BH revision (rough draft)

ACLucius - Archosaur · July 2010

Edit: Finished finally, now critique at your will.

A work in progress. I am still trying to find the best way to make Bounty hunter work well with this game, keeping the good parts of it and replacing the bad. I've been saying on these forums for a while that I've been working on it, but frankly after this long (partially due to laziness), I cannot think of what else should be added to it. Therefore, I ask the community to review and critique it. Obviously, some things will need to be changed in it, more will need to be added, and overall it is probably not event 50% complete. However, I think that it is important that the community have some say in this before I place it in the suggestions forum (Edit: just noticed I accidently posted this in the suggestions forum, so I suppose the best thing to do is just edit this down once a general consensus is reached on it).

I will especially be looking for help from some of the older members, as well as the higher levels. If you have been here for 3 months and think you know what is best, do us all a favor and leave now. Yes, I know my join date shows March 2010, but I've been here since Semptember 2008. Don't try to say I shouldn't be one to critique, chances are I have been around longer than many on these forums.

Now, note that the point of this suggested revision is to increase the difficulty of the BH, making it so that players will have a challenging experience to increase their skill within their class. It is generally accepted that most players are leveling too quickly with little challenge to their play, causing a decrease in the overall skill of the community (though there are exceptions to this). Keep in mind, this rough draft is meant to be improved to give a suggestion to fix this problem. So, don't say the bosses should be easier ones, they need to be harder.

Now, with that said, please read (if you can) this wall of text and leave your comments. Avoid flaming if you can. (I don't mind so much if you try to flame me, I'll have fun with it. Just don't do it to others)

Bounty Hunter Revision

Exp decreased for BH I and BH II

BH III gives a piece of gear of equal/lower level within the same level range or mirage stones (varies with BH tier, taking suggestions
(Level 65 may receive a level 60 chest, but not any lower or higher)

Gear can be 3*, or legendary mold
Mirage=75%
3* gear=20%
Legend=5%

BH III will take place in a dungeon 1 tier higher than the group's level tier (e.g 55-64 would have a BH III in TT 1-2 or FB69

BH requires bosses in dungeons of similar level (will be explained further down)

BH tiers go from level x5-x4 (e.g. 55-64 would have the same BH that day)

BH bosses may be in different dungeons or out in the world itself
(E.g. BH for levels 55-64 could have BH I in FB59, BH II in TT 1-1, and BH III as Greedy Bloodclaw

BH quests taking place inside an FB may not be wined

BH, Like Rebirth, must be activated with the squad already formed, each member having a "BH Token"

BH token will have a number associated with it (55-64 would be BH Token II). This will be received via the Headhunter NPC

All members must have the same BH token (to prevent higher levels soloing/helping in the quest.

Quests cannot be completed with a member of any other BH tier in the squad

Players who are within the level range but do not have a token (a level 60 Cleric helping in a BH tier II) may be added after the quest has been taken.

BH tiers are as follows:

BH tier I- levels 45-54
BH tier II- levels 55-64
BH tier III- levels 65-74
BH tier IV- levels 75-84
BH tier V- levels 85-94
BH tier VI- levels 95-104
(BH for 105 not included for now)

BH tier I (45-54) bosses for BH I and BH II are:

Fushma
Rankar
Wyvern
General Feng

BH III bosses are:

Ofotis
Raving Drake Brute
Zimo
Qianji
Gluttonix
Chintien: Chronol

BH tier II (55-64) bosses for BH I and BH II are as follows:

Ofotis
Raving Drake Brute
Zimo
Qianji
Gluttonix
Chintien: Chronol
Lord of Percussion: Chronol
Vipenalt: Chronol
Soulbanisher: Chronol

BH III bosses are:

Resentful Pyrosteosis
Damned Gaurnob
Cenequus Polearm
Chintien: Dimensic
Lord of Percussion: Dimensic
Vipenalt: Dimensic
Soulbanisher: Dimensic

These lists are just example. I'm not going to claim to be an expert, but Polearm might be too difficult for a group of level 55-64 players. However, the point is that for a much more challenging boss, you get a chance at a good reward. However, you can just as well guess what bosses will be for the higher tier BH's. Still, suggest bosses you think should or shouldn't be included in these lists. However, FB bosses of the average level are a must.

I hope you made it through, so go and tear this apart and put it back together, I'd like to have a finished copy to put in the Suggestion Box.

ACLucius - Archosaur · July 2010

Using for more space.

ACLucius - Archosaur · July 2010

Saved for space needed.

DrHook - Lost City · July 2010

For a daily I think your % on drops is a bit high there would be a huge influx of cheap/good equips (might make farming even more pointless), but I do like BH X3 in higher lvl instance+increased difficulty.
I think many of us older players can agree that the BH thing needs to be reworked.

If everyone lvls in instance then on ones grinding/questing on world map,if no ones on world map pvp becomes scarce, and I play for pvp QQ.

Edit: Also whats up with the join date? I started in early 09.

Airyll - Dreamweaver · July 2010

You might want to clarify this is BH before the 10x BH, by the way, because at 10x the reward system changes anyway.

Also, a piece of gear for BH III? You know I might not necessarily like the BH system but I can get mirages out the **** without the help of a 'BH III that would give mirages' system and I certainly don't need any kind of gear. Somebody didn't consider potential mold drops in their post.

Michael_Dark - Lost City · July 2010

There should only be 1 BH per day.

It should not be stackable.

It should be an instance at your level.

It should not be able to be wined.

ACLucius - Archosaur · July 2010

DrHook - Lost City wrote: »

For a daily I think your % on drops is a bit high there would be a huge influx of cheap/good equips (might make farming even more pointless), but I do like BH X3 in higher lvl instance+increased difficulty.
I think many of us older players can agree that the BH thing needs to be reworked.

If everyone lvls in instance then on ones grinding/questing on world map,if no ones on world map pvp becomes scarce, and I play for pvp QQ.

Edit: Also whats up with the join date? I started in early 09.

For the gear, the point is you are doing a harder boss in a dungeon higher than your level. Obviously, this means for things like TT 1-2, there would have be exceptions on allowing players below the requirement in for specifically that BH. This isn't perfect yet, so it still has a lot of changes to go through.

The join date though is because like I said, I don't want someone who has been here for 3 months coming in and saying "the system is better the way it is now" because obviously, it's not.

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You might want to clarify this is BH before the 10x BH, by the way, because at 10x the reward system changes anyway.

Also, a piece of gear for BH III? You know I might not necessarily like the BH system but I can get mirages out the **** without the help of a 'BH III that would give mirages' system and I certainly don't need any kind of gear. Somebody didn't consider potential mold drops in their post.

