be some improvements made, whether they involve including more of the current BH system or doing a complete overhaul.

Sheikah - Raging Tide wrote: »

You misunderstand me as well though. I never said you were closed minded or that you thought your opinion was 100% right. I never said it nor implied it. But, the point your missing is from what I've seen most people don't think its too hard in fact most people are grateful for bounty hunter and feel just as much if not more of an accomplishment now than they did before bounty hunter because it was so hard to see end-game content.

And to be honest I don't see where anyone has attacked you, (though my sis bella I don't know, she hasn't had sleep and has a bit of a temper^^') they have brought up points of why they disagree with you had flaws in your system, etc. But that's all I've seen (and bringing up flaws in it is part of critiquing because if you don't know whats wrong with it you can't know how to improve it).

And I disagree with you and I stated why as well as pointed out where I think there are flaws with your idea. I also never said I was right and you were wrong all I did was disagree with the BH system needing changed and I have that right. What I meant by that last statement was that you are so bent on that the system needs changed that your ignoring the fact that most people like it as is. You want to change something that a lot of people think isn't broken and thereby shouldn't be fixed.

And the game bella mentioned that had a similar system they claimed the same thing "people lvl too fast now that we have such and such" "no one knows what their doing", etc
Problem is once they got what they wanted and the systems got the changes people thought it needed people thought it was too much and the whole thing was no longer worth using (and there was still just as many noobs). And I can see your idea or possibly any change to the BH system leading to the same thing.

I will also note with BH as is I don't lvl my chars anywhere near as fast as you. Also, not everyone uses BH and even the ones that do most of the time know how to play. Lvling to fast does not cause noobs because even before BH you still had them. And that is the point I think your missing. That fast lvling does not cause noobs, noobs cause them selves through unwillingness to learn.

And I can't find anyway to critique your system because as I said BH in my opinion is fine as is, and I can't see any improvement to it needed and even if I did not the ones your proposing. As I said I can't lvl all that fast with or without BH so I don't see where you think everyone lvls super fast from it. As the exp doesn't amount to that much all ready.

But, if I can think of any improvements i'll let you know.

P.S all I wanted was for you to see the consequences of any possible changes both good and bad. Also, I said you seemed to be tailoring it to your play style and abilities simply from how you turned down the peoples opinions stating BH is fine.

Also, if you really want to prevent noobs then we need some kind of training or apprentice system where higher more experienced players train the newer ones because not everyone catches on quickly. There are probably many noobs who don't even know what BH is let alone able to lvl fast from it.

Edit: I thought of some ideas as to changes for BH if you feel it really needs any (I'm also including why I think some of the current ideas won't work, as well as down sides to my ideas given)

1. you can decrease the reward and the difficulty of BH-draw back: it could make BH extremely routine to the point people give up on doing it all together

2.You can increase the difficulty and the reward (the increase in reward could be either items, coins or exp)-draw back: People could still not do it simply because its too hard

3.Keep exp the same but make BH less frequent-drawback:

4.Decrease exp and also make it less frequent still-drawback:

5.Make it start no earlier than 45-50ish and make it so only a certain lvl range can help (i.e no lvl 80+ helping on certain BH's)-drawback:

6.combine some or all of above-draw back:

7.Make people go through some kind of char specific training ground before they can participate in BH or any instance-Draw Back:

That's all I can think of, also as to the idea of decreasing the reward AND increasing the difficulty that wouldn't work I don't think because people could give up on doing BH all together depending on how the rewards were decreased.

You probably won't like this post but I can tell you aren't open to the truth.

I'd say that pretty much does say that I am closed minded. If I weren't, or didn't appear to be so to you, then I would obviously be "open to the truth" which I obviously am. However, seeing as you weren't around for long before the BH system came in, based on you saying you've been here a little over a year, you haven't seen the decline which others of us have. You can only speak from your experience, I understand that and do not begrudge you such. However, people who have been around for a long time have seen the decline in player skill levels.

However, I'll be fair. Take the average BH51 run as an example. In total, it gives 250k exp for all three parts. Now, the run itself can take anywhere from 30 minutes (if everyone stacks quests) to 1 hour, more if the squad does poorly or there is excessive AFKing. So, you could earn 250k exp in 1 hour compared to how much in a zhen party in the same time space? Now, before you jump on your high horse (I know I sound like an **** saying this, but I'm not intending it as such) and say "but just cause you had to go through it the hard way doesn't mean we should," just hear it out. I don't care what I had to do in the past to level, that is irrelevant. What is relevant though is that this means the person who wants to grind can't level as fast.

I'm not saying cut BH down to being useless, I'm saying put it on par with grinding, except with a little more exp. I want BH to still be worth doing, because I like it personally. I just don't think it needs to give so much exp for such a simple task. Therefore, it should have an increased difficulty and a decreased exp gain. It doesn't need to be an insane amount, but a person who grinds should be able to level as quickly as a person who does BH.

Yulk - Heavens Tear wrote: »

whoa, terrible idea. Yes, BH's difficulty level is easier than wicked pirates. But what can a level 45 squishy class do against Rankar? Especially as a cleric, b:surrender . Props for you encouraging more of a challenge, but people don't even accept lower than that person with the FB tab. Don't go for a disaster of squad either.