Yes, like I said this needs revision, and I am aware of the reward changes for BH100. However, the point of this is to increase the difficulty of the system while decreasing the reward.

For the gear, I am using this so that it encourages players to try higher level instances with a guarantee of some kind of reward. No, it's not the best, but it gives a chance at a mold as well, to give some incentive. More than likely, squads will be unable to complete the BH III or just not want to, so it will not cause many problems at all.

Just as well, I'm considering the potential for mold drops, but like I said, it's for players to try a higher level instance, with a much better chance at a mold coming from it.

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

There should only be 1 BH per day.

It should not be stackable.

It should be an instance at your level.

It should not be able to be wined.

The only thing here that I didn't address while retyping the post was your idea of 1 BH per day. I like the idea of fighting 2-3 bosses for the exp you would get from just 1 BH. Not to mention it also gives incentive to fight in higher level instances.

However, I think the system will work well with keeping it from being stacked aside from the first two, as I do not think very many will want to do the third.

DrHook - Lost City · July 2010

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

There should only be 1 BH per day.

It should not be stackable.

It should be an instance at your level.

It should not be able to be wined.

Well this will never happen since, noobish quick lvling = more high lvl noobs = higher demand for high lvl gear = $$$ for PWE.

That being said I wish it was that simple.

Khanderin - Lost City · July 2010

I think BHs are fine the way they are. It appeals to me more because part of the fun of MMORPGS is achieving goals. It feels good when you get to level 80, or 90 or 100 and it feels good when you get that piece of equipment you've been saving for.

I've played other MMOs where once you get to about 50% of the level cap, it's becomes a massive grind and only gets exponentially worse. That's pretty much the model of most MMOs out there except for a select few and the game just becomes a daily chore. Play 8 hours and get 10%. There's just no fun in that.

The thing I love about PWI is there's no real grinding if you don't want to. It's all just instance runs and as repetitive as they can get, you're squading with different people every day and anything can happen.

To be honest, the time it takes to level up these days is "reasonable". Once you get into the 80s and 90s, a daily BHx3 is only about 5-10%. It takes about 3-6 months to get to 100 without excessive CSing and I think that's fair. I hate games where you're stuck at 7x or 8x for months and then ultimately quit because it's just too boring and end up never having experienced 90% of the game content because all the cool stuff you can only do at endgame.

The people who are saying reduce exp are just old school players who are sore. Their mentality is "we didn't have BHs and we suffered through months of grind so you should too." Just get over it. If you like to spend hours grinding, go play another game. Don't force others to suffer with you just because you think spend longer grinding = more pro.

It's a game. It only takes a week to learn what your skills do and how to grind and the rest of the time you're just repeatedly doing the same thing over and over. There are plenty of people who just do their BHs and quests and know exactly how to play their characters well. The people who you think are fail because of leveling too fast from BHs are just fail in general no matter how many more BHs you make them do. You should know exactly what you're doing in instance runs after doing it no more than 5 times. Hell, I did 1 frost run and I learnt exactly what I had to do from that, even what the cleric/barb/bm were supposed to do as well just by watching and listening to what was said.

As for making BHs harder, there is already plenty of fail in BHs already. Making it harder would just make it all the more frustrating for those who don't suck. It can already take 2-3 hours to do a BH with a fail squad and some of us just don't have that sort of time to be wasting on a daily basis.

DrHook - Lost City · July 2010

There are fail BHs mostly because of people not knowing how to play there class.

KareszPsych - Heavens Tear · July 2010

I agree that the current BH system could use some changes, I don't like this idea however.

With your suggestion, there would be no point in doing BH 3. How many 55-64 squads do you think would be able to kill Polearm? I'm not saying it's impossible, but people in that level range have problems killing Wyvern, I can't imagine the amount of party wipes that would happen on Pole. Also the amount of time it would take for a squad like that to reach him in an unwined instance...and do all that for some mirages, or some random 3 star gear, or a small chance of getting a mold? Chances are, the time spent, the exp lost through deaths, the repair and potion/charm costs would be much greater than the reward.

I know you want to make it challenging, but if you make a challenge like that then you better give proper rewards for it.

ACLucius - Archosaur · July 2010

Khanderin - Lost City wrote: »

I think BHs are fine the way they are. It appeals to me more because part of the fun of MMORPGS is achieving goals. It feels good when you get to level 80, or 90 or 100 and it feels good when you get that piece of equipment you've been saving for.

I've played other MMOs where once you get to about 50% of the level cap, it's becomes a massive grind and only gets exponentially worse. That's pretty much the model of most MMOs out there except for a select few and the game just becomes a daily chore. Play 8 hours and get 10%. There's just no fun in that.

The thing I love about PWI is there's no real grinding if you don't want to. It's all just instance runs and as repetitive as they can get, you're squading with different people every day and anything can happen.

To be honest, the time it takes to level up these days is "reasonable". Once you get into the 80s and 90s, a daily BHx3 is only about 5-10%. It takes about 3-6 months to get to 100 without excessive CSing and I think that's fair. I hate games where you're stuck at 7x or 8x for months and then ultimately quit because it's just too boring and end up never having experienced 90% of the game content because all the cool stuff you can only do at endgame.

The people who are saying reduce exp are just old school players who are sore. Their mentality is "we didn't have BHs and we suffered through months of grind so you should too." Just get over it. If you like to spend hours grinding, go play another game. Don't force others to suffer with you just because you think spend longer grinding = more pro.

It's a game. It only takes a week to learn what your skills do and how to grind and the rest of the time you're just repeatedly doing the same thing over and over. There are plenty of people who just do their BHs and quests and know exactly how to play their characters well. The people who you think are fail because of leveling too fast from BHs are just fail in general no matter how many more BHs you make them do. You should know exactly what you're doing in instance runs after doing it no more than 5 times. Hell, I did 1 frost run and I learnt exactly what I had to do from that, even what the cleric/barb/bm were supposed to do as well just by watching and listening to what was said.

As for making BHs harder, there is already plenty of fail in BHs already. Making it harder would just make it all the more frustrating for those who don't suck. It can already take 2-3 hours to do a BH with a fail squad and some of us just don't have that sort of time to be wasting on a daily basis.

I was thinking about addressing this, but then I thought "Micheal can tear this apart better than I can."

I will say though, this is what I meant, DrHook, when I gave that paragraph about join dates.

KareszPsych - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I agree that the current BH system could use some changes, I don't like this idea however.

With your suggestion, there would be no point in doing BH 3. How many 55-64 squads do you think would be able to kill Polearm? I'm not saying it's impossible, but people in that level range have problems killing Wyvern, I can't imagine the amount of party wipes that would happen on Pole. Also the amount of time it would take for a squad like that to reach him in an unwined instance...and do all that for some mirages, or some random 3 star gear, or a small chance of getting a mold? Chances are, the time spent, the exp lost through deaths, the repair and potion/charm costs would be much greater than the reward.

I know you want to make it challenging, but if you make a challenge like that then you better give proper rewards for it.

As I was saying, that is the point of the BH III, to be something extremely challenging with a potential reward. Now, should a good amount of people in this discussion say to increase the rewards or the chances for them, I will. However, this is a rough draft and I want to get all opinions I can before making changes. I figure about 10 pages of decent critique will be enough to start making changes. Until I see enough good suggestions and agreements on them, I won't make changes on it. I'm not just discussing this with everyone. I'm hoping everyone will discuss it with each other, as well as with me.

BellaKitsune - Raging Tide · July 2010

Ok, it's almost 5am and I can't get to sleep and your post has irritated me so prepare for bluntness, just a warning.

I've been playing this game for over a year and I think this is idiocy, it's already hard enough as it is, and it only gets worst the higher level you get. Decreasing the exp is foolishness. I came to PWI from a game (which will not be named out of respect to PWI's ToS) where people begged for a decrease in exp for something similar to this and they did it, and now leveling in that game takes forever at high levels even if you play 24~7. And those same people who had wanted it to be changed in the first place were even more upset when they changed it, but of course none of them thought about how it would be if they had changed it, and now the feature in that game is practically worthless. And almost no one uses it now because everyone thinks it's pointless, because it has very little reward for all the effort.

And for doing it with instances your level, this was put in place so people could squad together and get it done, most people can't do a instance at their level. Say you had a level 39ish squad, good luck trying to tank farren at that level.

And decreasing the rewards will almost guarantee you can't find a squad, because no one is going to go through all that work for such a small reward. Also you should keep in mind too that there's a 4 hour time limit now in instances.

Khanderin - Lost City · July 2010

ACLucius - Archosaur wrote: »

I was thinking about addressing this, but then I thought "Micheal can tear this apart better than I can."

I will say though, this is what I meant, DrHook, when I gave that paragraph about join dates.

Well this is just an alt I'm currently playing so join date doesn't mean much. But I've only been playing since the start of the year so maybe that's still considered new to you. However, I don't think that makes my arguments any less valid. So please, respond and tell me how you can tear what I've said apart.

@DrHook, as I said, they don't know how to play their class because they haven't made the effort to learn or are just bad at these sorts of games in general. I learn everything I need to know about a new instance after 2-3 runs tops. I won't have learnt anything new or how to play my class better if you make me do the same BH 100x more than I need to.

Most dungeons/bosses people do during their BHs are the same anyway. You need 1 run to learn the layout and what attacks the boss does (i.e. if you're a cleric in BH69, you need to know you have to aoe heal occasionally and purify the tank in addition to healing the tank). The rest is just The barb holding aggro, the DDs controlling aggro and the cleric healing. If you haven't learnt what your class is supposed to do by the time you're level 6x (after having gone through BH39), then you never will.

Kupuntu - Sanctuary · July 2010

I think it would be better to keep the old system and get three BHs but you could take those at the same time and you could also have TT BHs at lower level, as well as Gamma and Delta before BH100. What squad would clear the whole FB69 and then kill Pole?

Airyll - Dreamweaver · July 2010

Okay so let's look at this differently.

Until BH100, you stay with the three BH every day EXP and spirit reward system. Now at level 9x, while it's a lot of EXP compared to the old style ways of levelling, BH isn't all that much experience. You want to nerf what is, generally, not all so great in the first place.

Your idea for BHIII is also beyond unreasonable when you consider the fact that at level 7x, 8x and 9x people will be using TT gear (or legendary gear). Why is this an issue? Why would people want to do BHIII, an instance that you would make above their own level, when they're probably going to get mirages or maybe a crappy mold? That's not even a reward. You wouldn't use the mold you got, most likely, it wouldn't sell for very much unless it's particularly rare because BH has flooded the market with molds.

You're wanting people to go and do BHIII for a reward that is not worth the time, the effort and the potential EXP and money loss. This is not "making BH challenging" - this is just "making BH stupid."

It's worrying that you missed these two glaringly obvious points, yet think your system is better. You're asking people to crit you on your work? You're going to hear two things:

1) One BH every day, that does not stack. A sentiment I do agree with, but then again, I've become so used to a crappy BH system anyway I just don't really do BH. Wouldn't bother me.
2) Your rewards mean BH is no longer worth the effort, nobody would bother with it - particularly at high levels - and you don't make it challenging, you just make it unreasonably stupid with silly rewards that nobody would care to get.

You want ten pages of people telling you those two same things before you think your idea needs to be looked at again? Good lord.

ACLucius - Archosaur · July 2010

BellaKitsune - Raging Tide wrote: »

Ok, it's almost 5am and I can't get to sleep and your post has irritated me so prepare for bluntness, just a warning.

I've been playing this game for over a year and I think this is idiocy, it's already hard enough as it is, and it only gets worst the higher level you get. Decreasing the exp is foolishness. I came to PWI from a game (which will not be named out of respect to PWI's ToS) where people begged for a decrease in exp for something similar to this and they did it, and now leveling in that game takes forever at high levels even if you play 24~7. And those same people who had wanted it to be changed in the first place were even more upset when they changed it, but of course none of them thought about how it would be if they had changed it, and now the feature in that game is practically worthless. And almost no one uses it now because everyone thinks it's pointless, because it has very little reward for all the effort.

And for doing it with instances your level, this was put in place so people could squad together and get it done, most people can't do a instance at their level. Say you had a level 39ish squad, good luck trying to tank farren at that level.

And decreasing the rewards will almost guarantee you can't find a squad, because no one is going to go through all that work for such a small reward. Also you should keep in mind too that there's a 4 hour time limit now in instances.

How do you think we did it back when this game was brand new? This is another reason I stated when I came here. When PWI started, we didn't have BH, we had to grind our levels. Yes, it took a few months usually to get to even 60+. We also did our FB's at our own level with a squad our own level. It used to be an accomplishment to say you got your 59 skills. It was considered and achievement to reach Demon/Sage, and if you got to 100, you actually felt like you made a great leap. Levels mean more the harder you have to work for them, and as it is, they are handed out with the current system.

And yes, you can tank Farren at 39 as a Barb. However, if you notice, the BH starts with 51 under the system I've developed. Wyvern is the worry, and I have see Barbs easily tank him. The point of this revision is to increase the overall skill of players by slowing down the progression while increasing the difficulty.