Bounty hunter quests should be removed IMHO. Its like beating up a blind man or a handicapped person.

Like I suggested before level 40-48, 49-58, 59-68, 69-78, 79-88, 89-98, 99 and 100 should be in their own FBs and level restricted. Which will force people to learn how to play instead of just auto attacking their way at the boss.

You can just auto attack and use a few IHs, thats how easy BH is

Yulk, you're very infamous on these forums for poor posts. BH isn't meant to be tabbed, so this also helps solve that with a staggered level system. Most won't be able to tab their BH because a few of the players will most likely be below the level for it. That also incorporates your idea of having FB's level restricted, without it actually affecting the FB's. I'm quite sure players do more BH's than FB's at this point on average, so it only makes sense that if you have to limit one of them, limit BH.

FB's are an important source of Rep gain for players, and that is why they allow higher levels to do them. Take that away, you just took away the average player's primary source of Rep for reaching Rank VIII.

What can a squishy class, such as an Assassin do on Rank and Wyvern? Use a bow? All the other squishy classes by this time have at least a few skills maxed to keep them at enough of a distance to attack without taking too much damage from AoE's. However, it keeps players from having an easy time in BH.

Also, getting rid of BH is a bad idea as well. It is a great addition to this game, it just didn't have enough thought put into it. I respect you have your own opinion, but you are one of the people who are just too new to this game and too inexperienced to really provide a lot of substance to this discussion. Stay and post if you like, but remember there are still a lot of players who have been around longer than you and say the BH system should stay, just not the way it is, while others would keep it the same.

LeLelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Change the BH? Seriously?

You have no idea what it is that you are asking for, do you?

The cat is out of the bag. Remove leveling ability of BH and it gets replaced by a cash shop item. Probably will be able to purchase exp directly.

Level 100 will be attainable by those who can spend 3 figures per month on the game.

Level 102 + is reserved for those who can spend 4 figures per month on the game.

Is this what you want?

Thanks for the suggestion.

I've seen some stupid posts, but yours still doesn't beat Lingzi's complaints about the demon spark nerf for stealth.

People reached 100+ long before BH and Oracles were common, it's not impossible. However, if someone wants to pay real money for them, let them. They are actually paying for something with real money, they deserve to get it. You though, have just made one of the worst puzzles of logic in a post that I have ever seen. Congrats! b:victory

I'd respond to several other people, but right now I think it's better to just let this continue to unfold to see if any results actually come about. So far, I have seen more discussion on why BH is bad or good rather than ways to improve it. If you think it is good, fine, make suggestions you think would enhance it more. If you think it is bad, make suggestions on how it could change. I'm sure there is a compromise somewhere in this mess which everyone can agree on, but first it requires many suggestions on what to change and what to add/delete from the BH as it is now.

To those who have made suggestions, thank you. I have considered some of them myself, and I realize my personality makes me want what is probably too difficult for many. This is exactly why I wanted to throw this out there and find out what should be changed and/or added to this idea or to just change the current BH system as it is. Before I start making changes to the OP though, I want to see agreements on what suggestions are good, or at least suggestions which collaborate. So, like I said, please make some suggestions for me, and whether I agree with them or not is not going to affect if I take them in, it will be the reaction of the community to the suggestions that will. Basically, if I don't like it, but many others do, tough **** for me, it's going to get added.

Yulk - Heavens Tear wrote: »

that is because they are more interested in leveling? I have some friends that are doing BHs rather than farming. I am for removing BHs completely. But I have a huge feeling that BH easy leveling is some secret for PWI to make money because you gain gears from cash shop. It won't matter to fail players as long as they cash shop. I am playing the game at my own pace, classic way. Which is by grinding and questing.

Most people are doing them for leveling fast. They don't care about challenge making that stupid excuse "useless PVE," and "PVE is no challenge" because they are too busy killing lower leveled things with genies. They want to level fast, then PVP. Where people only have a say as a level 100 when they say that they are against BHs, same mind game. I am against BHs by far, and I will love to see them removed as soon as possible. But if the devs are secretly making money out of BHs even though it looks free. People will be poor and forced to charge their credit cards because of them going in lower leveled instances instead of their own. It is really their own fault for leveling too quick instead of taking the chance of playing the game

And @ OP, again, why would a level 45 should be killing Rankar? Sure it might be done, but its so rare for them to beat rankar. That is asking for a death wish, and most people that help the tabbers in FBs to stay back. Rankar does AOE that seem far enough too, I hope you know that. 49 is fine, but lower than that is just insane. And I agree that tabs should allow any level to go in instances... So can't argue with higher levels needing rep and exp from FBs

Yes, he has long range, I know that. Like I said though, players who are at their max range will suffer less damage than those up close. This is why the only class which should have any difficulty at level 45 with him is an Assassin, however even an Assassin can use a bow to decrease the damage done. Normally a 45 wouldn't kill him, but that is part of what produces the difficulty. Believe it or not, 4 levels do not make that much of a difference in terms of damage taken and damage dealt, unless those 4 levels results in a weapon change.