BH's are not hard right now. I completed a BH51 the other day on my Cleric with a squad (all of us mid 6x) in under 30 minutes. This system is not hard, it is very easy. When the Cleric can handle mobs on its own in the dungeon without any help, it's easy. When the Cleric can tank and heal itself on BH bosses (Drake and Gluttonix), it is too easy. Now, I'm not saying take away all the exp and make BH worth less than grinding, although sometimes it can be with a bad squad. However, grinding itself has become useless. 40-60 is a breeze because of the Goshiki quests and BH, and after that, a combination of BH and Crazy Stone make leveling still pretty easy. Once you get to 7x, you have WQ, BH, CS, and then FC at 75+. You are literally rolling in exp, and you think that it isn't too much? I defend BH only up to the point that it teaches squad based play, but this current system is not difficult enough and gives too much exp. 69-70 is 4 BH sets, 2 days of BH and 3-4 hours of zhenning (if that) on those days gets you to 70. That doesn't include your other quests or CS.

I respect that you don't like grinding, I don't much care for it either. However, being able to get to 70 in 6 weeks (because that's at most how long it's taken my Cleric) is not impressive, its sad. I've gotten 4 characters over 60 in just 4 months, and it should not be that easy.

Sorry, but BH in its current system is idiocy, far moreso than this idea for revision.

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Okay so let's look at this differently.

Until BH100, you stay with the three BH every day EXP and spirit reward system. Now at level 9x, while it's a lot of EXP compared to the old style ways of levelling, BH isn't all that much experience. You want to nerf what is, generally, not all so great in the first place.

Your idea for BHIII is also beyond unreasonable when you consider the fact that at level 7x, 8x and 9x people will be using TT gear (or legendary gear). Why is this an issue? Why would people want to do BHIII, an instance that you would make above their own level, when they're probably going to get mirages or maybe a crappy mold? That's not even a reward. You wouldn't use the mold you got, most likely, it wouldn't sell for very much unless it's particularly rare because BH has flooded the market with molds.

You're wanting people to go and do BHIII for a reward that is not worth the time, the effort and the potential EXP and money loss. This is not "making BH challenging" - this is just "making BH stupid."

It's worrying that you missed these two glaringly obvious points, yet think your system is better. You're asking people to crit you on your work? You're going to hear two things:

1) One BH every day, that does not stack. A sentiment I do agree with, but then again, I've become so used to a crappy BH system anyway I just don't really do BH. Wouldn't bother me.
2) Your rewards mean BH is no longer worth the effort, nobody would bother with it - particularly at high levels - and you don't make it challenging, you just make it unreasonably stupid with silly rewards that nobody would care to get.

You want ten pages of people telling you those two same things before you think your idea needs to be looked at again? Good lord.

As I said, I'm open to changing it. However, BH currently is just a laugh through a dungeon to get massive amounts of exp that level you so quickly you don't actually learn. As I said, I'm intending to make the system more challenging while slowing progress, and not even that much. Now, I'm up for changing the reward. For all I care, make it like the packs and give everyone a chance to win a token of best luck, or lunar gear, or rare mounts. However, I put something in there to give an example, and if everyone can come to an agreement on what the rewards should be, I'm happy to change it. However, I do think that a guarantee of something everyone will want will do exactly what we don't want, flood the market.

Every time someone brings up "give us 2x drops," I see the community go in uproar about how it will flood everything on the market and lower the prices of everything. Unless I'm misunderstanding you, you are saying to just go and give them something useful and promise if they do BH III they will get it. The point is to make it a big risk for the reward, but you don't have to do it. Trash the quest, move on, all BH III is for is to give you a better chance for something valuable than it's drop rate by doing something challenging. So, say what you want it to be, if I see a good amount of people agree, I'll put that in there and be happy with it. However, I don't think it should just be a given that you will get something worthwhile by doing something that is supposed to be a challenge. Percussion doesn't always drop his drum, you take that chance going in. This shouldn't be any different.

Yes, as well I am prepared, and came in as such, that people would like say those two things. However, the point is to actually get some good suggestions on what to change and how to make this, as a whole, better. I've already said though that I think having to fight multiple bosses is better than just one per day. And as I said, the rewards are suggestions. If someone would come in and give a better one that many can agree on, all the better. However, your post has done nothing but point out the obvious. So, please provide some actual advice or suggestions that could improve this rather than just ranting on how you don't like it. I didn't come in here saying "this is what I want, what do you think?" I came in saying "here is an idea on how to improve this system, what can I add/delete to make it better?"

So, please address this by explaining how it can be made better, not what it's obvious flaws are.

anwynd · July 2010

Before all this stuff was added i ran into just as much ******* who didnt know how to play their class as i do now. Back then in the old day (lol)only the hardcore people imo (my self included) wouldnt get bored after grinding hours on end & doing other stuff just to get a lvl or 2 in a month its not fun it can begin to feel like a job. Some stuff before they were changed i admit was frickin awsome ,but i like this BH system it may not be perfect but its a hell of alot better then grinding for months on end. Like someone has sayed before if you actually wanted to learn how a class works & what kind of stuff you can do it doesnt take that long. Ive played almost every single class to lvl 70+ most were from grinding my **** off some were from the modern BH system. I wouldnt go purely blaming peoples stupidity on the BH system yea it doesnt exactly help but its mostly the person playing their character that is to lazy to actually learn what their class is actually about & the fun you can have .

That is my opinion b:bye

Kupuntu - Sanctuary · July 2010

ACLucius - Archosaur wrote: »

BH's are not hard right now. I completed a BH51 the other day on my Cleric with a squad (all of us mid 6x) in under 30 minutes. This system is not hard, it is very easy. When the Cleric can handle mobs on its own in the dungeon without any help, it's easy. When the Cleric can tank and heal itself on BH bosses (Drake and Gluttonix), it is too easy. Now, I'm not saying take away all the exp and make BH worth less than grinding, although sometimes it can be with a bad squad. However, grinding itself has become useless. 40-60 is a breeze because of the Goshiki quests and BH, and after that, a combination of BH and Crazy Stone make leveling still pretty easy. Once you get to 7x, you have WQ, BH, CS, and then FC at 75+. You are literally rolling in exp, and you think that it isn't too much? I defend BH only up to the point that it teaches squad based play, but this current system is not difficult enough and gives too much exp. 69-70 is 4 BH sets, 2 days of BH and 3-4 hours of zhenning (if that) on those days gets you to 70. That doesn't include your other quests or CS.

I understand what you mean, but you're making the BHs too hard for the EXP gain. I can tell what I'd suggest:

Levels 40-49: BH 39
Levels 50-59: BH 51, TT1-1
Levels 60-69: BH 59, TT1-3
Levels 70-79: BH 69, 79, TT2-2
Levels 80-89: BH 89, TT3-1
Levels 90-99: BH 99, TT3-3

100+ would be like it is now. As you can see, I removed the BH 29 from the list completely. It could be for levels 30-39, but I don't really know. I also just dropped most of the BHs one tier down.

Other changes are that you can take all the three BHs at the same time and you only get the EXP if you kill all three bosses. The EXP you get is 2/3 of the EXP you get now for a full chain. This way you get less EXP and the BH is more challenging. Also, all the BHs for the day are in the same dungeon. No changing dungeon in the middle of the BH run.

Khanderin - Lost City · July 2010

ACLucius - Archosaur wrote: »

How do you think we did it back when this game was brand new? This is another reason I stated when I came here. When PWI started, we didn't have BH, we had to grind our levels. Yes, it took a few months usually to get to even 60+. We also did our FB's at our own level with a squad our own level. It used to be an accomplishment to say you got your 59 skills. It was considered and achievement to reach Demon/Sage, and if you got to 100, you actually felt like you made a great leap. Levels mean more the harder you have to work for them, and as it is, they are handed out with the current system.

This is exactly the stupid mentality I was talking about. "We had to do it the hard way so I want to make you suffer as well just so it's fair". It's not an achievement. It just means you play more than everyone else. You can still feel accomplished today too but instead of 59 or 90 or whatever, it's 100 and 105. It's exactly the same thing. You can still be the 1st to grind to 105 and feel accomplished. Only difference is, most people can now get to experience endgame content without spending their life on this game.

ACLucius - Archosaur · July 2010

anwynd wrote: »

Before all this stuff was added i ran into just as much ******* who didnt know how to play their class as i do now. Back then in the old day (lol)only the hardcore people imo (my self included) wouldnt get bored after grinding hours on end & doing other stuff just to get a lvl or 2 in a month its not fun it can begin to feel like a job. Some stuff before they were changed i admit was frickin awsome ,but i like this BH system it may not be perfect but its a hell of alot better then grinding for months on end. Like someone has sayed before if you actually wanted to learn how a class works & what kind of stuff you can do it doesnt take that long. Ive played almost every single class to lvl 70+ most were from grinding my **** off some were from the modern BH system. I wouldnt go purely blaming peoples stupidity on the BH system yea it doesnt exactly help but its mostly the person playing their character that is to lazy to actually learn what their class is actually about & the fun you can have .

That is my opinion b:bye

I agree that BH is good, and that's why I made a thread saying "here's an idea to change the system, let's try to make it better" rather than one saying "get rid of this nub system." I've said before on several other threads, I will keep defending BH because it is a good idea. It gives good squad experience players would not normally get till they started TT, the same time I originally started learning it. I wish I had something like BH back then to teach me before hand what to do in a squad.

As well, I also never really enjoyed grinding, and I still don't. However, I think that people level way too fast in this game. It shouldn't take only 4 months playing at a moderate rate to level 4 characters to 60+.

It's quite simple. This is just an idea, an idea which can and should change. It needs a lot of revision. If this ends up looking more like the current system than it does now, so be it. However, the point of this thread is to come up with a compilation of ideas from the community to improve the BH system, whether it means just increasing the difficulty, decreasing the exp, or giving it an entire makeover with brand new dungeons and bosses for each set of people.

Airyll - Dreamweaver · July 2010

Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »

Also, all the BHs for the day are in the same dungeon. No changing dungeon in the middle of the BH run.

Yes to the Nth power.

Generally, and it's probably safe to say pre-9x, bosses are in the same dungeon and if you stacked your three BHs (something people still don't do and good lord it's annoying) you don't necessarily have to leave the instance. The exceptions for this are places like 39 and 59, where you need to kill the bosses to open the way to the others.

Generally in these instances, boss orders make you leave the instance and force you to resquad so that you can reset the instance and carry on your merry way, particularly 59.

ACLucius - Archosaur · July 2010

Khanderin - Lost City wrote: »

This is exactly the stupid mentality I was talking about. "We had to do it the hard way so I want to make you suffer as well just so it's fair". It's not an achievement. It just means you play more than everyone else. You can still feel accomplished today too but instead of 59 or 90 or whatever, it's 100 and 105. It's exactly the same thing. You can still be the 1st to grind to 105 and feel accomplished. Only difference is, most people can now get to experience endgame content without spending their life on this game.

And you have misunderstood me. I don't want to punish anyone, I don't want people to have to take 9 months to reach 9x. My point was that we did things that you consider now to be impossible. You said that you don't think someone can tank FB39 at 39, I was saying we did just that. If I wanted to punish everyone, I wouldn't 1) defend BH as I have on these forums, and 2) suggest a revision rather than a complete annihilation of this system. I understand, a lot of people don't like or want to grind. However, now grinding isn't even worth the time. I'm saying make it even for everyone who likes to grind and who like to do instances all day. You are saying though "lets make it so people who want to just grind a lot suffer." You are saying the same thing on the opposite spectrum.

So yes, it is an achievement when you reach that high level you have been waiting to get to for 4 months. It's an even bigger accomplishment to reach that nearly max level after 6 months. Look at it though now, I see 2 pages of 100+ on Archosaur's rankings, and it has only been open 4 months. Yeah, we can guess that some of them probably did A LOT of Oracles. Fine, they want to buy their levels with real money, let them spend as much as they want on this game, that's their prerogative and privilege for spending money. That doesn't mean everyone should be reaching 100+ that soon. After you get there, the only thing left is farming for Warsoul, and I doubt most people will do that. My guess is once they reach endgame so soon, they will think, "well, that was interesting, whats the next game I can play."

What I'm trying to say is I don't want to punish anyone. If I were trying to punish people who like to do instances all day, I'd be punishing myself. But this system is just making it too easy for people and it is decreasing the overall skill of players by leveling them too quickly. Keep the BH system, but change it to make it better.

Michael_Dark - Lost City · July 2010

I have a long winded post in me about this subject, however it's late and I don't want to bother with it now.

All the nubs will say how well BH teaches them their class, and of course they're going to think that because to them they have learned the best they can inside a BH, which really isn't all that spectacular. You'll know it when you run in a squad of people who have been playing this game longer to those that earned most of their levels by BH, Oracles or Hypers. On the newer servers, you're not going to notice a difference because all the old-timers who rolled on the new servers as they came out are already way higher level and most likely wouldn't run an instance with the majority of players on that particular server.

Anyway, BH is a cookie cutter EXP quest. The lower level ones are certainly more difficult, but as you get higher they offer little in terms of learning how to play your class to the fullest.

I see this type of 'skilled players' at 10x, barbs not knowing how to rebirth, clerics plume shotting heavies air to grounding, mages using water skills against water mobs, archers spamming stormrage or (pre-89) STA... people mindlessly skill spamming on bosses with no real idea what skills are better suited for others, and generally seeing a much higher level of incompetence at the higher levels than the generation before. However I don't mind, whenever I'm in a party with people like this I feel all the much more pro. Who doesn't like that ego boost. And having a bunch of noob 10x thinking they'll own you in PvP is funny too, even when they have great gear just don't stand a chance.

I'll respond to some of the earlier points, and I know this thread will be 7-10 pages when I get back... oh well, listen to me rant then :P

Khanderin - Lost City wrote: »

Only difference is, most people can now get to experience endgame content without spending their life on this game.

Umm.. you're kidding right? What end-game content? You mean spamming 3-3 and Nirvana hundreds of times over and over and over and over? How many times are you gonna kill that same world boss over and over... That and TW is all that is really left. Enjoy the ride, don't race to the end, cause when you get there you'll be lonely in a crowd of people who have known each other for many months or over a year and get upset when they all say 'who the hell are you' when you think you've hit 100 and pro and looking for a squad and most of these people only invite friends.

Last year, by the time you hit 89, pretty much everyone either knew you or knew of you and knew what to expect. Now there are nameless and faceless 100's running around in **** 9x gear begging for squads and help and not getting it because they don't have any friends who will run with them because they just wanted to hit end-game as fast as they can.

Anyways, whatever. Play the game how you want. If you spend enough cash you might get lucky enough to get in one of the major factions. There isn't really any time for you to waste to actually farm your own gear anymore because players just have to hit 100 as fast as they can and get dejected because nobody will help them farm 3-3 for gold mats or join pickup parties and get nothing and end up quitting because there's not much left for them to actually do. Or make an alt and start all over. b:bye

Airyll - Dreamweaver · July 2010

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

I have a long winded post in me about this subject, however it's late and I don't want to bother with it now.

All the nubs will say how well BH teaches them their class, and of course they're going to think that because to them they have learned the best they can inside a BH, which really isn't all that spectacular. You'll know it when you run in a squad of people who have been playing this game longer to those that earned most of their levels by BH, Oracles or Hypers. On the newer servers, you're not going to notice a difference because all the old-timers who rolled on the new servers as they came out are already way higher level and most likely wouldn't run an instance with the majority of players on that particular server.

Anyway, BH is a cookie cutter EXP quest. The lower level ones are certainly more difficult, but as you get higher they offer little in terms of learning how to play your class to the fullest.

I see this type of 'skilled players' at 10x, barbs not knowing how to rebirth, clerics plume shotting heavies air to grounding, mages using water skills against water mobs, archers spamming stormrage or (pre-89) STA... people mindlessly skill spamming on bosses with no real idea what skills are better suited for others, and generally seeing a much higher level of incompetence at the higher levels than the generation before. However I don't mind, whenever I'm in a party with people like this I feel all the much more pro. Who doesn't like that ego boost. And having a bunch of noob 10x thinking they'll own you in PvP is funny too, even when they have great gear just don't stand a chance.

I'll respond to some of the earlier points, and I know this thread will be 7-10 pages when I get back... oh well, listen to me rant then :P

This. Just this.

BH will only teach you so much. When I see archers spamming skills or claiming that STA is totally useless I know they've only ever done BH, have never bothered to learn what their skills actually do and holy **** Stormrage is a sucky skill and the DoT is worthless so why are you spamming it?

Or perhaps BH on my alt: where I go into a squad with two other venos, am demanded to tank because I have a Herc and am also the only veno using amp on a boss. I would hate to see these BH noobs deal with Ape in 2-x because they wouldn't know how to purge worth a ****.

The clerics who don't purify on Pole and macro their way through it. There are so many kinds of fail players and they do exist because of BH. They exist because BH does not adapt you to situations where you need to know what your skills do and how you should use them in combination, among other things. You can sit here and defend BH all you like, but the point remains that while the EXP is great, it creates a generation of player who spams all the wrong skills, macros their way through life without ever bothering to use something other then that one macro and doesn't know how to do anything but BH.

I would love to do Gamma on my veno. Yet, nobody does RB any more because who needs to when you have BH? And the few who do actually go on RB? They want charmed and experienced people only. It doesn't matter I've done Gamma on my archer, the fact I need to be shown where to start farming is apparently so difficult for these people that I will not be taken to an RB on my veno.
I'd also love to know how many of these Gamma squads fail because archers spam Stormrage or don't STA, clerics macro and forget to BB and barbs think they can tank waves in human form.

-edit- Just to add to this that making BH more difficult by having you do it at lower levels would not rectify a majority of this problem.

Spreading the instances out and including TT in BHs before 100 does seem like a good idea in it's own way, making it slightly more challenging does seem like a good idea in it's own way, and lessening the rewards does seem like a good idea in it's own way.

If you want to slam these things altogether though, it's not going to work. If you make it more challenging, the rewards will probably have to remain the same because people will not work without reward. If you want people to level at less of a rate, you're going to have to keep it at the same level of difficulty while nerfing the reward to something that is still respectable for the 'work' you need to put in.

ACLucius - Archosaur · July 2010

Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »

I understand what you mean, but you're making the BHs too hard for the EXP gain. I can tell what I'd suggest:

Levels 40-49: BH 39
Levels 50-59: BH 51, TT1-1
Levels 60-69: BH 59, TT1-3
Levels 70-79: BH 69, 79, TT2-2
Levels 80-89: BH 89, TT3-1
Levels 90-99: BH 99, TT3-3

100+ would be like it is now. As you can see, I removed the BH 29 from the list completely. It could be for levels 30-39, but I don't really know. I also just dropped most of the BHs one tier down.

Other changes are that you can take all the three BHs at the same time and you only get the EXP if you kill all three bosses. The EXP you get is 2/3 of the EXP you get now for a full chain. This way you get less EXP and the BH is more challenging. Also, all the BHs for the day are in the same dungeon. No changing dungeon in the middle of the BH run.

Part of the reason I had the levels so staggered was because at 55-64, you can find a Cleric with BB to help on TT 1-1 with Percussion. 50-59 would require only a level 59 who has done their culti to do it. Plus, the stagger allows for players to do the FB at their level, making it more challenging.

I also do like the idea of having to take all three BH's and get 2/3's the exp, but if that's the case we might as well just take BH III out and let them do just two. The reason I like having a third BH that doesn't have to be done but can be for a reward is it encourages experimentation and risk. As I said, I'm up for changing the rewards, I'd already guessed they would need to be. I just put what I had in there to give an idea of what to do.

As far as changing instances, I'm not talking about having a BH with Zimo, then with Dimentora, and ending with Polearm. Something spreading across multiple instances would fit more along the lines of Zimo, Chintien: Dimensic, and end with Percussion: Dimensic. Also, note I'm not limiting it to dungeons. Greedy Bloodclaw is a boss down on Shattered Cloud (who is also not a part of the PQ, so it doesn't disturb those doing that) who is fairly easily accessible. Only about a dozen mobs at most surround him, and they are your standard mobs, easy to kill. I don't want people to have to take 3-4 hours to do BH, I think they shouldn't have to take longer than 2, 1 if they go fast. All I'm saying is give them a challenge, decrease the exp earned, and give incentive to kill a harder boss.

BellaKitsune - Raging Tide · July 2010

So really what it comes down to is your just jealous that people have this now and you didn't , that's the same mentality that bought down the feature in the other game. I find your jealousy sad. You should be happy to finely have this feature.

And how it was when it was brand new does NOT mean it was better, they just hadn't put in that feature yet, and so now that they have people like you that get jealous and can't stand that newer players having something you don't. I was here before BH and I'm sorry but I happen to like it the way it is. I do not consider grinding all day a proof of a good player or having level 59 skills a "accomplishment". In my opinion a players attitude and sportsmanship are more of an achievement. When I remember players, it's NOT cause they have certain skills, but for the way they conduct themselves in the game.

And I don't think most people can get that high that fast, I sure didn't, and I don't particularly care much for zenning.

And although I'm not one of them, I know several people who can't play this game for hours on end, do you think their gonna stick around if they have to play for a year or better to get to a high level.

And I have news for you, I been in a lv50ish squad in BH39 and still had squad wipes. And I do not know many players even the ones who are good who are gonna want to do a BH in an instance their level. And almost none of my BH are wined and they take forever.

You say you respect my not wanting to grind but I don't see that.

ACLucius - Archosaur wrote:

How do you think we did it back when this game was brand new? This is another reason I stated when I came here. When PWI started, we didn't have BH, we had to grind our levels. Yes, it took a few months usually to get to even 60+. We also did our FB's at our own level with a squad our own level. It used to be an accomplishment to say you got your 59 skills. It was considered and achievement to reach Demon/Sage, and if you got to 100, you actually felt like you made a great leap. Levels mean more the harder you have to work for them, and as it is, they are handed out with the current system.

This quote sounds like someone whining because they couldn't have something that people can use now. You say you've gotten 4 characters to level 60 in 4 weeks, how do long do you think it'll take for 90 on all 4 of those with the way you want to do it?
The last game I played got totally screwed up because of something like this, and if this feature gets nerfed no one is going to want to use it.

Oh and FIY: If you need to get your sense of accomplishment by playing a game, then you've got some self esteem issues.

Sheikah - Raging Tide · July 2010

ACLucius - Archosaur wrote: »

How do you think we did it back when this game was brand new? This is another reason I stated when I came here. When PWI started, we didn't have BH, we had to grind our levels. Yes, it took a few months usually to get to even 60+. We also did our FB's at our own level with a squad our own level. It used to be an accomplishment to say you got your 59 skills. It was considered and achievement to reach Demon/Sage, and if you got to 100, you actually felt like you made a great leap. Levels mean more the harder you have to work for them, and as it is, they are handed out with the current system.

And yes, you can tank Farren at 39 as a Barb. However, if you notice, the BH starts with 51 under the system I've developed. Wyvern is the worry, and I have see Barbs easily tank him. The point of this revision is to increase the overall skill of players by slowing down the progression while increasing the difficulty.

BH's are not hard right now. I completed a BH51 the other day on my Cleric with a squad (all of us mid 6x) in under 30 minutes. This system is not hard, it is very easy. When the Cleric can handle mobs on its own in the dungeon without any help, it's easy. When the Cleric can tank and heal itself on BH bosses (Drake and Gluttonix), it is too easy. Now, I'm not saying take away all the exp and make BH worth less than grinding, although sometimes it can be with a bad squad. However, grinding itself has become useless. 40-60 is a breeze because of the Goshiki quests and BH, and after that, a combination of BH and Crazy Stone make leveling still pretty easy. Once you get to 7x, you have WQ, BH, CS, and then FC at 75+. You are literally rolling in exp, and you think that it isn't too much? I defend BH only up to the point that it teaches squad based play, but this current system is not difficult enough and gives too much exp. 69-70 is 4 BH sets, 2 days of BH and 3-4 hours of zhenning (if that) on those days gets you to 70. That doesn't include your other quests or CS.

I respect that you don't like grinding, I don't much care for it either. However, being able to get to 70 in 6 weeks (because that's at most how long it's taken my Cleric) is not impressive, its sad. I've gotten 4 characters over 60 in just 4 months, and it should not be that easy.

Sorry, but BH in its current system is idiocy, far moreso than this idea for revision.

I've been playing since before BH (for over a year or so) and I like the bounty hunter system the way it is. Working harder doesn't make something an accomplishment, doing something ones self is an accomplishment but that doesn't mean the task has to be hard. As long as you take pride in what your doing and the skills that you've earned thats an accomplishment regardless of difficulty.

Also, the "old ways" aren't always best, people used to wash clothes with rocks in the creek and hand-washer/dryers do you want to go back to that? After all it makes the task harder so its more of an "accomplishment", right? So by your logic it must be better. So why do we wash our clothes in a washing machine, pfft such easyness should be outlawed.

People use to grow their food themselves and harvest food entirely by hand. Goodness each individual family grew their own food! You want to go back to that? After all just going to the super market or a fast food place for a bite to eat ain't hard or much of an accomplishment. Guess we need to go back to the old ways there too? Then everyone will have even LESS time for mmos!

Besides going into human nature for a sec no one is going to want to do a ton of work for practically zero reward. Why? Because people like to be rewarded for the effort they put in, that EQUALS the effort they put in not under.

Also, some people like extreme challenge but most don't. Simply, because most people don't think spending an eternity in an mmo just to lvl is an accomplishment. After all it don't pay the bills does it? It don't wash my clothes does it? Don't get me a degree does it? No. So, why do I want to take even MORE time away from REAL-life accomplishments to attain ones that can be gone with one power outage? Does it really make me a better player? a better person? Does it really make me want to love my character enough to WANT to know how to play it right, because lvling is so hard? No.

Also, going back to the washing machine thing how would you like if your grandma or something looked at you or your parents using a washing machine to wash clothes and said "I didn't have that, I had to wash my clothes by hand. I had to work to have clothes to wear. If you want to amount to anything dear you should do it by hand! After all its so much harder then using that silly machine!"

In conclusion no one is going to want your system. The only ones who will want it will be fanatics with no life that either 1. like extreme challenge or 2. have no real life accomplishments to speak of and NEED virtual ones to feel like their worth something.
I will also note not every one is good at mmos or games in general but they don't want to be excluded. They have every right to play and enjoy a good game just as much as the next person. Your system excludes people with real lives and those who aren't good at mmos and games, as well as none-cashshoppers and that just ain't fair.

You probably won't like this post but I can tell you aren't open to the truth. You think your right and your way is better even though it will result in no one ever again using the BH system. And to be blunt any one who doesn't like the BH system because "people lvl to fast" or "because we didn't have it in closed beta" is just jealous either that or aren't thinking over the consequences of such changes.

Ok last thing: I respect your a opinion but I don't think your thinking this entirely through. From want I can tell your looking at this in terms of YOUR play-style and abilities not the average person who also like you was here before BH. And anyone who doesn't know their char because of BH or doesn't know how to play by 40-60ish lacks common sense and or skill and making things harder won't give them either of those (not everyone can be good at this game, some can put in just as much or more effort than you and still have trouble).

Kupuntu - Sanctuary · July 2010

Sheikah - Raging Tide wrote: »

You probably won't like this post but I can tell you aren't open to the truth. You think your right and your way is better even though it will result in no one ever again using the BH system. And to be blunt any one who doesn't like the BH system because "people lvl to fast" or "because we didn't have it in closed beta" is just jealous either that or aren't thinking over the consequences of such changes.

I don't like your post either. You should never compare a game to real world, unless you're talking about the economy. And the reason why BH should be changed is because it produces way too many high-level noobs. Read Michael's posts and you'll see what I mean.

ACLucius - Archosaur · July 2010

BellaKitsune - Raging Tide wrote: »

So really what it comes down to is your just jealous that people have this now and you didn't , that's the same mentality that bought down the feature in the other game. I find your jealousy sad. You should be happy to finely have this feature.

And how it was when it was brand new does NOT mean it was better, they just hadn't put in that feature yet, and so now that they have people like you that get jealous and can't stand that newer players having something you don't. I was here before BH and I'm sorry but I happen to like it the way it is. I do not consider grinding all day a proof of a good player or having level 59 skills a "accomplishment". In my opinion a players attitude and sportsmanship are more of an achievement. When I remember players, it's NOT cause they have certain skills, but for the way they conduct themselves in the game.

And I don't think most people can get that high that fast, I sure didn't, and I don't particularly care much for zenning.

And although I'm not one of them, I know several people who can't play this game for hours on end, do you think their gonna stick around if they have to play for a year or better to get to a high level.

And I have news for you, I been in a lv50ish squad in BH39 and still had squad wipes. And I do not know many players even the ones who are good who are gonna want to do a BH in an instance their level. And almost none of my BH are wined and they take forever.

You say you respect my not wanting to grind but I don't see that.

This quote sounds like someone whining because they couldn't have something that people can use now. You say you've gotten 4 characters to level 60 in 4 weeks, how do long do you think it'll take for 90 on all 4 of those with the way you want to do it?
The last game I played got totally screwed up because of something like this, and if this feature gets nerfed no one is going to want to use it.

Oh and FIY: If you need to get your sense of accomplishment by playing a game, then you've got some self esteem issues.

It seems you misunderstand. As I said, I like BH. I actually like the fact that I can do an instance and level through it. I like that the game is focusing more on squad play. However, people just level too fast. I never said we have to go back to the stone age of grinding hours on end for a week just to make one level. I said it should be made more difficult, I said it is too easy. When squads wipe, its because someone, or several people, screwed up because they don't know what to do. Sometimes, it was just a bad draw from the deck and you had a mob sneak up on you. However most of the time that is not the case and it is because people level so quickly they do not learn how to play properly.

Either you are taking everything I said out of context on purpose, or you are just plain not understanding, whether it be my own fault or yours. I'm guessing though it's more on yours since I said I got 4 characters to 60+ in 4 months, not 4 weeks. I did say I got my Cleric to 70+ in 6 weeks, but that certainly can't be confused for 4 characters in 4 weeks.

As for the quote of mine, you have missed the point of it entirely. I was responding that yes it is possible to do all those things people don't think is. Yes, a squad of 39's can do FB39, that is how we did it when the game first started. I'm not complaining, I don't care if we had it harder back then. In fact, I like it being a bit easier. However, this game is too easy, and that's the point.

And FYI, I don't need anything from this game. I play it when I'm not in class, at work, or just doing errands in general. I don't have to get any sense of accomplishment from a game, but it sure is nice to know that you did something few others could. For example, when I first played Resident Evil 4, I somehow managed to beat it on my first time through in under 3 hours. Everyone I knew, including a few friends who work at Gamestop, couldn't and it is nice to know I could. Did I need that? No, the game was fun, I enjoyed it. However, the whole point of having a challenge or setting a goal is to reach some level of accomplishment. Do you not feel such when you get all the answers right on an exam everyone else got a 75% on? Did you not feel it when you graduated from high school? When you got your Associates degree? Bachelor? Doctorate?

If I only got a sense of accomplishment from a game, then I'd have to agree that is pretty damn sad. However, I don't need it. It's still nice to have though isn't it?

Sheikah - Raging Tide · July 2010

Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »

I don't like your post either. You should never compare a game to real world, unless you're talking about the economy. And the reason why BH should be changed is because it produces way too many high-level noobs. Read Michael's posts and you'll see what I mean.

I have read ALL the post's my opinion stands. And I don't really care if you like my post or not it's the truth. And yes you should compare games to rl because that is how people judge the world around them. This game is a persons version of an ideal world it is BASED off of rl therefore rl applies.

And noobs are not created by "fast lvling" people can lvl fast and know what their doing pretty much everyone I have met since BH's creation know what their doing. Noob's are people who don't care to know what their doing. The kind of person that turns in to a noob can do BH (or any instance) over and over and over again and STILL not know what their doing. Why? because they don't really care whether they learn or not or whether their doing it right. I know tons of people that have lvled fast and know what their doing.

I will also note even the original posters thoughts on this subject (whether he realizes it or not) come from rl experience and thought. People develop their understanding from rl, everything you or I think is influenced by rl you can't escape that. If you think for even a sec you can then you have no business discussing this or any thing else.

BH revision (rough draft)

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